Film: Chinese Start‑class

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It's probably best that a column be added to explain why the cuts were made for the specific film? It would give better context. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 03:01, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly ideal to include that, but it would involve WP:OR, since the SAPPRFT would never disclose its reasoning. That's why I need to list out article 16 of the new law for readers to see and come up with their own opinions. Violence in a film is definitely a forbidden element, as you could imagine. Cheers. Supermann (talk) 04:48, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the citation list a vague reasoning for what was cut. The citation for Miss Peregrine states that the "eyeball feast" scene was cut because it was deemed too violent. Similarly, the THR citation for Kingsman states that scenes were cut for violent and sexual content. The citation for Logan similarly states that cuts were made for "violence and perhaps also the “brief nudity”". Citation for Alien: Covenant states that the cuts removed gory shots and shots of violence. The citation for Lost City of Z suggests that the cuts were made to get the film under two hours and speed up the pacing to suit the local audience. It isn't OR if you're simply repeating what a reliable, published source has stated themselves, and many of the citations provide reasoning for the cuts and summaries of the kind of content that was cut. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 18:55, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Vague reasoning? exactly! SAPPRFT would never disclose it. But we could guess it's due to violence, sex, etc. Pls feel free to add that column, as long as what you are about to do won't get this whole page deleted. Btw, it's not in my habit to keep discouraging people and deleting their contributions. Cheers. Supermann (talk) 19:38, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Vague reasoning is enough, really. It's context enough if the content was cut for gore or for sexual content or for encouraging superstition. That much is all I really think is needed, unless sources make specific mention of particular scenes, i.e. the Peregrine or Alien cases. (The Alien being missing from the movie is a rather large thing.) Btw, it's rude to bring up issues totally unrelated to the current discussion at hand and to be continually assuming bad faith of me. :) ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:16, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the inclusion of The Lost City of Z, even if the RS is saying "appears" the RS is still reporting that the cuts were made by producers for pacing rather than the State Administration. The article itself doesn't even make the statement that the statement the producer did it is possibly false nor suggests that the cuts were actually made by the State. The onus for inclusion should be a statement that the Administration make cuts, and in this case, another source stating that it is elsewhere believed that the State actually did it or the producers did so to please the body beforehand, rather than for pacing. "Reported" is just saying another stated it, and "appears" is just as easily "is it apparent that". ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 21:57, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am just glad that we don't have many edit wars here. I appreciate your input. Pls don't have the impulse of deleting outright. The Lost City of Z and Dangal shouldn't be deleted, also because with the June 2017 notice from SAPPRFT, it's now illegal to spread uncut version or deleted scenes. Even commercial cut has really become a political cut. Savvy? Supermann (talk) 22:01, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really change that the films were initially altered by persons other than the censors and for reasons other than censoring material. The article. Something that retroactively affects them doesn't change the original intent of the alteration. Also, per Bold, Revert, Discuss, I'm well within rights to delete things outright from the article should I have legitimate grounds on which I believe it shouldn't be there, as you are within your rights to revert it. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:08, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that you know nothing about politics in China and are "naive and simple" about how the communists in China operate. I don't want to get into "Right Great Wrongs" with you. Dangal is also cut in the United States version, but Uncle Sam has nothing to do with it. Period. But in China, you never know. Despite CFI wrote, "The cuts were not forced on them by censors but were made by star Aamir Khan to make the film more gripping for Chinese audiences, according to that film’s studio." But that film studio doesn't even have a website. And we don't have additional great RS on this. I suggest you leave Dangal without further impulse for deletion. If China is a democracy like U.S., I will let you do it.Supermann (talk) 22:15, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The June 2017 notice came out of blue without single consultation from the people of China. It always works retroactively in China. With all due respect, please don't apply your western legal knowledge to the communist China. Supermann (talk) 22:18, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A studio can make a statement without having a website? And I would like to warn you about WP:CIVILITY and WP:PERSONALATTACK. And, frankly, I don't really understand what your going for with half of what you wrote, including the whole bit about Right Great Wrongs and Uncle Sam. In the interest of bringing third parties to the discussion I've posted a neutral notice to WikiProject Film. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:20, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I yield to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Film/Chinese cinema task force. They must know better. I am just saying, please stop deletion outright, but pls feel free to modify and discuss. That is how I practice good faith.Supermann (talk) 22:27, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you feel offended, I apologize. I just want to urge you to take these Chinese Communist things with a grain of salt instead of totally relying on the CFI article.Supermann (talk) 22:32, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if the Chinese task force is active, seeing as nobody has posted to the task force's talk page in two years, but I'll post the notice there as well. Deleting content... is part of editing, and it's a part of the BRD process. And, good faith is about assuming that editors aren't out to be disruptive; your constant assumption that I am being disruptive and policing the way I am editing things is bad faith. But, it's getting off topic. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 22:36, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleting without first discussing on talk page is simply not how I roll. I am fine with modifying or clarifying. I think one of the admin, User:Alex Shih on the taskforce is still active. But I could be wrong. Supermann (talk) 22:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"It lost [number of minutes] is apparent by simply calc of two prior columns." The calculation was not done by me. It was done by CFI and directly referenced in its article. It also happens that CFI said Cloud Atlas is only 169 minutes. This is a minor deletion that I could tolerate, but I still want you to discuss first. Supermann (talk) 02:36, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Listen. I've said this before. But deleting content without necessarily discussing every single change, is a legitimate way to edit, see WP:BRD, and it's frankly grating your constant attempts to police me every time I remove any sort of content, including things that are by your admission minor. It isn't necessary that I run every little deletion by you. Per BRD, if you disagree, revert it and/or one of us brings it up on the talk page here. And, I know the calculation wasn't done by you but by the sources, but it's an unnecessary note seeing as they match up with the difference between the two columns. Simple calculations are allowed to be done, see WP:CALC. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 02:51, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have been listening, but BRD also says, "Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient." Why are you ignoring this then? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermann (talk • contribs) 03:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I support the exclusion of The Lost City of Z and Dangal due to no secondary sources indicating that censorship was a factor here. Furthermore, we need to exclude films like The Mummy if there are no secondary sources about censorship of that film. A difference in runtime should not be originally researched to be determined as censorship. Wikipedia follows secondary sources; we do not determine noteworthy listings ourselves. The runtime columns should be removed since they are being used as original research, "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources." Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 13:09, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

At first glance the article has imho 2 major problems:

• a) total lack of scholarly literature on censorship in china
• b) a completely ridiculous film list, that doesn't seem to contain a single film that was actually banned, instead it seems to be a list of hollywood & bollywood blockbusters that received minor alterations. The latter is at best marginal for the article's subject.

To get a first idea regarding banned films one might look at the china section in List of banned films. In any case the article needs a complete overhaul based on some background research and better sources.--Kmhkmh (talk) 13:55, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there needs to be more scholarly literature. Searching the article title in Google Books turns up many good results. I also agree that we are missing banned films here. Maybe we can have two lists? One for banned films, and one for censor-edited films? Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 15:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This "humbly opinionated" subsection is totally offensive, deriding hours and hours of my hard work which is partly based on a Library of Congress citation. This page reflects the latest summary based on news still accessible to the general public instead of some "scholarly" books that are outdated. I don't mind combining the list of banned films in China with this one so we have a total picture in one location. But to say censored minutes of a film is minor is indeed ridiculous. Tell that to me when you have been actually in the film business, having produced, filmed, or edited a movie, to understand the mountains of hours behind a project. No film in this world should be subject to a censoring political body. United States have some dark history itself, but I am glad we now have a voluntary rating system under MPAA. Until that happens to China, god knows when, we must document every censored movie to the best of our ability.Supermann (talk) 16:17, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]