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Archives (These Archives are still very relevant but the page was so long it was getting hard to open!)--Zeraeph 14:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Archive 2004 Archive 2005 Archive 2006-1 Archive 2006-2 /Archive Feb 2006 - Oct 2007 /Archive Nov 2007 - Dec 2008

Any justification for/against placing the controversy section so prominently towards the top of the article? It is mentioned in the first paragraph of the article as well. Perhaps something more akin to AIDS#AIDS_denialism would be appropriate. (Not to say they have the same amount of denial, just that it is a similar situation a medical diagnosis with controversy). IMO someone who comes to this article WOULD be interested in knowing there is a controversy, but most likely came out of curiosity of the condition. Mwv2 (talk) 05:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This really fucking sucks

I noticed the section has been moved back up top again. I don't see any reasoning on this talk page (unless the above "this really fucking sucks" counts?). I don't want to get into a revert war so just opening it up for discussion again.Mwv2 (talk) 04:40, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Woops, I forgot to check the edit summary for the change. The reason put there was "moving controversy toward the top -- having a section pointing out that many sources think the diagnosis has no validity buried at the bottom of the article means all the text ahead is out of context." I do think that the controversy is an important part of the article, but the main point of DID is not the controversy (which actually has its own article). The controversy is also mentioned in the introduction of this article in this sentence: "There is controversy around the existence, the possible causes, the prevalence across cultures, and the epidemiology of the condition."

Perhaps a stronger rephrasing of that sentence, while moving the controversy section back down, would serve the article better?Mwv2 (talk) 04:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Mwv, at least based on the little that I've seen of this. It seems odd to have the controversy section at the top? Is there precedence for this? For my part, I would put it inbetween epidemiology and history, and also I think that expanding a bit upon the controversy in the lead would be commendable. Carl.bunderson (talk) 00:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per below, I would be open to expanding the lead and moving the controversy section elsewhere, just so it's not intentionally hidden, as the editor who first moved it to the end was clearly trying to do (he originally removed it entirely with edit and talk page comments clearly stating his personal opposition to it). DreamGuy (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure where to find this, what are the Wikipedia guidelines for a situation like this? Is there an amount of time to wait before reverting/changing or should a vote be held? Mwv2 (talk) 07:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Basically, I would suggest not making any big changes until we've come to a consensus on this page. Things like this would probly fit under the BRD process: bold, revert, discuss. Someone does something (bold); someone doesn't like it, and they (revert); then they (disuss) until they reach consensus. No reason to edit war when we all seem reasonable people. I've put a welcome template on your talk page, as no one had before; that should link to policies that might help explain more, and the pages linked will link even more places, etc etc.

Looking at your interaction with Dreamguy from some time ago, I'd just remind you of NPOV policies, and that deleting cited material is really frowned upon. If something has a cite and you want to remove it, please discuss first. Other than that, I am assuming good faith and welcome your input. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed multiple times in the past. The only reason it eve got to the end of the article in the first place was an editor with an extreme POV was first trying to remove all mention of it at all, and then rewriting whole sections to slant the warning. My rational for expecting it to be near the top s that this article is so full of rather extensive details on claims of symptoms, features, treatment and so forth that by the time readers get to the controversy section they've already had the idea that this is a real mental condition pounded into their heads.

The current mention of the controversy in the lead is extremely short and potentially very misleading. "There is controversy around the existence, the possible causes, the prevalence across cultures, and the epidemiology of the condition." is written in such a way to introduce existence but then focus on three additional items that, in order to be controversial, presumes its actual existence as a real disorder. On top of that, "prevalence" and "epidemiology" are such technical words that I think most readers will just zone out the whole sentence. The original version of the lead was much more straightforward and not written in such a way as to ghettoize the claims.

Either the controversy section needs to be at the top so people know to take the rest with a grain of salt, or the lead needs to be expanded to explain enough so people can get the basic concept and then wait for the full details for later. What we cannot have is a version as written by an editor who has straight out argued on this talk page that the idea that it's controversial is absurd and that anyone who doesn't believe in it is an idiot who can't be taken seriously and then ha a token section on controversy buried under a ton of details that become irrelevant if the disorder doesn't really exist. This is a major question of how NPOV is handled. The article used to be pretty good, but was slammed into a major pro-multiple personalities slant maybe a year or two ago that it never fully recovered from. I am open to different ways this may be resolved, but it does need to be resolved and not hidden away again.

And, of course, by WP:NPOV rules we cannot have an article that presents one view and then leaves another view to a separate section or whole article... the coverage of the topic should be neutral all the way through. If the whole article were rewritten to be neutral instead of pushing a view that this is real throughout except for the controversy section, then the controversy section wouldn't need to be highlighted. Sentences such as "The causes of dissociative identity disorder have not been identified" (assumes it is real, and thus has causes) are problematic, especially when "Others believe that the symptoms of DID are created iatrogenically by therapists using certain treatment techniques with suggestible patients" is the only balance in that section -- what person reading this who doesn't already know the topic is going to understand what iatrogenically even means? We need to be clear WHAT the dispute is, so people aren't confused. DreamGuy (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the original version of the lead in the page history? Would it be appropriate to just revert to that version? Or at least replace the controversy sentence with whatever was there before it?

Personally, I would expand on the controversy in the lead and put the controversy section towards the bottom, just cause that seems to be how its done. But as you point out, the best solution is to integrate specific conversies/criticisms into their appropriate sections thoughout the article. That seems to be the way that FAs are moving. So if we're going to overhaul this article, that might be the best approach.

Point taken on the iatrogenically. I had to look it up, and I like to think I have a rather large vocabulary. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DreamGuy, I think you might be confused about who moved the controversy section. I started this section on the talk page and after a while of no response I went ahead and moved the section. My edit summary when moving it was simply "Moved controversy section, suggested this in talk page w/ no responses so went ahead and did it." I hardly think this meets your accusation of calling people idiots or moving it's intentionally hidden, "as the editor who first moved it to the end was clearly trying to do (he originally removed it entirely with edit and talk page comments clearly stating his personal opposition to it)" Still assuming that you just had me confused with another editor.

Anyway I agree with a lot of what has been said here, but I do think there is a danger in making this already long article even wordier. Pointing out the controversy after every sentence that assumes DID is real would be overkill unlesss there is a specific counter point to be made. Even rewording the sentence would lead to a lot of "If DID is real, symptoms are..." which would make the article hard to read. I'm going to give a shot at rewording the intro section, but I will leave the controversy section where it is until I get some feedback.Mwv2 (talk) 22:23, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we're saying "point out the controversy after every sentence". Rather, where there is a specific point, putting it there. Essentially, this shouldn't make it particularly longer or shorter. What's in the controversy section would just be broken up and moved throughout the article. For an idea of what is in my mind, see Islam. I was discussing this controversy idea on another page, and was pointed there. Islam doesn't have a controversy section; rather, everything is apparently integrated into the flow of the article. Length shouldn't increase if we do this. Carl.bunderson (talk) 22:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never said we had to point out the controversy after every sentence, but we clearly have to spell it out in a nononfusing way at the top so people understand it before they get bedazzled with technical terms, and we also need to use language that doesn't push the idea that it's real onto everyone. We can use language that's neutral instead of using language speficially chosen by proponents of the beliefs.

Also, I never got confused about who did what... the person who moved the controversy sectiont o the end and went through trying to remove all mention of it (he even said that was his goal while doing it, and then when he was told he couldn't he pretended to add sources but very much slanted everything) was the person I was talking about who is now banned. I know Mwv2 moved it recently, but I'm talking about the larger problem: the systemic bias in the article.... and, unfortunately, it look like the guy came back with a new account and did all the same POV-pushing again, as I had to revert it again. We're going to have a tough road ahead hammering out a more neutral version of the article when someone is clearly upset that the bias that was already removed was gone and put it back when nobody was watching. We're nto even halfway to a neutral version and they want even that much to go away. DreamGuy (talk) 00:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If demonic posession (ala The Exorcist) really occurs, as many people honestly and seriously believe that it does, a psychologist would call it "Dissociative identity disorder". The traditional symptoms of posession seem to match up with this disorder idea. Has anyone else pointed this out before? Perhaps a section on what various religions make of a possible connection could be written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.173.126.197 (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to the history of this article and the talk page (especially the talk archives) you'll see that the primary person who made the drastic changes to this article a couple years back was User:ResearchEditor. He was writing from an agenda that multiple personalities were real, and that they could be proven with hypnosis, and that they are created by intense childhood abuse. He also actively campaigned that that studies of memories that prove that they can be generated by the psychologist's leading questions, and court cases proving notable examples of multile personalities and "recovered memories" were fake, and studies showing that multiple personalities are not real all could not be allowed in this article. Based upon his edits to other articles it's clear he was a major supporter of the idea of Satanic ritual abuse (in fact his original user name here was "Abuse truth" or something like that), and multiple personalities are a major plak of their belief system.

While checking today, I see that User:ResearchEditor has now been banned from Wikipedia by the Arbitration Committee, for extreme POV pushing originally related to SRA pages but branching out to other articles. He was originally banned just from articles specifically on that topic, but then from all articles when his abusive editing spread (or, rather, when it was identified, as I think it's always been present). Furthermore he was caught using multiple accounts to try to get around bans and to pretend he had a consensus of editors on his side. This article also experienced new editors jumping in to try to support his side despite never editing other articles.

What I am getting at is that the current state of this article is overwhelmingly the result of the work of a now banned editor who abused the system to advance his agenda. What I would like to do is see about re-examining all the areas he edited and the discussions above (and in archives) in light of that fact.

Now that the major problem editor is gone (though he seemed to hand a lot of the dirty work off to someone else who did most of the talking on this page that has not been archived yet -- though that editor clearly states in some of his first comments that he supposedly is not biased, he just supposedly studied the topic for 15 years and feels confident in calling things he doesn't believe in as utter crap -- complete misunderstanding of NPOV there) we have a real opportunity to fix some longstanding problems in this article. DreamGuy (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And, actually, looking again at the comments above, at least one of the editors who showed up here to support ResearchEditor was another editor whose stated goal on this site was to advance the agenda of those who believe in the recovered memories movement, which is another plank of the Satanic ritual abuse movement... which is another way of saying modern witch hunting hysteria. DreamGuy (talk) 18:11, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a bit confused. Did the problems start with ResearchEditor, or before him? it seems he didn't edit the page or the talk page until Feb/Marchish of 2008. But you obviously were on here discussing the page a lot before then. Oh, I just saw the bit about "his first name was Abuse truth"...was he editing this page on that user name prior to March 08?

I don't know how much help I'll be. My experience with medical things ended in undergrad with my 2 semesters of freshman bio. If you think it appropriate to revert back to a pre-POV push version (or to use that as the basis while incorporating whatever is new and good from the current version), I'm quite willing to defer to your judgement. Alternatively, maybe you could return to old topics on this page and I'll help as I can, and regurgitate things that are in the archives. Carl.bunderson (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Abuse truth was on prior to his appearance here as Research Editor... and it look like he has a new identity now a User:Bottca, as that brand new editor managed to somehow make what were presented as minor edits to the article but that essentially reverted all the content back to his POV-pushing version, with the controversy section all but removed and all sorts of misleading and baised soures being presented as facts. He's used other sockpuppets before too. DreamGuy (talk) 23:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who actually has this Disorder, I could care less what the so-called "experts" think. It is quite real to me, thank you very much, and quite real to everyone who has come into my life, whether they've known about it or not. This Disorder, this curse, is all-pervasive, tainting everything it touches. It makes the smallest task an excercise in concentration in excess of what is usually required to complete said task. I have experienced these symptoms since I was nine years old. I never dreamed of saying a single word to anyone about it - one of the things my biological father beat into me everyday was not to speak about anything he was doing to me late at night, and speaking of hearing voices in my head and a great deal of time I couldn't account for would have meant revealing his - OUR - biggest secret. The underlying problem, I believe, would be with memory, something to do with memory, because I may not remember to pay my bills or eat a meal, but I remember every blow, every cut, every thrust, their stink, their taste - every single detail, as if it were happening right now. How do you get over something if, in a very real way, it's still ongoing? Also, there is one personality, Elizabeth, who is responsible for dealing with all of the rage, so that we can function. If she did not exist, all of that fury, enough to kill the entire world . . . I could not handle that without her to take it from me - I have two children that I love very much. While you are all consumed by your petty bickering over experts and opinions and controversies, I came to this site for information regarding treatment options, maybe a list of psychiatrists throughout the country who have experience in dealing with severe childhood physical and sexual trauma, maybe some support groups. How disappointing to find you all arguing about yourselves and your intellectual egos, instead of trying to contribute more meaningful information for someone like me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.238.76.171 (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Saying "I could care less what the so-called "experts" think" means that you're intentions are completely at odds with the fundamental purpose of Wikipedia. DreamGuy (talk) 21:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little surprised to find no mention of Chris Sizemore http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Costner-Sizemore on this page. breadmanpaul (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The link to the Skepdic.com entry on MPD was rtemoved with the rationale of "offers nothing beyond what a featured article could contain" which, to me, doesn;t sound at all plausible. There is a LOT of info on that page, with multiple sources. The only way this article could contain all that same info is if it plagiarized the whole thing. On top of that, the link offers that information in a way taht this article, following NPOV rules, could never do. Our NPOV rules indicate that we should not have links supporting only one major side of an argument and remove links to another major side -- removing a link explaining why many expers think there's nothign to the concept while keeping a link endorsing it as a medical concept is basically taking sides and pushing a view, which we of course cannot do. If you want to remove a skeptical link then we simply canot have a link to the International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation" there as the only non Open Directory link, especially seeing as how that group is far more biased in favor of the existence of DID/MPD than any other source in existence. DreamGuy (talk) 22:13, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would be in favour of removing both - ISSTD is far too credulous for my mind, and I think we are much better off mining skepdic for sources and embedding it in the page than using it as an EL - as pages improve and reliability increases, skepdic becomes less useful. I don't care enough either way to remove or re-insert, but I lean towards just the DMOZ. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules:^simple/_complex 22:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think this should mention that Split Personality is often mistaken for schizophrenia (even though it is not) unless it already does (which is thereason I am asking) 129.3.173.156 (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To all dissociation - or shall I say dissociative? - skeptics out there continuing the denial of DID existence, I want to tell that my personal experiences and my [history] made me motivated to stop denying what happened to me, so be ready to face the consequences of your POV denial of DID. But on the other hand I understand you, it is very hard to accept that being a dream boy is another way to say you are a dissociative boy... — Preceding unsigned comment added by DancingPhilosopher (talk • contribs)

Your personal experiences and opinions are not welcome here. Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX to work out your own issues or to advance your own agenda. Reverting the article back to an old POV-pushing verion of an editor who has since been banned for such behavior simply will not be tolerated, and neither will trying to hide the talk page contents by archiving everything except what you yourself wrote here. DreamGuy (talk) 13:40, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your denial of existence of DID is not welcome here. Wikipedia is not a WP:SOAPBOX to work out your own issues or to advance your own agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DancingPhilosopher (talk • contribs) 13:42, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, funny, you give the link above and say it's your own personal history, but the edit was made by an editor named User:SloContributorSince2005 -- how many accounts are you using here? DreamGuy (talk) 14:09, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's not funny at bloody all, because if you could for a second stop denying dissociativeness you would be able to acknowledge that compartmentalization of traumatic experiences using two or more alters is hallmark of the condition itself, but I don't expect you to be able to tolerate it judging by your heavy investment in keeping status quo, huh?

Ok, Antivenin, a ceasefire (because you seems nice). Tell me what changes do you think DreamGuy can tolerate?

1. (cur) (prev) 2009-03-13T14:00:47 DancingPhilosopher (talk | contribs) (44,194 bytes) (or will he, nay ?!!) (undo)
2. (cur) (prev) 2009-03-13T13:59:39 DancingPhilosopher (talk | contribs) (44,200 bytes) (look, DreamGuy has heavily invested in keeping status quo and is in denial, he won't listen to any changes) (undo) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DancingPhilosopher (talk • contribs) 14:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]