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Template:Notice-nc-geo

Chinese government allows to use both the Russian ruble and the yuan, in Suifenhe, China as a legal tender. It is the first time in the history of PRC when the usage of a foreign currency as a payment for goods and services is allowed on its territory. I suggest to add the Russian ruble to the list of currencies along with the yuan in the same fashion as it's done for Panama and US dollar, but with a footnote that its usage is only allowed in a certain region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.141.26 (talk • contribs) 11:24, November 26, 2014

China is number one by both nominal total GDP and purchasing power parity not number two. Please edit ????. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Swax2 (talk • contribs) 16:44, December 19, 2014

I think this should be mentioned in article, and Ethan Gutmanns estimate of 65,000 being killed, because it is objective information about numbers killed. For other types of persecution in China (for FG anyway) its unclear how many have been killed. The number killed shows how big the problem is. (talk) 01:39, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aaabbb11 - thank you for trying to discuss. I'm open to a possible compromise, but I'm not sure you'll be entirely satisfied with my proposal. I suggest adding, at the end of the sentence on Falun Gong, another short line to the effect of "In addition, some researchers estimate that tens of thousands of Falun Gong adherents, Uyghurs, and prisoners may have been killed to supply a trade in human organs." That's pretty close to my maximum position, personally. In a more focused article Ethan Gutmann's findings could be included, but I'm not comfortable singling out a single researcher here. I'm also wary of the false precision involved in citing that number, as Gutmann himself supplies a pretty large estimate range, with 65,000 being the median.Keihatsu ^talk 02:42, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of the three key organ harvesting investigators David Matas, David Kilgour) and Gutmann, Gutmann is the only one to estimate the numbers killed. Gutmann doesn't have to be mentioned, but his estimate was published by Prometheus Books. Two independent reviews of his 2014 book published 65,000 from 2000 to 2008. While in an interview with the Toronto Star he stated, "The number of casualties is close to 100,000."Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade. Gutmanns's guesstimate of Tibetans, Uyghurs and House Christians killed was 2,000 to 4,000.

But I think its important to mention that 5 leaders were indicted for genocide because that is objective information, which makes the situation quite clear. I'm OK with tens of thousands killed if 5 leaders being indicted for genocide is mentioned. Sure things have be kept very brief in an article like this but I can see less important info that could easily be deleted.Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I just don't agree with you on the genocide issue. It can be mentioned on those respective officials' pages and pages about Falun Gong where appropriate, but it's undue weight here. If there were actual findings of guilt, I might reconsider, but with indictments alone I don't see a compelling case. And it does not seem that you've convinced other editors either.Keihatsu ^talk 04:55, 2 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The campaign against FG began in 1996 with banning FG books. So no need to mention, "large-scale demonstration in Beijing", which was probably a peaceful gathering see Falun Gong. When you gather in large numbers no need to demonstrate. Numbers is all that's needed.

Kilgour and Matas stated, "we believe that there has been and continues today to be large scale organ seizures from unwilling Falun Gong practitioners". And there's no "may" or Uighurs in their conclusions and only have Falun Gong prisoners of conscience [1] No need to mention "trade in human organs". 70 million practitioners should also be mentioned, because it shows how popular Falun Gong had become. I think it should be worded like this

Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the Communist Party launched a campaign to eliminate Falun Gong, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]

and remove the Communist Party to shorten it further...

Falun Gong was first taught publicly in 1992. In 1999, when there were 70 million practitioners, the persecution of Falun Gong began, resulting in mass arrests, extralegal detention, and reports of torture and deaths in custody.[212][213] Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[214][215]

This reference can be used for 70 million^[1]

These references should be used ^{[2] [3]} so the reader can read more if they are interested. This ref^[4] from The Toronto Star should be used as it doesn't limit the time frame to 2000 to 2008. Gutmann states, "the number of casualties is close to 100,000." This ref^[5] should be included because it quotes from Ethan Gutmanns 2014 book and provides estimates of Falun Gong in the Laogai system. Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In order to include Guttman's views, we need to show (1) the degree of acceptance of his views among experts and (2) that have prominence in books about China. Neither of that has been done yet. His claims are so shocking that one would expect mainstream sources would comment on them if they had any merit. TFD (talk) 01:43, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Larry Getlen, "China’s long history of harvesting organs from living political foes", New York Post, 9 August 2014

Barbara Turnbull (21 October 2014) "Q&A: Author and analyst Ethan Gutmann discusses China’s illegal organ trade", The Toronto Star

Mainstream newspapers seem to shy away from this issue. I'm not aware of a truly independent source in English for 5 leaders being indicted for genocide in Spain. In Spanish there is one. Aaabbb11 (talk) 02:49, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If Gutmann's views are widely ignored in the mainstream, then weight requires us to ignore them too. The Star btw is widely respected, but it only mentions the book in the book section. What we would want to see is academic papers discussing the issue. China has political prisoners and has sold organs from executed criminals. There are unconfirmed reports they take organs from living prisoners. But Gutmann's claims go beyond that. TFD (talk) 03:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jay Nordlinger (25 August 2014) "Face The Slaughter: The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem, by Ethan Gutmann", National Review

Viv Young (11 August 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvesting, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem", New York Journal of Books

Gutmann's estimates aren't shocking. Kilgour and Matas published estimates in 2006. Their work is referenced and accepted. Gutmann's estimates have been on the internet for years. Aaabbb11 (talk) 04:00, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But their conclusions are not accepted either. It's a "walled garden", a small number of writers whose studies receive attention almost exclusively in opinion pieces in mostly right-wing media and Falun Gong's own publications. For example in The International Trafficking of Human Organs, Falun Gong is mentioned only in passing and it says they have "allegedly been targeted." TFD (talk) 14:51, 3 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Trafficking isn't necessarily the same as harvesting. Its common for transplant professionals and others to refer to the Kilgour–Matas report. On the US National Library of Medicine site there are 4 articles that reference or mention it.

On annual Congressional-Executive Commission on China reports, its mentioned or referenced - 2006 report 3 times, 2007 report twice, 2009 report twice, and 2012 report once.

The Government of China attempted to rebut both versions of the report at organharvestinvestigation.net Aaabbb11 (talk) 09:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that what you find so essential to this article receives almost no coverage anywhere else. Per Balancing aspects, the article should include what sources consider important, not what you do. TFD (talk) 15:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Murtagh, "China ‘murdering Falun Gong members for organ harvesting’", Irish Times, 11 July 2013

Thomas Nelson (Fall 2014) "The Slaughter: Mass Killings, Organ Harvestings, and China’s Secret Solution to Its Dissident Problem by Ethan Gutmann A Review", International Affairs Review

Gutmann's articles are published in the World Affairs Journal, The Weekly Standard and elsewhere. His estimate of 65,000 was published in the book State Organs. Google 65,000 Falun Gong and its says "about 104,000 results".

Many medical professionals believe that organ harvesting of Falun Gong is happening. Dr. Gabriel Danovitch, Professor of Medicine, Arthur Caplan, Professor of Bioethics, Dr. Jacob Lavee, cardiothoracic surgeon, Dr. Ghazali Ahmad, Professor Maria Fiatarone Singh and Dr. Torsten Trey, wrote essays for State Organs.

Transplant doctor Henkie P. Tan stated, "Everybody, any transplant position, any transplant personnel is against this. This should never have happen. We're surprised this is happening. There's no doubt about it. It should just never happen. It should be stopped." Aaabbb11 (talk) 22:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There are two negative reports of the NZ government and the US department of State for Falun Gong supporters and Kilgour-Matas report: [2] [3] Wikipedia is NOT a propaganda tool of anybody, including Falun Gong.小梨花 (talk) 03:08, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@小梨花: The new article Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China is now being reviewed for DYK (see nomination page), and editors have raised neutrality and other issues with it. I don't know much about FLG and its controversies, but if you're familiar with it, you may wish to comment at the nomination page. -Zanhe (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@小梨花:

I think you should be aware of this.

In March 2006, The Epoch Times published the allegations of three Chinese individuals who said that thousands of Falun Gong practitioners had been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry,^[6][7][8] including a doctor, said who said there were 36 concentration camps all over China.^[8]

The information provided by the 3rd allegation http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-3-31/39910.html is interesting. It states "It takes no more than a day to transfer 5,000 people in a closed freight train on a special route. I have witnessed a specially dispatched freight train transferring over 7,000 people in one trip from Tianjin to the Jilin area."

So US representatives visiting one site and finding no evidence of organ harvesting as shown in this 16 April 2006 article http://iipdigital.ait.org.tw/st/english/texttrans/2006/04/20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231.html#axzz3kfKr3ebz does not prove that organ harvesting is not happening in China.

The Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee of the New Zealand government in November 2013 claimed "Neither committee members nor the Government are aware of any independent evidence verifying the Falun Gong claims on organ harvesting." as you can see on the last page of this report http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/50DBSCH_SCR6012_1/8254a6b4c6aaae0d848a465615b7b3bf71752f9a

But the only piece of evidence they list is the "significant US State Department investigation", presumably from 16 April 2006 (no references provided) which is not significant because it predates the first Kilgour–Matas report which was released in July 2006. There have been 3 books about organ harvesting in China published in 2009, 2012 and 2014 that you will not be able to buy in China.

You should also be aware of the New Zealand China Free Trade Agreement which is the first free trade agreement that China has signed with any developed country, and New Zealand's largest trade deal since 1983. The New Zealand government is not known for its moral values and is pro business as evidenced voting to keep the legal drinking age at 18 despite drinking related problems in NZ. Because the relatively small NZ economy (population of NZ 4.6 million) is heavily dependent on exports it is not surprising that the NZ government would not want to upset the Communist Party of China by finding evidence of organ harvesting in China.

So the organ harvesting information should be reinstated. Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You saying that the Kilgour–Matas report is naturally neutral without support from an official third party because NZ government would not want to upset the Communist Party of China? So what evidence indicate that the these governments made this deal and Kilgour & Matas have no any backstage supporter? This is just a conspiracy theory and the word "killed for their organs" is still a controversial legend.小梨花 (talk) 23:10, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@小梨花:

The Kilgour–Matas report at organharvesting.net is a reliable source.

On annual Congressional-Executive Commission on China reports, its mentioned or referenced - 2006 report 3 times, 2007 report twice, 2009 report twice, and 2012 report once.

You claim this there is a negative report from the NZ Government http://www.parliament.nz/resource/en-nz/50DBSCH_SCR6012_1/8254a6b4c6aaae0d848a465615b7b3bf71752f9a when its a Falun Gong petition that wasn't supported by the NZ government that has no references at all. So no credibility either in my opinion.

The 16 April 2006 US report isn't mentioned on Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or Persecution of Falun Gong#Organ harvesting because wikipedia is Wikipedia:Summary Style and the US report is an early report that's not important as officials on only visited one site.

I suggest you read Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or Persecution of Falun Gong#Organ harvesting or the 3 books published about organ harvesting in China.

The New Zealand–China Free Trade Agreement is on wikipedia and has 15 references. I can assure you that it is real. Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:04, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I mean that you said that the New Zealand–China Free Trade Agreement is an evidence that NZ government made false for the CPC, however that is your conspiracy theory, a tendentious speculation.小梨花 (talk) 17:32, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of persecution of Falun Gong is internationally recognized as mentioned in the current article, but in my personal opinion the Kilgour–Matas report is not suitable for this article for the above reason, and there are other important issues of the PRC could be added, such as Islamic extremism in Xinjiang, excessively long paragraph should also be avoided. BTW the FLG itself is a controversial organization.小梨花 (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I might add, you said “Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe what what” in the article. If we have to talk about "somebodies BELIEVE something", “somebodies don't believe it" should also be mentioned for neutrality, especially when disbeliefs are besed on investigations, furthermore “believe sth. or no” is not accord with the standard of this encyclopedia. While an appropriate length is also important as this article is a geography and places good article. In addition, The Epoch Times belongs to the FLG itself, when one testify for oneself, the probative force is really weak, that's also why I don't even mention Chinese official position.小梨花 (talk) 13:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@小梨花:

On 28 August you deleted important human rights information about organ harvesting in China that was added to this article on 27 April after a discussion involving 3 editors that ended on 7 April.

There is now even an article titled Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China with 111 references that is likely to be expanded. On 30 August 2015 you made a comment on Template:Did you know nominations/Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China using the same "reports" which are not significant. You stated,

"I don’t really care about this, but I have noticed that the neutrality of Kilgour-Matas report is suspicious for it has been denyed by the reports of the NZ government and the US department of State. [1] [2] but these reports have been ignored."

The TheBlueCanoe responded to you the same day, but you have yet to respond. If you do care about organ harvesting I suggest you make comments on that page, which seems to be the appropriate place for an in depth discussion about organ harvesting in China. What you have done to the China article amounts to disruptive editing and the organ harvesting information that you deleted based on your opinion should be reinstated.

David Matas, David Kilgour and Ethan Gutmann are the three key investigators and authors of organ harvesting in China. Gutmann is a China watcher who spent about 7 years compiling the information for his 2014 book. He has testified before the U.S. Congress, the U.S. House Committee on Foreign Affairs, the European Parliament and the United Nations. Kilgour and Matas have visited many countries raising awareness of organ harvesting in China and gained more information while doing so. So its more than just a case of believing.

The 27 April 2015 version of China does not mention or use Epoch Times as a reference. ‎Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:43, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In order to add it you need not merely show that it has been reported in reliable sources but that it is considered to be significant in reliable sources about China. China is in the news every day, yet there is little if any mention of organ harvesting. TFD (talk) 18:41, 6 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Neither committee members nor the Government are aware of any independent evidence verifying the Falun Gong claims on organ harvesting. This conclusion is based on both New Zealand and foreign inquiries. New Zealand officials discussed the allegations with Kilgour and Matas; the office of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture; human rights non-governmental organisations; and other countries interested in the human rights situation in China. Other international organisations also attempted to verify whether the claims on organ harvesting made in the Kilgour/Matas report had substance. This included a significant US State Department investigation that concluded that there was no evidence of the practice. Officials are not aware of any independent assessment that supports the Falun Gong’s claims of forced organ harvesting.

This paragraph is excerpted from the report Petition 2011/84 of Sam Fang on behalf of the Falun Gong Association Incorporated (21 November 2013)(as reported by the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Committee) as one of the strong enough opposition views of NHK, Rambodoc, the article Inside China's 'crematorium' of The Ottawa Citizen and many others, the Kilgour-Matas report has not been considered as an independent assessment. The neutrality is a pillar of wikipedia, presumption of innocence is an important principle to keep it. It is not proper to propagate an unilateral view in a good article.

I mentioned the Epoch Times because you tried to use it to prove your point on this page.小梨花 (talk) 05:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So far 3 books on Organ Harvesting in China have been published. Publishers aren't keen to wreck their reputations or lose money by publishing misleading information. You can google "live organ harvesting" and see articles like China’s long history of harvesting organs from living political foes from http://nypost.com

But on the Communist Party's US Embassy topic page http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ the topics of Falun Gong and organ harvesting are absent. Aaabbb11 (talk) 13:42, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted your addition of the info. As per The Four Deuces and other users above, adding a controversial report that's received little coverage from mainstream media to this article is WP:UNDUE. -Zanhe (talk) 19:24, 17 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zanhe

1. Since 23 September 2014 User:小梨花|小梨花 has only made about 14 edits to other articles or talk pages other than China. So getting close to a single article editor.

2. You and 小梨花|小梨花 have deleted organ harvesting information not a report. To claim it is a report is disruptive editing.

3. Human rights in China#Organ harvesting has more detailed information. One solution is to copy the most important information from that section. There is no need for a completely fresh debate on this page. Aaabbb11 (talk) 23:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Zanhe

You seem to being doing a very large number of edits to China related articles. So you may be a single purpose account. I note that on 21 September in 10 minutes you deleted more than 50,000 bytes of the Terrorism in China article and the number of references dropped from 220 to 122.

I see no reason not to put the sentence about organ harvesting information back in as your editing seems highly suspect. Maybe your editing should be investigated.

The sentence was "Kilgour, Matas and Gutmann believe that tens of thousands of practitioners, were killed for their organs.[226][227][228]" Aaabbb11 (talk) 14:08, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Aaabbb11: Be careful of casting aspersions about other editors. Wikipedia has a policy of no personal attacks. You need to focus on following Wikipedia policies and guidelines, not the actions of others when they are playing by the rules.  Philg88 ^♦talk 15:40, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Philg88: Have you had a look at the edits done by those editors? There is a genocide happening in china as per Talk:Persecution of Falun Gong#Genocide. Deleting information about a current genocide is very serious because it helps prolong it as there is no information about it on wiki. People who are unaware of the current genocide in China will remain uninformed if they read the China article. Aaabbb11 (talk) 17:18, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Aaabbb11: Wikipedia is not a soap box and any information you wish to add must abide by our guidelines on undue weight and reliable sourcing in independent sources. I have no desire to get into a long discussion on policy here, just edit according to the rules, OK?  Philg88 ^♦talk 17:46, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Philg88: Did you read all of this topic? Organ harvesting information was added after a significant discussion. It has been deleted by what may be single purpose accounts, without adequate reasons in my opinion. If I have to report editors for deleting important information without consensus I am prepared to do that.

I do not think that undue weight and reliable sourcing in independent sources are an issue in this case. Aaabbb11 (talk) 18:05, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Aaabbb11: Please read what it says above: No long discussion. If you wish to report anyone then I suggest you do so on the relevant board rather than continue to make accusations here.  Philg88 ^♦talk 19:59, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Philg88: Stating that someone maybe a single purpose account is not listed under Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F. So i do not think I made a personal attack. Aaabbb11 (talk) 22:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence" is listed under WP:No personal attacks. Your accusation of an editor with 50,000+ edits and 200+ DYK credits (me) of being an SPA fits that description. The accusation is especially ridiculous when it comes from an editor (you) with less than 700 article edits, mostly Falun Gong related. By the way, the info I deleted from Terrorism in China was mainly undue info about Uyghur fighters in Syria added by a single user, which is irrelevant to the topic. -Zanhe (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the DYK nomination for Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China was rejected by administrator Gatoclass for neutrality, synthesis, and other issues. This stuff clearly does not belong in a high-profile Good Article like China. Besides, the United States article does not mention police abuse of the blacks, even though such incidents (unlike the organ harvesting claims) are widely reported and indisputably confirmed, because it would be undue to focus on an issue, however grave, that is minor in the big picture. -Zanhe (talk) 23:45, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I've written plenty of articles about dissidents and scandals in China, see Tie Liu, Wang Shouye, Ma Faxiang, Jiang Zhonghua, etc. But I only use respectable mainstream media or academic publications, not politically motivated advocacy sources. -Zanhe (talk) 00:26, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just chiming in here, the claim against Zanhe which accuses him/her of being a SPA is clearly pot calling the kettle black, given that Zanhe is a well-established editor who's been here since 2009 and is involved with a wide variety of different topics. If the accuser wants to discuss a content dispute in relation to Wikipedia policy, then they are free to do so; turning this into a personal dispute directed at a specific user is not acceptable for this talk page. --benlisquare_T•C•E 08:30, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recently quote marks were added around "Republic of China" in the hatnote. I realize that quote marks have a legitimate use, but commonly it can also be used to indicate sarcastic or that something is illegitimate or a pretender. With that in mind, I think it's easier, simpler, and will ultimately be less controversial to simply leave it as-is, with no quote marks. hbdragon88 (talk) 10:26, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal is to keep the information about water supply and sanitation infrastructure with the existing heading on infrastructure (but someone deleted it, saying it's part of environmental issues). It is not an environmental issue, it is about providing people with infrastructure and services. Since this page already has a section in infrastructure, it fits very well. If needed, it could be shortened. See also related discussion the talk page of the WikiProject Countries template: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries/Templates#Suggestion:_Add_infrastructure_to_the_template and also here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Philg88#Your_edits_about_water_supply_and_sanitation_on_the_China_page EvMsmile (talk) 11:29, 6 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The section has been removed by three different editors, [4] by Moxy, [5] by 小梨花 and [6] by myself, so there is consensus that is is not needed, though for varying reasons. For myself it is primarily an environmental issue and one of many, and the section was both misplaced and gave undue weight to the topic in this summary article, so does not belong.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:37, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's three people who removed it versus 3 people who put it in (see here by User:Philg88 and before that by User:Mll mitch and myself), so I don't see how this is "consensus" already? I'd rather think we should have a proper discussion here before declaring this as closed. Access to water supply is NOT an environmental issue. What is your argument for saying it is an "environmental issue"? Access to sanitation in itself is also not an environmental issue. See here about Millennium Development Goals which explains why access is important for people. - In which sense is the section "misplaced"? Where should it be rather placed? And if it gives "undue weight" then how else should it be incluced? EvMsmile (talk) 02:27, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

On content, the overlap of that section and the original article was clear. No matter what issue it is, it has been adequately mentioned, including its background, its status and the infrastructural growth, It does not need another with a style like a government report or thesis of vague statements and sweeping generalizes (like "sth. pose great challenges" and "increased...increased...increased...and increased..."). Perhaps some substantive contents like South–North Water Transfer Project is more suitable for this article.小梨花 (talk) 04:57, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Where has it been adequately mentioned already? Like the JMP access figures, they have not been mentioned yet? And just to make sure everyone is on the same page, this is the part that I would like to see added (of course the wording can be improved, e.g. if the word "increased" is repeated too often!)

+++++++

Water supply and sanitation sector is undergoing a massive transition while facing numerous challenges such as rapid urbanization, a widening gap between rich and poor as well as urban and rural areas. Water scarcity, contamination, and pollution in China also pose great challenges.<ref name="Chinatocleanuppollutedlake">BBC News. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7065095.stm China to clean up polluted lake]. 27 October 2007.</ref><ref name="Water Scarcity in China">{{cite web |url = http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7d6f69ea-bc73-11e2-b344-00144feab7de.html#axzz2TMae0Kjs|title = China: High and dry: Water shortages put a brake on economic growth|publisher = Financial Times|date = May 14, 2013|accessdate = 2013-05-15|author = Hook, Leslie}}</ref>

Much has been achieved during the past decades in terms of increased access to services, increased municipal wastewater treatment, the creation of water and wastewater utilities that are legally and financially separated from local governments, and increasing cost recovery as part of the transformation of the Chinese economy to a more market-oriented system. The government quadrupled investments in the sector during the Eleventh Five-Year Plan (2006–10).

However, according to survey data analyzed by the Joint Monitoring Program for Water and Sanitation of WHO and UNICEF, about 100 million Chinese still did not have access to an improved water source in 2008, and about 460 million did not have access to improved sanitation. Progress in rural areas appears to lag behind what has been achieved in urban areas.<ref name="Water Scarcity in China" />

+++++++ EvMsmile (talk) 06:48, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think that anyone can argue that water supply and sanitation shouldn't be included in country articles, so the question is where. Our own article on infrastructure defines it as "the physical components of interrelated systems providing commodities and services essential to enable, sustain, or enhance societal living conditions". Water and sewage services fall within that gamut so that seems to be our answer.  Philg88 ^♦talk 06:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article has include this:

The country also has water problems. Roughly 298 million Chinese in rural areas do not have access to safe drinking water,[148] and 40% of China's rivers had been polluted by industrial and agricultural waste by late 2011. In 2011, the Chinese government announced plans to invest four trillion yuan (US$618.55 billion) in water infrastructure and desalination projects over a ten-year period, and to complete construction of a flood prevention and anti-drought system by 2020.[150][158]

Paragraphs should be short enough to be readable, but long enough to develop an idea. This is a consensus of Wikipedia, about this we could take a cue from some featured country articles such as Germany or India. So we could edit something different, concise and clear to the point with real data and references, such as wastewater treatment ratio, the number of wastewater treatment plants, the number of reservoirs, per capita possession of water resources, number of serious water shortage city and South–North Water Transfer Project.小梨花 (talk) 10:38, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with what User:Philg88 said. About this sentence that is currently in the article "Roughly 298 million Chinese in rural areas do not have access to safe drinking water,[148]" - it is actually in the wrong location, namely under environmental issues, but it is not an environmental issue whether someone has access to drinking water, it's an infrastructure and service issue. Also the reference given there is not great. I had added a much better one, data from UNICEF and WHO from 2015 - therefore it makes no sense to me why that old sentence and old reference is allowed to stay in but my new statement and better reference is not. I would propose to carefully weed through the section on "environmental issues" and take those things out of there that actually concern infrastructure and then put them where they belong, i.e. in the new section on water supply and sanitation infrastructure. As the article already has a section on infrastructure, I really don't see the reason for the great resistance to say something about water and sanitation infrastructure there, too. And yes, it could be built up with new information about sewage treatment plants, which is probably already included here: water supply and sanitation in China, so it would not need to be repeated, but mentioned briefly and otherwise the reader should be referred across to the other article (which of course should also then be updated if needed). And yes, the same logic does apply to other country articles, too.EvMsmile (talk) 11:28, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think (hope) that I've come up with a good compromise now: I have added a section called "other infrastructure" and put very basic information about water supply access and sanitation there, together with Wikilinks. I think this is now good to remind people that there is more infrastructure than IT and tranport but without giving undue weight to water supply and sanitation. I hope this can serve as a starting point for other editors to contribute more. EvMsmile (talk) 04:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do not change to "football is currently the most popular spectator sport in China" with a reference about the number of audiences of a certain football match. There is already a Chinese reference of a 2014 survey result of General Administration of Sport showing which is the most popular spectator sport, basketball is 34.9%, while football is 10.4%.[7]

小梨花 (talk) 11:12, 23 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gini_year = 2014

| Gini_change = | Gini = 46.9 | Gini_ref = <ref name=PNAS>{{cite web |url=http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/hdr_2015_statistical_annex.pdf |format=PDF |title=2015 Human Development Report Summary |date=2015 |accessdate=14 December 2015 |publisher=United Nations Development Programme | pages=17}}</ref> | Gini_rank = Noahlee (talk) 04:51, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --FutureTrillionaire (talk) 03:06, 21 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Antonioga (talk) 09:23, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

In section 9.3 Urbanization I'd change the second sentence data:

"The percent of the country's population living in urban areas increased from 20% in 1990 to over 50% in 2014."

Actually, this are the real urban percentages given by the National Bureau of Statistics of China: 19.39% (1980), 26.41% (1990), 54.77% (2014). Source: http://data.stats.gov.cn/english/easyquery.htm?cn=C01

So, I'd leave the above sentence like this: "The percent of the country's population living in urban areas increased from 20% in 1980 to over 50% in 2014." Changing 1990 to 1980 and the souce of the data as well.

See you

Done —UY Scuti ^Talk 18:35, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

official and most commonly used version

Should we adopt or restore or (replace file) this flag with 7 February 2011 version of the flag 95.128.118.58 (talk) 12:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that there is no consensus for either keeping the current version or restoring the correct version, the former discssion was a decade ago and is not authoritative right now we need to have consensus for either keeping this. the lighter version is the official one and the one most commonly used. Also this current version being used in wikipedia is based on old original research.

95.128.118.58 (talk) 12:21, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]