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Lack of Objectiveness in Language?


"Known for his good looks, articulate speech, open-minded work ethic, and a generally liberal outlook, Bo's phenomenal rise from a municipal official to the Central government has been of great media attention and has since elevated his status to that of a political star. The archetype of a politician Bo presents is seldom seen with a generally serious and conservative leadership in Beijing. He has a reputation of a Kennedy-esque figure, his charisma known to media from the Mainland, Hong Kong, and even abroad."

It is unsourced, and seems irrelevant. Thoughts? Kunoichi 4 (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some of this is now sourced, but I would really like to know where the author of this paragraph got the rest of this information. It is consistent with how Bo is often portrayed publicly. Noting Bo's public persona is important because it relates to his relationship with the public, the media, and other senior members of the CCP.Ferox Seneca (talk) 02:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

From "Minister of Commerce" to "CCP Secretary of Chongqing"?

That's a huge demotion~! What happened? Anybody? TheAsianGURU (talk) 04:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Might be all the lawsuits he's getting for genocide of Falun Gong practitioners?--Asdfg12345 01:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. The CCP doesn't care that much about that. I think it's more like corruption or "ethics" stuff (aka relationship w/ short skirts secretaries, etc etc). Might be worth looking into it. I don't know, his political career might even end here. TheAsianGURU (talk) 04:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a demotion. In fact, he was raised to the Politburo just before he received this position. Chongquing is arguably the largest municipality in the world; it is not a place to put the disgraced or the incompetent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronald Collinson (talk • contribs) 12:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I like how you put ethics in quotation marks! But I thought this kind of thing was commonplace and even less to prick an eyebrow? I was also under the impression that the CCP is shaking in its boots over these cases. After Bo got a default judgement against him in a relatively recent case in Australia, where he was being sued for torture, the CCP got Australian immigration department to intervene in later cases and request immunity for the people who were getting sued--this happened soon after. These guys are also traveling around less as the cases get pushed forward; I guess time will tell.--Asdfg12345 05:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bo is very high up, (well, was...) and on the track to be a star. You can see the praises of propaganda sites everywhere. He must have tons of emeries. Something big must had happened, so that someone in the party, poked out all kinds of "ethics"/corruption problems against him. Otherwise, in order to bring down the Son of Bo Yibo, you better do your homework. Honey traps are minor, but I wanna point out 1 thing tho --- His kid, Bo GuaGua (薄瓜瓜), went to Harrow school and now studying at Oxford. How can Bo afford to send his kid to Harrow is still a question. Besides, the kid got way too much attention --- He went on photo shoots for varies magazines, including Esquire and stuff. This must got tons of hates from ppl. Well, we will see.
http://i22.tinypic.com/23ifrtc.jpg
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/chinas-blue-bloods-ignore-call-of-politics/2007/02/09/1170524304074.html (Aus. Newspaper Reporting, check it out) TheAsianGURU (talk) 05:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"In the People's Republic of China, a Party Committee Secretary, colloquially termed a party chief (党委书记), is the most prominent regional Communist Party leadership office, usually the number-one figure in their respective regions. For example, Yu Zhengsheng, the Communist Party Shanghai Committee Secretary, is the city's highest ranked leader, higher than the mayor." "Chongqing is the largest and most populous of the People's Republic of China's four provincial-level municipalities" Take a look at past Ministers of Commerce and you would see that they serve between either 3 or 5 years. Bo served his 3 and naturally goes to serve somewhere else. His current post of Secretary of Chongqing is hardly a demotion. Hanfresco (talk) 08:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Sure, Party Committee Secretary, sure Chongqing, sure 4 municipalities, sure…etc etc. The central committee is a place that every single CCP member wanna get in. It’s every Chinese bureaucrat’s dream to get in there. Bo was there (almost), he was born w/ the “Red Revolution Blood”, he is well connected, his family is powerful, heck, many people even think he is good looking. Just take a look – Guangzhou, Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjing, Shenzhen, Zhuhai, Chongqing, all these are the most powerful cities in China. How many of these “party secretaries” actually made to the central Committee? Any provincial official would tell you that they would trade everything to go to the central government. Bo himself came from Dalian, not a bad start, one of the most important cities in Manchuria. So according to the “unofficial party rule” that he “has” the “local experience” already, sending him back to any provincial government is surely a demotion. Of course, I don’t think he will stay in Chongqing forever, he is there to stay out of sight, to go “low profile” for a while, then when the time is right, he will come back. (I think) TheAsianGURU (talk) 19:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You obviously have a great deal of knowledge on the inner minds of China's most powerful politicians (sarcasm btw) and you already have the preconceived notion that regular party shuffling is a form of demotion. Bo is doing important work wherever he goes and whatever he does. Saying he is where he is purely because of his family and connections is disrespectful to not only Bo, but all of China. You too, should take a look at holders of important posts. Many have served in different parts of the country. China is a vast country and it is ridiculous to think one area is representative of her in entirety. In your future mature discussions, do not dismiss other people's arguments with a simple "sure". To prove other people wrong and to prove yourself right, you proud evidence that support yourself. So far the only thing you've convinced me of is that you often make assumptions and like to guess. You only needed to direct me to Political position ranking of the People's Republic of China page where it is clearly shown that ministry heads are ranked higher than provincial party chiefs to convince me. Hanfresco (talk) 03:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't trying to convince you. The only thing I said was – “I disagree.” As far as I can see - You guess as much as I do. I posted the question here to ask people to share their POVs on issues, that's all. TheAsianGURU (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The post of Mayor of Chongqing isn't a low-profile position, but is considered a less-prestigious position than Minister of Commerce, and Bo himself must have been hoping to move higher within the central government. Among the people I know who follow internal Chinese politics closely, this is considered a sort of demotion that is not serious enough to cause a serious loss of face. The main cause of Bo's move to Chongqing is usually cited as the number of serious consumer-quality issues that occurred (and were widely reported by the international media) during his term in office, and a general dissatisfaction among the more senior leadership with how Bo handled these issues. Suggestions that Bo moved to Chongqing because of anything to do with Fulan Gong are ridiculous and imply a poorly-informed interpretation of Chinese politics.Ferox Seneca (talk) 08:10, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone, and everyone who is interested in the inner working of Chinese communist system should read this book:The Party: The Secret World of China's Communist Rulers. Arilang talk 08:54, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Coolcool. I'll have to add it to the list.Ferox Seneca (talk) 01:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bo's role in the persecution of Falun Gong

Highly notable: The High Price of Diplomacy With China--Asdfg12345 01:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

His Son,

Recent featured on BBC News showing corruption and how a modest politburo member could afford to send his son to Oxford University. Plus, who wrote that he was expelled? The links are:

http://search.tianya.cn/shareview.jsp?id=5f0c3a973d5bb366f3856f05a78fa0ac http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2009/05/oxford-star-bo-guagua-scoops-top-award-in-britain/ http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/bo-xilai/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/jamesreynolds/2009/06/conflict_of_party_and_private.html#comments

Im not sure how to fit them in, sorry guys --CorrectlyContentious 17:25, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I added the "CN" Tag...I wanna know if he was really expelled also. The links above are not RS. Most of them are saying things like "I heard it from a friend" or "My friend who is at Oxford" or "Blah blah blah told me". Nah, doesn't work like that. TheAsianGURU (talk) 22:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Really suspicious

how all the additional links at the bottom lead to FLG websites. It's really quite infuriating how the FLG members have hijacked countless Chinese-related articles, yet still have their bullshit propaganda quoted as legitimate sources on Wikipedia.

Don't you all have something better to do, like burning yourselves to death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.159.247 (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IP editor 68.149.159.247, please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources :Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant-minority views that have appeared in reliable, published sources are covered;
  1. Jiang Weiping is a world famous Chinese reporter who had been thrown into jail by none other than Bo Xilai, because Jiang knows too much dark secrets of Bo and even dare to publish the secrets, so I would not call them bullshit propaganda. Arilang talk 23:26, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The truth is somewhere in between. Jiang Weiping does have a grudge against Bo, that much is for sure. As far as I can tell he is not against the Communist Party itself like the Epoch Times, but has certainly partnered with them because they all seem to be critical of some part of the CPC bureaucracy. In any case, I would warn against using Jiang's sources unless it is clearly stated who he is and that he is writing on behalf of the Epoch Times - a newspaper that does not have a shred of credibility. Colipon+(Talk) 00:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Colipon, please remember Wikipedia is not about Truth or Lies, True or false, it is about Reliable and verifiable. And your comment Epoch Times - a newspaper that does not have a shred of credibility is highly questionable, to say the least, and is there any difference if he is writing for The New York Times or The Epoch Times? Arilang talk 01:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Arilang, are you serious? How many does Epoch Times have to be discredited before you admit that they are not a reliable news source? NYT and Epoch Times are the two extremes of good and bad journalism that you can possibly find. Are you serious in your claims that they could be possibly put into the same level? Have you ever read Epoch Times? Go on it now and read some of their BS.192.17.205.72 (talk) 17:50, 24 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kristof NYT piece

On the topic of Falun Gong, here are some fairly heavy words from The New York Times China's Donkey Droppings By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Published: December 1, 2004

So what are China's new leaders, Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao, really like? Are they visionaries who are presiding over the greatest explosion of wealth the world has ever known? Or are they ruthless thugs who persecute Christians, Falun Gong adherents, labor leaders and journalists in a desperate attempt to maintain their dictatorship?

Jiang Weiping

China Releases Investigative Reporter Whose Jailing Had Upset U.S. By Philip P. Pan Washington Post Foreign Service


Jiang Weiping, a former bureau chief for the Hong Kong newspaper Wen Hui Bao, was arrested in December 2000 after writing a series of articles for the magazine Frontline that exposed corruption among senior officials in the northeastern province of Liaoning. He was then sentenced to eight years in prison on charges of revealing state secrets and inciting subversion. A higher court later reduced the sentence to six years. Jiang also reported that one of the Communist Party's rising stars, Bo Xilai, covered up corruption among friends and relatives during his years as mayor of the city of Dalian. Bo, who is the son of the party elder Bo Yibo, was serving as the Liaoning governor when Jiang's reports were published, and is now China's trade minister.


Arilang talk 12:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The story of Jiang Weiping is well-known and has been widely reported within the mainstream Western media and by nonprofit organizations representing the interests of international journalists. I don't know anything about his relationships with either Fulan Gong or media related to Fulan Gong, but the basic facts of his life and career have been openly reported by non-Fulan Gong sources.
http://www.cpj.org/blog/2009/02/a-twisting-road-to-canada-for-a-chinese-journalist.php
Ferox Seneca (talk) 06:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resignation from Politburo?

Rumors are swirling that Bo has offered to resign his Politburo position in light of the Wang Lijun scandal.[1] This is still hearsay at this point, but it may develop quickly. We should keep an eye on it.Homunculus (duihua) 02:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as how the New York Times had already reported this, it doesn't really matter whether this is hearsay or factual... verifiability takes precedence. Colipon+(Talk) 04:15, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that, but unless I'm missing something, the NYTimes piece doesn't make it clear which position he offered to resign from (Chongqing party chief or Politburo member).Homunculus (duihua) 04:27, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

March 2012

It's good to see this page getting more attention of late, though there's still quite a bit that can be improved upon. When I have more time I'd like to make some more substantive proposals and/or edits, but in the interim, I'd like to propose abandoning referenced to the political "right." Bo may represent the new left, but the opposite of the new left is not the right. Moreover, use of these terms is profoundly confusing to Western audiences uninitiated in Chinese politics. Most readers will invariably fail to understand how left=conservative in China, or that the opposite of the left are the progressives and would-be reformers.Homunculus (duihua) 06:29, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than redact references to the 'right' because people might not understand it, wouldn't the better approach be to link it to the relevant articles (or to create relevant articles) that would explain this distinction? Also, with a bit of digging one finds that the Chinese political spectrum is really not all that different from that of elsewhere in the world - Left means generally means socialism, redistribution of wealth, high public spending, high taxation, Right means market-economics, less government regulations, lower taxation, low public spending. It just happens that China's 'status quo' was the statist 'left' model, and thus to maintain the status quo is to be 'conservative'. Colipon+(Talk) 22:53, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, well, first, the sources that are used on the page don't classify Bo's opponents as the political right. Nor should they. Bo, in spite of his statist, populist policies, belong's to the faction of 'elitists' (ei. the Jiang faction, or the princelings), which advanced policies leading to unequal growth and promoted private enterprise in the first place. The opposing faction is commonly known as the populists (The Hu faction / the Tuanpai, which, in a general sense, is more representative of the new left). In their tenure, Hu and Wen promoted wealth redistribution and strengthened state-owned enterprises (often at the expense of the private sector). A more accurate characterization would be to contrast Bo to the liberals or reformers within the party. This is still reductionist, of course, just as any other attempt to distill Chinese factional politics into some kind of neat binary opposition, but it's better than left v. right. On another note, are you serious about creating a page to explain this? I don't envy the editors who would have to wade through that mess. Homunculus (duihua) 16:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You are absolutely right that this should not be portrayed as solely a left-right divide, but it has been portrayed as such by numerous Chinese and foreign media sources - particularly the war of words between Wang Yang and Bo Xilai. I don't think the left-right issue should be the focus at any point in the article, but it should be mentioned in passing. Colipon+(Talk) 16:39, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
How about we create a section titled something like "political alignment," where Bo's positions, ideology, and factional affiliations can be summarized.Homunculus (duihua) 22:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is the approach that I wanted to take as well - somewhat akin to a "political positions" portion of a US politician - it would mean, however, a drastic overhaul of the section currently called "political positions and ambitions". We need to maintain some sort of chronological order in the lead-up of the Wang Lijun scandal. Colipon+(Talk) 23:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have made an attempt, but there is more to be done. In the process, I gutted much of the previous section that contained remnant, unsourced opinions, and moved some of the relevant content into the new section on political alignment and affiliations. Take a look, let me know what you think.Homunculus (duihua) 00:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hom, your section on Bo's political views are very well-written! Great work! I do think, however, that his 'leftist' credentials need a bit more elaboration. In particular his 'cake' theory and his opposition to Wang Yang (which is very well-sourced) should be reinserted into that section. Also, I hope you don't mind moving that section to the bottom of the page as is the template on most other 'politician' articles. Colipon+(Talk) 01:03, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cake is undeniably important. I don't know what the structure of the article should be. I'll defer to your judgement for now.Homunculus (duihua) 01:09, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm very happy with where the article has been going with our collaboration. I think we can take it to GA, even. Colipon+(Talk) 03:36, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Of course we should make the article as good as possible, but I'm not sure about the viability of achieving GA status right now, given how fast the situation is evolving. If we were to accomplish this, we would need to keep close watch of developments to ensure it remains up-to-date and of a high quality. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't aim for GA. Just that we need not rush into it, lest we succumb to recentism. Speaking of evolving stories, it appears there is now a concerted crackdown on Maoist revivalism,[2] and new revelations about the catalysts for the Wang Lijun defection attempt.[3][4] Homunculus (duihua) 04:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fascinated to look over this article, especially since I was reading about Xilai in the American papers recently and didn't know the background to his political "fall." I'll spend more time in the coming days, but I'll mention a couple of my impressions right now, for the two of you and for others working on this article.

First, I sometimes have the impression that the article is written by two groups of editors, because some paragraphs look like they might have been written by a PR campaign manager, and others by those critical of him. The following three paragraphs are illustrative of the first type of writing:

Described in the Asia Times as good-looking, articulate and open-minded in his approach to problems,[1] Bo's rise from a municipal official to the central government generated great media fanfare and elevated his status to something of a 'political star.' Bo's political persona was considered a departure from the generally serious and conservative leadership in Beijing. With his youthful vigour, populism, and purported popularity with female reporters, Bo's political rise had been compared to that of John F. Kennedy. He became a darling of the media both in China and abroad.

Bo's term as Minister of Commerce saw a continued rise in foreign investment. His daily schedule was dominated with receiving foreign guests and dignitaries. By the time that he held the position of Minister of Commerce, he spoke relatively fluent and colloquial English, much to the delight of his guests, who were accustomed to dealing with translators. In May 2004 Bo was one of the few hand-picked Ministers to accompany Premier Wen Jiabao on a five-country trip to Europe. The trade policy of the United States toward China also sparked significant controversy, during which Bo kept a cool head as he attended talks in Washington.

Bo also oversaw the restructuring of the Ministry, whose formation was the result of the amalgamation of the National Economics and Commerce Bureau and the Department of International Trade. Bo sought to balance the amount of attention given to foreign investors and domestic commercial institutions. He began tackling the imbalance from the retail sector, whose success was largely dependent on foreign companies. He drew out plans to protect Chinese industries so they would not lose their place inside the Chinese market.

Much of the language above ("good looks... articulate... open-minded... youthful vigour... populism... popularity with female reporters... darling of the media... delight of his guests... kept a cool head... tackling imbalance from the retail sector...") is repetitious and doesn't feel encyclopedic.

Secondly, all these statements above have only one source, if they have any. I noticed that at one point Bo Xilai's tenure was described as free of corruption allegations, and this statement was followed by a sourced paragraph on allegations of corruption.

Would anyone mind if I took these kinds of paragraphs to the chopping block? I don't doubt that there may be truth buried in these various statements, but these assertions need to be referenced and written with a neutral tone.

Am looking forward to contributing! All best, -Darouet (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for looking those over. Actually, those specific paragraphs were written a long time ago, prior to the proliferation of sourcing policies on WP. I agree perhaps a more neutral tone is necessary. I have added a source to that section - a Chinese language article from 2005. It was an admittedly sympathetic piece, but there's little else out there that goes into detail about Bo's tenure as Commerce Minister. Colipon+(Talk) 16:46, 20 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quick suggestion: we may want to consider including a section that deals specifically with Bo's public image, and the media accounts of his character and style. His personality is among his main sources of notability, after all. Homunculus (duihua) 22:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

22 March (Allegations of impropriety)

An editor is removing allegations of impropriety and torture, saying in edit summaries that these allegations are fringe, etc.[5] I'm seriously tired of editors (always the same ones) deleting credible reports of human rights abuses. Bo was indicted for genocide in Spain, and found guilty of torture (by default judgement) in Australia. These lawsuits were cited by Wen Jiabao as a reason Bo should be ineligible for promotion. Yet Shrigley has changed this paragraph to read simply that "Adherents of the banned Falun Gong movement have filed several unsuccessful international lawsuits against Bo for overseeing the suppression of the group in Liaoning"—an edit that is patently misleading. Other sources allege Bo was involved in organ harvesting. This is to say nothing of serious corruption allegations. Reliable sources have reported on these things, they are notable, and they deserve more than passing mention. As to Wikileaks as a SPS, I raised this question on another page once, and was pointed to a RS discussion that concluded that these documents can be used. Homunculus (duihua) 21:49, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not personalize our comments, or induce editing patterns based on prejudice. I likewise tire of followers of small religiopolitical movements adding large amounts of poorly-sourced protest material to the biographies of provincial Chinese officials, but my feelings are irrelevant to the discussion.
Wikileaks' being an SPS does not mean that we cannot use it entirely. However, we should note that "if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else will probably have done so": preferably somebody with the relevant expertise for the weighty question of why Bo was moved to Chongqing. Reading the cable, the need for context about Wen's comment is apparent. "Bo's move to Chongqing puts an ambitious, arrogant and widely disliked competitor for a top position in a trouble-filled position far from Beijing... Wen's arguments found fertile soil among officials who still harbor resentment against Bo for his treatment of his family--particularly his father--during the Cultural Revolution (1966-76)." By using Wikileaks as a primary source, we are acting as historians and answering the complex question of "why was Bo moved from a national position to Chongqing" with a simple and tendentious answer: "because he persecuted Falun Gong". No doubt this reasoning makes sense to practitioners, but Falun Gong was never a major part of the narrative told by the reams of reliable secondary sources produced on this man.
I will defend my description of the lawsuits as "unsuccessful". First, the article on the Australia "default judgment" noted the dozens of frivolous lawsuits that Falun Gong followers had filed in similarly irrelevant jurisdictions. Second, it quotes an Australian law professor as saying that Bo is immune from the judgment by Australian law, and that Bo would not even dignify the lawsuit by invoking such an immunity. Likewise, the decision made in absentia against a broad range of Chinese officials by an eccentric Spanish judge had no practical consequences for Bo that reliable sources note, either personally or professionally.
On the Jiang Weiping issue, there is no need to survey Jiang's life and career in this article; he even has his own article. His corruption-related allegations must be given appropriate weight, against our sources that say there were few corruption complaints, and that Bo is perceived as clean and aggressively anti-graft. So we can note Jiang's contrarianism in a sentence, and readers can follow the footnote if they wish, but it is not appropriate to repeat the allegations in detail, as if they had widespread currency outside of the Epoch Times rumor mill.
If you have reliable sources that assert great significance to Falun Gong in this man's life story, then produce them for discussion. But despite the high visibility of this slanderous material in what should be a conservatively written biography over the past few days, my internet news search has produced no such results. May you be more successful than I! Shrigley (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It seems like you may be overreacting. The evidence seems to suggest that Bo is indeed a Big Bad Maoist, and his father was responsible for pushing Deng to fire on students in Tiananmen 1989. Probably for that reason, he opposes the vindication for the protesters sought several times by Wen Jiabao. His role in Liaoning needs to be kept in perspective. It was merely a part of his career, like his attempting to whip up Cultural Revolution II in Chongqing. His specific role in alleged unsubstantiated crimes is built on a foundation of cream cheese. Sure, he was probably terribly nepotist and corrupt too; Wang Lijun seems to suggest so, and I'm sure his allegations will be investigated. So yes, there's plenty of dirt on this guy, plenty of allegations. Like most of the dirty linen of the top brass, Bo's alleged transgressions will probably be dealt with behind closed doors. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 06:57, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I find the allegations against Bo by Jiang Weiping interesting and have studied them extensively. Bo and Jiang clearly have an axe to grind against each other - Jiang was angry that he was jailed for writing a few critical newspaper articles while Bo was angry that he was the subject of that very criticism. Whatever it may be, Jiang Weiping has penned a large number of attack pieces against Bo Xilai since his emigration to Canada. Many of those appear on Falun Gong newspaper Epoch Times; others appear on other Chinese-language newspapers and websites based in North America. AFAIK, Jiang is not actually linked to Falun Gong, he merely hates Bo Xilai's with passion and will vent this through whatever channel available. In any case, we should exercise some degree of caution with Jiang's reporting on Bo - but I would not go as far as Shrigley in reducing the Jiang narrative to a single sentence. Bo's corruption allegations are discussed on some of the recent news articles but very few go into detail or substantiate the allegations. However, if there are 'mainstream' news articles about Bo's corruption charges, especially those that relate to Jiang Weiping specifically, I would like to see it and I see no problems with incorporating it into the article, given due weight.

As for the 'torture' allegations and Falun Gong, I endorse Shrigley's position. The way that section was pieced together - from a hodge-podge of mostly 'primary' articles sourced to human rights websites and Wikileaks Cables, amounts to a textbook case of synthesis. Again I acknowledge that some secondary news sources have reported on the Falun Gong allegations but they evidently do not give much weight to it in the context of Bo's life. I would not remove the references to FLG entirely but I would keep it down to a sentence or two. The lawsuits are agreed upon by academics such as David Ownby and Heather Kavan to be a major part of Falun Gong's public relations campaign and should be taken as part of advancing the group's well-known political agenda.

I do think discussions need to remain civil on Wikipedia, and personal attacks should be kept to a minimum. While I have expressed concern and frustration over User Homunculus' edits at pages related to Falun Gong, I found working with him on this article to be a pleasant experience, and deliberately avoided editing the Falun Gong-related sections of the page lest we damage this environment of cooperation. But now the genie is out of the proverbial bottle I must voice what I think is reasonable to the subject matter at hand, which is not Falun Gong, but Bo Xilai.

As an aside, could we please mark the section titles of discussions with a subject rather than a date? It's easier for editors to find the topics of discussion that way. Colipon+(Talk) 13:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Shrigley, I don't know how you purport to know the religious beliefs of IP editors. But if by some gift of divination you have insight into this question, it is completely unacceptable to comment on another editor's religion, race, ethnicity, etc. as an form of ad hominem attack. I hope it won't happen again.
Regarding the Jiang allegations, I'm glad there's some agreement that these merit more than one sentence, given the fairly prominent coverage they received. Particularly since allegations of this nature turned out to be prescient. I don't know how much you have followed the news, but a couple days ago there were independently verified reports that Bo had sought to impede an investigation into his family, and this seems to have precipitated the Wang Lijun incident and Bo's sacking.
On the Falun Gong issue, you have all noted, in one form or another, that you do not believe that Falun Gong's claims of torture are true, (eg. stating that such allegations are 'based on cream cheese,' or are merely part of some inexplicable publicity campaign, for instance), and that if they are true, these "misadventures" are a "fringe concern" (to quote Quigley). One does not elicit an indictment for genocide on the basis of cream cheese, nor does one win a torture case without having been tortured. Torture and genocide are not fringe concerns, and if a person has been indicted or found guilty on these crimes, it is notable to their biography. In any event, your beliefs about the veracity of these claims does not matter for the purposes of this article (though, as a personal note, I find in these statements a callousness that is, frankly, disturbing).
The fact is that Falun Gong has filed a number of lawsuits against Bo Xilai, that some have been rejected due to jurisdictional issues and sovereign immunity, but that two of these at least have been successful (if only at a symbolic level). As such, Shrigley's characterization of them as "unsuccessful" is simply wrong. It is also apparently the case that these lawsuits were a source of some contention with the Hu/Wen faction, and may have been one factor in Bo's failure to receive a promotion in 2007. Finally, at least one reporter with a major newspaper has recently noted Bo's "ruthlessness" in pursuing Falun Gong as a source of controversy within the party. I don't think it's necessary to include Kilgour's discussion of Bo's involvement in organ harvesting; there's no way to state this concisely with all the necessary caveats and qualifications in place. However, it may be notable that Bo is on an RCMP watchlist, "among 45 alleged perpetrators of crimes against humanity accepted by [the Canadian] federal government's Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Program." As to synthesis, I don't really see it, but you are welcome to try to devise a better presentation.Homunculus (duihua) 14:37, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored some of the deleted content, corrected the mischaracterization of the lawsuit outcomes, and replaced a Renminbao source that did not support the statement it was attached to. I tried to keep the Jiang allegations concise, because I don't want casual readers to think that Bo himself was the one with mistresses and a gambling problem. Now, if we can get off the ideological debates, there are some pragmatic ones to discuss here. First, there is a real paucity of information on Bo's tenures in Dalian and Liaoning—so much so that they're not even given their own sections. This is not hard to remedy, as there is a fair bit of information available that speaks to the way in which Bo transformed Dalian, etc. It's actually pretty interesting (for instance, there is more continuity than I thought between his policies in Liaoning and Chongqing). I can work on building this out, but Colipon had previously alluded to the idea of a larger restructuring that moves away from the chronological approach. Colipon, I'd like to hear your ideas on how that might look. Homunculus (duihua) 16:00, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To your accusations of "callousness", I note that the Wikimedia Foundation implores us to be extra cautious when writing about individuals (such as Bo), rather than about corporations, cults, or other collectives.
I'm glad we can agree that our own beliefs about the significance of the accusations don't matter, and that secondary sources' judgments are what matter. So far, you've brought a new source from the Telegraph. Although I still have concerns that including it is cherry-picking (if 1 source mentions Falun Gong, and 10,000 don't, are we doing the subject justice?) I have retained that source.
On the other hand, you noted yourself that there is agreement against putting Bo on trial-by-Wikipedia. In other words, although we can report basic facts such as that Bo was sued, we don't have reliable sources to comment on the relevance of any judgments. There is simply a lack of reliable sources asserting that the lawsuits had any direct impact on Bo's life trajectory. I hope "ineffectual" is more agreeable word to you than "unsuccessful", since you yourself describe them as "symbolic".
No new sources were provided on Jiang Weiping's allegations, except a CPJ blog which detailed Jiang's arrest. The arrest is not directly relevant to Bo's life, and says nothing about the veracity of the allegations, so I have removed it as better appropriate to the biography of Jiang. Likewise, the Kilgour-Harris opinion piece attacking Bo is not an appropriate source for facts. At the time of this writing, I still worry that the article implies that FLG was a major reason why Bo got (or didn't get) certain party posts, but I am optimistic that this imbalance can be rectified with more text exploring conventional explanations, rather than with the removal of material. Shrigley (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In my view Quigley is overreaching in his role as a Wikipedia editor. (I've been watching this dispute but did not want to get involved in yet another drawn out discussion.) Simply put, the Taipei Times or Australian source cited doesn't say anything about the lawsuits being ineffectual. And Quigley is not the one who decides whether a lawsuit does or does not have an effect. On the other hand, Homunculus's additions about the torture allegations and suits are simple, brief (too brief, in my view), and clearly cited to reliable sources. I don't see any justification for the removal of this obviously notable and wp:rs material, and as such have restored it, and would ask Shrigley to please guide his editing by our content policies. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 20:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think I speak for everyone (or, at least, for most of us) when I say that I'm not interested in continually litigating these ideological struggles. I'm interested in improving this page, and am dismayed that constructive collaboration has been derailed. Shrigley, this section should state the facts of what happened. It is not the place to editorialize on the impact, success, or effect of these lawsuits, nor is it appropriate to attempt to delegitimize the seriousness of these charges by calling the victims members of a cult, or by making insinuations about other editors. I hope that's clear. Homunculus (duihua) 21:20, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added some stuff and will add more later. Hopefully no one will see cause to delete it. That would be unfortunate. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 21:05, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you will consider assisting in the task of building out other portions of the page. Relative to other information on Bo's time in Liaoning, the FG issue is currently given inordinate weight. I think the paragraph you added could be reduced while retaining the essential meaning. More important is that other facets of Bo's policies and position need to be described in greater depth (and with better sources).Homunculus (duihua) 21:31, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • will have some more ideas on this later, but if the cables are RS then we have a reliable source saying that the reason Bo was sent to Chongqing was because of the FLG lawsuits. in those circumstances I'm not sure the issue has been given enough weight? Anyway. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 15:12, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can extrapolate that this was the reason Bo was sent to Chongqing. More likely there were several reasons. One hypothesis I've seen is that when Bo Yibo died, it became easier for oppositional factions to send Bo the younger to the interior. Also, note that Wen Jiabao has never particularly liked Bo Xilai. The international lawsuits may have given him leverage to argue his case against Bo's promotion, but it would have been only one factor among many. Also, I'm not 100% comfortable with using diplomatic cables as a source to begin with, so I wouldn't want to hang too much on them.Homunculus (duihua) 17:05, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does it matter what particular editors are comfortable with if the sources are reliable? How is this source any less reliable than any other possible source on a topic like this? And do your theories above have any reliable sources at all? We can only use what we've got. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 19:02, 25 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Completely fine to summarize the content and whatever else, but what about this change [6]  ? It changes it from saying that it was because of the Falun Gong lawsuits that Wen opposed Bo's ascendancy in the central government, to his "negative international profile". I eagerly await an explanation. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 02:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • There's no need to flog it to death unless you're the Epoch Times. When I changed it, it was part of the 'Falun Gong', er, Liaoning section. And it's then more than obvious to what that "negative international profile" referred. It was only later on that I moved it. Where it's currently located, its also suited because it's more general, and not a departure from what Wen apparently said. And it then becomes obvious when reading the whole article to what that refers; that said, we shouldn't be taking leaked cables as gospel. The lawsuit issue, as mentioned hereabove, is not the only reason Wen opposes Bo for the top body but just a convenient peg to hang his objections on. Wen is a reformist and dislikes hardliners, particularly such "objectionable" ones as he. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let's take a look at the cable:

26. (S) Nanjing's Professor Gu said Bo's move to Chongqing puts an ambitious, arrogant and widely disliked competitor for a top position in a trouble-filled position far from Beijing. Gu noted that Bo had been angling for promotion to Vice Premier. However, Premier Wen had argued against the promotion, citing the numerous lawsuits brought against Bo in Australia, Spain, Canada, England, the United States, and elsewhere by Falungong members. Wen successfully argued Bo's significant negative international exposure made him an inappropriate candidate to represent China at an even higher international level. Wen's arguments found fertile soil among officials who still harbor resentment against Bo for his treatment of his family--particularly his father--during the Cultural Revolution (1966-76). In order to make himself politically above reproach, Bo, at the time, had made a public statement denouncing his father and renouncing his kinship ties. Gu said that people value familial feelings above all else and many see Bo as a "base traitor" who is "less than human" for his actions.

We're not concerned with what other, non verifiable reasons Wen might have had (and I agree with you, he probably had a gaggle, and even more after Bo started his antics in Chongqing), but in the above it seems that there is only this one issue mentioned: the FLG lawsuits and the negative exposure they brought. The idea of keeping Bo out was then welcomed by others for other reasons. You deleted the part about the "negative exposure" being related to the lawsuits. You haven't explained why, instead presenting your own theories for what is significant. I suggest it be restored to how it was so the page is in line with the reliable source. I have no particular affections for this group, anymore than any other group in circumstances such as these, but I see no need to try to tippy-toe around issues associated with them. Let's just tell it like it is. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 14:11, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Again, the issue is not RS, or V, but really undue weight, which is one of the fundamental aspects of WP:NPOV. So far, in mainstream sources, only a handful out of hundreds articles on Bo make mention of Falun Gong's allegations against him, and even those that do (such as Malcolm Moore's article) mentions it only in passing - barely half a sentence in length. What we have done is essentially cherry-pick what we could find out of a disparate series of primary sources of Falun Gong-related material and plastered it in the section on Liaoning when it truly has little bearing on Bo's life. Even if you argue from the Wikileaks cable that Wen had beef against Bo because of Falun Gong, you have to think about why this wasn't reported on any stories from major newspapers regarding Bo's downfall. If the lawsuits really did have such a negative impact on Bo then we should see that reflected prominently in our collection of secondary sources, which we don't. In fact, a search for the keywords "Bo Xilai" and "Falun Gong" yields only results from Falun Gong advocacy websites New Tang Dynasty Television, The Epoch Times, and and Faluninfo.net, and this Wikipedia article. As such, I repeat my position from earlier: I am not against the inclusion of Falun Gong material, but only if it is given the due weight commensurate to the actual impact it had on Bo's life. Colipon+(Talk) 14:48, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Colipon, your changes are fine to me. OhConfucius, I'm a little reticent about moving the Wikileaks cable, but it's okay where you put it. I would advise that it be edited slightly to reflect the actual content of the cable, however. As has been pointed out, it did not refer to negative media exposure; it referred explicitly to the lawsuits brought by Falun Gong. I hope we can set this aside now. I'm going to start working on other aspects of the page.Homunculus (duihua) 16:21, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Undue weight? What is due weight, then? It was 100 words in an article of 4,000 words. That is 0.025%. Is that undue weight? Now it's 69 words, which is 0.01725%. Colipon, I would be very intrigued to see how you made the calculation of what weight was due, accurate to so many decimal places! Please help me here. And the way the lawsuit issue was sidelined hasn't been addressed. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 17:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let me make a comparison. U.S. President George W. Bush has a large number of 'crimes against humanity' charges, indictments, lawsuits, etc., coming from multiple jurisdictions and a wide array of interest groups. There is absolutely no mention of this on his Wikipedia page. That makes due weight on his article 0%. If it were up to me, I would say a case can be made for 0% on this article as well. But I have chosen to compromise to find a solution that is acceptable to us all. Colipon+(Talk) 18:42, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, your calculations are wrong. 100 words/4000 is 2.5%. Now it is at 1.75%. Colipon+(Talk) 18:45, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To my knowledge George Bush has not been indicted or found guilty of torture or genocide. Bo Xilai has, and the lawsuits against him appear to have played a fairly significant role in shaping his political career. There's no need to obfuscate here; we can state the facts clearly and concisely. I think what's on the page now is fine. I also think it was fine before. Can we move on now? Homunculus (duihua) 19:34, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what the hell you're on about, considering that the reputable human rights organizations like Amnesty International has called for the arrest of George W Bush [7] over waterboarding, and the CCR also filed similar suits against the Bush Six [8], which is far more notable than stunts from an alleged cult. And Bo Xilai wasn't indicted or found guilty of torture either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.101.198.242 (talk) 09:39, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • This is not a forum
  • The use of pejorative slurs against a religious group is a violation of one of the core pillars of Wikipedia, WP:Civility
  • Bo Xilai was found guilty of torture in Australia in 2007, and was indicted on charges of genocide and torture in Spain in 2009.
  • While we're on the subject, the article on George Bush devotes considerable space to describing his controversial policies on torture, and the international response to them. In fact, it appears to be the source for the criticisms you've cited above. If we were actually to use that page as a guide to notability on such things (it has achieved good article status, after all), its treatment of this subject would suggest that we have been extremely conservative in handling the very serious accusations against Bo. Homunculus (duihua) 12:25, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spoken like a true Epoch Times sheep, shouldn't you be loitering outside the Chinese embassy? I'm simple calling a spade a spade, and since when it's wrong for me to call Falun Gong what it is yet it's ok for you to use slurs against the CCP government? LMAO I know that everyone has to make a living, but could you please stop making it so obvious? And I take Amnesty International and CCR's authorities over over the cult anyday. Falun Gong is a C-C-CULT dead with it.

Bo Xilai & Hu Jintao

Currently a passage from the "organized crime" section reads:


While ordinarily I trust Willy Lam's analysis, and I authored the passage in question myself, this case may require further corroboration, given recent developments, which raise sufficient doubts about how 'in line' Bo was with the central leadership. It would seem that Bo's 'go-at-it-alone' attitude was part of what got him in so much trouble, and would seemingly disprove the idea that Hu was calling the shots from Beijing. The original passage from Willy Lam (via Jamestown Foundation) is as follows:

Hong Kong papers have reported that the Chongqing “anti-triad tornado” was made possible only after President Hu Jintao had personally given approval to the unprecedented crackdown. Bo indirectly confirmed this by saying late last month that the “anti-triad operation was handled by the party central leadership” and that it was “not a case of Chongqing trying to set a sensational example” (Guangzhou Daily, October 17; China News Service, October 29; Chongqing Daily, October 29). While Bo seems to be striking a delicate balance between praising Beijing’s leadership on the one hand and claiming credit for having done the right thing on the other, neither the CCP authorities nor the gung-ho regional “warlord” has been able to reassure the nation about the viability of China’s legal apparatus.

Any opinions on how to best represent this passage would be welcome. Colipon+(Talk) 19:58, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that in his recent grand defense Bo said that it wasn't just him and his Chongqing boys involved, but all sorts of other judicial and law enforcement apparatuses, including the central government's politico-legal committee etc. etc. He was spreading the responsibility. Truth factor unknown, but it may be a bit early to discount this central-involvement thesis entirely. The Sound and the Fury (talk) 20:04, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Still missing - Taxi strike, rural rights, Dalian

I think the article is really coming together with the help of multiple editors. There are just a few more things to consider that still lack coverage here - significant projects/achievements of Bo. First is the Chongqing taxi drivers strike. It happened in 2008, just a year after Bo took over as party chief, and a large number of articles have been written about it in the Chinese media (English language coverage here). In fact, if we had more resources, it could very well be an article in its own right. The second is the rural rights campaign, which is part of the reason Bo is so popular in Chongqing. He gave residents subsidized housing, education, and health care privileges once only accessible to 'urban' residents. Finally, his time in Dalian needs to be given more due weight. Sources could be hard to locate for that, though. If we can achieve these things I forsee this becoming a 'good article' candidate, and the most comprehensive resource on learning about Bo Xilai for general readers and Chinese politics enthusiasts alike. Colipon+(Talk) 17:30, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'll add to the to-do list. The Dalian section should include a discussion of his establishment of free trade zones and other 'special favors' he procured for the city. There should be a section about his media and public image. The "Chongqing model" should have a section that presents it as a holistic approach to resolving a variety of social, moral, political and economic needs facing China, with a brief discussion of why that was potentially challenging to the party brass in Beijing.Homunculus (duihua) 23:07, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And another: I suggest that the page should have a section dedicated to discussing the significance of Bo, and of his ouster from Chongqing. And to that end, this article from Foreign Policy[9] is quite excellent. It's mostly focused on Wen Jiabao, but speaks to the overall significance of the factional divisions. It is the most detailed and evocative account I've seen of Bo's experiences during the Cultural Revolution, though some of these details focus more broadly on the Red Guards at the No. 4 High School, and don't explicitly implicate Bo. Homunculus (duihua) 03:18, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I read that article, and was about to do an injection of content on the Wen Jiabao article. Just lacking the time to do this right now. Perhaps we can just add a paragraph into the "political alignment" section? Colipon+(Talk) 04:51, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Ewing, Kent. (2010, 19 March). "Bo Xilai: China's Brash Populist". Asia Times. Asia Times Online (Holdings). Retrieved on 16 June 2011.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bo_Xilai&oldid=484817657

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