Azerbaijan B‑class Top‑importance

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Armenia B‑class

Caucasian Albania is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to improve and better organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.ArmeniaWikipedia:WikiProject ArmeniaTemplate:WikiProject ArmeniaArmenian articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Iran B‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Iran, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Iran on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project where you can contribute to the discussions and help with our open tasks.IranWikipedia:WikiProject IranTemplate:WikiProject IranIran articles B This article has been rated as B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

	Caucasia Unassessed (inactive)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Caucasia, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.CaucasiaWikipedia:WikiProject CaucasiaTemplate:WikiProject CaucasiaCaucasia articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

Archives

Archive 1, Archive 2

I am noticing that the text of the article is not based on consensual agreement in regard to different viewpoints on the history and culture of "Caucasian Albania." In its entirety, it is a concoction of a couple of Azerbajiani nationalsit editors, who have a record of engaging in edit warring and were suspected in sockpuppetry. As a result, the text is based on POVs, and is a weird and poorly organized mix of myths, prejudices and other unencyclopedic entries. Erkusukes (talk) 17:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why anon IPs feel free reverting an article to version by User:Erkusukes without any discussion, but this needs to stop. In fact the same IP made only one other edit inserting POV/OR in 2008 Mardakert Skirmishes article.

Per Meowy's edit, Minorsky source cited in that line says Aluank not Aghuank. So perhaps, he can check the reference before attempting to insert the unreferenced title next time. Atabek (talk) 16:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot be accountable for the inaccurate typesetting of old 1950s books! Maybe Minorsky should have gone to a better publisher. It is, as I have explained (and as an anon editor has also explained at the end of the POV section) an "ł", not an "l", and is thus pronounced "gh". Meowy 19:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, please, Atabek do READ what I have written, don't go mindlessly doing reverts of this, like you did with Shusha pogrom. Meowy 19:29, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I don't have access to that specific book by Minorsky, but in his "Studies in Caucasian History" he spells it Alvank with a dot under the "l" to indicate that it is a "gh" sound - i.e. it is not an "l". That method of transliteration is not standard (but there isn't a universal standard anyway though ł is most common), so for a general readership I think it is best to render it in Wikipedia as a "gh". Meowy 19:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meowy, please, assume good faith with comments like "mindless". Caucasica IV is not a book but an article from Minorsky (perhaps you should read it first) is publicly available through JSTOR and otherwise, and it does use Alvank spelling. I go by references not by original research like above. And "Maybe Minorsky should have gone to a better publisher.", says who?... Thanks. Atabek (talk) 09:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Atabek, you were banned from editing the Shusha pogrom page for a month after, to quote the administrators words, "failing to actually read either their own edits or Meowy's talk page comments". That is what I was recalling when I warned against mindlessly doing reverts. If you cannot understand the limitations of printed typesetting, and the limitations of using fonts in Wikipedia that many users may not have installed, then leave this issue alone. In the book I cited, Minorsky spells Alvank using an "l" with a dot under it, to indicate it is pronounced "gh", it is not possible to reproduce this character in Wikipedia. Many users' computers will not display the crossed out "l" (ł), so "gh" is the best and most appropriate alternative. Meowy 16:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meowy, your revert warring on a number of articles related to Armenia and Azerbaijan, which comes along with habitual single-sided POV pushing along nationalist lines, has long been a fact in Wikipedia. And I shall also remind you that you were placed on a parole due to some of those disruptions along with other contributors. So perhaps, it's time to WP:AGF and start using a more WP:CIVIL language than words like "mindless" against a contributor, even if you oppose his/her views. Your personal grievances and overzealous assumptions of bad faith above have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this page or your edit.

"Best and most appropriate alternative" would be leaving "l" (in fact as written in Minorsky) and adding a little footnote on the spelling of the letter, rather than frivolously renaming the word, essentially establishing grounds for original research of other editors, claiming Albania originated from some Armenian word "aghu". Atabek (talk) 20:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not original research but a quote coming from primary sources - the works of Movses Khorenatsi and Movses Kaghankatvatsi. You can make assumptions about the phonetics from Russian translations as well as Armenian-language originals. And this is re-confirmed by secondary sources included in the text (like Hewsen). Remember that Movses Kaghankatvatsi borrowed the passage about Arran and the origin of name Aghvank from Movses Khorenatsi's "History of Armenia," text of which is available on the Internet. Erkusukes (talk) 22:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Erkusukes, Erkusukes is one of the sock accounts, possibly of Verjakette. The IP 149.68.31.146 is a sock as well. Enough said. Grandmaster (talk) 10:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly my prior request for CU on this [1] was almost inconclusive despite the obvious cases of sockpuppetry and vandalism involved. Anyways, in light of finding Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Erkusukes, all POV/OR edits by Erkusukes=Merjanov are to be undone. Per this comment, all edits by sock accounts are deemed vandalism [2], I will preserve all other edits made after Erkusukes vandalizing on this page. Atabek (talk) 19:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted copyright violations and the Azeri term. Please provide any historic materials which shows that there was such an Azeri term. And I'm kindly reminding you about the naming conventions in geographic and historic works. VartanM (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

VartanM, the comment above is not sufficient to remove a body of sourced material [3], why don't you provide references disputing the facts listed in the quotes you removed? Atabek (talk) 22:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Copypasted material from azer.com doesn't deserve an explanation. As for the name I'm still waiting for you to provide the references I asked for. VartanM (talk) 03:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the full list of Persian provinces, it is redundant, has no direct relation to this article and takes too much space, a reference to the respective source is sufficient. Grandmaster (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please point to a passage where Movses K. refers to "Udi script" Ironback (talk) 15:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC) This is crude POV. Ironback (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New user comes and restores all edits of Erkusukes/Jalaleddin/Rovoam. Very fishy. Please discuss first before restoring edits of banned user. I'm waiting for the results of investigation. Grandmaster (talk) 07:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please point to a passage where Movses K. refers to "Udi script" Ironback —Preceding comment was added at 23:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ironback, there is a need to first discuss the references or your restorations of banned User:Erkusukes edits. Your latest edits removed large portion of references and restored original research earlier inserted by a banned sock. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 23:42, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Imagine that a user said "Earth is round" and then she gets banned. Does it mean that everyone else should say after that "Earth is flat?" Stop it. You have no idea what you are sayng. Discuss the substance. Ironback (talk) 01:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Ironback is a confirmed sock, so I have rolled back the last edit. I have replied to Ironback's message on the users talk page. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 06:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The old map wasn't correct. I uploaded new one that has been made from here. Gülməmməd ^Talk 05:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I put the cleanup-spam tag because it looked like the article had been defaced. The background was black and the text was replaced by some message with a warning agains tomorrow. I am not sure how it was done. After putting the tag the article looks normal again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nielsle (talk • contribs) 15:07, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It looks Ok to me. Grandmaster (talk) 17:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK I removed the cleanup tag again. I am not sure what happened, but now it has gone. Nielsle —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:28, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The quote for this line:

Caucasian Albanians were one of the Ibero-Caucasian peoples...

Encyclopedia Iranica:

Hence Markwart, Eranshahr, p. 117, was doubtless correct when he spoke of Albania/Arran as being pre-eminently a non-Indo-European land; the Albanian tongue must have belonged to the Eastern Caucasian linguistic family, as is indicated by the recently-discovered table of the 52 characters of the Albanian alphabet, in which a few inscriptions have also been found by Soviet archeologists (see V. Minorsky, A History of Sharvan and Darband in the 10th-11th Centuries, Cambridge, 1958, pp. 11-12; the present Udi language, surviving vestigially in Shakki, is considered to be a remnant of it). [4] Grandmaster (talk) 12:16, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added reference from Armenian source confirming that Albanians were Ibero-Caucasian speakers, replacing the fact tag. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 01:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added Iranica too. Grandmaster (talk) 06:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a source which says, that Arran was the ancestor of the Albanians? And that he was the king of Albania? --Vacio (talk) 14:50, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First, please do not remove the reference to Hewsen, he says that Sisak and Hayk were not real persons:

Gegham. He is said to have left Armenia and gone to the shore of a great lake which was thence forward called Gegh, and to have settled people in a region called after him — Geghak’unik'. Gegham, then, was probably not a person but an eponym — a personification of the lake (now called Sevan) and district of Geghak’uni, whose names are actually derived from Welikuhi, the name of this region even before the time of Urartu, which conquered it in the late eighth century B.C. Sisak, brother of Harma and son of Gegham, can only be another eponym, and a late one at that. Sisak is said to have been the ancestor of the princes of Siwnik', a province on the southern border of Geghak’uni. It was called Sisakan by the Sasanids (who ruled Persia from 226 to 637 A.D.); this term was unknown to Armenian historiography before the seventh century A.D. and was first used by a Syrian writer only in the sixth century.

Robert H. Hewsen. «The Primary History of Armenia»: An Examination of the Validity of an Immemorially Transmitted Historical Tradition. History in Africa, Vol. 2. (1975), pp. 91-100.

And second, Moses of Kalankatuyk writes: [5]

Затем [царь] назначил им вождей и правителей, во главе которых по приказу Валаршака был поставлен некто из рода Сисака, одного из потомков Иафета, по имени Аран, который унаследовал долины и горы страны Алуанк, от реки Ерасх до крепости hЫнаракерт [***]. Из-за его [Арана] мягкого нрава страна эта была названа Алуанк, ибо из-за мягкого нрава звали его Алу. Многие храбрые и знатные из потомков этого Арана, говорят, были назначены Валаршаком Партевом наместниками и тысячниками. От его [Арана] сына, произошли племена [***] Утийского, Гардманского, Цавдейского, Гаргарского княжеств.

So he says that Aran was the ruler of Albania, from whom many Albanian tribes descended. Of course, it is just a legend, because all those tribes have no relation to Armenians, they are Caucasian people, and if Aran was Armenian, those tribes could have never descended from him. But the legend should not be taken seriously, this person never existed. --Grandmaster (talk) 06:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia rules require: Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. You quoted Kaghankatvatsi out of its context. If only you should read/quote what he mentioned above, you'd see how ridiculous you OR is. Kaghankatvatsi says, the Armenian king appointed Arran as governor of the Caucasian tribes. How he could be the ancestor of Albanians, when they already existed and Arran was their governor? Besides, Utik, Tsawdek (Artsakh) and Gardman were regions of Armenia, from 189BC till 387AD. And Kaghankatvatsi and Khorenatsi say that the principalities (княжеств) of this regions originate from Arran, nothing said about any Albanian tribe.

Further, I think you were the first one who removed sourced info[6],I only restored it.--Vacio (talk) 06:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You see, you make your own interpretations again. Movses never mentions any date for Aran's appointment, so how do you know when exactly it took place? Also, Movses says that he was the ancestor of the Albanian tribes, and the country of Arran (Albania in Persian) was named after him. So he was an eponym, and the ancestor of a number of Albanian tribes, according to the legend. None of those tribes had any relation to Armenians, so Aran could not be Armenian himself, as his descendant belong to a completely different language group. And he did not exist in real life too. Hewsen says that his supposed ancestor Sisak was not a real person. You keep changing it to "it is uncertain if they were real or imaginary". But no one says that Sisak was a real person. We only have a source that says that Sisak was a legend. Do you have any reliable third party source that claims otherwise? --Grandmaster (talk) 08:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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