India: Cities Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject India, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of India-related topics. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page.IndiaWikipedia:WikiProject IndiaTemplate:WikiProject IndiaIndia articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Indian cities.

This is not a forum for language-bias discussions or politics. Any such messages will be deleted.

Archives of older discussions: 0

I have archived the old Talk page for two reasons:

1. It was huge (125 kb+)
2. It really had nothing in it that contributed towards the improvement of the article.

Let's use this space from now on to discuss factual improvement of the article, and not indulge in politics or speculation.

For starters, I think this article needs some updates to information related to Belgaum

• Connections (air, rail, broad, bus)
• Rise of importance as an "education city"

and let's try and clean out political commentary and editorialization.

Let's make this a great article!

Achitnis 04:51, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Make sure to keep its NPOV intact.Glorification of either side's stand will lead to conflict.Thanks. Mahawiki 04:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to recommend that the section "Recent developments" be removed or extensively edited to be more concise. It is the largest section in the article and reduces the readability and interest-worthiness of the article, by introducing needless detail and analysis, none of which add value to the article. This is really not a cricket match where we have to report ball by ball. :)

I would suggest removal of this section, and updating the previous section ("Border problems") with only a few lines about the current developments, with links for further off-site reading.

I volunteer to do this if the suggestion is acceptable.

This suggestion is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of any viewpoint - I am concerned about the readability of the article and the value it offers to readers.

Achitnis 05:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have created a draft to replace the current text. I have tried to keep it as neutral as possible. Non-political comments are invited. Please note that Wikipedia is neither a newspaper nor a repository for future information, and does not chronicle every fact in existence. We should use links to off-site information to avoid distracting readers from the main article.

Achitnis 06:34, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since there haven't been any objections, I am replacing the above sections with the contents of my draft.

I would again remind everyone that this is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper or a political propaganda vehicle. The idea behind this rewrite was to depoliticise the overall article, and I am going to be pretty ruthless about enforcing this. Belgaum's page on Wikipedia deserves better than being an unreadable collection of political statements by rivalling factions. Worst case situation, I will propose a "Belgaum Border Dispute" article, move the border dispute issues to that article, and link to it from the main Belgaum article.

Achitnis 07:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted to the admin's version.I had urged u to keep the NPOV intact and include all details about Maharashtra's stand which was in the old version.It seems u have not read the old version properly.Centre has cancelled his anti-Maha stand long before.There was too much emphasis on Karnataka assembly in ur version.I request u to brief the existing matter rather than reword it.Maharashtra's stand also be given importance as karnataka's.Mahawiki 09:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can see that we are going to have a battle on our hands unless you accept the fact that this is an encyclopedia, and that this is an article about the city of Belgaum, not about interstate politics.

You are doing exactly the thing that you are accusing others of doing - you are flooding this article with completely irrelevant political details and propaganada, all of it Maharashtrian. Can you count how many times you refer to to Maharashtra in that section, mahawiki? I am a Maharashtrian, but I care more for the effectiveness of an article about my hometown than politics. That section you are protecting there is ugly, meaningless, distracting and completely irrelevant to the city of Belgaum. If you want that text to remain on Wikipedia, please move it to an article named Belgaum Border Disputes, and we can link to that from the Belgaum article.

Would you like to take this to arbitration?

Achitnis 11:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the record, 31% of the article is dominated by the border dispute text, which is also extremely badly written and has no precedent on Wikipedia. And I am not saying that the border dispute does not exist - I am saying that it doesnt belong into an article about a city that has a lot more to offer than politics. According to me (as a person actually from Belgaum), this entire border dispute text should be made a separate article.

In addition, you have wiped out all other edits from the article, including my work in other sections such as on educational institutions.

Achitnis 12:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dear achitnis, I appreciate ur views.For god's sake dont threaten me about arbitration etc as I have gone beyond it.U say there's many mentions of Maharashtra here,dont u see the Kannada POV pushing in other articles.I mean see the archived talk.I am sick of POVs.I request u to keep the border dispute section BRIEF,BALANCED AND NEUTRAL. I dont want to push Maharashtra's POV here.So i request to go through the old Border dispute article,summarise it and make sure u keep it neutral and balanced.I have no intentions of pushing Maharashtra's POV.Of course u can make a new article outta it. Mahawiki 12:28, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You have gone "beyond arbitration"? :) Could you show me where? If you can show me that you have had this article in arbitration and were successful, I will back off. If not, I am afraid I will not change my stand about this matter.

Just out of curiosity - where in Belgaum do you actually live? I am from Anagol/Bhagyanagar.

Achitnis 13:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that this section be redone. It is really of interest only to very few people in a global readership context.

Instead of just listing out a number of institutions, I suggest we replace this section with some text about the growth of the professional colleges, with a few examples in terms of genre (engineering, medicine, etc.) rather than trying to make this a place to list every institution of note in Belgaum. Please understand that every institution is of note to people associated with it, so this could become a never-ending story. :)

Achitnis 06:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have rewritten this section, and provided links to the VTU and KU, which is a more logical place to list affiliated institutions.

Achitnis 08:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Belgaum is a very important centre for industry. Yet this article hardly touches upon this. We need to fix this. Any volunteers from Belgaum knowledgable about this who could provide information in the Industry section?

Achitnis 08:18, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have asked admin to make it shorter.I hope it will saisfy ur wish.Thanks.Mahawiki 13:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mahawiki has violated rules far too many times with this article to be allowed to continue the politicization of this article. In accordance with Wikipedia rules, I am requesting arbitration by admins. Achitnis 14:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged this article as disputed, for attention of admins. The dispute is about the large amount of politically motivated material introduced by User:Mahawiki. I had forked out that material to Belgaum border dispute to avoid further issues and linked to it from the main article, but he has repeatedly reverted out all my edits.

Achitnis 14:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The matter appears to be resolved at this time. Achitnis 15:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This section is a thorough mess! We need to do better than this if we ever want this article to get nominated for article of the day. :)

The first para is so 19th century (except for the last sentence referring to Sambra).

The list is a mess as well - some of the links are plain wrong (like Jamia Mosque!), others are 404, etc.

Should we clean up the list and then start adding things in a slightly structured and verified manner?

Achitnis 16:11, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I am deleting all the content for now. Editors please add only attractions in city of Belgaum (+may be places in 20km radius), not places around it. Also whenever you add some place please include some details, dont just list them. Leotolstoy 21:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest we put the old list of places here in the talk section (cleaned up of course), so that people can pick from that and add to the article along with descriptions. Makes it easier for people to get started.

Achitnis 15:47, 3 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hi I removed a external link which was a kannada fanatic news item irrelavant to this article.If anyone includes it again,I am ready with many pro-Marathi links.The neutral editors are requested to ask KNM and other kannada editors to not place it again.

Mahawiki 06:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mahawiki - provide evidence that the article linked to is inaccurate before removing again. This link has been in place for a long time but has never been objected to by you. It has therefore stood the test of time and scrutiny - including by you. And I have warned you about trying to politicize this article. The only fanatism I see here is yours. Achitnis 08:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, The Hindu is not even a newspaper of Karnataka for you to call it a Kannada fanatic source. Even otherwise, The Hindu is a far more notable, credible and reliable source compared to your unabashed POV. You are nobody to give a certificate for a source. The Hindu is accepted as a notable, credible and reliable source and it is cited in countless articles on Wikipedia. If you have problems with it, go get an admin. Sarvagnya 08:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr.Achitnis,I would request u to be civil and refined.I have not objected before because pro-Marathi links have been transfered by Belgaum border dispute move.Before even commenting on this just see the link and answer me why it should be there.Of course if u want it there,I can get a pro-Marathi link too.I have told u N no of times that the Belgaum article has to be balanced.It will be nice if u dont go sarvagnya's way.Mahawiki 11:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mahawiki - I have certainly not been uncivil, but I find your fanatism deeply offensive. I have asked you to stop politicising this article. As I have said, there is *no* proof whatsoever that the Hindu article is inaccurate, and the very fact that it is from the Hindu is enough proof that research has gone into it. But nevermind all that - this link has been in the article for a long time - how come you wake up only *now* and try to remove it?

The reality is that it opposes your POV, and therefore, by your logic, it must be inaccurate.

I have told you before that unlike you, I *am* from Belgaum. I know the people of Belgaum, and the situation there. I do not deny that there is a dispute, but the Government of Maharashtra is honourably disputing it in court, why are you bringing disrepute to all us Maharashtrians by going around spitting on people? We are not like that!

Unlike your other "targets", I *am* a Maharashtrian, many people here know who I am and will vouch for this fact (and you can easily google for it, too). I don't have to prove myself to you - but do you even have the guts to state your real name? How do we know who you are, and what your motives are behind all your fanatism?

Please let people of Belgaum speak for themselves, don't attempt to become their spokesman - you are not qualified to be that.

Just leave us alone!

Achitnis 12:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was opposing the link because it is irrelavant to this article.Never mind,let that link be there,I have added 2 Marathi links too.So that wiki users can also able to know whats Maharashtra's POV.

BTW,the way ur speaking about the border issue tells ur story.I dont care to google ur name etc.If u want my name I can surely give it to u.What fanaticm,mind ur words?Did u notice how ur Kannadi friends are deleting 'unrest' mentions from the dispute article and adding unnecessary details about Mahajan report?

The way R.R Patil was received in Belgaon and the way Kannadi goons disrupted Belgaon during Bandh is known to all.My aunt is from Dharwad who's a tulu and do u know she talks about Tulu nadu everytime.get this into ur head and ur Kannada friend's head too.

BTW I reallty dont need ur permission to edit Belgaon article.Dont think ur the representative of Belgaonkars.In fact i dont care if u r from belgaon or no.

So cut the crap and limit ur talk to relavant topics.I dont care if ur a celebrity or a clerk.

Mahawiki 12:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My deluded friend - I am not a celebrity. I am from Belgaum. You are not. You are just a troublemaker who has crossed the line far too often here. Achitnis 08:47, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed link to the article that Mahawiki had put in to push his POV again, since it is non-english and this is en.wikipedia.org. However, at the same time I have also removed the link to the Hindu article, not because I believe that it should be removed, but because Mahawiki is using it as an excuse to plug in political links. Should he attempt to reinstate his link now, he will have to defend his actions in WP:RfC.

Mind ur language.Do u lack the insight to see Kannada POV pushing?Dont blame me and act too smart.Nice that u removed the link and I wont add it again.This is a last warning to u,Mr.celebrity,stop pushing ur POV here.

Mahawiki 09:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have retained all links. We cant rob WP readers of a good article because one person gives himself the right to play judge on anything and anyone from Belgaum's history to Kannada lanugage to Rajnikanth to Rajkumar to Suryakanth Kamath to Rashtrakuta to Shivaji to The 'great' Shivaji. Enough is enough!! Mr.Chitnis, I urge to to go ahead and remove those Marathi links if you want. And if he resists, please call in the admins. The Hindu link is about Belgaum's history and is as relevant as an external link can get on this page. Hell, if we can have a link on a Srihari Mandir and one on job seekers!! And in any case, much as Mahawiki might delude himself, I dont see en.wiki readers downloading and installing crappy font to read a tabloid. Let those links remain as vestigeal organs to this article until some admin or somebody bulldozes it. Sarvagnya 10:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well if u dont know Maharashtrians would prefer Pudhari and Belgaon Tarun Bharat rather than ur 'crappy' Deccan Herald or Vijaya Karnataka!

Mahawiki 11:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sri Harimandir is a an important landmark of Belgaum, and many people actually know Belgaum because of it so it is completely valid. (This is of course something Mahawiki doesn't know about since he has nothing to do with Belgaum, and probably has never been there :) BTW - I lived for many years in the house next to Harimandir, waking up every morning to "Om Namaha Shivaya" chanted by hundreds of people, some of them sitting in our garden.

The jobseekers link was a bit over the top and I agree that it had no place there.

The Hindu link talked more about the Border Dispute, but from the Karnataka perspective, which was what of course triggered off our fanatic friend. Let's move it to the Belgaum Border Dispute article (where it makes more sense), and be done with it.

Achitnis 10:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

TG!Mahawiki 11:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]