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I looked up this girl not knowing anything about her, because the name keeps being mentioned on Twitter. Figured I'd do some research. This information is written so obviously against her it's crazy. The slant is disturbing to say the least, without even knowing her. Very disingenuous. 24.208.23.248 (talk) 17:32, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Chloe Cole has absolutely no notability outside of traveling across the US to support bans on gender-affirming care, therefore, the article is written based on that. How is the article specifically slanted? It consists entirely of factual content. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:40, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep it's stunningly biased. It's amazing how a writer can impute nefarious intent with the slightest twist of a phrase or use of qualifiers. For example:

"According to her testimony..." "Chloe claims" "Chloe has said" "

Why the ubiquitous tone of skepticism over every detail of her life?

Her 'activism' section is uncommonly detailed for someone of her stature. It amounts to a carefully cherry-picked series of incidents (presented with a specious air of objectivity) casting Chloe in a certain light. Lots of guilt-by-association (Proud Boys etc.).

Chloe is a contentious, outspoken figure in a heated culture war, who wades into controversial territory that many people find upsetting. It is the job of encyclopedists, however, to broach such topics with some measure of balance, objectivity and poise. I have my doubts about whether contributors such as "TheTransarchist" have any interest in impartiality.

It is the job of Twitter users, newspaper columnists and future historians to judge Chloe's character. Not Wikipedia authors. 87.114.99.183 (talk) 20:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I did not introduce the skeptical language. Her activism section is not "cherry-picked" (for a start, that's oxymoronic with "overly-detailed"), but a faithful summary of all the reporting done by reliable sources. She has no notability outside of speaking against transgender healthcare, which she is very notable for. If there are sources we missed, feel free to bring them up here. Being trans does not make one inherently biased, but it's interesting you think so (and it's TheTranarchist fyi). Our job as editors is to faithfully summarize the reliable sources that mention her say, which we have. There is no editorializing on her character, merely factual descriptions of her activities. Twitter users are not a recognized judge of character nor a source for Wikipedia, we will include the views of future historians when they come, and the article is already based off of newspaper columnists. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Chloe Cole" (if that is even her real name) seems incredibly suspicious. All we know about her is her unverified testimony to far-right websites and in state legislatures. Her parents have not confirmed any of it, nor have any classmates or other family members. She claimed to have an Instagram, but where is it? Her first tweet was in October 2022. For a child of her age, this is wildly bizarre. User:Bharel, I hope this explains my motivations. If you have any suggestions for how to improve the article to include this (in my view, warranted) skepticism, please let me know. 99.65.214.73 (talk) 02:51, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I get it. But Wikipedia doesn't run on rumors: everything should be verified with reliable sources. If you think someone's sus, that's a discussion for a platform other than Wikipedia. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

But the sources in the article aren't reliable! For the most part, they're the far-right websites that have interviewed "Cole" and given credence to her story, as well as outlets like Reuters that should really know better. We can't verify any of this at all. I have my own suspicions, but the article should only say what we can verify: the name she uses and what she claims, as well as what she has done to smear the trans community and take away our care. 99.65.214.73 (talk) 03:00, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For the most part this article actually relies on LGBTQ media, progressive media, and some center-left/center-right media, though it often includes that she appeared in right-wing platforms, that is sourced to reliable sources noting she did rather than the unreliable sources themselves. While it's true Reuters coverage was ridiculously un-thorough, and I'll admit to my own heavy skepticism about her story as well, reliable sources do actually tend to take her name and story at face value. I believe one or two state it was her name at birth. Trust me, I read through over 100 articles to write this lol. And Occam's razor suggests her story is true, since regardless of whether she genuinely was not happy with her transition or is an ideological detransitioner, her story could have been weaponized by the far-right all the same, no need for her to fake anything, which would probably have been caught by at least one of the reliable sources by now. If some reliable sources express doubt we'd have no problem including them, and in Reception some doubt over parts of her story is covered slightly, but until a sizeable enough number of them do we have to take her name and some details of her story at face value. In regards to her age and her Instagram account, I don't find it too bizarre, as the account was her personal one from when she was a minor and not particularly noteworthy to explicitly name (and that it "made her trans" is attributed to her rather than said in wikivoice). Also, the right has been searching for the golden goose of a detransitioner who actually transitioned as a minor for ages, so it's unsurprising they found at least one.

@Bharel could you please self-revert for the reasons above? I'm sympathetic to the skepticism but the reliable sources as they stand don't warrant it in wikivoice. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 16:16, 13 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Self revert what may I ask? I have undone my revert right after reverting as I wasn't sure about that one. Bar Harel (talk) 01:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Bharel Sorry, to clarify I was referring to the revert of the revert. The original version factually states her name as Chloe Cole, an IP editor changed it say her name is only allegedly Chloe Cole, you reverted then reverted your revert. I appreciate the skepticism but even reliable sources take her name and story at face value so I think we have to as well. I also worry it cheapens the article, as I haven't seen any other article express such skepticism about a public figure's name in wikivoice. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Gender-affirming care is supported by health institutes such as the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Columbia University Irving Medical Center, and the Yale School of Medicine, who have spoken out against such bans. Organizations such as the American Civil Liberties Union have also spoken out against such bans."

Why is this included in the article? It's an article about a person, not about gender affirming care. Icanhasgramr (talk) 03:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I have removed the paragraph from the article lead. Elli (talk | contribs) 01:39, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that paragraph could be moved to reception? Many sources comment on the medical groups and human rights groups opposing bills she's actively supported, so it seems worth mentioning. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As there seems to be some guilt by association without actual association, I removed one mention Proud Boys and rephrased another as she commented on their activities that day. If there actions are relevant, they should be covered elsewhere, not in the midst of a biography with unclear connection to the subject beyond proximity.Slywriter (talk) 21:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for trimming it down! The second two reductions I have no notes, for the first, the Nashville Matt Walsh rally, that the Proud Boys were in attendance received widespread press attention which explicitly called out their presence and numbers. A few sources that I believe are in the article mentioned it but I hadn't referenced them, I can't remember if out of oversight or a desire not to over-cite (pun unintended). The Tennessee Lookout (currently uncited) source mentions their attendance and that Cole appeared as well, stating that The crowd was a mostly-white mix of the Walsh faithful, transgender rights allies, members of the white nationalists Proud Boys and vocal individuals preaching on Christianity and sin. As does Media Matters for America (currently citation 14) which states Footage from the rally, which included speeches from Walsh, Sen. Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), and other media figures and local politicians, shows that it attracted a cadre of extremists, including members of the violent Proud Boys extremist group and multiple protesters brandishing signs explicitly calling for violence against medical professionals. More covered it, but those were the ones who also noted Cole's attendance that I found with a quick search. Would it be alright to re-add Among the crowds were dozens of the far-right group the Proud Boys, who were eventually separated from the crowd of mostly counter-protestors by state troopers in addition to the above sources? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:31, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My issue is that she wasn't the organizer, so don't see how the crowd acted and who was present are relevant and due in her biography.

With that said, if you re-add, I'm not going to revert as I want to see if I can find any similar situated BLPs that have Good or Featured status to see how proximate actions of sympathetic, but not allied groups were covered. Andy Ngo is only one I could think of off-hand to look at and is not Good or Featured. In his article, various far-right groups are prominently mentioned because of direct interactions. Slywriter (talk) 23:59, 15 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Given her comments on them just practicing their free speech and not being able to do anything about their attendance in other cases, I think it's important to document that they're repeat attendees. It's one thing if some proud boys show up at one rally you're the speaker for, another if they've shown up at several. I've re-added the Nashville mention and added the fact that Cole was the keynote speaker at the event. Also, any luck finding similar BLPs for us to reference? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 20:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

seems to be entirely historical and nothing stands out as being similar. Haven't looked at good yet, will in a few hours. Slywriter (talk) 20:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are drawing a connection between Chloe Cole and the Proud Boys that does not appear to be supported by any reliable sources. That's what Wikipedia calls original research. No one should be surprised that members of the Proud Boys were at some of the same far-right events. That doesn't mean that Cole has any influence over them or vice versa. Round and rounder (talk) 20:33, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am not drawing a connection and you should re-read WP:OR. The connection has been drawn in reliable sources, as they have consistently noted that she has spoken at rallies that had a large number of Proud Boys in attendance. To say "she spoke at this event" without any context of who else spoke, who attended, and how the public reacted, is whitewashing. Neither I nor the article have said Cole has any influence over them or vice-versa, just noted times they've appeared together as reported in RS. If no one should be surprised that members of the Proud Boys were at some of the same far-right events, why are you objecting to mentioning that they were? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:01, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@TheTranarchist Can we have a reasonable discussion about this? Not including that some Proud Boys were at a far-right event is not "whitewashing". It's just a unnecessary detail in an already overly detailed article. There doesn't seem to be any connection between Cole and the Proud Boys other than Cole sometimes speaks at events which some members of the Proud Boys sometimes attend. By including them, you are implying a connection. No reliable source says there is any connection. Round and rounder (talk) 21:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We are not implying a connection by including that they intended, apart from the obvious connection that they attended the same rally, which is indisputable. Reliable sources have repeatedly noted Proud Boys have appeared at the events she's speaking at. We follow RS. We don't exclude details because you think that by mentioning them people will make assumptions. Factually speaking, the PB's attend her events. The only connection one could pick up from her article is that some of her events have been attended by Proud Boys, which is true. How people interpret that is not up to us. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 21:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that despite PBs showing up at rallies that feature Daryle Lamont Jenkins speaking, we don't mention them in attendance at his events, interestingly enough, there is no controversy or mention on his page either with regard to the impacts of his doxxing activities. WP:BALANCE WP:IMPARTIAL. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:22, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I fail to see how that's in any way relevant here. Is there any evidence they've shown up to his events, and if there is, are they there to oppose him or cheer him on? Two very different things and I hardly think there's any evidence of the latter... His article does need work, and frankly I've got no problem mentioning that proud boys showed up to protest him if we have the sources, but that's for discussion there, not here. Also, his article's lead literally states he has been credited with pioneering the practice of doxing and the article itself mentions his work in that regard so it's certainly mentioned. If you can find reliable sources saying there is a "controversy" about the ethics of him doxxing Nazis, mention them. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 15:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:TheTranarchist, I'm about to look into this, but I'm wondering if this isn't another case of you attempted to blow up this article out of all proportion. We're talking about a bit player in a fringe field who gets some coverage for some crazy shit but in many ways isn't important, if it weren't for the manufacture of outrage that lives on social media more than anywhere else. Not even a blip on the radar screen of the 2020s. Drmies (talk) 22:00, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree with this edit by Slywriter. I see now that there's conversation at BLPN and I'm going to take a look. Tranarchist, I've dropped some warnings on talk pages of obvious COI/non-neutral editors, and I saw some unproductive IP edits; if needs be we can semi-protect this to keep at least some of the riff-raff out. Drmies (talk) 22:10, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • We posted at the same time lol. Semi-protection would be much appreciated and I'd been thinking of asking for that but the vandalism seemed to abate recently. It would be nice to discuss the page productively rather than expending so much effort on vandals. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Let's see how it goes. If it pops back up I'll happily semi-protect it, and please do let me know if there's sus accounts, like the two that I welcomed/warned. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 23:22, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• @Drmies She has traveled across the country to support attacks on transgender rights and healthcare. She has frequently spoken at far-right events in support of that. She has received extensive coverage in RS for those things alone, so naturally the article reflects that. I have no clue where you're getting the manufacture of outrage that lives on social media from. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • And you do not need to retell every detail of each one of those events. Drmies (talk) 22:12, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not every detail for sure, but proud boys attending, especially when noted in RS that they composed a large chunk of her audience, seems due. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • You know that the issue is not whether the Proud Boys were there or whether it's noted in reliable sources--the question really is whether it is her audience. Drmies (talk) 23:22, 16 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The lead and the infobox currently says that Cole is known for "anti-transgender activism" but is that accurate? My understanding is that she is against gender affirming medical care for children, not against transitioning in general. Is the label "anti-transgender activist" supported by any reliable sources? If not, doesn't this violate Wikipedia policy in some way? Round and rounder (talk) 19:54, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Round and rounder, is there better wording you would suggest. Only one source says it outright, so think more explanation would serve the reader. Slywriter (talk) 21:20, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a suggestion, but I think that calling her an "anti-transgender activist" is misleading and probably a violation of the rules for living people so it should be removed until a better description is agreed upon. I would have just changed it to "detransitioner" but this topic area is so politically charged that even straightforward changes seem to be met with hostility. Round and rounder (talk) 22:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Striking comment from LTA sock. Nil Einne (talk) 11:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Quick note, trans kids are not magically not trans people. Campaigning to forcibly detransition people and deny them access to transgender healthcare is indeed anti-trans activism, regardless of their age.

Speaking to sources:

• anti-trans activist[1]
• anti-trans activist[2]
• In addition to Walsh, speakers at the rally included GOP state politicians from Tennessee, who earlier this year passed multiple anti-trans bills (helping to perpetuate mental health crisis among trans youth in the state), and Blackburn, who used the confirmation hearing for Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson to push anti-trans talking points. Other speakers included Tulsi Gabbard, Dr. Colin Wright, and Chloe Cole.[3] Note, Cole has pushed for the same legislation as those politicians.
• Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old who detransitioned and whom the anti-trans movement has turned into a celebrity for their movement[4]
• He referenced Chloe Cole, a woman who got a mastectomy as a teenager when she believed herself to be a trans man. She has since become an anti-transgender advocate [5]
• We are having this rally out of compassion today, because we have seen what these surgeries and hormones are doing to individuals,” said Rutherford County Turning Point chapter president Hannah Faulkner. “We love you LGBTQ,” claimed Faulkner, who also said, “This is not an anti-trans rally because transgender does not exist.”[6] If you're speaking at a rally and the only defense to being called anti-trans is to say "transgender doesn't exist", that's not exactly a stunning defense...
• After nearly five hours of contentious presentations by six experts and dozens of testimonials, members of the boards cut the public comment period short after letting several anti-trans advocates speak out. ... Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old from California, was among the detransitioners who told of worsening mental health problems, complications after surgery and lax medical care during or following treatment.[7]

That's just a quick search. It expands once you factor in all the bills multiple reliable sources have said were anti-trans and noted that Cole supported. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good example of what I was talking about at ANI. You have cherry picked sources with a particular slant. In other cases, you have asociated statements said about others with Cole.

I knew nothing about this person until a few days ago. If she is on record as saying that no one should be allowed to transition, I haven't seen it. If she is suggesting that kids should be forcibly detransitioned, I haven't seen it.

If someone said gay children should not be allowed to marry, but gay adults can, is that homophobic? Round and rounder (talk) 23:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Round and rounder, you seem to be applying a personal standard for what should count as "anti-trans activism". I think we should follow the sources. And so far the reliably sourced "celebrity of the anti-trans movement" sounds like the most precisely accurate description thus far. Newimpartial (talk) 23:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The actual quote from Xtra is "Chloe Cole, an 18-year-old who detransitioned and whom the anti-trans movement has turned into a celebrity for their movement..." if that's the source you mean. In any case, I think I'd best bow out of this discussion. If others don't have a problem with it, I'll go along with the consensus. Round and rounder (talk) 23:24, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Striking comment from LTA sock. Nil Einne (talk) 11:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first one doesn't support the claim even if we assume they are reliable for such a contentious claim. The second one does but we have to ask how much weight we would give such a clearly biased source. The quote provided in #3 doesn't call Cole anti-trans. The same is true of #4. #5 does but again, weight. #6 doesn't say Cole is an anti-trans activist. Transach synthesized the claim. #7 also doesn't support the claim. Springee (talk) 23:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"The second one does but we have to ask how much weight we would give such a clearly biased source."

Wait, wait, wait, you're calling an LGBT news source a "clearly biased source" on the topic of whether someone is anti-trans or not? Is that seriously the position you want to be taking? Silverseren^C 00:34, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spring, I didn't synthesize anything, just pointed out that if you're speaking at a rally where the organizer's best defense to being called "anti-trans" is flat out saying "transgender doesn't exist", that's patently absurd. It's like saying, "we're not homophobes, homosexual doesn't exist" - they're not explicitly saying they're homophobes, but their defense is so ridiculous it takes olympian-level mental gymnastics to conclude anything else. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:14, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding and listing some more reliable sources mentioning her in the context of anti-trans legislation.

• Kansas, Missouri consider banning gender-affirming care amid wave of anti-trans bills ... [Cole has] have traveled nationally advocating for bans on gender affirming care. Cole is from California.[8]
• Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene (R-GA) held an anti-trans rally at the Capitol this week. A whopping 12 or so people attended and no major media outlets covered it. ... The rally was a veritable who’s who of contemporary transphobic trolls, including members of the book-banning “parents’ rights” group Moms for Liberty; members of the anti-LGBTQ conservative think tank Heritage Foundation; de-transitioned young adult right-wing media darling Chloe Cole;[9]
• Anti-trans bigots celebrate proposed Florida rule to bar gender-affirming care under Medicaid ... Under the proposed rule, the Medicaid program would not cover puberty-blocking medication, hormones and hormone “antagonists,” sex-reassignment surgeries and any “other procedures that alter primary or secondary sexual characteristics.” ... Friday’s hearing opened with testimony from Chloe Cole, who said she is a 17-year-old “de-transitioner” from California who underwent treatments, including surgery to remove her breasts, between the ages of 13 and 16. Cole said she supports the proposed rule.[10] Side note, saying poor trans adults, not just kids shouldn't get medical care, is blatantly anti-trans.
• Sens. Mike Thompson, R-Shawnee, and Mark Steffen, R-Hutchinson, are trying to criminalize hormone replacement therapy and gender reassignment surgery for transgender youth. Their bill, SB12, known as the Kansas child mutilation prevention act, would make it illegal for physicians to prescribe hormone replacement therapy or perform gender-reassignment surgeries for anyone under 21 ... He referenced Chloe Cole, a woman who got a mastectomy as a teenager when she believed herself to be a trans man. She has since become an anti-transgender advocate. [11]

Additionally, from this article's body (sources there): Greene did so in support of her attempt to pass the "Protect Children's Innocence Act", which would federally make it a felony to provide any gender-affirming care to a minor, give minors an avenue to sue such providers, prohibit the use of federal funds for such care in health insurance, deport undocumented immigrants who provide such care, and prohibit colleges and universities from offering instruction in gender-affirming care. Cole said that while she doesn't agree with everything any politician says or does, she finds the bill is a cause she can get behind. Cole spoke in support at a press conference Greene hosted for the bill.

So in short, not only has she protested against gender-affirming care for trans minors (which would still be anti-trans regardless), she's protested against it for adults and supported making it a felony to allow trans youth to transition. This whole discussion is silly, as saying trans kids shouldn't be allowed to transition is a WP:FRINGE position that is consistently and rightfully described in reliable sources as "anti-trans". That's not even mentioning how the whole "it's not anti-trans - think of the children!" shtick falls apart when you consider she has supported bills that would make it illegal to provide HRT to even adults (for the record, making it illegal to give a trans person HRT when they're already on it indeed "forced detransition"), make it harder for poor trans adults of any age to access such care, and prevent universities from even discussing such care. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 01:10, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

None of your new sources call her an anti-trans activist. You jump to conclusions then expect others to accept them. Sorry no. This is a BLP violation. Springee (talk) 12:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've been unable to find supporting reliability evidence for the inclusion of several of the sources cited here, at least on any Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard or otherwise. One of them is considered a tabloid, and the quality of journalism should be considered a political hit job. At this point, I'm incredibly jaded and have become so demoralized that I don't even want to take the time to aggregate or search deeper because I feel it's a lost cause. The entirety of Wikipedia has become a place for activism and outright slander, especially BLPs. I'm of the opinion that we should just let this happen, as it stands Wiki has become less and less reliable over time and finally people are starting to pay attention. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say they did, they mentioned her support for anti-trans legislation. You know what the neutral term for someone who campaigns for anti-trans legislation is? "anti-trans activist/campaigner"...

But for some more sources on why these bills she supports are unequivocally anti-trans, see the:

• ACLU
• various medical organizations such as the AAP, AMA, and many others, describing the bills as unequivocally harmful to trans people

@Springee, are you really going to suggest that fighting to stop even adults transitioning is not "anti-trans activism"? TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 17:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop construction straw arguments. That is tendentious talk page behavior. If you are going to apply a contentious label you need to show it is widely used. Showing that occasional or sources with a strong POV use it isn't sufficient. Synthesizing it's use as you are arguing above is also not OK. Springee (talk) 18:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To which sources are you attributing a strong POV? I am seeing an attempt to characterize sources through oblique insinuation, based on nothing but an editor's personal opinion. Newimpartial (talk) 18:07, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The first two at the top of the section are clearly sources with a strong POV. You can argue they are still reliable but that doesn't negate the POV. Incidentally, when looking at sources that are generally neutral or engaged in simple reporting we don't see her called an anti-trans activist. Going beyond that, a number of Christian related news sites clearly don't call her that. If we are willing to accept the POV of one side I see no reason not to accept the POV of another side. Springee (talk) 21:36, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

With one side being actual LGBT news sources, which would be close to an authority on what would be considered anti-transgender actions and activities. And the other side you're referring to being religious news sites that have an anti-LGBT bias and no real authority on whether an action is anti-trans? Silverseren^C 21:45, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If we are talking about automotive impact on the environment would you consider Car and Driver or Road and Track unbiased? They may be good sources but they are also close to the subject. The problem with their position of authority is they may decide someone who doesn't agree with their POV is anti-transgender while neutral third parties wouldn't agree. And if we are going to say how should a person be publically labeled then yes, I do think we should consider how multiple POVs describe her before we apply a contentious label. Springee (talk) 21:48, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Springee, how would you summarize the ways the subject is labelled by sources that are generally neutral or engaged in simple reporting, and which sources would you use to back that up? Newimpartial (talk) 21:46, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you make a suggestion first. What sources would you consider to be natural to the topic? That is they don't have a bias for or against and are trying to just report the facts. Springee (talk) 21:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really have an answer to that; I was basically calling your bluff. And while I'm not the biggest fan of Fox News, I do think the label they apply, "Conservative activist and detransitioner", is one worth considering, though it isn't mutually exclusive with other terms. Newimpartial (talk) 22:05, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, so you are saying you don't know what a neutral source would be. What about these two? [12], [13]? Are they neutral? One is a public broadcasting station. Springee (talk) 22:06, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Springee, please WP:DROPTHESTICK. Numerous sources describe her as an anti-trans activist. Numerous sources note her campaigning for anti-trans bills as being what she is most notable for. The idea that fully criminalizing transgender healthcare, not even just with a bullshit "save the kids" argument but even for adults, is not anti-trans activism is a fully WP:FRINGE position. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:15, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually not that many sources describe her at anti-trans activist and if you are going to put that contentious LABEL in wiki-voice you need better sourcing. Remember BLP applies here. Springee (talk) 22:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'm saying I don't know how you would summarize the characterizations in what you see as neutral sources. The ksl source simply says an 18-year-old activist which, while accurate, isn't especially helpful. The spdb source doesn't give any characterization beyond "former trans kid" and observes that Cole has also spoken in support of similar bills in other states, i.e., laws to prevent transgender kids from getting gender-affirming treatment. So how would you summarize those? Newimpartial (talk) 22:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure she is a conservative activist so much as the conservatives seem willing to listen to her. Call that a pairing of common interest. She certainly is a detransitioner. It's probably best to say she speaks about against transitioning for minors and then list her stated concerns. They may or may not be valid but if she is worth writing a page about perhaps her concerns are also worth covering. Springee (talk) 22:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CIR, multiple sources have noted her campaigning against trans healthcare for adults as well as minors, stop trying to shift the frame of what she campaigns against. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please FOC, if you want to talk about CIR do it at ANI. Springee (talk) 22:19, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That is as may be, TheTranarchist, but I think her activism against gender-affirming treatment for minors is what has made the subject notable. That can't reasonably be taken to imply that she supports gender-affirming treatment for adults, btw, it simply emphasizes what she is actually known for.

Newimpartial (talk) 22:23, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be inclined to include a top-level statement about her being an activist against gender-affirming treatment for minors, which seems accurate, uncontroversial and neutral. Newimpartial (talk) 22:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would fully support that. Thank you for pulling us back and suggesting a compromise. Springee (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd support Chloe Cole is an American anti-transgender activist and detransitioner. She is known for appearing on right-wing media and with conservative politicians in favor of legislation that would ban gender-affirming care for those under 21, criminalize those who provide it, prohibit federal funding or Medicaid for such care at any age, and ban lessons on it in universities.

My worry is that lead will be immediately contradicted by the body, which notes her campaigning against care for those under 21. For example, while it's technically true "minors can't drink in the US", the more encyclopedic summary is "those under 21 can't drink in the U.S", as the precise age limit matters. I find it better we summarize rather than take the average of her actions. TheTranarchist ⚧ Ⓐ (talk) 22:35, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are exaggerating the relevance of the under 21 aspect. As far as I can tell, most of these proposals cover people under the age of 18, and I can't find any instances where Cole has objected to a bill for not going far enough by allowing treatment for those 18-20. I'm not suggesting that she supports gender-affirming treatment for adults, but it isn't obvious that she opposes it, whereas all sources agree that she opposes gender-affirming treatment for minors. Newimpartial (talk) 22:49, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Newimpartial here (sorry, that probably made you feel uncomfortable /hummor) Springee (talk) 22:51, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't support that as it has the same issues we have been arguing over. Also, the "known for appearing on" is not a good way to phrase things. It loads the language as if she is there because she's a conservative and it implies she is known for being a guest vs known for being an activist against gender affirming care for minors. It ideally would be good to say what her positions are assume she has some. Something like "Chloe Cole is an American teen detransitioner. She is known her activism against gender affirming care for minors." From there we can discuss her background and some of the bills she has been involved with. We should not take any specific bill she has supported as a whitnes and imply she supports all aspects of that bill. That would be OR. If we are going to say/imply what she supports we need to use her direct statements. The problem with bills is sometimes people accept what they can get rather than what they might ideally want. It's quite possible she is totally OK with various types of care for adults but her concern about harm to minors, presumably fearing others would end up in her position) drives her to accept the full bill. Put another way, if she supported a bill that narrowly covered only minors it would be incorrect to imply she insists on limiting care for adults. Springee (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, it is equally plausible that, as a born-again Christian and a conservative, she privately opposes all gender-affirming care but her speechwriters confine her comments to minors because that's what the communications consultants recommend. We presently just have no way to know. Newimpartial (talk) 22:54, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note that the OP is a LTA sock. I've struck two terminal comments of theirs that didn't receive direct replies but left them in case editors had referred to them in later replies and I missed this. I left earlier comments that had been replied to intact although anyone else is free to strike them if they feel this would be better and they can be safely ignored in any case. Nil Einne (talk) 11:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]