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Pretty cut and dried, and all of this matches up with his work history as well. I do think that Netscape's Rich Site Summary get's a bit shafted in this, but only because Guha, and not Netscape inclusively is given so much credit in this area. Betsy had a great point before about this very issue.[[User:Testerer|<font color="Purple">Tester</font>]][[User Talk:Testerer|<font color="orange">er</font>]] 18:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC) |
Pretty cut and dried, and all of this matches up with his work history as well. I do think that Netscape's Rich Site Summary get's a bit shafted in this, but only because Guha, and not Netscape inclusively is given so much credit in this area. Betsy had a great point before about this very issue.[[User:Testerer|<font color="Purple">Tester</font>]][[User Talk:Testerer|<font color="orange">er</font>]] 18:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC) |
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"© Copyright 2000 UserLand Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved." That is from the OPML 1 page. Ill admit that the second one says he is the developer, but It was clearly copyrighted by Userland. --nirelan |
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== On inclusion of RSS 0.9 author in lead para, etc == |
== On inclusion of RSS 0.9 author in lead para, etc == |
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/Archived debates 1 contains various debates and related attributed quotes regarding the sections Relationship to the Public (at one point called Criticism) and Credit (currently removed from the article) up to December 2005. A compromise was reached regarding the section Relationship to the Public. You are welcome to edit the section, but please read the archived debate first. |
"headnotes"
Some threads below include quoted text with references.
Old threads
These threads are not currently active, but are relevant to the ongoing dispute. Since this talk page is getting large, I am putting a collapse box around them. --Random832(tc) 20:15, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
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Podcastinghttp://epeus.blogspot.com/2005/12/of-bloggercon-and-podcasting.html Dave did not invent podcasting. Please read the link. —Nirelan The text that was in the article does not say he invented podcasting. Your link doesn't say much of anything at all - it provides a link to an audio file, but I can't read that. —Random8322007-01-26 01:34 UTC (01/25 20:34 EST)
Random, read the part that I have quoted "During one of the breaks, I introduced myself and mentioned that I knew he was interested in Audioblogging (as we called it then), and showed him the Python script I'd written to automatically download mp3 enclosures to iTunes. His reaction was that this was cool, and that I should show it off in the Audioblogging session the next day, which I duly did, thanks to Harold Gilchrist making time for me." Don't say that that was not when podcasting was invented unless you can find an earlier podcast.—Nirelan
Random, content from audioblogs are what the newly written program downloaded. So like I said show me an instance of Dave writing a program that automaticly transferd audio content to an mp3 player before the link I posted was written. Read this from the general discussion "Dave said "Pioneered at Harvard just a few years ago, podcasting has been growing at an amazing rate." Therefore all podcasting information should either go to Harvard or Podcasting." Nirelan Here is another link that decscribes him as "campaigning to be thought of as the creator of podcasting" why would you use that term if the man really invented it. Its easy to tell someone that dosen't know what podcasting is like the media that you invented it but its alot hard to confuse people that really create websites. Nirelan
General DiscussionDave said "Pioneered at Harvard just a few years ago, podcasting has been growing at an amazing rate." Therefore all podcasting information should either go to Harvard or Podcasting. How do you differentiate the terms?... UserLand, Manila, Frontier, Radio. Does Manila refer to the city?... What's the origin of the use of each of these terms?... --User:Donwarnersaklad 9 December 2005
Also, the podcasting content focuses too much on Winer vs. Curry and instead should talk more about the establishement of the enclosure element of RSS 2.0 and specific examples Mr. Winer's evangelism of it's use. (Due to my relationship with Dave, I can not make any of the edits directly) --User:Skirks December 21, 2005 Discussion about Dave Winer article, from which Danny Ayers has removed all his own commentsI made a change to the first sentence of this entry, betsythedivine removed it. I left the reversion and tried to make a case, but my arguments weren't accepted by betsy. I have removed my comments because my neutrality of point of view was disputed. Life's too short. Danja 22:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
See note above. Danja 22:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
How encyclopedia-quality sources describe Dave Winer's role wrt SOAP, RSS, blogging, etc.BUSINESS/FINANCIAL DESK Microsoft's New Operating System Is the First Part of Expanded Internet Services By STEVE LOHR (NYT) 1435 words Published: October 22, 2001 ... "Microsoft's pitch to developers is greatly weakened because of that," said Dave Winer, co-author of SOAP and chief executive of UserLand, a developer of Web tools. [3] BUSINESS/FINANCIAL DESK TECHNOLOGY; A Rift Among Bloggers By DAVID F. GALLAGHER (NYT) 1192 words Published: June 10, 2002 "I talk about things Glenn Reynolds doesn't understand, but that doesn't mean they're not important things to talk about," said Dave Winer, founder and chief executive of UserLand Software, whose Scripting News (scripting.com) is one of the oldest blogs. New Food for IPods: Audio by Subscription By CYRUS FARIVAR Published: October 28, 2004, Thursday [4] Mr. Curry's Daily Source Code, a two-month-old show mainly on technology-related subjects, has inspired other podcasters to follow his lead. He came up with the idea for podcasting nearly four years ago, but it wasn't until he spoke soon thereafter with Dave Winer, an early blogger and the inventor of R.S.S., that Mr. Winer was able to modify R.S.S. so that it could support enclosed audio files. I hope this brief collection of NYT material is useful to other editors. betsythedevine 16:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
External links discussionBloglinesRemoved Bloglines from the list of tools that get Weblogs.com's pings. Just got a comment on [7] saying that Bloglines doesn't use Weblogs.com's pings. --Nick Douglas 01:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC) Eye on WinerIn the external sites section the links to Eye on Winer, I'm Not Dave seem to be sites using wikipedia and winers content to generate google ad revenue. I'm for removing them. 70.20.13.215 20:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
"thus I guess you can't complain." is just plain silly. If the comment has reliable information (In fact, it appears to be incorrect. I see no ads.) that is in-line with the goals of wikipedia, then it should be heard. Attacking the fact that is anonymous, while it may be one of your pecadillios, is not grounds for rejecting the comment. Further, anonymous sites linked on the main page are quite a different thing than anonymous comments on the talk page -- wouldn't you agree? 128.148.37.31 21:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Editor 70.109.203.200 replaced the above with the following comment: "In the external sites section the links to Eye on Winer & I'm Not Dave are anonymous but deemed relevant." I reverted this because I don't think it fully summarizes the discussion. If someone wishes to archive and properly summarize this discussion, please do so. Aapo Laitinen 14:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC) DeletionSince Dave did not create blogging or RSS should this page be maintained. I am not against a wiki for RSS, Blogging, or even userland. However, I do not know if simply claiming to be an early adopter of something is enough to have an article written about you. Please do not take this as an insult to anyone.--User:Nirelan
Although Wikipedia is supposed to use independant sources this page is made based on information from Mr. Winers own website. That is clearly a violation of the wikipedia guidelines including sources must be written from a neutral point of view, and the no original researchpolicy. That means it violates two of only three content policies.--User:Nirelan
CompromiseYou're still free to list on AfD, but I've replaced your {{prod}} with citation templates. I think the article should be improved, not deleted. (IMO you've also severely misinterpreted both the NPOV and NOOR policies) —Random8322007-01-23T20:59:39UTC(01/23 15:59EST) PS I only added {{self-published}} because I feel it embodies your complaint, I haven't taken the time to look into the claim itself. - This page shouldn't be deleted - Winer is a person of note ("Almost Famous" as Wired had it). A while ago I objected to certain inaccuracies (see discussion with Winer's friend Betsy above),
Winer played a significant role in promoting podcasting, but podcasting is entirely possible without this "feature" (c.f. Atom). In general the reported information still leans somewhat to that which favours Winer, for example it contains :
There's no mention that another of the three Cluetrain Manifesto co-authors, Chris Locke, called Winer "that asshole" trying to set a Googlebomb with that string. http://www.rageboy.com/2003_10_05_blogger-archive.html Danja 20:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's how Rageboy himself described the phrase he wanted to propagate: "OK, now here's how the game works. Simply place the exact string 'that asshole, Dave Winer' somewhere on your blog." [10]. If you click the post's title slug, as RB recommends, there's a Google search for that exact four-word string: [11] You get 18 supposedly unique results, of which at least 4 are by RB himself. betsythedevine 21:18, 30 January 2007 (UTC) Section removalsThis section was called "Bad faith edits?", renaming it because at this point it seems uncivil (Random832 19:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)) I believe that this edit was made in bad faith, because your {{prod}} reason was that there were no external sources, and the section you deleted contained external sources. —Random8322007-01-23T21:15:05UTC(01/23 16:15EST) That edit had nothing to do with wether or not I think the article should be deleted. Wikipedia is for facts not opinions. When that section provides a fact about Dave it can be included in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nirelan (talk • contribs) "Winer is known as one of the more polarizing figures in the blogging community" seems factual enough to me - whether it's correct, I don't know, but fact vs opinion is a different matter. —Random8322007-01-23T21:42:03UTC(01/23 16:42EST) I fully admit you have sources for that section , but having a source dosent mean something is worth being in Wikipedia. Statements from co workers definatly shouldn't be included.-- Nirelan Is it ok for me to leave the banner there with yours present until the article is fixed?--Nirelan An edit summary would have been helpful - I did honestly think at that time that you intended to go for an AfD (not that you're not still free to do that) with the same reason as you gave in the prod, and were just deleting sections to make the article worse. I still think the section should be improved rather than deleted wholesale, but I'll accept that your edit was in good faith. —Random8322007-01-23T22:53:22UTC(01/23 17:53EST) I will give you the requried five days to fix the article and I'm sorry if I am being too harsh on this subject, but I feel that the article should be deleted until a relible source can be found. I know that to people who have no expierence in the tech world his contibutions seem signifigant, but he is the owner of a company and only promotes products his company uses. Therefore no article should be based upon what he says. Its like making an article about Windows based on speeches from Microsoft executives. If he would have made RSS or Blogging or something I can accept an article being based on him, but can you honestly tell me that an encyclopedia article can exist only upon the words of someone who is trying to sell a product? --Nirelan
What required five days? You don't get to re-add a {{prod}} after it's been removed. If you want it gone, you have to go through the AFD process and actually substantiate your arguments against this article. —Random8322007-01-24T00:45:39UTC(01/23 19:45EST) If I haven't substantciated my arguments tell me one thing that makes this noteable. This is hype perpatrated on the site of a man that owns a company. There is even a whole section pertaining to what his co workers said about him. The wikipedia guidelines clearly state that numerus third parties need to refrence the subject to make it notable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.159.98.208 (talk • contribs) eweek and wired and oreilley don't count? those were all linked from the article —Random8322007-01-24T03:04:31UTC(01/23 22:04EST) Random, the eweek story and the Weblogs.com info needs to be a seperate article. As for the Wired and Oreilly stories I don't know if they should count because as someone that sells tools to the tech media he has a business relationship with these people.-- Nirelan
I gave Weblogs.com its own article and Userland Software has one. This article just feels like it is opinions on the topics of the forementioned articles from Dave. -- Nirelan In that case, you should work to change this article to make it more neutral. Nominating it for deletion is a statement that you think that he doesn't deserve for there to be an article about him, not that you think the article has problems. As for CNN/Eweek - I really think you should check out WP:NN. And, well, of course most of the media references on a tech subject are going to be tech media - I don't think that's sufficient to create a conflict of interest, at least not in terms of notability; these are professionals we're talking about. And "feels like" isn't much of a reason - there's plenty in this article that doesn't come from him. But, even at face value, your complaint is a POV issue, not something worth nominating it for deletion over. —Random8322007-01-24T19:14:44UTC(01/24 14:14EST) Thanks Random, I agree that an article could be made here, but I don't think it should be done by repeating what is in other articles like the Userland Section does. I also don't think we should have opinions of co workers. Read his latest post on Wikipedia http://www.scripting.com/2007/01/24.html#stateOfWikipedia. This article definatly needs the cleaning up I am trying to do.—Nirelan
Relationship to the Public sectionThe history of the article on Dave Winer goes back before my time, but I do know the history of the "Relationship to the Public" section. A year or more ago, somebody deleted a similar section heavy with "original research" and called, non-neutrally, "Criticism of Dave Winer." After a brief edit war (I suggested the compromise of putting the material into the talk page but was over-ruled), Wikipedians suggested a short section of direct-quote criticisms from verifiable sources balanced by a short section of defenses also from verifiable sources. betsythedevine 23:03, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I will remove the AFD if we make this an article about facts and not just a list of friends or enemies Dave has in the computer world. --NirelanTalk I am deleting it because it is simply unpressidented. Please find one other article about a programmer that has an section like that. --NirelanTalk Removed podcasting mentionAn IP keeps removing this:
Please explain this removal (I don't want to get into an edit war or I'd have put it back.) —Random8322007-01-26 23:29 UTC (01/26 18:29 EST)
3RR WarningOutside 24 hour period:
You have not sought a consensus on this issue and you have not addressed the fact that there was a previous consensus on this section. Your next attempt to delete this section WILL be a violation of the 3RR. —Random8322007-01-27 03:30 UTC (01/26 22:30 EST)
User:Nirelan removed the AfD banner from this pageOn 26 January User:Nirelan removed the AfD banner from this page. I tried to explain to him that it's considered vandalism. (See exchange at User_talk:Nirelan and User_talk:EdJohnston#Winer_AFD). He believes it is fine for him to personally close the AfD debate, and he has followed the steps. I will leave it to more experienced people to try to explain to him how the system works. EdJohnston 04:07, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Repairing vandalism to this articleLooking back at this article's pre-AFD state ([13]), I notice that two entire sections have vanished during the recent edit war: "Contributions to podcasting" and "Weblogs.com." I am going to restore these two missing sections from the article as it stood on January 24--not because I contend they were perfect but because that's what was here. betsythedevine 17:14, 29 January 2007 (UTC) |
OPML
The article has nothing on the subject's connection to OPML. I'm not knowledgeable on the subject but I think a sentence or two would be in order. Cardiffman 23:29, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Nirelan, Part the Second
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Latest disputeNirelan replaced the page with the following. I am sorry that I have to take this course of action, but please stop trying to associate Dave with technologies that he did not create. Reverting this article is simple so do not get mad about the change just give people time to read the message than revert the article and fix it. 1. Dave played no role in creating RSS. Netscape did that. 2. Dave was certainly not one of the first bloggers. 3. He did not create podcasting or anything associated with it. Read the talk page. "He was the first to implement the feed "enclosure" feature that made podcasting possible.[1] Please explain this removal (I don't want to get into an edit war or I'd have put it back.) —Random8322007-01-26 23:29 UTC (01/26 18:29 EST) I didn't remove the line, but it is inaccurate and misleading and should be removed, or at least substantially modified. The RSS 2.0 enclosure element is neither necessary or sufficient for podcasting (the same role is covered in Atom and for that matter RSS 1.0). Winer did add this element to RSS 2.0, but the facility it provides was already available in web standards (any URI/link can potentially have a media object representation, and hence act as an enclosure, this can be determined using HTTP content negotiation). The promotion of the podcasting mode of media delivery (in which Winer played a major role) was considerably more significant than any implementation detail. Danja 11:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC) "
02:03, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that Danja's objections were addressed - the line that was removed was later "substantially modified" to de-emphasize the importance of Winer's contributions. --Random832(tc) 02:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Nirelan persists in failing to understand what a talk page is for: This page may state that Dave has done some things that even other wikipedia pages prove that he did not do.
"RDF Site Summary, the first version of RSS, was created by Ramanathan V. Guha of Netscape in March 1999 for use on the My Netscape portal."
"He was the first to implement the feed "enclosure" feature that made podcasting possible.[1] Please explain this removal (I don't want to get into an edit war or I'd have put it back.) —Random8322007-01-26 23:29 UTC (01/26 18:29 EST) I didn't remove the line, but it is inaccurate and misleading and should be removed, or at least substantially modified. The RSS 2.0 enclosure element is neither necessary or sufficient for podcasting (the same role is covered in Atom and for that matter RSS 1.0). Winer did add this element to RSS 2.0, but the facility it provides was already available in web standards (any URI/link can potentially have a media object representation, and hence act as an enclosure, this can be determined using HTTP content negotiation). The promotion of the podcasting mode of media delivery (in which Winer played a major role) was considerably more significant than any implementation detail. Danja 11:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC) " The article does not claim that Dave first created RSS - do you deny that he had substantial involvement in later versions? The article does not claim that Dave invented podcasting. And, you are assuming that your POV on what "one of the first" must mean for blogs is fact. --Random832(tc) 03:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC) References for the 'Contributions to Podcasting' sectionSomeone put up the 'unreferenced' banner in this section. There is a blow-by-blow timeline in History of podcasting for 2003 and 2004 with a ton of references, at least links to blog postings. Some of those references could be brought over here. I think it's reasonable to accept a blog posting at least as evidence of the poster's views, if not as confirmation of external facts. EdJohnston 03:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC) NirelanI'm really trying to be patient with you. You've raised some valid points about how things are phrased, and I've tried to change the article to be more clear about these. I don't understand the view you seem to have that because he wasn't the original author, his contributions to RSS as it stands today are insignificant; or that because the feature he first implemented was only one piece of the puzzle, podcasting should not be mentioned in this article at all. But i'm still trying to work with you - please see the latest version of the article - is there any way you think things should be made more clear? What do you think of the changes I've made to address your objections? --Random832(tc) 04:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC) P.S. please read WP:SUMMARY for why you shouldn't just be blanking sections entirely when the bulk of the content should be split into its own article. Random, I have a problem because in this article you talk about Dave saying he made RSS popular ,even thought it was made and promoted by a major company, yet on the Ramanathan V. Guha page inventing RSS is basicly a footnote. I don't understand how one man telling people to use it deserves more text in an article than is given to the inventor of the technology. I have given you the name of the technology's inventor and therefor proven that Dave did not invent and does not control RSS. He has nothing more to do with it than you or I do yet you still insist on trying to word the article as if he has some controlling connection to RSS. If the man didn't make RSS he didn't make it. The only reason to associate him with it is to make him sound important enough to have an article.
You can say I vandalized the article ,but even after I and other people have told you that these things are not true you merely change the wording a little bit. Bill Clinton can define he word is ,but the definition is still the same! Quit trying to associate him with things he likes.--(Nirelan shout)
I made the article focus on what he did by talking about his company and BloggerCon. However now that even you admit he didn't create blogging or RSS you still want to include those things. --(Nirelan/shout)
You stated "that DOES NOT mean that what he did do is not relevant" and I agree. RSS, blogging and podcasting are not what he did. Starting a company and BloggerCon is what he did.--(Nirelan/shout)
If he was the person that made decisions about RSS or something it would be relavent, but RSS is a standard. No one person makes a decision. Associating him with RSS is like associating Windows with one of the hundreds or thousands of people that have worked on it.--(Nirelan/shout) Adding to the article, removing stuff from the articleDespite the complaints of Nirelan and the repeated vandalism of this article he used to get attention to those complaints, this article errs more on the side of omitting relevant information than on the side of giving Dave Winer too much credit for technologies in which he played a major role. For example, BloggerCon 1 and 2 get summed up in a sentence. And the main BloggerCon article isn't much more informative either about these events or Dave Winer's role in them. When the Register runs a huge flame-war against BloggerCon [14] and [15], they have no doubt that BloggerCon = Dave Winer. But when Wikipedia gives credit, it's to "Dave Winer and friends." For another example, Dave's evangelism of OPML has inspired a lot of new stuff including most recently Placeblogger.com. I hesitate to add this stuff because I'm no expert and it'd be good if some expert who isn't a friend of Dave would do it. But if nobody will do that stuff maybe I will. Random832 has done yeoman work trying to meet the complaints of NIrelan, but I think in two instances too much stuff was taken out. First, Dave's sale of Weblogs.com belongs in this article. Second, I don't think it's appropriate to pull so much information about RadioUserland out of this article. Surely the Bill Gates article includes substantial detail about Microsoft under his leadership? betsythedevine 14:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Reality CheckIMHO- this is probably one of the most troubled articles about a person I've seen. The relentless vandalism and arguments are inexplicable. There are often dozens of edits daily. I think Nirelan should no longer edit this article has that user seems to be one of the major problems. So many claims that user has made without referencing anything. Clearly a personal problem from him. David Winer is a hugely influential and polarizing person, his article should be NPOV and well written, we owe to ourselves and readers to do a much better job at keeping personal feelings out of this article and sticking to published, referenced information. The fact that Someone actually considered this for an AfD is insane. I've added this to my own watch list and I'll definitely try to keep a close eye on its improvement.Testerer 18:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Trying to Improve thingsAs agreed upon before, this article is a mess. I've tried to subdivided and insert refs wherever possible. I think it might need a full edit but we'll try and avoid that for now. In the future- PLEASE DO NOT ERASE or REMOVE information unless you have good reason to do so and can prove your point in it's removal. The discussion page should be used regarding all major edits and if we work together and be fair, this article should be well written and complete in a matter of days.Testerer 19:05, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Tester tell me what I have not proven.
Which RSS? RSS .91, RSS .92, RSS 1.0, RSS 2.0? You really believe that the guy who created Rich Site Summary for netscape gets all the credit for continued improvements and in fact major upgrades to the protocol? To say RSS is lazy, there are many versions of RSS, some Winer and Guha co-authored, others were sole authored by David Winer.Testerer 20:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't think any one person invented blogging, but that should not get in the way of fairly describing the obviously important role that Dave Winer has played in the history and evolution of blogging. To use the word "pioneer" does not mean he invented it. Frankly he should get a short mention on his roll in blogging and everything thing else should go into the history of blogging article. FWIW- Adam Curry, Leo Laporte, Dave Winer, Dawn and Drew and many others were early pioneers in podcasting. Pioneer does not = sole creator and inventor. Testerer 20:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2005/12/of-bloggercon-and-podcasting.html This is perhaps the most insane link I've ever seen. You say that 1 guy created podcasting at a convention started by Winer and others from Harvard, and to prove this, you link to that guys blog where he says he created it? Insane. I can't claim to have landed on the moon when my only proof is my own blog post about how I once landed on the moon.Testerer 20:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Linking to blogs to prove your point is not up to the standard of wikipedia. This information is not correct. More importantly, recent edits that say Winer was invited by microsoft to help develop XML-RPC could not be further from reality. There is a known and much talked about rift regarding this very subject. Kevin marks did not invent podcasting at BloggerCon. You can't link to his blog where he claims such a thing and call it proof. Not only is it absurd it is not definitive. This is a case where stubbornness and vandalism have ruined an article. Also, PLEASE sign your edits. 4 of thesse "~" please. Testerer 19:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
RFCI am considering whether or not to file an RfC against Nirelan regarding this article. Anyone else have any thoughts? --Random832(tc) 20:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC) File it man, he's ruining this article. I've already reported him to an admin I know.Testerer 20:14, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Glaring ErrorThis article gives no credit to David Winer for his important roles in pioneering podcasting. It is a glaring omission as are the details of his work with OPML, and details about the importance of BloggerCon. This article has been hijacked by people who wish to rewrite history. The only mentions of podcasting are his own podcast and a few external links. From the actual Podcast article in Wikipedia.
And I think we can all agree that Dave founded Radio Userland right? So why does he not get credit in this article? Why has vandalism been stopped in the podcast article but not in this article? Again from the "History of Podcasting" article:
This information has now been ported into this article for clarity and fairness. It is entirely sourced and has stood the test of time being the starting point of the history time line in the history of podcasting article. It will continue to be included in this article until it is proven to be incorrect, which would change the history article drastically. It does not give unfair credit to Winer but does fairly, and accurately describe history. Kevin Marks did not invent podcasting in 2003. This goes back to October 2000.Testerer 20:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC) RSS 2.0From the undisputed actual article on RSS in wikipedia "In September 2002, Winer released a final successor to RSS 0.92, known as RSS 2.0 and emphasizing "Really Simple Syndication" as the meaning of the three-letter abbreviation. The RSS 2.0 spec removed the type attribute added in RSS 0.94 and allowed people to add extension elements using XML namespaces. Several versions of RSS 2.0 were released, but the version number of the document model was not changed." RSS 2.0 is what podcasters and subscribers use today, this is why Winer is given what credit he is given.Testerer 20:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Suprise! More Vandalism!Why would anyone put this in the main article? Please prove that he made something important to podcasting. You can't say he created the enclosure becuase that is already available in Atom and URIs. I fully admit he used it but he did not create it. Danja has already proved that.
Seriously? RSS 2.0 with enclosures is what the vast majority of people use to syndicate their podcasts. Someone please, please, please put a leash on this puppy.Testerer 20:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC) 10 References in the Winer and Podasting subsection10 refs are now in the Winer and Podcasting subsection, since this is turned into a shouting match, I thought I'd point that out. 10 refs working to substantiate a mere 3 paragraphs. Good work!Testerer 20:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC) Tester please prove to me that URIs and Atom can not link to media. If at the very least those two standards can do it then Dave did not invent the enclosure. Nirelan He helped create enclosures in RSS 2.0, which is what this discussion should be about.Testerer 06:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC) "URIs" is meaningless - that's like saying that <object> and <embed> have absolutely no advantage over <a> in HTML. RSS antedates Atom. And it doesn't say "invented", it says "first to implement". there is a difference. --Random832(tc) 20:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC) URIs having that capeability is not meaningless because RSS uses them. If Atom did it first he obviously wasnt the first to implement it. Nirelan The question is, was he one of the firsts to implement them into RSS, again, Atom has nothing to do with it. Very few people use Atom for podcast syndication.Testerer 06:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC) Look up the word "antedate" please - I've changed my above comment to include a wiktionary link for your convenience - Atom came after RSS. --Random832(tc) 21:22, 7 February 2007 (UTC) and my point was, "can link to media" is NOT the sum total of what enclosure does.
I see that you now acknowledge that Dave only did it after someone else so I am happy. Nirelan
He most certainly did not make enclousures! Tristan Louis did!
The diffWell - here's the results of today's "storm" - [diff] - I like to think that at least something net positive came out of this - the article is better than it was before. --Random832(tc) 01:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC) When looking at this diff, be aware that some of the info was split out into the linked "Main article"s for the subsections. I don't know how much should be here and how much there, but just be aware if restoring content that it may not have been actually deleted, just moved. 63.107.91.99 02:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
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Restoring information about Weblogs.com
I have just re-added part of the earlier Weblogs.com info that I think is particularly relevant to Dave Winer as opposed to material that belongs only to the Weblogs.com article.
First, the flame war surrounding Dave's ending free hosting at Weblogs.com keeps getting re-visited ( e.g. [17] )--so we might as well try to frame it in enclopedia-quality terms with a direct quote from a contemporaneous encyclopedia-quality source.
Second, Dave's sale of Weblogs.com for $2.3 M made all the major trade papers at the time, and quite a few of those stories are still online: [18], [19], [20] and more. In the small world of blogging and software design, so few of anyone's achievements or successes get such recognition--surely when something rises to this level we shouldn't let Nirelan succeed in deleting it from Dave's biography. betsythedevine 03:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreement
Listen, you said we have to agree that what goes on that article is correct and everyone agrees on what I put there. We all know that some of you are Dave's friends and if you put something like he pioneered RSS you can tell someone that knows the truth that you didn't say he invented it, but you can tell people that don't know the truth that he is responsible for it. You are trying to give things vauge wording so you can associate things with him that he may support. He cleary did or did not do the things I put in the article theres no vauge opinions. --Nirelan Nirelan
What is true that you "put on there"? That Kevin Marks invented podcasting in 2003 at Bloggercon? When the history of podcasting goes back to 2000? Question: what was RSS 2.0 released? What's the difference between, Rich Site Summary and Really Simple Syndication? To say that enclosures existed in another syndication format is true, but ti doesn't change that fact that we all use RSS 2.0 which was initially released as an update to previous versions created by both Winer and others, and RSS 2.0 is what we're all using? He's not "responsible" for podcasting, he didn't invent it, no one person invented it, I think that is why it is both important to keep it that way, and cool that it really is that way! You keep referring to things you "put in the article" well Nirelan, here is something you "put in the article",
I didn't remove the line, but it is inaccurate and misleading and should be removed, or at least substantially modified. The RSS 2.0 enclosure element is neither necessary or sufficient for podcasting (the same role is covered in Atom and for that matter RSS 1.0). Winer did add this element to RSS 2.0, but the facility it provides was already available in web standards (any URI/link can potentially have a media object representation, and hence act as an enclosure, this can be determined using HTTP content negotiation). The promotion of the podcasting mode of media delivery (in which Winer played a major role) was considerably more significant than any implementation detail.
Why would anyone put this in the main article and not on the talk page? Plus it was posted with a bogus name, no sig like someone else I know who likes to edit this article. ;)
To say that you don't get it, would be more than fair. It's a disappointment that you seem to think that some of us are Dave Fanboys. I think that anyone who reads Dave disagrees with his strong opinions as often as they are inclined to agree. You may not know this, but this article is quite old, it's history has been troubled because he does tend to be a polarizing figure. In fact, in much earlier versions of this article existed about a 1/2 dozen quotes by famous people about Dave Winer. Half of them were positive, half where quite critical. That was a great way of dealing with the subject of this article in a real and human way, inherently ref'd by the people who said them themselves.
Obviously you are not a fan of Dave Winer, maybe he's even posted about you and you are upset? Seriously though, stop wreaking havoc on this article because you think it gives him undue credit. I implore you, I think others do also. Read the articles for Adam Curry, Kevin Mark, hell look at what is says for Tristan Louis
"In the early 2000s, Louis was involved in the development community surrounding RSS and podcasting, proposing a number of amendments to the specifications of the time. The proposal included creating a date element for every item in an RSS feed and provided the theoretical framework to distribute data files over an RSS channel, anticipating what is now known as podcasting."
Many people worked on what would become podcasting, nowhere in this article does it say he is the one guy who is responsible for it. You say that Kevin Marks invented podcasting, how could you give him all the credit if RSS was invented by Guha? This article didn't even have the graduation year of his High School at Bronx Science, if you go to that page, he's not listed as Alumni. There are too many big holes in this article to argue over the degree to which he helped/pioneered/created/developed/assisted in the evolution of podcasting, but he did release the 1st RSS 2.0, yes, the spec has evolved with help from him and others, who are fairly credited, but we're all still using RSS 2.0. Please sign your post. 4x~ :) Testerer 06:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
And can someone who knows the history of both, please do major edits to include detailed information on Winer and BloggerCon and the impact and Winer related history regarding OPML, someone should definitely also expand the article for Radio Userland. Thanks to Betsy and others who help improve this article.Testerer 06:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Tester I have no problem saying he supported RSS or something ,but you are making him sound more important than he was. In the opening paragraph it says "Winer was the first to implement the feed "enclosure" feature, one of several necessary ingredients for podcasting at the time it first emerged[3]" then in the podcasting section it says "special "audio" and "video" tags in RSS Feeds to link to specific file types was proposed in 2000 in a draft by Tristan Louis." Tristian Louis cleary did it before Dave. - Nirelan
<Sigh> If you read it again, it says Dave is the one who wrote and released RSS 2.0 incorporating older versions. We all still use RSS 2.0. Tristan Louis proposed the idea yes, but in 2000, not until later, Summer of 2002 was RSS 2.0 released. Sorry but, why haven't you been blocked from impeding the progress of this article? Testerer 17:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
OPML
OPML the article says "Originally developed by Radio UserLand as a native file format for an outliner application, it has since been adopted for other uses, the most common being to exchange lists of RSS feeds between RSS aggregators." Where is the proof that he was the one that made it there? -- Nirelan
the OPML article also mentions, e.g., his proposal for validation, etc - why doesn't that at least qualify for "contributed significantly"? --Random832(tc) 16:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
He's got a point, at least as it stands. Can someone get a reference on Winer's personal contribution to OPML so we can put it in there? (note to Nirelan: a less controversial way to do this would be to write {{cn}} after the OPML statement (and, maybe, delete it after a week if no cite is provided) , NOT to delete it with no explanation.) --Random832(tc) 16:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
OPML was created in 2000 by Radio Userland , during which time Dave was CEO[8] working on centralized RSS news aggregators and content management. He also released a beta OPML validator.[9] and wrote the first OPML 2.0 spec available for public DRAFT.[10]. It should also be noted that in the main article for OPML the 1st "see also" is guess who? Nirelan, "prove to us" who else, besides David Winer created OPML. I mean, Winer does own OPML.org and FWIW- OPML is about outlining content in structured trees, to say its about lists of RSS feeds is not entirely correct. Random He didn't just "propose" validation, he wrote the beta validator[11]. Not mentioning alot about OPML in this article is like leaving out the podcasting stuff. Testerer 17:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree it needs to be mentioned, I'm just saying that cites are necessary since this is clearly a contentious article, even if Nirelan's gone someone else will just come along in six months and it's better to have cites. I did put back in the mention of it with {{cn}}, and it should be fairly easy to find a cite - someone also needs to write a section about it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random832 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC).
I can't believe Nirelan is seriously proposing that Dave Winer is not the author of OPML. That's such a ridiculous claim. The 2.0 draft spec claims authorship by "Dave Winer, Berkeley, California". "I am both the designer of the OPML format and the author of this specification." Both specs http://www.opml.org/spec and http://www.opml.org/spec2 are signed "DW". The claim that he didn't create OPML seems to me to require some extraordinary support. Is there anyone else who claims to have created it? I can't find any such thing. (I wouldn't be surprised if Nirelan claimed that "DW" might not really be Dave Winer now. That seems to be the level of argument here.) 207.180.187.46 18:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I completely agree with the above comment. Dave created and named OPML during his time at Userland Software. Period. I also don't think he can fairly demand that we prove this and that, everyone but Nirelan seems to be citing sources that are publicly accepted and available. Nirelan, if Winer did not author OPML, who did? It dawns on me that all of this technical "Who wrote what" discussion is really tolerant of Nirelan, I mean, let's discuss it sure, but if you go to the publicly available CV for Dave Winer it lists all of his major accomplishments as well as vocational experience, education etc. Very few people as public as Dave Winer are going to claim credit for the kinds of things he does in his CV knowing full well that it can be disputed and cause irreparable damage to both credibility and reputation. All of it can be proven or he'd never post it so boldly, this may be my opinion, but I think it is worth noting.
- 2002: RSS 2.0, sole author.
- 2001: RSS 0.92, sole author.
- 2000: SOAP 1.1, co-author, with Microsoft and IBM.
- 2000: OPML 1.0, sole author.
- 1999: RSS 0.91, co-author, with Netscape.
- 1998: XML-RPC, co-author, with Microsoft.
Pretty cut and dried, and all of this matches up with his work history as well. I do think that Netscape's Rich Site Summary get's a bit shafted in this, but only because Guha, and not Netscape inclusively is given so much credit in this area. Betsy had a great point before about this very issue.Testerer 18:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"© Copyright 2000 UserLand Software, Inc. All Rights Reserved." That is from the OPML 1 page. Ill admit that the second one says he is the developer, but It was clearly copyrighted by Userland. --nirelan
On inclusion of RSS 0.9 author in lead para, etc
I don't think it's appropriate to shift the focus of the lead paragraph of Dave Winer's own article to other people's accomplishments. This should be mentioned briefly in the section of this article about each respective thing, and of course, the RSS article itself (etc) would tell the whole story. --Random832(tc) 16:43, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
If working on it and not only inventing it is important why can't we list the inventor's name? It seems that someone is just trying to promote Dave. -- Nirelan
The inventor's name can be and is listed at the RSS (file format) article, and could be added to the section in this article further down that deals with Winer's contributions to RSS. Listing it up top just bloats the lead para with information that's not directly relevant to the subject of the article. --Random832(tc) 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- It seems like such a short time ago that somebody else was trying to insert into this article the information that Dan Libby "really" invented RSS at Netscape. With all respect to Libby, and to Guha as well, where is the verifiable, encyclopedia-quality source stating that either of them did. I look at the Wikipedia article for Ramanathan V. Guha and I find the only source given for the statement that he invented RSS is his own claim made to Marc Andreessen. This seems like a very slender basis for trying to insert that claim into this article even once, let along every time RSS is mentioned. betsythedevine 17:19, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- I took the RSS article at face value - I've added {{citecheck}} so people there can check these and find more appropriate references if applicable, or otherwise remove the claims --Random832(tc) 17:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- More on the "inventor" of RSS--here's Dan Libby in August of 2000 saying "I was the primary author of the RSS 0.9 and 0.91 spec." [21] Libby makes no mention of Guha's being the "inventor" of RSS, although he does mention the usefulness of "guha's RDFDB and similar tools". To be clear, nobody is claiming that Dave Winer single-handedly "invented" RSS. But the claim that Guha or Libby "invented RSS" is a not-very-well-documented oversimplification of events that took place long ago, at the very beginning of the complex history of RSS. betsythedevine 19:40, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- I took the RSS article at face value - I've added {{citecheck}} so people there can check these and find more appropriate references if applicable, or otherwise remove the claims --Random832(tc) 17:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
"I don't think it's appropriate to shift the focus of the lead paragraph of Dave Winer's own article to other people's accomplishments." Maybe you should list things that he was more than just a "contributor" in the lead paragraph.-- Nirelan
That would be not accurate Nirelan. He was in fact the sole author of many of the formats so to say merely contributor would not be accurate.Testerer 18:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Microsoft's XML-RPC?
I just remove the word "Microsoft's" before XML-RPC in the top of the main article because it is not accurate. XML-RPC was "first created by Dave Winer of UserLand Software in 1998 with Microsoft." This has been understood for quite some time, thus XML-RPC is not "Microsoft's" at all. That's why I removed it. I also added OPML back in with a ref to the article in Wikipedia on OPML that clearly states its origin also. I think Nirelan should stop blanking out data if cannot prove it is false or somehow not accurate.Testerer 19:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Tester, how can you say something like that? Even Dave's site disproves that.
"That's not exactly true. Before folklore becomes reality, XML-RPC was originally, privately, called SOAP, when Don Box and I were working with Bob Atkinson and Mohsen Al-Ghosein at Microsoft, in early 1998.
UserLand had a protocol before that called "RPC", I announced it in DaveNet, and they asked if I'd like to work with them on this. " http://www.xmlrpc.com/stories/storyReader$555 You can cleary see that Userland had a protocol called RPC ,but XML-RPC is something that Micorsot invited other people to help them make. -- Nirelan
Request for comment on Nirelan's edits
Would users, including Nirelan if he wishes to do so, please add their own comments to the RfC page [22]. betsythedevine 20:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- ^ "Podcasting: The latest buzz", ITworld.com, October 27, 2004. Retrieved on 2007-01-25.
- ^ Louis, Tristan, 2000-10-13. Suggestion for RSS 0.92 specification
- ^ Curry, Adam, 2000-10-27 The Bandwidth Issue; server discontinued by Userland, late 2005.
- ^ Winer, Dave, 2000-12-25 RSS 0.92 Specification
- ^ Winer, Dave, 2000-12-27 Scripting News: Heads-up, I'm working on new features for RSS that build on 0.91. Calling it 0.92...
- ^ Winer, Dave, 2000-10-31 Virtual Bandwidth; and 2001-01-11 Payloads for RSS.
- ^ Winer, Dave, 2001-01-11 Scripting News: Tonight's song on the Grateful Dead audio weblog is Truckin...
- ^ http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/dave/cv
- ^ http://validator.opml.org/
- ^ http://www.opml.org/2006/03/04#a278
- ^ http://validator.opml.org/