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This article was nominated for '''''[[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deletion]]''''' on [[2005-12-25]].
* <nowiki>[[Best Buy#2006 Christmas controversy|Best Buy Corporation]]</nowiki> The anchor (#2006 Christmas controversy) [[Special:Diff/179721598|has been deleted]]. <!-- {"title":"2006 Christmas controversy","appear":{"revid":148677508,"parentid":148106718,"timestamp":"2007-08-02T08:13:40Z","removed_section_titles":["2006 \"Christmas\" controversy"],"added_section_titles":["2006 Christmas controversy"],"replaced_anchors":{"2006 \"Christmas\" controversy":"2006 Christmas controversy"}},"disappear":{"revid":179721598,"parentid":179684404,"timestamp":"2007-12-23T03:22:47Z","removed_section_titles":["2006 Christmas controversy"],"added_section_titles":["Christmas controversy"],"replaced_anchors":{"2006 Christmas controversy":"Christmas controversy"}},"very_different":false,"rename_to":"Christmas controversy"} -->
The result of the discussion was speedy keep. <!-- please do not add bolding to speedy keep here: this breaks many places where it is already specified -->
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An archived record of this discussion can be found [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/War on Christmas|here]].
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This article was nominated for '''''[[Wikipedia:Deletion policy|deletion]]''''' on [[2005-12-26]].
The result of the discussion was speedy keep. <!-- please do not add bolding to speedy keep here: this breaks many places where it is already specified -->
An archived record of this discussion can be found [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/War on Christmas2|here]].
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== POV? ==
"as well as several other prominent retailers that practiced similar downgradings of the holiday."
This seems a bit...loaded? Downgrading of the holiday? It sounds like an assumption of deliberate, well, downgrading of the holiday. As opposed to, say, "...that practiced similar obscuration of the holiday."
Maybe not even obscuration. But it sounds (to my ears) like an implication of intent to insult Christmas (when my cynical mind would suggest that, more likely, it is an attempt not to alienate any customer base and thus lose money)
Thoughts?
[[User:FangsFirst|FangsFirst]] ([[User talk:FangsFirst|talk]]) 08:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I would go with "obscuration" rather than "downgrading." Most retailers will gladly take (and some even rely on) the massive upsurge in shopping in November and December related to Christmas, but some (Target is a recent example, at least from a few years ago) have been known to tone down or even eliminate decorations (excepting those for sale) and ambient music. [[User:HappyJake|HappyJake]] ([[User talk:HappyJake|talk]]) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Obscuration demonstrates the frustration that some feel without making it sound like an intentional insult, which it is not. [[User:Gtbob12|Gtbob12]] ([[User talk:Gtbob12|talk]]) 15:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

If everyone has agreed that "downgrading" ought to be replaced by "obscuration", why hasn't anyone done it yet? Regardless, I'm going to change it. [[User:Ginnna|<font style="background: #CD5555" face="Century Gothic" color="#FFFFFF">'''Ginnna'''</font>]] 02:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

== Other holidays ==

I think the article should note the other holidays occuring at the same time including Hanukkah, Yule, Kwanza, and im sure theres some more, and that the midwinter period is a traditional time for celebrations. also a lot of Christmas elements are actually taken from the other holidays. Eg Christmas trees, holy, etc from Yule, Christmas lights/ candles from Hanukkah. <small>—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/87.194.30.174|87.194.30.174]] ([[User talk:87.194.30.174|talk]]) 02:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:What does this have to do with Christmas-related controversy? Suggest this at [[Christmas/holiday season]], not here.. &mdash; [[user:CrazyInSane|<sup>`</sup>''C''<small>RAZY</small>`(<small>lN</small>)`''S''<small>ANE</small><sup>`</sup>]] 05:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This isn't about the history of Christmas... <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/24.23.136.203|24.23.136.203]] ([[User talk:24.23.136.203|talk]]) 21:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

==Request for comment on new edits==

I have [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Christmas_controversy&diff=231282983&oldid=228342992 made extensive changes] to the entirety of this article (minus the "Historical controversy" section), and I believe they're for the better. I am requesting external comment to determine if the edits suit the NPOV of the article, and to suggest improvements if needed. Thanks. &mdash; [[user:CrazyInSane|<sup>`</sup>''C''<small>RAZY</small>`(<small>lN</small>)`''S''<small>ANE</small><sup>`</sup>]] 19:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

:Altho' the lead does mention Britain, it doesn't seem to feature prominently in the body of the article. There has been quite a bit of fuss about it here, with local authorities inventing something called Winterval, & Red Cross charity shops banning Christmas cards. Such behaviour has been criticized by Muslims among others, & the Red Cross objection to Christian symbols is absurd, as they are one themselves. I can't cite any sources for this, tho'. [[User:Peter jackson|Peter jackson]] ([[User talk:Peter jackson|talk]]) 11:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

::It all seems a wee bit pro-Christmas to me. Having lived in a very multicultural city, i'm used to having decorations etc in a combined display for Xmas, honnuka, Diwali. I'd never heard any complaints about this before - it made the holiday season longer and more fun! There are no notable groups supporting the idea of replacing Xmas? Eg. I'm sure i've read editorials, both pro and anti, in UK newspapers when Birmingham was having "Winterval" one year.
::Also i agree with the above that mentioning the overlapping holidays would help inform the reader and put this into context. If the holiday was ONLY about Xmas there would be no reason to downplay it, apart from the consumerist reasons given. Social inclusivity and unfairness in having government pay for holiday events for only one religion is also a factor. The name "Winterval" covered Xmas and Diwali, so the council only had to put up one set of non-religion-specific decorations. It's not only about "political correctness gone mad, and pro- and anti- christian biases. [[User:Yobmod|Yobmod]] ([[User talk:Yobmod|talk]]) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
That sounds fair- one Super Winter Holiday, combining all the various stuff celebrated by people in the area. I've got no problem with that. However, it's when they've got "Happy Holiday" and it's clearly meaning Christmas (Santa and reindeer, nothing from other holidays), then that is when it's trouble. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/199.8.26.10|199.8.26.10]] ([[User talk:199.8.26.10|talk]]) 20:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== pov tag ==

This article is entirely one-sided. It frequently cites the [[American Family Association]], which is as far from a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] as it is possible to get. It uses isolated examples of people claiming to be atheist, Muslim, etc., to support the dubious conclusion that vast numbers of non-Christians are on board with this word policing. (And let's be clear, the word police are not the ones who choose to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", the word police are the ones who get their panties all up in a bunch of somebody ''else'' says "Happy Holidays" to ''them''!) It contained at least one glaring inaccuracy -- corroborating AFA's claim about Home Depot, which was exposed as a falsehood. The only time it refers to the motivations of those who wanted to use the more inclusive "Holiday" instead of "Christmas", it says that they are motivated by [[political correctness]], which is a loaded term with negative implications. And it does not ''at any time'' present the other side of the argument, that the people who are saying this are ''imagining the whole damn thing''. --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

:Bah, I am trying to fix the article but I think I feel too strongly about this issue to do so neutrally. On a personal note, my wife and I are both atheists, but I come from a Christian tradition and she comes from a Jewish tradition, so we are proud to celebrate ''both'' Christmas and Chanukah in December, as a way of honoring our roots and celebrating tradition. So for my family, "Happy Holiday'''s'''" really is the most accurate -- and when people act like it's somehow offensive to say "Happy Holidays," I really want to kick them in the balls with a steel-toed boot. --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 20:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

== Objectors ==

It seems odd to me, when giving examples of people "fighting" the War on Christmas, it mentions ''one'' Athiest, ''one'' Muslim, and ''two'' Jews... as though all those groups only have those specific people on that side. Just seems a little odd, right? One Muslim out of a billion? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/199.8.26.10|199.8.26.10]] ([[User talk:199.8.26.10|talk]]) 03:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:That's all that the citations support. Perhaps the assertion should be removed altogether, if the facts supported by the citation seem odd and out of place. --[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 21:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

==Discussion over neutrality of article==
::I think the point of that assertion is that it is not only right-wing Christian fundamentalists that concern themselves with this issue. I know several non-Christians personally (including myself) that share that view. Perhaps I could find additional citations. To add, I've done some changes to the recent additions by Jaysweet and an anonymous IP user. Let's discuss any further issues here. &mdash; [[user:CrazyInSane|<sup>`</sup>''C''<small>RAZY</small>`(<small>lN</small>)`''S''<small>ANE</small><sup>`</sup>]] 03:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Despite the fact that we find ourselves on opposite sides of the issue, I actually agreed with most of your recent edits. You have been fairly measured in your modifications to my edits, e.g. you are probably correct to put "claimed" rather than "revealed" in the paragraph talking about AFA's lies about Home Depot... since nobody really has solid proof either way.
:::I still have a problem with the "atheists, Muslims, and Jews" section, though. I see ''one'' person claiming to be an atheist who supports this. Frankly, I think just about everyone who isn't a fundie who thinks there is a "War on Christmas" is terribly misinformed -- I mean, people say Merry Christmas everywhere I go, there are plenty of Christmas displays, etc.... But whatever. I'll get off my [[WP:SOAP|soapbox]] now.
:::I might be okay with wording to the effect of "Those who oppose this perceived censorship of Christmas include a number of individuals and organizations who adhere to a religion or philosophy other than Christianity", with the four cites all following that sentence. I am just not comfortable with saying that atheist'''s''' and Muslim'''s''', when there is only a single citation for each. I don't want to give [[WP:UNDUE|undue weight]] to the few scattered atheists who have bought into this.
:::What do you think? ---[[User:Jaysweet|Jaysweet]] ([[User talk:Jaysweet|talk]]) 22:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
::::Agreed. I have incorporated these changes. Just so you know, I have basically been the sole editor of this article for several months now, and I've been trying to edit it as neutrally as possible (albeit including any information that can be cited), so sorry if I came off as a bit snappy or possessive. And though the article may seem one-sided, this is an article about Christmas ''controversy'', so there will generally be more [[WP:CITE|sources of information]] about those who ''perceive'' a "censorship" or controversy, rather than sources about those who perceive nothing. But regardless of my personal POV, please rest assured that I've been pretty adamant in ensuring [[WP:POV|neutrality]]. I very much welcome any sourced material you may find from the opposing argument.

::::I'm '''very''' glad to see someone else editing here, and glad to see they are on the other side of the argument. We can certainly work together to make this article as neutral as possible. If you see any other issues or have new material, please feel free to discuss it all here, and together, we can ensure to steer the article more toward neutrality and professionalism. I understand that the "other side" might not be covered enough in the article, so I'd be glad to have someone assist in filling the gap... with sources of course :). Thanks for your interest in the article (haha, I'm saying this as if it's MY article).

::::Also in case you were wondering, I removed the "''[[citation needed]]''" tag from the "[[Spring Holiday]]" mention because it links to an article that explains the situation. &mdash; [[user:CrazyInSane|<sup>`</sup>''C''<small>RAZY</small>`(<small>lN</small>)`''S''<small>ANE</small><sup>`</sup>]] 03:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


== non-controversy Christmas cancelation ==
==links==
If the article is about Christmas we don't need all of this links pointing to other non-related crap. For example, why the hell is the word "pet" linked? We also don't need stuff like "New York City, "Greek Letter" "Public schools" "English" "Spanish" "Inclusive" "petitions" "retail" "mainstream media" and "customer service" linked. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/71.136.48.194|71.136.48.194]] ([[User talk:71.136.48.194|talk]]) 09:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


An IP editor has been trying to edit-war in Boris Johnson "canceling Christmas" on this page, and while they have finally stopped using that terminology, this insertion has a basic problem: the [https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/tier-4-rules-london-covid-christmas-lockdown-b390412.html ''Evening Standard'' source being used] doesn't show any controversy in the move. It does say that some health folks don't feel the new strain is as deadly as they claim, but there's no statement from them against the restrictions. The only non-Johnson statement on the restrictions comes from [[Keir Starmer]], who, while finding the chance to snipe against the government's inconsistency, supports following these regulations. There may well be controversy over this move, but if so, it isn't in this source. --[[User:NatGertler|Nat Gertler]] ([[User talk:NatGertler|talk]]) 20:08, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
==Secularization of Easter==
There are similar controversies about the secularization of [[Easter]], which is more important than Christmas from a liturgical point of view. It would be interesting if we could have some information on that too. [[User:ADM|ADM]] ([[User talk:ADM|talk]]) 00:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
:This article already exists, it's called [[Spring Holiday]]. I lobbied to have the title changed to ''Easter controversy'' to fall in line with this article, but consensus was not reached in favor of that &mdash; [[user:CrazyInSane|<sup>`</sup>''C''<small>RAZY</small>`(<small>lN</small>)`''S''<small>ANE</small><sup>`</sup>]] 03:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems ironic to me that someone would mention the secularization of what was originally a pagan holiday. Christians "stole" this one from the pagans (along with many of the holiday's traditions) and now complain that the holiday is becoming secular (which I think you define as anything non-Christian). The same irony exists with this Christma controversy. I wish more Christians would study the history of their religion. It's a rich and interesting history and it doesn't detract much from modern orthodox Christian ideaology.


== [[Christmas truce]] <nowiki>{{redirect}}</nowiki> ==
== '''god condems cristmas tree''' ==


Would be reasonably come here trying to come to find information on [[Christmas Truce]]? Even with the term [[War on Christmas]], I don't really see how that gets interpreted as what soldiers did in World War I on Christmas. I'll leave it in for now because it's not harmful, but if any other editors have input on whether or not it's a probable enough accidental search to have a hatnote for it. <span style="background: #e5a5a5;">[[User:Snood1205|snood1205]]<sup>([[User talk:Snood1205|Say Hi! (talk)]])</sup></span> 19:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
The King James Version reads: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." i think its from jeriamah <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/94.193.42.11|94.193.42.11]] ([[User talk:94.193.42.11|talk]]) 00:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


== worldwide... ==
== Gregorian calendar ==
The article includes the claim: "As early as 336, Roman Christians observed Christmas on 25 December of the Gregorian calendar", which is logically impossible as the Gregorian calendar was not introduced until 1582 (by Pope Gregory), more than a thousand years later.
the article currently has some sort of box that asks for worldwide/inclusive coverage of the issue. I would assume whoever put it there can remove it. I've never come into contact with this issue on a major scale outside North America. Most traditionally/historically Christian countries either have an established state church or lack any explicit non-establishment clause. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/75.172.184.105|75.172.184.105]] ([[User talk:75.172.184.105|talk]]) 03:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
[[Special:Contributions/86.11.96.95|86.11.96.95]] ([[User talk:86.11.96.95|talk]]) 16:34, 18 December 2021 (UTC)


== American Family Association ==
Stop using the words "diversity" and "diversify". They are words used so often they have lost their meaning. Pluralism, I think would be a good replacement. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/84.71.66.154|84.71.66.154]] ([[User talk:84.71.66.154|talk]]) 14:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
Lots of content and citations to the [[American Family Association]], which is not a reliable source, and in most cases, not an actual controversy, but rather a manufactured controversy that AFA invented. All of these should be removed and replaced with appropriate secondary sources if at all possible. This strange idea that a partisan, activist organization gets to invent any controversy they want and then to use citations from the same org to talk about the controversy they invented needs to stop. That's not how things work. [[User:Viriditas|Viriditas]] ([[User talk:Viriditas|talk]]) 02:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 20:58, 12 February 2024

non-controversy Christmas cancelation[edit]

An IP editor has been trying to edit-war in Boris Johnson "canceling Christmas" on this page, and while they have finally stopped using that terminology, this insertion has a basic problem: the Evening Standard source being used doesn't show any controversy in the move. It does say that some health folks don't feel the new strain is as deadly as they claim, but there's no statement from them against the restrictions. The only non-Johnson statement on the restrictions comes from Keir Starmer, who, while finding the chance to snipe against the government's inconsistency, supports following these regulations. There may well be controversy over this move, but if so, it isn't in this source. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:08, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Christmas truce {{redirect}}[edit]

Would be reasonably come here trying to come to find information on Christmas Truce? Even with the term War on Christmas, I don't really see how that gets interpreted as what soldiers did in World War I on Christmas. I'll leave it in for now because it's not harmful, but if any other editors have input on whether or not it's a probable enough accidental search to have a hatnote for it. snood1205(Say Hi! (talk)) 19:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gregorian calendar[edit]

The article includes the claim: "As early as 336, Roman Christians observed Christmas on 25 December of the Gregorian calendar", which is logically impossible as the Gregorian calendar was not introduced until 1582 (by Pope Gregory), more than a thousand years later. 86.11.96.95 (talk) 16:34, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

American Family Association[edit]

Lots of content and citations to the American Family Association, which is not a reliable source, and in most cases, not an actual controversy, but rather a manufactured controversy that AFA invented. All of these should be removed and replaced with appropriate secondary sources if at all possible. This strange idea that a partisan, activist organization gets to invent any controversy they want and then to use citations from the same org to talk about the controversy they invented needs to stop. That's not how things work. Viriditas (talk) 02:56, 10 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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