Lord Byron was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result June 17, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed

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Archives

Archive 1 - December 2003 - November 2006, including discussions of the name of the page and Byron, use of "Lord Byron," presentation of incest, and presentation of homosexuality

Friends, does anyone know which Greek city called "Polis" Byron have been in? In Cyprus or in Crete? If you know, plz corect the link to Polis in "Byron and the Armenians" section--Armatura 09:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely this refers to Constantinople which is "the City" of the Hellenic world. But I have no proof. I don't know if Byron ever went to Constantinople.Argos'Dad 14:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but nope, it surely was not Istanbul, but a city in Greece. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Armatura (talk • contribs) 22:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

In 1810 Byron & Hobhouse did visit the Dardanelles 'Troy' & Constantinopolis and, imitating Leander, swam across the straits; according to John Cam Hobhouse's diary at http://www.hobby-o.com/smyrna.php M@T arragano 03:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything in here about Mary Ann Chaworth, but I have heard she was an important influence on his life. Should something be added?

85.117.42.52 07:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC) Christopher Michel[reply]

I have now added information about Chaworth.--Gloriamarie (talk) 22:48, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC) "Polis" in Greek means city - it may have been a term to imply any city or town. (Hence the origin of the term politics)[reply]
Constantinople was also called "H Polis" = "The City" - since it was the capital of the Byzantine Empire and thus biggest or most central city of Byzantium. So, it may not be a particular city you are after, but a poetic means to refer to any greek or non greek city. Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the following line : "Byron's influence also extends as far as infamous British singer-songwriter and poet Pete Doherty who has cited Lord Byron as having a significant impact upon his moral philosophy, poetry and lyrics." It is surely a stretch of the imagination to label Doherty (a rock musician who, according to his wiki article, has no listed writings outside his song lyrics) a poet and philosopher, especially when it seems to be only he himself who is claiming this. If he has claimed it, such trivia should appear under the Doherty article (with appropriate citation) and not under Byron. I don't know immediately know who to suggest, but I am sure there are umpteen better-known and more-clearly-influenced parties who can be mentioned to demonstrate Byron's wide influence. Tobermory 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - Doherty is a poet and has had quite a bit of work published esp. in London underground magazine 'Full Moon Empty Sports Bag'. I believe he also attended a school-trip to Russia after winning a poetry competition. No sources at the moment im afraid, but theyre in the biographies. No sure about the philosophical influence..i also dont think he's suitably influenced by B to be in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.98.133 (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article fails GA immediately because it lacks proper citations:

• This article needs inline citations. All disputable claims need to be sourced to reliable sources, in this case most often academic books about Byron. I have added fact tags in many places throughout the article to illustrate what kinds of statements need sources. See WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:ATT for a thorough explanation of citing.
• All quotations must be sourced.

The article has a lot of good information, but its organization and prose could be better. A few sections need to be expanded or condensed, but, overall, this is a good start (the biggest problem is the lack of citations):

• The lead is not a stand-alone summary of the article per WP:LEAD: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources."
• The "Name" section is a bit hard to follow. Try to retain only the essentialy information and to outline it more clearly.

• Wentworth was Lady Byron's eventual title, her surname before marriage had been Milbanke. The Noels had inherited it from the Wentworths in 1745. - I am not sure this is necessary, but if it is, it is odd to end on it because it is out of chronological order.

• The "Early life" section does not flow very well. Try to make the paragraphs more of a coherent whole rather than a list of unrelated statements.
• "Beginning of a poet career" starts awkwardly; the chronology also becomes unclear because some of these texts you have mentioned before. I would refrain from having two sections about the same text within the "Biography" section of the article. Make it as clear as possible when a book was written and published.

• It also introduces the concept of the "Byronic hero" without explaining it at all.

• In the "Political career" section, you list a lot of poems without discussing them at all. To a reader ignorant of Byron, this is not particularly enlightening.

• Note, "The Landlords' Interest" will not be found in any Byron anthology, it is Canto XIV of "The Age Of Bronze" (1823). - This kind of information belongs in a footnote.

• "Affairs and Scandals" section begins awkwardly with "he" - always start a new section with "Byron" to be clear. The last paragraph swerves from topic to topic a lot - it needs better organization. Also, the list of poems is a problem for the ignorant reader.
• In the "Poetic works" section, you say that Don Juan is important, but you don't really explain it is about. Since this is one of Byron's most important works, I would suggest saying a bit more about it.
• Do not list the attributes of the Byronic hero - write them out in prose. You might think about including an example of the Byronic hero from Byron's work to illustrate it. Plenty of such explanations with examples exist in the scholarly literature about Byron.
• In your one-paragraph analysis of Byron's poetry, it is unclear whose claims these are. Because you have no sources, they appear to be yours. You must rely on literary criticism here. An expansion of the discussion of Byron's literary works might not be a bad idea, either.
• I would integrate the "Parthenon marbles" section into the biography section. It would work better there since the section itself is so tiny.
• I would also integrate the material that is currently in the "Character" section into the appropriate sections of the "Biography." They are oddly separated here.
• The "Lasting influence" section is woefully short on Byron's literary influence, what might be considered the most important aspect of his influence. It should also discuss how Byron is often considered the first "celebrity" - this information is available in most scholarly biographies of Byron.
• The "Fictional depictions" subsection is a list in prose. Try to codense this material into a few paragraphs, selecting only the most important representations. If there is a lot of information, you might think about creating a "Byron in popular culture" article (see Moby-Dick in popular culture for an example.) All of this material needs to be sourced as well.
• The "External links" need to be pruned.
• Many of the sentences in the article are awkwardly phrased:

• Ex: "Hours of Idleness", which collected many of the previous poems, along with more recent compositions, was the culminating book. (Also any book title should be italicized.)
• Ex: While some authors resented being satirized in its first edition, over time in subsequent editions it became a mark of prestige to be the target of Byron's cool pen. - What exactly does "cool pen" mean here?
• Ex: Ultimately he was to live abroad to escape the censure of British society, where men could be forgiven for sexual misbehaviour only up to a point, one which Byron far surpassed.
• Ex: In 1816 Byron visited Saint Lazarus Island in Venice where he acquainted himself with Armenian culture by the Mekhitarist Order. - Doesn't make sense.
• Ex: His profound lyricism and ideological courage has inspired many Armenian poets, the likes of Fr. Ghevond Alishan, Smbat Shahaziz, Hovhannes Tumanyan, Ruben Vorberian and others. - What is "ideological courage"?
• Ex: Byron employed a fire-master to prepare artillery and took part of the rebel army under his own command and pay, despite his lack of military experience, but before the expedition could sail, on 15 February 1824, he fell ill, and the usual remedy of bleeding weakened him further. - Too much for one sentence. Awadewit | talk 19:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have done a lot of these and added a lot more information. --Gloriamarie (talk) 22:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of his swim across the Dardanelles?

So why isn't this as George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron; as it used to be? Using George Byron, without the middle name, is unusual. I propose to move it back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Far too many peer articles take out the middle name for no good reason. john k 18:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The move was apparently made by Phoe nearly a year ago with no discussion. john k 18:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be bold, then. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Wikipedia's style is to include honorific titles in the person's name (unless it's the best way to disambugiate the title)

George Gordon Byron is enough to uniquely identify the person. I think the article should be moved to that name, and leave the "6th Baron Byron" in bold as the full person's name in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph. 24.83.195.130 09:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He is almost universally known to history and art as 'Lord Byron'. Why should the wikipedia set up its own claims as to proper modes of address? Is it because most of the contributors are American and have a cultural POV about the use of titles? Colin4C 18:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Americans call him "Lord Byron" too and aren't obsessed with putting titles on everyone English. I'd actually assumed every British person being called by long titles was some kind of Britishism.--T. Anthony (talk) 03:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a claim as to "proper" address - and I can do without the personal attack on Americans. It is general Wikipedia policy (including in UK articles, and I believe in non-English language wikis as well) that honorifics are not used in article titles. Better to just use the name. For instance, "Muhammad" instead of "The Prophet Muhammad", "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" instead of "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith", "Ivan IV of Russia" instead of "Ivan the Terrible", "Mao Zedong" instead of "Chairman Mao" - heck, even "Palpatine" instead of "Emperor Palpatine".

Now substantive titles are ok, since it's essentially part of the name in that case. "Charles, Prince of Wales" is used, for instance. In my opinion, this article really should be under "George Gordon, Lord Byron". You may wish to check the guidelines and see if you feel my interpretation is correct, as there's ambiguity in the guide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29

Vonspringer (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is good where it is. It is consistent with many other articles. --WPLanders (talk) 04:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, for obscure landowners. It should of course be moved to "Lord Byron", the name by which he is normally referred to. Johnbod (talk) 13:33, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He was not known as Lord Byron. He was known as Byron in present day. Back then, he was only the sixth Lord Byron, and not even the most famous as a Lord Byron. Furthermore, his mother, Lady Byron, would be more acceptable under the title because she was never known based on familiar terms by most people. The page should stay to conform with Wikipedia titling standards. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolute nonsense. He was known as Lord Byron in his day - though adressed and referred to as Byron by his friends, an entirely different matter - and has continued to be so ever since. The one name that has never been used is "George Gordon Byron". Johnbod (talk) 15:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't want to fight about this, but "He was known as Lord Byron in his day" is incorrect. Why? Because he was rarely called by that title except as a child, and most people knew his Uncle far more, especially with all of the major scandals. By the time Byron had his own scandals, he was known by his poetic signature, which was not "Lord" Byron. As you can see from the early life page, I am doing an overhaul of the biography, and I know a lot about this subject area. Rarely, rarely, do any reviewers or critics ever address him as Lord Byron, especially with the possible confusion that comes from addressing his mother as Lady Byron. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:42, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to go into it either, but whatever his contemporaries called him - and I don't accept your statements (what do Jane Austen and her characters call him?) - he was been universally referred to for over a century as "Lord Byron", "Byron" for short (just like "William Wordsworth", "Wordsworth" for short), and virtually never as "George Byron" or "George Gordon Byron". This is like insisting on using the legal names of Michelangelo, Raphael or Caravaggio. Johnbod (talk) 16:43, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You keep claiming such things without proof. You lack consensus, nor any real justification to make him the "Lord Byron", when this is perfectly suitable. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:10, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:COMMONNAME is the justification. Neither of us can be bothered to produce references - your claims are just as much assertions as mine. Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You lack any consensus, nor can you say that Lord Byron is favored over Byron, George Gordon Byron, or the many other just as popular names. Furthermore, if you actually read the guideline, you would see "Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". With 5 other Lord Byrons, this instantly fails. You wont receive any further response from me, because this has become utterly silly and pointless. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there should be some mention in the lede that, at least in parts of the world, this man is known only as "Lord Byron". I myself had to come here in order to confirm this fact. -- Rmrfstar (talk) 23:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the time of Byron's death, Greece was still using the Julian (Old Style) calendar, which at that time had a 12-day discrepancy from the Gregorian (New Style). Is "19 April" shown as it was in Greece, ie. an Old-Style date that would be equivalent to 1 May in the rest of Europe; or did he die on 7 April under the Old-Style calendar and it has already been converted to 19 April in the Gregorian? Whichever is the case, I think we should make a note of it for inquisitive people like me. -- JackofOz 04:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that the time discrepancy was 13 days. Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It became 13 days from February 1900, but was 12 days in the 19th century, 11 days in the 18th, and 10 days in the 17th and back to 1582. In the Julian calendar every 4th year is a Leap Year, but in the Gregorian Calendar some 4th years are not - 1700, 1800 and 1900, for example. 28 February 1900 (Gregorian) was followed by 1 March, but 28 February 1900 (Julian) was followed by 29 February. See Gregorian calendar for lots more details. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Name section, which leads off the body of the article is confused. First rule of biography, do *not* discuss characters not yet introduced. WHO are these people? We're treated to an exhaustive enumeration of his names in regard to people in his ancestral table, whom we don't yet know. Either the name section should *follow* where they are all introduced in his bio, or it should be a footnote to the appropriate bio area. Wjhonson (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have now fixed this in the article, so you know who some of these people are when you reach that point.--Gloriamarie (talk) 22:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed this irrelevancy. Show me *any* anciently descended family, still in power in England in the 18th century who did *not* descend from Edward 3. I don't think you can, so this quip doesn't add anything, and it makes it seem like this claim is unusual or notable, when it's not. Wjhonson (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed this:

"Another popular work of Byron, The Travels of the Sergical Monster, follows the sequel of his college Marry Shelley's Frankenstein ..."

Apart from being bad English, I believe it's hogwash though it might be inspired by some fictional treatment like Bride of Frankenstein.

Agger (talk) 18:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Byron was clearly bisexual. At least for the first 36 years of his life. I say add him to the group. Thoughts? -FM (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)-FM[reply]

Absolutely. Also a section is needed on his homosexual exploits, with Nicolo Giraud and others. Haiduc (talk) 16:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should be : Nicolas Giraud, Eustache Georgiou, Loukas and Lord Clare must be quoted somewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.79.29.5 (talk) 21:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be some dispute as to whether Crompton is a reliable source. This is the reference in question:

Louis Crompton, "Don Leon, Byron, and Homosexual Law Reform" in Stuart Kellogg, Ed. Literary Visions of Homosexuality. p.53

Please use this section to reach consensus on the appropriateness of using this source to support the claim that Byron's relationship with John Edleston was a love affair. Thank you. Nandesuka (talk) 14:19, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from the question of reliability of the source, there's also the problem that, once again, the cited source doesn't actually say what Haiduc is claiming. When I look at page 53 of "Literary Visions of Homosexuality", I don't see anything about Eldeston at all. He is discussed on page 58:

[Byron] hears John Edlestone singing in the choir, and friendship ripens into love....He begins to question traditional standards -- after all, he is not about to ruin a virgin, betray a husband, or beget a bastard...

(emphasis added). In short, I don't read Crompton as providing any support for the statement that Byron and Edleston had an active sexual relationship, which is what the term "love affair" implies. Crompton does claim that Byron had sexual longings, which is, given that we're talking about Byron, no great surprise. It may be that there are other sources that support this assertion, or that Crompton says it explicitly elsewhere in his work. But he doesn't say it where the citation claims. So completely apart from the question of whether Crompton is a reliable source, the citation is completely misleading, and can't be used until it is corrected. Nandesuka (talk) 14:30, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that a source is unreliable does not equal "questions of unreliability." If someone wants to claim that a source is unreliable then they have top make a case for it. Until then the material stays, as it is not removed on anyone's say-so. At any rate, the book has been cited over fifty times in the literature, so the whole "challenge" seems little more than a sham, until it is substantiated.

Apart from this inappropriate interference, Nandesuka is once again indulging in ad hominem attacks against me. The page number was a typo, it should have been 54 instead of 53. My apologies. Next time perhaps you will not presume to make a federal case out of something like this. Haiduc (talk) 16:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for providing the correct citation. That's also a nice trick, by the way: "Nandesuka is unjustifiably attacking me for getting this citation wrong, when in fact, I only got the citation wrong." I should definitely work on that sense of shamelessness.

I see that Crompton does indeed briefly refer to this as a "love affair", although his longer description on page 58 doesn't quite support that characterization. Hoeper describes this as a mischaracterization promoted by Marchand:

Here Byron was proudly asserting a Platonic love that was fairly common and respected between schoolboys in his day. It is akin to the "bosom friendships" sought out by the young heroine in the "Anne of Green Gables" series for young girls. Marchand's readers are encouraged to presume that only some particularly base imbroglio in the relationship with Edleston could have led Byron to quit England--though early in A Portrait Marchand acknowledges that the relationship with Edleston always remained a pure and ideal "romantic attachment"....So far as I can determine Marchand's charges about the homosexual advances of Lord Grey and Edleston are the flimsiest of speculations--not demonstrably false, but not particularly likely to be true either.

Do we have any other sources describing the Edleston relationship beyond Crompton, Hoeper, and Marchand? Surveying the reliable sources will give us a better idea of how to properly describe this for our readers. Nandesuka (talk) 13:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you get that text from? Talk about shamelessness. Haiduc (talk) 02:53, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I got it from here. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you haven't read it. It's only cited nine times in the article we're discussing. Nandesuka (talk) 03:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the citation. I see you have carte blanche to be rude. I guess it comes with administrator credentials. Haiduc (talk) 03:40, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, seeing as I haven't used any of my administrator credentials in my interactions with you. As far as that's concerned, I'm just another editor -- one who is shocked and a bit frustrated by your pattern of mis-citing and mischaracterizing sources. Nandesuka (talk) 05:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your undocumented personal opinion about my edits does not excuse your aggressive and sarcastic tone. In the future please restrict yourself to discussing the topic at hand, and keep your suppositions about my activities to yourself. Haiduc (talk) 10:28, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Returning to the topic at hand, does anyone else have citatons to the effect that Byron and Edleston were lovers? Given that one of the major sources for this article refers to such theories as based on "the flimsiest of speculations," we want to make sure our sourcing for such a statement is solid. Nandesuka (talk) 12:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have (temporarily) removed this sentence:

The extent of Byron's joy over the birth has been construed as evidence that he was Medora's father, a theory reinforced by the many passionate poems he wrote to Augusta.

I have no doubt that this sentence, as such, is true, but its crimes are many: if it "has been construed", who has it been construed by? The theory "is reinforced?" Rather, we should actively identify a reliable source that construes it thus, and who believes the theory is reinforced by the poems, and then we should include a citation to them. I don't have time to do this right now. Anyone else want to take a crack at this? Nandesuka (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fiona MacCarthy examines the Medora question carefully, and concludes that Byron himself was never convinced that she was his child. (see 'Byron: Life and Legend' pp 214-215). Re Edelston, by the way, there are multiple references: I am surprised that this excellent source has not been relied on more in this article.Domnique 17:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domniqencore (talk • contribs)

As I indicated above, Fiona MacCarthy’s excellent biography (2002) provides a valuable source on Byron and his complicated life. Looking at the record of sourcing of this WP article and related discussion, my impression is that that there has been perhaps too much reliance on press articles and reviews, and too little on direct examination of the scholarly references available. For those who have a genuine interest in the subject, acquisition of material through libraries or by direct purchase offers the best understanding of the controversies involved and the possibility of arriving at a balanced judgment.

MacCarthy is in an unrivalled position as a Byron biographer: this is made clear in the introduction to the book for which she had - for the first time - unrestricted access to primary sources at the John Murray publishing house near Piccadilly, London. She pays tribute to the last biography published by John Murray: Leslie Marchand’s pioneering 3-volume life published in 1957 (Professor Marchand greatly encouraged the author in the early stages of the book - he did not live to see its completion). Since then, a great deal of new material has emerged relating to his various female liaisons, and crucially the dramatic discovery in 1976 – in a vault in Barclay’s Bank – of a cache of manuscripts and letters from Byron’s friend, Scrope Davies, ‘altering former views of his male relationships’. MacCarthy’s treatment of the ‘balance’ between his male and female relationships is carefully considered, and I believe, reliable. Certainly his innate attraction to boys ‘explains many of the lingering puzzles of his history’, and the ‘concealment of his sexual predilections had its impact on the dazzling obfuscations of his writing’.

With this in mind, I have made one or two additions to the text of our article, which are at least relevant and of interest. Of course one has to avoid overstatement or – as has been hinted at in the inconclusive discussions to the article – giving undue weight to material reflecting one’s own personal views. Any comments or suggestions will be welcome. Dominique (talk) 21:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've struck a very nice balance here, presenting MacCarthy's take on things without overstating (or understating) the case. Nice work. Nandesuka (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will be doing a complete scholarly over view and source everything around the end of this month. I've been backlogged with my updating that I haven't been able to get to it, but I moved Byron ahead of Keats, so this will be the first Romantic on my list. I will be sure to respect your additions, but some of the others might be cleaned up. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I agree the article is uneven and will need further adjustments. For instance, the 'Medora' allusion cannot be left as it is, though a complete analysis would be out of place. The overview is important, and some consistency of style and standard of sourcing is desirable - if indeed that is possible in a multi-edited situation. I am no Byron specialist, but will be interested in further improvements, and may occasionally throw in (or out!) an odd sentence or two. Dominique (talk) 14:05, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dominique, I am performing a major overhaul of the page right now. It is being worked somewhere else. However, I am respecting the MacCarthy lines (but throwing out some really bad references). The page will be restructured to be more appropriate to such a page as this, along with citations and dates. I'm telling you this now because I will need some of your help later. I should have something ready by monday. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I look forward to the overhaul, and will be interested to opine on any changes or re-sourcing. Dominique (talk) 13:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How many books do you have? And what kind? We need to pool our resources. I have many books that focus on his life as a poet, one full biography (like a true biography), a biography that looks as his "uninhibited"ness, and one that looks at his relationship with his off spring. I need to get this up to FA quality so I can start a featured list ("featured articles" that resemble my user name). Not really. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 14:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find your questions flattering, but as I said, I am no specialist. Before my acquisition of MacCarthy, I relied on compendia, library material (incl articles) and occasional curiosities e.g. Crompton's monothematic study, and my Oxford poetry collection. MacC is so comprehensive and her scholarly researches so vast, that her work can be seen as 'definitive', though she is very conscious of her debt to earlier biographers. I presume you have this book? Her sources (apart from Murray) are of course largely collections of Byron-related material: Aberdeen, Oxford, British Library, Athens,Cambridge etc The books she acknowledges particularly are: Marchand (& the editions of Byron's letters), Maurois, Origo, R Holmes's Shelley, Michael Foot's The Politics of Paradise, Crompton & Moore. My impression is that you are amply qualified to oversee the development of this article (certainly more than I), and I'm sure you'll agree that there is a limit to what can be achieved or presented in the context of a WP article, open as it is to all and sundry. The 'purpose' is the main criterion, which I see as being a ready source of general, but authentic information for public use and interest. So it really is a matter of covering the main life events and facets of personality (largely done) and of course his work, and keeping the wolves at bay! I shall be of course interested to know of any questions that arise, but suspect you already have the resources at your disposal. Dominique (talk) 21:39, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When were the Murray files released? I mean, what year? Should that information be included in the article? --Bluejay Young (talk) 22:42, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just commented on the John Murray article but I see that it's barely touched at all which means it will prob be a long, longtime before someone gets to answer me. I'm posting here too since more people come here and since Murray was Byron's publisher and a big guy in his life. I don't know if that's okay but if not then go ahead and remove it. Here's what I'm copying from the John Murray:

I saw that the two have been mixed together here and I don't know how the best way is to fix it. The article talks about both. I've come across other articles that mentioned John Murray either as the publisher or the house and both link here. I've not touch any since this one needs to be fixed first. I don't know how many article link here so is it even possible to fix it? If so I think we should have two separate articles. One on the publisher and one on the publishing house.--Nocturnalsleeper (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the Greek poem written on the occasion of Byron's death is rendered in English as 'To the Death of Lord Byron'. This seems odd, since it suggests that it is being written as some sort of ode, or in any case to celebrate his death rather than to mourn it. Might 'On the Death of Lord Byron' be a better approximation? Perhaps someone who knows both Greek and English sufficiently well can comment? MJM74 (talk) 03:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone is being excessively literal: Eis principally means to, but it is a wide-ranging word. I will consult a Demotic dictionary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the section Fondness_for_animals a bit misleading? How about Love for animals? Could the heading be changed?DanSand (talk) 01:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its going to be removed in the revision. However, the various vandalism and the rest moved the bulk of revising to user space, so the old headings are still in place. This should be fixed early next year. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:47, 17 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section Byron in Italy and Greece totally ignores his relationship with the Shelley and Williams families, and more important his time spent with Edward Trelawny. Also Byron having his own boat (the Bolivar) built in competition with Shelly's boat (the Don Juan), ending in Byron's attendance at the funeral of Shelley, pictured in the well known paining by Edouard Fournier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Funeral_of_Shelley_by_Louis_Edouard_Fournier.jpg

Examining the References it would appear the contributors to this biography relied mostly on Fiona MacCarthy, but did not include other biographical material from:

• Marchand, Leslie A., Byron: A Biography (three Volumes) New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1957

• His Very Self and Voice (Collected conversations of Lord Byron), Edited by Ernest J. Lovell, Jr., New York, 1954

• Moore, Thomas, Letters and Journals of Lord Byron, With Notices of His Life, London, 1830

• Trelawny, E. J., Recollections of the Last Days of Shelley and Byron, London: Edward Moxon, 1858

• Dallas, Robert Charles, Recollections Of The Life Of Lord Byron, London, Charles Knight, 1825

• Borst, William, Lord Byron's First Pilgrimage, Connecticut: Archon Books, 1969

and others.

Also in the section "Lasting Influence" it is written: The re-founding of the Byron Society in 1971. Please note there is a Byron Society of America and an International Byron Society, however there is no just plain Byron Society.

http://www.byronsociety.org/bsa/index.html

http://www.internationalbyronsociety.org/

Sirswindon (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The page is being completely rewritten. The current version is the old vandalized version. Also, Trelawny's work is not a good source, as with Dallas's. MacCarthy currently has the most scholarly and trust worthy source on Byron right now. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who are you to tell me that Trelawny is not a good source? Who else was with him at the end of his life? Who does MacCarthy quote? If this is to be a quality biography you must include Trelawny. Sirswindon (talk) 03:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may be being rewritten, but this section totally ignores Trelawny who played a significant role in Byron's life. Who will edit this section and add Trelawny to it? Sirswindon (talk) 03:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are POV problems with the source. He lacks the critical objectivity needed. Like James Boswell for Samuel Johnson, it is an interesting read but can't be used as a basis for the article. And Sirswindon, when I get a chance to finish rewriting it, I will make sure to contact you and you can tell me what also needs to be added. Major biographies are a long and complicated work and take time. As you can see from this (about 40% complete and just for the first part of his life), the article will be significantly reworked and corrected.

I do not believe you would make that statement if you had read Trelawny's description of Byron:

"You never know a man's temper until you have been imprisoned in a ship with him, or a woman's until you have married her. Few friendships can stand the ordeal by water; when a yacht from England with a pair of these thus tried friend touches, --- say at Malta or Gibraltar, --- you can be sure that she will depart with only one. I was never on shipboard with a better companion than Byron, he was generally cheerful, gave no trouble, assumed no authority, uttered no complaints, and did not interfere with the working of the ship; when appealed to he always answered, 'do as you like.'"

Byron always felt at ease when sailing in the Med. I feel one of the keys to his personality can be found in Childe Harold's Pilgrimage - Canto 4 - CLXXXIV:

And I have loved thee, Ocean! and my joy

Of youthful sports was on thy brest to be

Borne, like thy bubbles, onward: from a boy

I wanton'd with thy breakers -- they to me

Were a delight; and if the freshening sea

Make them a terror -- 'twas a pleasing fear;

For I was as if were a child of thee,

And trusted to thy billows far and near,

And laid my haand upon thy mane -- as I do here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sirswindon (talk • contribs) 16:50, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sirswindow - Trelawny is clearly not an objective source of information. No primary recollections are. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ottavia Riva --- There are as many Byrons as there are Byronists. It is important to read the primary recollections as well as reading MacCarthy and Marchand. You wrote that Trelawny is not objective; but without him you would not have an account of Byron's behaviour at Shelley's funeral. How can anyone be "objective" concerning Byron? One can only be "subjective" --- that is why so much has been written about him. It is almost impossible to produce a "lucid" very short biography of Byron. But if it is to be attempted, it should contain as many snapshots as might be required to challenge the reader into further reading. Such a list is as important as the article itself. The list of further reading, now included in the article, is almost useless. Sirswindon (talk) 16:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sirswindon, you are entering into my specialty. I know exactly which sources are credible and which sources are not. I also have a long history of experience with literary biographies. And how can anyone be objective? Biographies are supposed objective. They deal with facts. Trelawny's work is not a biography. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Wikipedia work everyone has something to contribute, even people who are not experts, and who do not know anything exactly. The proper approach in this instance is to include Trelawny, of course, with such caveats as later biographers have indicated appropriate. We, as Wikipedia editors, are neither qualified nor permitted to exclude sources on our own sayso, or anyone´s. --Haiduc (talk) 23:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Ottavia Riva --- I do apologize as I did not realize I was carrying on a dialog with a recognized Byron Specialist. I started this discussion pointing out that the section on Byron in Italy and Greece was devoid of much of the significant information concerning his life during that period of his life. Some of this comes from Williams Journal and from Trelawny. I must agree with Haiduc --- should you wish to add caveats --- do so. But it is important to cover Byron's final year using the many contemporary accounts as part of that coverage. I will be looking forward to your rewrite of the entire page. (Including your list of further reading).Sirswindon (talk) 00:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am more of a Keats specialist in terms of individuals, but I have a long history in 18th and 19th century biography. See the Samuel Johnson page for how we dealt with Boswell. Yes, it came up a few times in text. However, we put most of it in quote boxes as "color". Biographies have gone through a lot over the years and became more critical, more objective, and dealt with issues in a fairer manner. There are many perspectives that need to be included that Trelawny just didn't know about. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If your specialty is Keats you may not be aware that I wrote most of the Wikipedia articles on Charles Armitage Brown. Added much to Joseph Severn. I also wrote the ones on Edward Ellerker Williams and Edward John Trelawny. Although much Byron material has been uncovered in recent years (Letters, narratives, etc.) if his biography is to be "complete" it must contain many of the "facts" recorded by those, such as Trelawny. Sirswindon (talk) 21:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I will just say that Fiona MacCarthy is a writer of quality popular biographies with a background as a journalist, and that the list of OR's "specialisms" stretches ever longer .... Johnbod (talk) 22:29, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Really? Because it looks like from just the Samuel Johnson article that I sure know what I am talking about when it comes to early biographers, and from the discussion on Nicolò Giraud and my creating it as what it is now shows that I have a strong understanding and ability to determine quality sources on Byron. I have multiple graduate degrees in the field and related fields, and there are many people who know my actual identity and can verify my credentials. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ottava Rima asked me to look over this debate. I think the debate has strayed from the actual question. It can easily resolved by looking at the reliable sources policy, one of the core policies of Wikipedia. Note that the overview says "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." Biographies of Byron by his friends clearly fall into the "primary source material" category. We should only include the bits from these biographies that later scholars have deemed important. We cannot rely on our own judgment, no matter how qualified we are. There are many reasons for this. I'll list the simplest. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, that is, a tertiary source - we summarize secondary sources. We are not doing original research. Awadewit (talk) 21:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fine than use what all the rest of us use: Marchand's three volumes on Byron. He refers to the original sources as I have done. Use MacCarthy, but use the original material as well. Otherwise you have a biased biography. Sirswindon (talk) 04:25, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Have you bothered to read Marchand? A lack of an effective index, few citations, and a lot of speculation. Sure, he did a hell of a job editing Byron's letters, but that was it. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • When writing the Mary Shelley biography, Qp10qp and I found it was useful to compare all of the major biographies of MS. If they all agreed on a particular point, we tried to include it in the article. If only some of them contained a particular speculation, we tended to leave it out. This is one way that we could condense the story of her life as well. Awadewit (talk) 22:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How does that allow for the evolution of history, and novel points of view? In Byron´s case, we have the contribution of queer studies, a discipline that dates back only forty years or so. Should that voice be squelched? In Mary Shelley´s case, for example, there have been a number of voices that have suggested that not she but her husband wrote "Frankenstein." Their arguments need to be presented as just that. But a quick inspection of the article yielded no such information. I am concerned that your suggested approach may result in an article reduced to the lowest common denominator. --Haiduc (talk) 23:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The idea is to present the mainstream scholarly views on Byron (often articulated in things like the Cambridge Companion). I don't see why queer studies would be ignored in Byron's case; there is clearly lots of scholarship on that issue. In the case of Frankenstein, that thesis has been roundly rejected throughout the years, Lauritsen's book notwithstanding (I'm not going to go through the refutations of that thesis - they have already taken place in other fora). To present that argument would give it undue weight. Wikipedia reports the consensus of the academic community as it is at the current time. If you read the Shelley article in full, you will see that it has hardly been reduced to the "lowest common denominator" but rather that it addresses all of the major scholarly issues that have been raised in relation to her works, which is eventually what this article should do with Byron. Awadewit (talk) 00:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't see why queer studies would be ignored..." If that is so, that is well. But now you are presenting a different method, which I consider to be sounder, in which you acknowledge newer trends in scholarship as legitimate material. Your previous post suggested that all major biographies had to agreee in order for a given aspect to be included in a Wikipedia article -- that is what I was objecting to, since older biographies of Byron are more likely to paper over his pederasty. Your new formulation makes a lot more sense to me. As for Mary Shelley, Lauritsen is not the only one to have come to that conclusion, but this is not the place to discuss that topic. And I disagree with your suggestion that any presentation of that theory would constitute undue weight. It is all in how you write the article. --Haiduc (talk) 09:20, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, what I said was "If they all agreed on a particular point, we tried to include it in the article. If only some of them contained a particular speculation, we tended to leave it out." - note the "we tried to include" and "we tended to". Neither of these are absolutes. Not all biographical details can be included and most speculation was left out (as I am sure you are aware, there is a lot of speculation about MS). One of the really important things to do in an encyclopedia article for the lay person is to provide some sort of coherent narrative that does not get bogged down in scholarly arguments. Awadewit (talk) 10:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outdent - to be honest, I plan on working with a few people and asking for many comments in regards to POV when finishing this biography. Those I plan to rely on include Moni3, who would definitely be able to say if the article is fair towards queer theory interpretations of parts of Byron's life. Byron is very controversial and many people have used him for whatever means. It takes a lot of work to go through his various biographies, and, as you can see from the early life and Giraud page, I own all of the major ones. I plan on creating a page on Byron's relationships and finishing off his poetry before jumping in to editing the page as a whole in order to measure out the various weight issues that will arise. This takes time, especially when we want it to b e perfect. Samuel Johnson took 3 months of research, 4 months of work and planning, and then 2 months for the FAC. With the controversial nature of Byron, it will take me at least 7 more months (after all of the planning and research already devoted) before there will be something that can be called "complete". Ottava Rima (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I have pointed out before --- there are as many Byrons as there are Byronists. The article will not be "perfect" --- there is no such thing. The important part of this biography will be listing and explaining the references so that readers may find their own way to further reading. This means listing many sources, and allowing each of us to present a view, not necessarily agreed upon by all. An example is the recent work by Edna O'Brian "Byron in Love." I feel it is no more than a patchwork of speculation and hyperbole, but others might consider her view of Byron as fact. Hopefully the Wikipedia article will allow readers to delve into Byron's many Personas and then join the rest of us in trying to understand him and his poetry. I have had articles published in The Byron Journal and The Keats-Shelly Journal. I trust that those of you who will be rewriting this article will not ignore my suggestion. Sirswindon (talk) 04:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sirswindon, I share your concerns. I will add that anyone's "plans" for any article in Wikipedia have to be taken with a grain of salt. None of us is in a position to impose plans regarding the evolution of an article, though we are all welcome to propose, and enact, ideas. There are a number of fundamental flaws, as far as standard Wikipedia operating procedure (at a minimum), in much of the above discourse. They have to do with ownership of articles, assumption of authority, and others which I think are crystal clear to those with eyes to see. The main point is that we have to maintain a tolerant and inclusive environment in which everyone can contribute according to their domain of expertise, and in which personal shortcomings are accommodated as long as they do not impact the gradual improvement of the article. --Haiduc (talk) 08:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are two birth dates given on the page. Can the discrepancy be cleared up please?JocelynDeBath (talk) 01:31, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recently the files below were uploaded and they appear to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think they would be a useful addition, please feel free to include any of them.

Both are by Richard Westall, 1813. Dcoetzee 14:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Links to Romanticism are mentioned, but not Philosophy. Just as Goethe strongly influenced German Idealism, Byron was a tremendous influence on Irrationalism on the Continent, esp. Nietzsche. RS - Bertrand Russell, Chapter XXIII, History of Western Philosophy.

George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron → Lord Byron — Per WP:COMMONNAME. "Lord Byron" is the name by which he is almost universally referred in modern general-audience sources. It's already a redirect to this article, so questions of ambiguity are moot; the only question is whether "Lord Byron" or "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron" is the name by which most readers would recognize him. --Powers ^T 01:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lord Byron is not the common name. George Gordon Byron is the common name. I have multiple collections of Romantic poetry and many, many biographies on Byron, and George Gordon Byron is the common use. Your statement above is blatantly wrong. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A cursory search of Google Books shows many more books with "Lord Byron" in their titles than those with "George Gordon Byron". I think the former is also far, far more recognizable to the average modern English-speaking person. Anecdotally, I stumbled upon this article when I found a link to it on another page, like so: [[George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron|Byronesque]] I had hoped to determine the identity of the Byron being alluded to by simply noting the destination of the link in my status bar; instead, I had to actually follow the link to verify that the 6th Baron Byron was indeed the Lord Byron of poetry fame. I find it difficult to believe I'd be alone in my confusion. Powers ^T 03:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A few book titles are -not- common use, and there are far more -collections- of his poems than books on Byron. Furthermore, the biographies of Percy Bysshe Shelley, John Leats, Leigh Hunt, Robert Southey, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, William Wordsworth, William Blake, and Alfred, Lord Tennyson all have him as "Byron" or "Byron, George Gordon" from what I can tell simply by the 90+ books that I currently have on my desk. Furthermore, MoS consensus on -lords- is to describe them by their official title, as that is an extremely common name per the heavy documentation of every member of British nobility within legal documents. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing two purposes of using his name. In prose, as in the case of your cited biographies, we should absolutely use his full proper name and title. Likewise when he is listed as the author of a particular work. However, in the case of a title -- such as the book titles I cited -- we should use the name that most readers would most readily recognize. See the rule of thumb at WP:COMMONNAME: "What word would the average user of Wikipedia put into the search engine?" If you think that's "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron" (or even just "George Gordon, Lord Byron") then I'm not sure there's anything I could say that would convince you. Powers ^T 14:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but the overwhelming use of his name in scholarship is George Gordon Byron. Even the majority of biographies use George Gordon Byron. There is no basis for your claim. There have been people that have complained about his name for years, and the community has always ruled in defense of the nobility title and there has never been a convincing argument that Lord Byron is used in even close to the majority of works, let alone is the "common" name. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I agree with the full name being used, so long as the redirect is in place. Any confusion should be addressed as early as possible in the lead. Where multiple sources can be shown to use many versions of his name, a simple claim that one is "common" requires far more evidence, particulalry when evidence to the contrary is given. Lord Byron's full name is used far more often than Lord Dunsany's, but we also use his full name and title.YobMod 08:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So we make the reader click to verify the subject of the article? I find that absurd. Powers ^T 14:45, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Click on what? The first sentence tells us he is also called Lord Byron. Renaming wont solve the problem of people coming to the wrong article or having to read the first sentence to verify they are on the correct page. As there are multiple other notable Lords Byron, renaming would also require this be disambiguated.YobMod 14:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are there other Lord Byrons of similar or reasonable notability? --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 15:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted, issues of "primary topic" are moot, as Lord Byron quite properly redirects to this article. Powers ^T 16:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was reading an article. The article used the word "Byronesque". Not knowing, but suspecting, which "Byron" might be referred to, I hovered over the link to see what article was linked. The article was this one, but I did not know if "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron" was the Lord Byron of poetry fame, so I had to click through to find out, instead of being able to just go on reading the article I was reading. Powers ^T 16:23, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) FWIW, jstor pulls out 33 references with the exact match to "George Gordon Byron" but 4218 with "Lord Byron". Of the 4218, 230 contain the exact name "George Gordon" in the text. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 03:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. English speaking people generally know the poet as "Lord Byron". Poetry specialists may or may not use other terms, but the evidence I see from JSTOR generally supports Lord Byron over the current title by an astronomical margin. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 20:52, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is completely bogus. 1. JSTOR does not have access to the Keats and Shelley Journal, which has far more uses of George Gordon Byron than anything that would be contained in JSTOR. 2. The Library of Congress has far, far more hits under George Gordon Byron. Furthermore, "Byron" on its own appears more times than "Lord Byron". 3. JSTOR has 39539 for -Byron-. 21448 for George Byron. 7801 for George Gordon Byron. Only 11507 for Lord Byron. 3970 for "Lord Byron" as a phrase, not the 4218 that you claim. Funny how 300 articles suddenly vanish in a few hours. If you are going to play these games, don't do it with someone who is an expert in the field with the whole DC consortium at their fingertips. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:15, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bit, unnecessary, and rather uncalled for, the rant I mean, don't you think, Ottava Rima? --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 00:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it is hardly surprising that George Byron occurs more frequently than Lord Byron (I get 23012 and 12465 for the two terms respectively - a bit more than your numbers) since articles on Byron will doubtless contain George as well, since that was his name. A better indicator of the common name is what article titles use. If you search for "George Byron" in the title vs "Lord Byron" in the title, you get 2 and 108 respectively. The 2 for George are for George Byron Roorbach rather than for the poet. (That 'Byron' appears more often than 'Lord Byron' hardly needs explaining!) To me it seems fairly obvious that the poet is more often called "Lord Byron" (or just Byron) than "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron" and the numbers backing that up don't seem bogus. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 00:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. And I think a move to just plain Byron is fine as well. The current title is just not, well, common. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 00:46, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that looking at titles is a better metric, since we're looking at what to title this article. Powers ^T 02:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rant? What rant? I straightforwardly proved that you were spreading blatant falsehoods. There is no rant. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what you want the page to move to, the name is based on an objective standard and not popular opinion. Furthermore, "Byron" does not prioritize George Gordon Byron, as there are millions of Byrons in the world. Library of Congress classifies him as Byron, George Gordon. Norton classifies him as such. Penguin classifies him as such. Oxford classifies him as such. There is no debate. If you want to continue wasting your own time, you can feel free. But there is no justification that can be used and that was made clear from the beginning. Ottava Rima (talk) 11:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Contrary to your assertions, there is indeed a debate, and you are not right just because you say so. Powers ^T 13:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) (and ec) Unfortunately, there is clear justification for moving the title to either Byron or Lord Byron. Let's examine the following:

1. On JSTOR, 108 articles have "Lord Byron" in the title while 0 that have George Byron in the title refer to our poet. Clearly scholars writing on the subject prefer Lord Byron over George Byron or the unwieldy title our article currently uses. It is entirely possible that they prefer Byron over Lord Byron but George in the title is not preferred by them.
2. On wikipedia, Byron and Lord Byron both redirect to your preferred title. There is no apparent need to disambiguate.
3. Per WP:NAME: Use names and terms most commonly used, and so most likely to be recognized, for the topic of the article. You cannot seriously argue that George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron is more recognizable or commonly used than Byron or Lord Byron.
4. Per WP:NAME: Use terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article Will users arrive at wikipedia and type in George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron or just plain old Byron?
5. Per WP:NAME: Be precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously Byron alone seems to do a fine job of identifying the topic of the article unambiguously.
6. Per WP:NAME: A good article title is brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.) The current article title is the antithesis of brief and to the point.
7. Per WP:NAME: The choice of article names should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists. Readers will always prefer Byron or Lord Byron over George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron.
8. On examining the references included in the article, 11 use just plain Byron in the title, 12 use Lord Byron in the title (4 of which seem to be published works of Byron where the publishers appear to think that attributing the poems to "Lord Byron" is perfectly fine), 4 have George Gordon in the title - of which 1 also uses Lord and only one matches the title of this article.

In general, we, on wikipedia prefer to use the common names of articles and our focus is more on the names people actually use rather than on formal ones. I understand you say that you're an expert on the subject, and perhaps the readers of your numerous articles in the Keats and Shelley Journal expect no less than George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron (though, looking at the references in the article, I find none from that august poetry journal!), but, here on wikipedia we prefer to keep things simple. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 13:20, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do major publishers refer to Byron as? George Gordon Byron. The Norton collection? George Gordon Byron. Penguin? George Gordon Byron. Oxford? George Gordon Byron. What does the Library of Congress classify him as? George Gordon Byron. There is no way to justify not calling him such, so please, stop the nonsense. Your comments are filled with 100% incorrect information and yet you are trying to be snide about it. Furthermore, the fact that Byron is a Peer means that he falls under community wide Peer Naming conventions, as Peers are published in their full name and title in millions of works and are the official classification per the British nobility system. Byron went by his full title. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:30, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He may have gone by his full title but the reality is that his common name is Byron or Lord Byron, and neither of those names needs disambiguation. Per our policies, the article should be at Byron or Lord Byron. (Also, do note that his notability is primarily as the poet and not as a member of the nobility so the official classification does not apply.) Even the published poetry referenced in the article is attributed to Lord Byron rather than George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron.) --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 22:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can claim that all you want, but you have been proven 100% wrong. So cut the nonsense already. Furthermore, "common name" deals with authors like Mark Twain, who is classified as Mark Twain and not by his original name. It does not apply in this situation as libraries classify him as Byron, George Gordon. There is no way for people to be confused as you claim, and all of your arguments have been debunked. Stop. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:16, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious what you mean by "refer to Byron as". In what context are they referring to him? And I'm also unclear on what you mean by a Library of Congress classification, since we're not classifying Lord Byron here, we're identifying him. Powers ^T 22:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You've heard of a library before, right? What do you think "refer to Byron" would mean? It is really straight forward. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:16, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We "refer to" the man in this very article in at least four different ways: "Byron", "Lord Byron", "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron", etc. All right here in this article, right now. So my question was, in what context do those sources "refer to" Byron as "George Gordon Byron"? As for the Library of Congress, my confusion is because you switched from talking about referring to and identifying the person to "classifying" the person. I would think he is classified as a poet, and probably as a British noble. But what that has to do with his name is beyond me. Powers ^T 03:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Using just "Byron" as the title would be as silly as using just "Beethoven", "Churchill", "Bush", "Tolstoy" and all the rest. Using "Lord Byron" is also silly because this chap was one of 13 Lords Byron so far, of whom Wikipedia has currently 6 different articles. He may have been far and away the most famous Lord Byron, but the other 12 were/are also just as entitled to be referred to as "Lord Byron", so ... -- JackofOz (talk) 23:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why. Both Byron as well as Lord Byron redirect to the current article. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 23:45, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Byron is an obvious miss-redirect. The name "Byron" is a regular first name and a regular last name. There is no way to claim that George Gordon Byron comes close to 50% of its use, especially since 19th century literary figures are -not- commonly known. Lord Byron is disputable, but it should never be used within an article, as the author classification is George Gordon Byron, so there is no need for a redirect. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:54, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ottava, we're talking about the title of the article here. Per WP:NAME it should be at the most obvious/common/popular name. Almost no one in the English speaking world would be at a loss to figure out which Byron was being referred to if you went up to them and started a conversation about the man. The other 12 peers of the realm (if that is the right term) can have their full names and titles in their article names but it is both against our common name policy as well as a disservice to our readers to keep the current title. Very few, and I mean a very tiny few, even know that his first name was George, let alone that his middle name was Gordon, or that he was the 6th Baron Byron, or that there are 12 other Baron Byrons jostling for respect. Hundreds and thousands have read the poetry of Lord Byron and only a precious few that of George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron. I know you've done good work on poetry articles here on wikipedia, but, I think, your familiarity with the subject is causing you to lose perspective here. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 00:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"most obvious/common/popular nam" Seeing as how he is an author and authors are listed by a specific name, then the common name is that. Book stores and libraries list him as George Gordon Byron. No more, no less. Anything to the contrary is imaginary BS. I'm done with your games. You have no argument, and your pursuit is against the MoS, against standards, and against logic. You already crossed WP:CIVIL and NPA attacks above. Does an AN or ANI need to be brought about because of your indecent actions? And you keep putting up claim after demonstrably false claim. There should be a policy against such absurdities. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:56, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Ottava, when the works of the man are published under Lord Byron, I don't really see how you can claim that using that as the title is not appropriate. Nor does it seem to me that an expert on poetry, even a self-proclaimed one, would be unable to recognize that the vast multitudes are unaware of a George Gordon Byron. It seems to me that your reactions here are not particularly healthy in the sense that you seem over-invested in this and are taking the whole thing rather personally. I think I've been perfectly civil and am surprised that you think otherwise given the tone of your posts from your first response onward. If your remarks here are your general standards of civility and 'no personal attacks' then all I can say is that I would hate to encounter you on one of your particularly bad days! However, as far as I'm concerned, I've stated what I think, I've provided many arguments based on our policies that you haven't addressed, but, it it makes you feel better, please take this to AN or ANI or wherever you think fit. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 01:55, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, please do bring this to a noticeboard. It's clear enough that you're the one being unreasonable here, tossing around insults, threatening escalation, and dismissing arguments out-of-hand. I would welcome the increased attention. Powers ^T 03:05, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with having Byron and Lord Byron redirect here, because this is obviously the person most people are thinking of when they say these names. If they were actually wanting a different Byron, they're told how to access it at the top of the page. But as for the title of this article being just "Byron" or "Lord Byron" - no way in a million years (it would be like having "Shakespeare" as the primary title of the article currently called "William Shakespeare"). -- JackofOz (talk) 01:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"hen the works of the man are published under Lord Byron" Lying is incivil. LoC classifies him as George Gordon Byron. That is all there is. Your persistence is the very definition of tenditious and incivil. "would be unable to recognize that the vast multitudes are unaware of a George Gordon Byron" Then I guess they have problems when they go to their libraries and book stores for information, especially when there is nothing under "L" for Byron! Your arguments are so incredibly wrong that you must know that they have no basis and is further proof of your intentional disruption. Stop. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• This should be a no-brainer, per WP:COMMONNAME. "Lord Byron" is the most commonly-used moniker in English, he's the most famous Lord Byron by quite some distance, and the short form is considerably better known than his full title. The current title is like an exercise in how to get this wrong. There's also the question of which of the above editors is most likely to be wrong in any given debate, which is also a no-brainer. As for whether to use "Byron" or "Lord Byron", I think the latter is slightly core common and a little clearer. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 03:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And yet every library categorizes him as George Gordon Byron. Common name requires reliable sources and you lack any. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lets see - Norton Anthology uses "George Gordon". Harold Bloom's Oxford Anthology uses "George Gordon". Martin Day's well known History of English Literature 1660-1837 uses "George Gordon Noel Byron, 6th Baron Byron of Rochdale". M H Abrams in Naturalism Supernaturalism uses "George Gordon". Paul de Man in The Rhetoric of Romanticism uses "George Gordon". Northrup Frye in Anatomy of Criticism uses... you guessed it, "George Gordon". What do Sandra Gilbert and Susan Gubar use in The Madwoman in the Attic? Shock?!?! Its "George Gordon". How can all of these pre-eminent critics and collections use a name that would be unknown to everyone... unless the claims above are 100% a sham and you guys are wasting everyone's time with this nonsense. Cut it out. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't have even thought it necessary to point this out, but our naming conventions are not predicated on what libraries call people. JSTOR provides the evidence for common naming, as shown above. I'm sure at least some of the 22,100 results turned up here are to reliable sources making this assertion. I am unsure why you think invective is going to persuade people, rather than simply convince them that you're being intractable for the sake of it (which you're infamous for). Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:24, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"are not predicated on what libraries call people" You should honestly be blocked for that because that can be nothing but trolling. Library labelling of the individual -is- the common use. Byron is not alive. 99.99999% of people don't have a clue who he is or cares about who he is. Who does care? Publishers, libraries, literary critics, and people who have to read him in their text book collections. As has been pointed out, -they- all call him George Gordon. Your refusal to accept the vast majority of use is unbelievably inappropriate. There isn't anything about "persuasion" as this is not a popular vote. It is an objective standard. The issue was ended from the very onset as years of consensus have already said that the above is so clear that there is no way to claim otherwise. Your pushing of the point is disruptive. That should have been obvious to you, and you should know better. Furthermore, MoS does not accept -honorary- titles in naming. Barack Obama is Barack Obama, not President Obama. Byron was not "Lord Byron" but 6th Baron Byron. You can read about it here (see: "Wikipedia editors that the use of honorific titles inline is intended only to describe the person as holding a particular title"). That is the difference between Baron Byron and Lord Byron, as one is an -honorific-. Finally, remember that this is an -encyclopedia- and that you should actually treat it as one. This isn't some children's game so your actions are inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Now, I am tired of the "commonname" bs, though it is proven wrong, is not acceptable use - Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Explicit conventions - All British Peers follow the same convention, which is their full title. This allows for there to be -no- problems with the fact that honorifics (i.e. "Lord" and "Sir") are unacceptable use per MoS and distinguishes them as per millions and millions of legitimate uses of them in British records and texts. This has been an upheld standard on thousands of pages for many years. It wont change here, especially with the claims about "Lord Byron" being a common name 100% false. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are going too far, Ottava. Please tone down your language and cease accusing us of discussing in bad faith. We have all been quite civil to you, receiving nothing but scorn and abuse in return. Please don't make me escalate this issue. Powers ^T 15:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going too far? You are the one starting this whole nonsense. You have no legitimate argument and you pushed absurdities. The two above should honestly have known better then to encourage your disruption. You have contributed nothing but disruption. Once it was mentioned that the LoC classifies him as George Gordon Byron, you should have apologized for starting this. The other two should never have bothered. That is enough to warrant a week long block against all three of you because you have proven that you are not here to contribute. It seems like a block would be the only way to protect the encyclopedia by those who don't actually care what the real classifications are or how people actually use them. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you think blocks are necessary, feel free to start the process. We will see what comes of it. Powers ^T 16:08, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you admitting that it will be necessary for you to be blocked because you are unwilling to respect our guidelines here and want to push an issue that has been proven wrong in every possible manner? Ottava Rima (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MoS

I'm tired of the disruption above. I will spell out the MoS very clearly, and if people continue then there will be no more excuse of ignorance on the matter. Byron is a Peer. "Lord" is an honorific. MoS has restrictions on when and where an honorific can be used. Furthermore, this is the British peerage naming MoS guideline, the -only- one that applies. Byron is an inheritance Baron title, thus, it follows the standard conventions. As for "Lord" - "As such, they should be included in the article title if a person if universally recognised with it and their name is unrecognisable without it". The Library of Congress does -not- recognize the name. Libraries follow the LoC convention and do -not-. As I have pointed out, Oxford, Cambridge, Norton, and other major publishers do -not- recognize the title. The major English Literary critics do -not- recognize the title. They call him "George Gordon", and thus, the British Peerage naming convention makes it 100% clear that it cannot be -Lord- Byron. Any further arguments here are disruptive. You want to change the MoS which has been in place since 2003? Go and pull up an RfC. This issue has been fought about many times on little pages by people who do not understand the argument or just don't care about our standards. This talk page is not for disruption so please stop. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ignoring the invective, the actual quote from the MoS is as follows:

In the cases of certain historic persons, an honorific is so commonly attached to their names that it should be included. For example, the honorific should be included for "Father Coughlin" (Charles Coughlin), the 1930s priest and broadcaster; Father Damien, the missionary in Hawaii; Father Divine, an American religious leader; Father Joseph, in 17th-century France; and Mother Teresa, a 20th-century humanitarian.

To be honest, that section would be better including some examples from the nobility rather than just religious figures; once this has been settled, Byron would be a good shout for inclusion there. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:53, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted the peerage standard. That was obvious. The fact that you quoted a completely different standard and even pointed out that there is no mention of nobility really provides a lot of evidence that you should be blocked for disruption. Cut it out. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:02, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only #3 of the British peerage section mentions this case, and doesn't address the issue of common naming. As Powers said above, please feel free to Plaxico yourself on ANI if you think blocks are appropriate here. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Common naming does not apply. It is very specific in the above. There are guidelines for -individual- subjects. It makes it clear that only if it is -universally- recognized. Do you understand what that means? I think you do, so, please stop this. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you're referring to #6 in that section, then that's a matter of choosing between "Byron" and "Lord Byron", not between either of those two sensible suggestions and "George Gordon Byron" or "George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron". Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:39, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Byron" is not an option for a name. He is not listed as "Byron" in records. Your statement is as absurd as saying "William Shakespeare" should be "Shakespeare" or something similar. What is with your complete disregard for standard encyclopedic naming conventions and these rules that have been upheld by the community for over 6 years? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And Thumperward, why did you ignore that "Members of the hereditary Peerage" is the primary rule here? Is it because it defeated any argument you could make? Or is there some other reason? Ottava Rima (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably because your arguments were obfuscated by false threats and personal attacks, which made it difficult to see exactly what you were referring to. #1 suggests that full title + redirect is appropriate, yes, but it also rather assumes that the short form will be split between several obvious candidates. In this case, there's really only one obvious candidate for "Lord Byron". Nevertheless, I've pinged that talk page for response. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Really? Not the fact that I stated something in the very beginning and you started quoting something that didn't apply? I mentioned the Peer standards. Did you ever bother to quote them? No. Why not? You would think that if you actually wanted to find out what the MoS said, you would have looked it up. You didn't. You continued to push something that was demonstrated as being false. You continue to push is. Why is that? And it doesn't matter where Lord Byron redirects to. What matters is the standard page title, which is following standard convention -and- the standard classification. Do you know what the term "encyclopedic" means by chance? So far, you have proven that 1. you were unwilling to look up the pertinent MoS guidelines, 2. you ignored statements that debunked your claims, and 3. you are pushing something that has no encyclopedic basis and, having never shown any interest in actually -fixing- or -working- on these pages, you are arguing with a person who has an FA -on- this very subject and who has a expertise in the field that has been verified by ArbCom. Those three things are very clear in determining that your actions are highly inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:15, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've pinged the talk page for that MoS article, by the way. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that because Lord Byron is most well-known as an author rather than as a baron, the nobility guideline may not be the only one that applies. Powers ^T 17:13, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um, the Baron guidelines apply no matter what. And if Byron is most well known as an author, then the whole "Library of Congress" classification takes priority and destroys your argument. After all, you are the one pushing for "Lord", which is a peer title. Authorship does not use honorifics in classification. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:19, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Ottava, above you accuse me of lying about hen the works of the man are published under Lord Byron. In the interests of keeping things constructive, I won't take umbrage over that because I'm beginning to think you have neither read any of the policies mentioned in the above discussion (if you had, you would have noticed that there is no Ottava Rima exclusion caveat in WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA), nor have you bothered reading the arguments that I and others have presented (if you had, you would have noted that the publishers I am talking about are actually listed in the article as references). About your substantive argument re MOS, do note that WP:MOS is a guideline, while WP:NAME is a policy. Policies take precedence over guidelines. It would be more constructive if you addressed why the commonly used and easily recognizable 'Lord Byron' does not meet the 'Recognizable', 'Easy to find', 'Precise', and 'concise' requirements listed in that policy. Or, why George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron does. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 17:29, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am being civil to you. You, however, were being extremely uncivil and tendentious. I have not personally attacked you, but you have clearly personally attacked me, which I commented on above. Furthermore, your false claims of personal attacks are even more personal attacks. The simple fact that you are pursuing this when the Peer MoS guideline was clearly pointed out and the LoC statement was pointed out meets the very definition of trolling. You need to stop. You have no basis to argue here. The fact that you keep making such absurd and factually wrong claims about names is just proof that you wont stop until you are banned. Do you even do anything around here worth while? Why are you here on this page trying to disrupt 7 years worth of consensus and yet haven't bothered to provide any worth while contributions to this encyclopedia or topic area? Why is it when every single famous literary critic is put up as proof, of the major publishers are put up as proof, and world wide library standards are put up as proof, that you continue on and on? You have made it clear that you have utter contempt for our standards and for any kind of encyclopedic integrity, and you have been belligerent, tendentious, and abusive from the start. Why are you at Wikipedia with such an attitude? Ottava Rima (talk) 18:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]