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OneClickArchiver archived Requested move 19 January 2016 to Talk:Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)/Archive 1 |
Tom.Reding (talk | contribs) m {{U.S. Congress}}: +|subject=person; cleanup Tag: AWB |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=yes|class=B|living=yes|activepol=yes|listas=Sullivan, Dan|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|military-work-group=yes|military-priority=Low|politician-work-group=yes|politician-priority=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|US=yes|Cold-War=yes|Post-Cold-War=yes|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Alaska|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Cleveland|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Law|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Ohio|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject U.S. Congress|importance=Low|subject=person}} |
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{{WikiProject Politics|importance=Low|American=yes}} |
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}} |
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{{Short description|Republican US senator}} |
{{Short description|Republican US senator}} |
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{{talk header}} |
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{{WikiProject banner shell|blp=y|1= |
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{{WikiProject Biography|class=B|living=y|listas=Sullivan, Dan|military-work-group=y|military-priority=Low|politician-work-group=y|politician-priority=}} |
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{{WikiProject Military history|class=B|US=y|Cold-War=y|Post-Cold-War=y|b1=no|b2=yes|b3=yes|b4=yes|b5=yes}} |
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{{WikiProject Alaska|class=B|importance=High}} |
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{{WikiProject Cleveland|class=B|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Law|class=B|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Ohio|class=B|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject U.S. Congress|class=B|importance=Low}} |
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{{WikiProject Politics |class=B |importance=Low |American=yes}} |
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{{dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment | course = Wikipedia:Wiki_Ed/University_of_Alaska_Southeast/Introduction_to_American_Government_(Fall_2015) | assignments = [[User:Nredenshaw2|Nredenshaw2]] }} |
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}} |
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{{refideas |
{{refideas |
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|1=http://katv.com/community/7-on-your-side/lawmaker-pushing-for-less-regulation-has-child-die-at-his-facility |
|1=http://katv.com/community/7-on-your-side/lawmaker-pushing-for-less-regulation-has-child-die-at-his-facility |
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|9=http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/us/arkansas-child-death/index.html<!--Extra Info-->}} |
|9=http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/12/us/arkansas-child-death/index.html<!--Extra Info-->}} |
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== |
== Article photo consensus == |
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John Burns, replacement for A.G. Dan Sullivan, was appointed by Governor Sean Parnell on November 31, 2010, per Legal NewsLine, published the following day. Sullivan was sworn into office as the Commissioner of Natural Resources on December 6, 2016. Burns came to work sometime in the week prior to Monday, 27 December, per the Fairbanks Daily News Miner. [[User:Activist|Activist]] ([[User talk:Activist|talk]]) 15:52, 9 September 2016 (UTC) |
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== White House threatens to retaliate against Alaska if their senator votes against Trumpcare == |
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Sullivan told the Dispatch News that Zinke’s Wednesday call sent a “troubling message.” |
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Needs reference in article. |
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From; |
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https://thinkprogress.org/white-house-threatens-to-retaliate-against-alaska-if-their-senator-votes-against-trumpcare-fe0ffcf5452c [[User:Wikipietime|Wikipietime]] ([[User talk:Wikipietime|talk]]) 13:29, 28 July 2017 (UTC) |
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== Requested page move == |
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The page name is quite incorrect. Based on general standards, the article name should likely be [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. Senator)]] or [[Dan Sullivan (Alaska politician, born 1964)]]. Both redirect to this, so I'm requesting that the page be moved to one of those. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict</b>]][[User talk:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#339900">6</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">9</b>]] 00:35, 8 September 2018 (UTC) |
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== Requested move 8 September 2018 == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[WP:requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''Moved to [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]]'''. Consensus clearly favors the proposed move except for the capital S - consensus clearly favors lowercase ''s''. <small>([[Wikipedia:Non-admin closure|non-admin closure]])</small> [[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 22:14, 17 September 2018 (UTC) |
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---- |
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[[:Dan Sullivan (American senator)]] → {{no redirect|Dan Sullivan (U.S. Senator)}} – "senator" should not have a lowercase 's'. American Senator is never used to refer to a Senator, rather U.S./United States Senator is (in the infobox of almost all Senator articles). Whoever had the page moved to this must not be familiar with general standards for Wikipedia articles. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict</b>]][[User talk:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#339900">6</b>]][[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">9</b>]] 00:40, 8 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::And whoever wrote this nomination is not very familiar with RM discussions and title issues, as the capitalization is changed without rationale. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:44, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::Seems to be a pretty heavy discussion on "S" vs. "s"... That's why I brought it up. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b>]] [[User talk:Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#339900">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)</sup>]] 16:24, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::My point is that ''"senator" should not have a lowercase 's' '' is not a rationale. And it's contrary to [[MOS:CAPS]] guidelines, according to pretty much everyone who has responded here. You can't just propose a move like that without a rationale, or it looks like you just don't know how RM works. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:47, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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I want a vote & consensus on the photo for the article. While the Option A is official, and higher resolution, I believe, with the image being nearly 8 years old, as well as the changes in the look of Sullivan's appearance, especially with his hair going white, that the portrait no longer accurately represents Sullivan, thus I wish to replace it with Option B, which I believe would be better, especially for the purpose of an encyclopaedia. I also believe that a later photo is better for a sitting, serving Senator. |
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*'''Support''' per nomination. The form "(American senator)" is not in use. The form "(U.S. Senator)", on the other hand, is a frequent one: [[James Allen (U.S. Senator)]], [[Henry Cooper (U.S. Senator)]], [[Frederick Hale (US senator)]], [[John Hemphill (U.S. Senator)]], [[William Hughes (U.S. Senator)]], [[George Jones (U.S. Senator)]], [[Richard Stockton (U.S. Senator)]], [[Nicholas Van Dyke (U.S. Senator)]], [[Arthur Walsh (U.S. Senator)]] and [[John Walsh (U.S. Senator)]], to name but ten. [[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 01:29, 8 September 2018 (UTC) |
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**One correction in the above list: The Frederick Hale article uses "U.S. senator" (with dots and a lowercase "s"), not "US senator" or "U.S. Senator". —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 21:57, 10 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::The above examples were intended to indicate that while the forms "U.S. Senator", "US Senator", "US senator" or "U.S. senator" may be found as part of various Wikipedia political qualifiers, the unused qualifier "American senator" has been appended solely to this article's main header. It so happened that nine of the ten examples used "U.S. Senator". The tenth example was moved from [[Frederick Hale (US senator)]] to [[Frederick Hale (U.S. senator)]] one hour after I posted my !vote. [[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 01:39, 11 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::Sorry for not noticing that the difference was because of a move that had just occurred. (That move was certainly an improvement, per [[MOS:U.S.]]) —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 04:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::Does [[MOS:U.S.]] really says it's preferred with the dots? Doesn't look that way to me; I don't have a strong preference either way myself. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 05:28, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::You're right, it doesn't! I think that may have been changed relatively recently, as it does not match my recollection. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 05:58, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::Yes, it changed! In October 2016 it said |
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::::::::"In American and Canadian English, '''U.S. (with periods [full stops] and without a space) is the dominant abbreviation for United States''', though at least one major American style guide, ''The Chicago Manual of Style'' (16th ed.), now deprecates U.S. and prefers US (without periods)." |
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:::::::Now it says |
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::::::::"In American and Canadian English, '''as elsewhere, US has become the dominant abbreviation for United States.''' However, U.S. (with periods [full stops] and without a space) remains common in North American publications, especially in news journalism.[f] At least one major American style guide, ''The Chicago Manual of Style'' (since 2010), now deprecates "U.S." and recommends "US"." |
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:::::::I am pretty sure the words that I put in boldface are false in the current version. I very seldom encounter "US" in ordinary text in publications within the U.S. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 06:09, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::I have started a discussion of that perceived factual error and other aspects of the current phrasing at [[Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style]]. At this point it appears that the MoS guidance will be changing somewhat, although it also appears that it will not express a preference for generally including the dots. One thing that I learned is that the ''U.S. Government Printing Office Style Manual'' says the dots should be included, and so does the ''Associated Press Stylebook''. I think that means that for writing about the U.S. government, most publications will include the dots, since the government itself will include them consistently and they will typically also be included in articles in the U.S. press (although some other style guides now express a preference for omitting the dots). —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 17:18, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose''' uppercase "Senator" but support [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]]. I don't see any reason for this to be in uppercase (and there are a lot of articles using the lowercase version to support this). --[[User:Gonnym|Gonnym]] ([[User talk:Gonnym|talk]]) 10:55, 8 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:*[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=intitle%3A%22%28U.S.+senator%29%22&title=Special:Search&profile=default&fulltext=1&searchToken=5sgxf94b23wi2xhlux9u94h4p This link shows that almost all results are uppercase S]. "Senator" with uppercase is a proper official taught in U.S. schools. "President" w/ uppercase P is the same. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b>]] [[User talk:Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#339900">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)</sup>]] 22:56, 8 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::*Doesn't [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] favor the lowercase? We should be following Wikipedia's guidelines, not worrying about what is popular in local schools. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 18:23, 10 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::*I think it's best to maintain attribution to the fact that almost all titles have a capital "S". Unless someone wants to go on a crusade to move all "(U.S. Senator)" titles to "(U.S. senator)", we should keep the format the same. I don't think [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] does favor a lowercase anyways. This is a title, not a sentence. All official titles would have a caps there. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b>]] [[User talk:Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#339900">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)</sup>]] 20:15, 10 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::*I think the formal title would not use the abbreviation "U.S." For example, I believe "President of the United States" is a formal title, but "U.S. President" is not (and therefore should be "U.S. president"). —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 04:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::*It was a pretty short crusade, but I moved them all. Senator is still unnecessarily capped in a number of list articles, so I may have a "second crusade" coming. So far, nobody has commented on these moves that bring titles into compliance with guidelines, but it could happen. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 01:26, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::* I would support such an effort. "Senator" should be changed to "senator." Just because it's a hard task, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. —[[User talk:GoldRingChip|GoldRingChip]] 01:38, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::* Great. Want to help? There's a list article and a template for every state, and more, and lots of over-capitalized links to them. Maybe we should map it out and announce it at MOS or some place before starting? Or ask for bot help and approval to do this? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 15:05, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::* I suggest first getting widespread or consensus approval via a discussion on MOS page. Then, if/when approved, request a bot do the task. —[[User talk:GoldRingChip|GoldRingChip]] 15:36, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::* Exactly what I was thinking. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 01:48, 14 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::* {{tl|Ping}} me if/when you decide to propose this. Otherwise, I'm going to stop following this talk discussion. —[[User talk:GoldRingChip|GoldRingChip]] 21:20, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::*'''<s>Oppose''' per Gonnym</s>: Looking for a relevant category in the article, I reviewed [[:Category:Republican Party United States Senators]]. In alphabetical order, all the entries that contain disambiguation terms are [[George Allen (American politician)]], [[Mark Andrews (politician)]], [[Charles H. Bell (politician)]], [[Bob Bennett (politician)]], [[Arthur Brown (Utah senator)]], [[Angus Cameron (American politician)]], [[Daniel Clark (New Hampshire politician)]], [[Peter Fitzgerald (politician)]], [[Frederick Hale (U.S. senator)]], [[James Harlan (senator)]], [[James M. Harvey (politician)]], [[Anthony Higgins (politician)]], [[Joshua Hill (politician)]], [[Ron Johnson (Wisconsin politician)]], [[John Kean (New Jersey)]], [[John Kennedy (Louisiana politician)]], [[William S. Kenyon (Iowa politician)]], [[Preston King (politician)]], [[James Henry Lane (Union general)]], [[Mike Lee (American politician)]], [[William Lorimer (politician)]], [[Edward Martin (Pennsylvania politician)]], [[Stanley Matthews (lawyer)]], [[Alexander McDonald (U.S. politician)]], [[James McMillan (politician)]], [[John Franklin Miller (senator)]], [[Jonathan Ross (senator)]], [[John Scott (Pennsylvania)]], [[John Seymour (California politician)]], [[Alan Simpson (American politician)]], [[Bob Smith (American politician)]], [[Dan Sullivan (American senator)]] (this article), [[William Warner (Missouri)]], [[John J. Williams (senator)]], and [[Richard Yates (politician, born 1815)]]. Exactly '''''none''''' of those use "Senator" with an uppercase "S", and [[MOS:JOBTITLES]] would also seem to discourage it. '''''Seven''''' of them use "senator" with lowercase. Also note that including "U.S." or "American" may not be necessary if there are no Dan Sullivans discussed on Wikipedia that have been senators of other places – four of those use just "(senator)" with a lowercase "s". —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 21:38, 10 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::The use of plain "(senator)" might depend on a guideline (or lack of one) regarding differentiation between people in subcategories of [[:Category:United States Senators]] (note uppercase "S") and those in subcategories of [[:Category:State senators of the United States]] (note lowercase "s"). Perhaps postings regarding this discussion at such venues as [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress]], [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)]] and/or [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)]] may bring additional participation. [[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 07:45, 11 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::I looked at the two other cases in the above list from [[:Category:Republican Party United States Senators]] that use "senator" with extra words: [[Arthur Brown (Utah senator)]] and [[Frederick Hale (U.S. senator)]]. I checked the potential for ambiguity if these were simplified to just "(senator)". In both cases, I found politicians of other countries, but no state-level senators, and I think the other countries do not use the title of "senator", so I think both of those could be simplified to "(senator)". I also don't see any ambiguity for simplifying the name of this article to "{{no redirect|Dan Sullivan (senator)}}" —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 16:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::I have submitted a move request for [[Arthur Brown (Utah senator)]] and [[Frederick Hale (U.S. senator)]]. I also included [[John Hemphill (U.S. senator)]], [[William Hughes (U.S. senator)]], and others. Please see [[Talk:Arthur Brown (Utah senator)#Requested move 14 September 2018]]. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 22:50, 14 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' per nom. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/147.126.81.6|147.126.81.6]] ([[User talk:147.126.81.6#top|talk]]) 18:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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* '''Support for U.S. senator''' – "U.S. senator" is used more commonly than American senator. Not sure whose bright idea it was to move all of the politicians to "American senator", but they need to get a lot more people involved than just three. [[User talk:Corkythehornetfan|<span style="font-family: Trebuchet MS; color: #231f20">'''Corky'''</span>]] 22:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support without cap''': U.S. senator, which is also most common recent books per [https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=U.S.+Senator%2CU.S.+senator%2CAmerican+Senator%2CAmerican+senator&year_start=1980&year_end=2008&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CU.S.%20Senator%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CU.S.%20senator%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CAmerican%20Senator%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CAmerican%20senator%3B%2Cc0 n-grams]. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 03:42, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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<gallery> |
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<small>Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. Congress]], [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)]] and [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)]]. [[User:Roman Spinner|Roman Spinner]] <small>[[User talk:Roman Spinner|(talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Roman Spinner|contribs)]]</small> 02:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)</small> |
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File:Senator Dan Sullivan official.jpg|Option A |
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*'''Oppose''': Style should be (politician) and (American politician), none of this (American Senator), (US Senator) and so on. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 04:25, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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File:Dan Sullivan in 2021.jpg|Option B |
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**Yes, normally it should, but in this instance there is also [[Dan Sullivan (Anchorage mayor)]], so we can't use [[Dan Sullivan (American politician)]] or even [[Dan Sullivan (Alaska politician)]], as that would cover both of them. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:16, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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</gallery><span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,maroon,red,darkred,red,darkred,maroon); -webkit-background-clip:text !important; -webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:Mycranthebigman|'''Mycranthebigman''']]</span> of Alaska ^_^ 02:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC) |
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* '''Strong support''' use of lower-case "senator." '''Support''' use of "U.S." instead of "American." —[[User talk:GoldRingChip|GoldRingChip]] 11:36, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Move''' to [[Dan Sullivan (Alaska politician, born 1964)]]. Solves the problem and is common style. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 14:19, 12 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*:That seems like a bad way to go, using two disambiguators where one will do. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 01:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*::'''Move''' to [[Dan Sullivan (American politician, born 1964)]]. Common style prefers American over Alaskan. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 06:57, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*:::Indeed. However, in this instance it distinguishes between two Alaska politicians. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 12:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::They're both from Alaska so there's no point disambiguating that they are from Alaska when we should be using American. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 22:24, 13 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::They're both from America, too, so leave that out, too. Then it's [[Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1964)]]. But they're both politicians, too, so it should be [[Dan Sullivan (born 1964)]]. Or could use [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]] like various others. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 01:46, 14 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::In general, we don't use a DOB disambiguator without an occupation, as it's too ambiguous. DOBs shouldn't generally be used on their own as disambiguators. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 13:29, 14 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::'''Move to {{no redirect|Dan Sullivan (senator)}}''': that seems unambiguous, much simpler than most suggestions, much more recognizable than forms using "born 1964", and it is also used by four other titles in [[:Category:Republican Party United States Senators]]. Moving to {{no redirect|Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)}} would also be OK, but the "U.S." is unnecessary, so [[WP:CONCISE]] would seem to favor simply "(senator)". —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 21:54, 14 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::I'd be happy with this. -- [[User:Necrothesp|Necrothesp]] ([[User talk:Necrothesp|talk]]) 01:42, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::"(senator)" isn't accepted on Wikipedia. That could mean State Senator, Irish Senator, Indian Senator, etc. It is "U.S." for a reason. That's why I requested the page move to that. [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b>]] [[User talk:Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#339900">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)</sup>]] 05:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::"(senator)" is actually used for [https://tools.wmflabs.org/grep/index.php?lang=en&project=wikipedia&namespace=0&pattern=%5C%28senator%5C%29 34 titles currently], so it is accepted to some degree. Yes, it could mean all those things. But "(politician)" could mean all those things and a whole lot more, and we seem to use "(politician)" ''a lot'' on Wikipedia, so what's the problem? The title only needs to be sufficiently precise to disambiguate the topic from the others that are discussed on Wikipedia. ''Irish senator'' is a subset of ''senator'', and ''senator'' is a subset of ''politician''. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 20:34, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::::::Proposal to use just "(senator)" is broadly objected to; see [[Talk:Arthur Brown (Utah senator)#Requested move 14 September 2018]]. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 16:49, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::::::::I don't see it being broadly objected to there – two people have objected, and two are in favor of it in at least some cases (so far). —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 20:34, 15 September 2018 (UTC) |
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Does anyone know what's going on here? Clearly this discussion has moved in several different directions. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 02:00, 16 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support [[Dan Sullivan (senator)]]'''. I greatly dislike the [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]] formulation. I certainly cant support a (born 1964) disambiguation for a sitting member of the [[United States Senate]] unless it were absolutely necessary; that should be the last case and the (unusual) need to disambiguate with the previous [[mayor of Anchorage]] is not enough reason for that. [[Daniel S. Sullivan]] is used by Ballotpedia. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 04:28, 16 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]], without the extra caps per [[MOS:JOBTITLE]] and [[WP:NCCAPS]]. "American" should not be used as it's not precise—the convention is to include "U.S." [[User_talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">Brad</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">v</span>]] 04:37, 16 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support''' [[Dan Sullivan (politician, born 1964)]]. We should completely avoid "senator" and this is an odd enough case to merit using the year of birth as we do for other cases. Although there should be plenty of redirects and he will not be a senator forever. Manual of style is absolutely to use "American" as the demonym. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 06:00, 16 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* '''Support [[Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator)]]''', as per Gonnym and Bradv, as the best of the available options. --[[User:IJBall|IJBall]] <small>([[Special:Contributions/IJBall|contribs]] • [[User talk:IJBall|talk]])</small> 06:59, 16 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' with lowercase senator. Using lowercase for job titles (when they aren't prefixing a name etc.) isn't a fussy Wikipedia guideline, it follows from basic rules of written English. —[[User talk:Innotata|''innotata'']] 02:20, 17 September 2018 (UTC) |
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---- |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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:Official vote for '''Option B'''. <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,maroon,red,darkred,red,darkred,maroon); -webkit-background-clip:text !important; -webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:Mycranthebigman|'''Mycranthebigman''']]</span> of Alaska ^_^ 02:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC) |
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=== Consensus? === |
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== Change consensus; image vote == |
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On what basis could it be determined that there was a consensus? {{u|Born2cycle}}. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 00:18, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* I didn't count, but the vast majority supported the move that was made, and reasonable policy based arguments were made in favor of it, including MOS:CAPS to favor lowercase senator over uppercase Senator. You and one other were the only ones who argued for "politician". --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 01:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*:It may very well be that I was the only one supporting what I particularly proposed, but clearly there were other suggestions not what this page was moved to. I wouldn't claim there was a consensus for the proposal I supported, but that seems to be the case for "U.S. senator" as well. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 06:42, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* I think this close was correct; there was a consensus against the previous title. {{tq|There are rare circumstances where multiple names have been proposed and no consensus arises out of any, except that it is determined that the current title should not host the article.}} The people wanting a (born 1964) style disambiguation should feel free to immediately start a new move proposal. [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 01:58, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*:Hold on — there's a consensus here for a new name, so another requested move at this point would most likely be considered disruptive. If the close was in error, or the discussion needs to continue, this should go to [[WP:MRV]]. [[User_talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">Brad</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Bradv|<span style="color:#C60">v</span>]] 02:06, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* The above close was a consensus on the narrow reading of “American” —> “U.S.” and the lowercase “s”. The above discussion was unresolved on “born” and “politician” suggestions. Call it “no consensus” on those questions, and I recommend another RM to test this in no less than two months. Be sure to make a good, well considered nomination statement. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 02:30, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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**A strong argument was made for just “senator” as disambiguator. —[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 13:05, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*** Yeah, that option too. So many possibilities, all unimportant, the next nominator should not be hasty, hasty repeat RMs are the worst. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 14:12, 18 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* Agree with B2C and power~enwiki and SmokeyJoe on this: Changing American to U.S. is better, and leaving the (lack of) capitalization alone is better; consensus is clear on both points. This does not preclude the possibility that another better alternative will gain consensus eventually, but it hasn't yet. No prejudice against another proposal. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 04:17, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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{{u|Born2cycle}}, I'm asking a simple question here. How can you show to us that there was a consensus for the particular proposal? This was undoubtedly one of the more complicated consensus discussions. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 22:38, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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*:Your question was answered above. The proposed move had the numbers in support, and the arguments made conformed to [[WP:AT]] policies. That's a standard consensus to move. Sure, there were other options suggested, and if someone wants to come back in a few months and try one of them out they are welcome to do so. Until then, though, this move came through in the discussion as the best of the options and we should stick with it and move on to other things. — [[User:Amakuru|Amakuru]] ([[User talk:Amakuru|talk]]) 22:53, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::I'm asking a different question. I would like to say that I am most definitely assuming good faith of Born2cycle and I hope my concerns are seen as respectful. I do not think it has been adequately established that the successful proposal was supported by a consensus, and moreover I was surprised that the request for consensus was closed. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 23:36, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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**Thanks, {{U|Amakuru}}. I'm sorry, {{U|Onetwothreeip}}, but I can't figure out how to improve the answer I've already provided. Well, I can say that the support for the move that was made was clearly higher than the support for the original move proposed, or for any other move proposed. I also note that you're the only one questioning the close decision (and my RM decisions tend to get a lot of scrutiny, which I welcome). --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 23:14, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::How many editors do you think supported the succeeded proposal, out of how many that participated in the discussion? [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 23:32, 21 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::::123, why don't you tell us instead what sort of close you think would have been more appropriate there, so we can get an idea what you're thinking? [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 02:55, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::I would probably have kept it going to make whatever consensus there was more clear. My count is that seven of the fourteen participants gave clear support to the proposal. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 04:16, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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Well, like I said in my close, I didn't count, but now I did: |
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*Supported move to "U.S. Senator" or to "senator" but did not support "U.S. senator": |
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*#{{U|Roman Spinner}} |
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*#{{U|Redditaddict69}} |
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*#{{IP|147.126.81.6}} |
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*#{{U|power~enwiki}} |
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I want a vote & consensus on the photo for the article. While the Option A is official, and higher resolution, I believe, with the image being nearly 8 years old, as well as the changes in the look of Sullivan's appearance, especially with his hair going white, that the portrait no longer accurately represents Sullivan, thus I wish to replace it with one of the following options, B, C or D, which I believe would be better, especially for the purpose of an encyclopaedia. I also believe that a later photo is better for a sitting, serving Senator. |
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*Okay with move to "U.S. senator": |
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*#{{U|BarrelProof}} "Moving to Dan Sullivan (U.S. senator) would also be OK, ..." |
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*#{{U|Necrothesp}} "I'd be happy with this" |
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<gallery> |
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*Explicitly supported move to "U.S. senator": |
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File:Senator Dan Sullivan official.jpg|Option A |
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*#{{U|Corkythehornetfan}} |
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File:Dan Sullivan in 2021.jpg|Option B |
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*#{{U|Dicklyon}} |
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Dan Sullivan '21 (R-AK).jpg|Option C |
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*#{{U|GoldRingChip}} |
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Dan Sullivan speaking in 2022 (cropped).jpg|Option D |
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*#{{U|Bradv}} |
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</gallery> <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,maroon,red,darkred,red,darkred,maroon); -webkit-background-clip:text !important; -webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:Mycranthebigman|'''Mycranthebigman''']]</span> of Alaska ^_^ 21:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*#{{U|IJBall}} |
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*#{{U|Innotata}} |
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:Official vote for '''Option D'''. <span style="background:linear-gradient(90deg,maroon,red,darkred,red,darkred,maroon); -webkit-background-clip:text !important; -webkit-text-fill-color:transparent;">[[User:Mycranthebigman|'''Mycranthebigman''']]</span> of Alaska ^_^ 21:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*Other: |
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::Personally prefer keeping '''Option A''', aside from the hair going white, it doesn't look too different. I probably wouldn't have noticed if it hadn't been pointed out. '''Option D''' as a close second because B looks oddly stretched towards the right. [[User:SuperWIKI|SuperWIKI]] ([[User talk:SuperWIKI|talk]]) 20:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC) |
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*#{{U|Onetwothreeip}} |
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I see 13 participants, of which 8 are supportive or okay with the move, and four more who support something close so for them I think it's an improvement. So, I think these numbers clearly support my closing summary: "Consensus clearly favors the proposed move except for the capital S - consensus clearly favors lowercase s." --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 23:18, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::I support '''Option A''', it looks more professional than the other three portraits. Furthermore, it is of higher quality than the other three. [[User:RandomUserGuy1738|RandomUserGuy1738]] ([[User talk:RandomUserGuy1738|talk]]) 20:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC) |
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::I proposed the move to "(U.S. Senator)" (caps S). While I still think my suggestion was better, the points made demonstrate that the lowercase S alternative wasn't wrong. I am glad that "American" was made "U.S." and have no opinion on Senator vs. senator. {{ping|Born2cycle}} {{ping|Onetwothreeip}} [[User:Redditaddict69|<b style="color:#3399FF">Redditaddict69</b>]] [[User talk:Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#339900">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Redditaddict69|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(contribs)</sup>]] 23:25, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:I motion to close the vote in favor of '''Option A''' ~ [[User:AlaskaGALT|AlaskaGALT]] ([[User talk:AlaskaGALT|talk]]) 13:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC) |
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::I think Necrothesp's "I'd be happy with this" may have been primarily referring to "(senator)" rather than "(U.S. senator)", but I agree that Necrothesp seemed OK with "(U.S. senator)", or at least did not explicitly object to it. Just to be clear, I am satisfied with the outcome and the process. —[[User:BarrelProof|BarrelProof]] ([[User talk:BarrelProof|talk]]) 23:30, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::I second the motion. [[User:SuperWIKI|SuperWIKI]] ([[User talk:SuperWIKI|talk]]) 13:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:Thank you, although I assumed you made some count as you closed it. It's just a more complicated request for consensus process than most are. Innotata hadn't explicitly supported (U.S. senator), they supported "lowercase senator". BarrelProof arguably said they were okay with it but also said it was unnecessary. Necrothesp didn't say they were "okay" with it either, they supported (senator). [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 23:33, 22 September 2018 (UTC) |
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::I third the motion as it proves to be the best looking image of all 4 images [[User:HistorianL|HistorianL]] ([[User talk:HistorianL|talk]]) 15:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC) |
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:: Well, given that a plain '''Support''' is an explicit support for a given proposed move, I think {{U|Innotata}}’s ″'''Support''' with lowercase s″ was just as explicit support for the proposed move with the S in Senator modified to s. Point taken on Necrothesp, but I still see more support for U.S. senator than for the status quo or any other option discussed. —[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 05:53, 23 September 2018 (UTC) |
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:::I can see how you may interpret it as that but given the complexities here it doesn't seem explicit. I agree (U.S. senator) was prevailing but I think it would have been better to let it run for a while longer. Mostly I just wanted to understand why you made the decision you made, I don't intend on pursuing this. [[User:Onetwothreeip|Onetwothreeip]] ([[User talk:Onetwothreeip|talk]]) 02:09, 24 September 2018 (UTC) |
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* I can't follow all of the bureaucratic levels here (some of which I may have contributed to). This is a uniquely bad case to sort out any precedents. Can we just move on? [[User:power~enwiki|power~enwiki]] ([[User talk:Power~enwiki|<span style="color:#FA0;font-family:courier">π</span>]], [[Special:Contributions/Power~enwiki|<span style="font-family:courier">ν</span>]]) 20:49, 23 September 2018 (UTC) |
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Article photo consensus[edit]
I want a vote & consensus on the photo for the article. While the Option A is official, and higher resolution, I believe, with the image being nearly 8 years old, as well as the changes in the look of Sullivan's appearance, especially with his hair going white, that the portrait no longer accurately represents Sullivan, thus I wish to replace it with Option B, which I believe would be better, especially for the purpose of an encyclopaedia. I also believe that a later photo is better for a sitting, serving Senator.
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Option A -
Option B
Mycranthebigman of Alaska ^_^ 02:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Official vote for Option B. Mycranthebigman of Alaska ^_^ 02:51, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
Change consensus; image vote[edit]
I want a vote & consensus on the photo for the article. While the Option A is official, and higher resolution, I believe, with the image being nearly 8 years old, as well as the changes in the look of Sullivan's appearance, especially with his hair going white, that the portrait no longer accurately represents Sullivan, thus I wish to replace it with one of the following options, B, C or D, which I believe would be better, especially for the purpose of an encyclopaedia. I also believe that a later photo is better for a sitting, serving Senator.
-
Option A
-
Option B
-
Option C -
Option D
Mycranthebigman of Alaska ^_^ 21:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- Official vote for Option D. Mycranthebigman of Alaska ^_^ 21:51, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- I support Option A, it looks more professional than the other three portraits. Furthermore, it is of higher quality than the other three. RandomUserGuy1738 (talk) 20:11, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
- I motion to close the vote in favor of Option A ~ AlaskaGALT (talk) 13:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I second the motion. SuperWIKI (talk) 13:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
- I third the motion as it proves to be the best looking image of all 4 images HistorianL (talk) 15:15, 25 April 2023 (UTC)