Cannabis Ruderalis

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::::No. No it is not. At least not by anyone other than ideologues and POV pushers that don't understand how absurd the finger pointing is. Every President since Truman has used a teleprompter. It's no different(other than giving you a better tool) than having notes at the podium. And it's a Hell of a lot better than [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/10/sarah-palins-hand-notes-r_n_456432.html writing on your hands]. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 23:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
::::No. No it is not. At least not by anyone other than ideologues and POV pushers that don't understand how absurd the finger pointing is. Every President since Truman has used a teleprompter. It's no different(other than giving you a better tool) than having notes at the podium. And it's a Hell of a lot better than [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/10/sarah-palins-hand-notes-r_n_456432.html writing on your hands]. [[User:DD2K|Dave Dial]] ([[User talk:DD2K|talk]]) 23:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::What's absurd is you responding with '''"No. No it is not."''' when you have a nice shiny link posted showing exactly that in my original comment. Your opinions on the talking heads and Sarah Palin have nothing to do with that. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 23:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
:::::What's absurd is you responding with '''"No. No it is not."''' when you have a nice shiny link posted showing exactly that in my original comment. Your opinions on the talking heads and Sarah Palin have nothing to do with that. [[User:Arkon|Arkon]] ([[User talk:Arkon|talk]]) 23:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

:Teleprompter usage isn't extraordinary, that's the thing. It is only in the fringe wingnut portions of the media realm (i.e. non-[[WP:RS|reliable sources]] that made it out to be a ''bad'' thing. That's the point. The HuffPo link above is just a simple mention of a siation where he couyldn't use one, nothing more. [[User:Tarc|Tarc]] ([[User talk:Tarc|talk]]) 00:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:33, 22 June 2013

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Featured articleBarack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Obama smoked cannabis in college, and not just high school

Obama smoked cannabis beyond high school. Article indicates only high school: " At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."

It should read something like: "... expressed regret for his high-school and college drug use."

Obama Recalls Getting Buzzed. By Steve Bloom. Apr 29, 2013. Steve Bloom is "Publisher of CelebStoner.com, co-author of Pot Culture and Reefer Movie Madness, and the former editor of High Times." Article quote:

Now that Colorado and Washington have legalized marijuana, Pres. Obama is softening up about pot. He made light of his college use at the White House Correspondents' Dinner on Saturday night.

"I remember when buzz feed was just something I did in college around 2 am," the toking president said in reference to the website as well as his own days as a collegiate choomer. "It's true."

There are probably references elsewhere in his autobiography, others' biographies of him, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like your right, though I don't think a minor pro-pot publication is a great source. The actual quotation he mentions does not directly admit to smoking pot, it's a joke and it is about things "one did", not him personally. I would check for other sources but it would harsh my mellow. The article already contains more than enough information on the subject but I'd support altering it to mention that he smoked pot in high school and college. The exact wording of your edit is incorrect though, because it's a statement about what he said at the 2008 dinner, not what he actually did in college or said in 2013. Also, the quote from 2013 hardly sounds regretful. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We cannot use coverage of his speech at the White House Correspondents Dinner as a reliable source for him smoking pot in college. We have no idea whether or not he was joking. If we go ahead and use this source for that, we may as well change his birthplace to Krypton, per an earlier speech at the same event. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aw, bummer. This might require work. :) Being the WikiSloth slacker that I am... I found the transcript for the reference in the article: Saddleback Presidential Candidates Forum. Aired August 17, 2008. CNN.com - Transcripts. Emphasis added:
WARREN: OK, all right. Let's talk about personal life. The Bible says that integrity and love are the basis of leadership. This is a tough question. What would be, looking over your life -- everybody's got weaknesses. Nobody's perfect -- would be the greatest moral failure in your life? And what would be the greatest moral failure of America?

OBAMA: Well, in my own life I'd break it up in stages. I had a difficult youth. My father wasn't in the house. I've written about this. You know, there were times where I experimented with drugs. I drank in my teenage years. And what I traced this to is a certain selfishness on my part. I was so obsessed with me and, you know, the reasons that I might be dissatisfied that I couldn't focus on other people. And I think the process for me of growing up was to recognize that it's not about me. It's about --

That's the reference for "At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."
The referenced discussion does not say "high school". So the article should be corrected to "Obama expressed regret for his drug use." That would be accurate. He does not say when he used drugs in that discussion. And even if extrapolating to teenage years (the drinking reference), that includes college. He was in college in Los Angeles from 1979 to 1981. He was born August 4, 1961. So he turned 20 on August 4, 1981.
See also: Dreams from My Father. The Wikipedia article says: "Upon finishing high school, Obama moved to Los Angeles, where he enrolled at Occidental College, where he describes living a "party" lifestyle of drug and alcohol use." References are found there. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:08, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Here are the references for that sentence in Dreams from My Father:

"Obama's revelations were not an issue during his Senate campaign two years ago. But now his open narrative of early, bad choices, including drug use starting in high school and ending in college, as well as his tortured search for racial identity, are sure to receive new scrutiny."
Mr. Obama had written in his first book, "Dreams From My Father" (1995), before entering politics, that he had used marijuana and cocaine ("maybe a little blow"). He said he had not tried heroin because he did not like the pusher who was trying to sell it to him. In an interview here on Monday conducted by David Remnick, editor of The New Yorker, at a meeting of the American Society of Magazine Editors, Mr. Obama said he was not making light of the subject. "It was reflective of the struggles and confusion of a teenage boy, he said. "Teenage boys are frequently confused."
Obama went by the name Barry and got on the wrong track as an adolescent. He shunned school, spent much time playing basketball and turned to drinking and smoking marijuana, even experimenting with cocaine. Obama described this period of his life in his 1995 memoir, Dreams From My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance. “I guess you’d have to say I wasn’t a politician when I wrote the book,” Obama told The New Yorker. Now that the transgressions are public information, he makes the best of the disclosure. “I wanted to show how and why some kids, maybe especially young black men, flirt with danger and self-destruction,” he said. ... Obama says he was still goofing off for the first two years of college, which he spent at Occidental in Los Angeles. He continued to play basketball, which friends say he is still quite good at, and was involved in other organized activities. He also spent “a lot of time having fun.” He changed course junior year when he transferred to Columbia.

--Timeshifter (talk) 02:43, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I did some searching in the biography Barack Obama: The Story, by David Maraniss, which was published on June 19, 2012. The Google Book URL for it:
Here is "marijuana" in the index:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&q=marijuana+293-94+428
A search for "obama lay off marijuana" pulls up the relevant page (page 428):
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&q=obama+lay+off+marijuana
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wnna9CLtblAC&pg=PT690&dq=obama+lay+off+marijuana
In one scene in the memoir, he quoted himself telling Sadik upon arriving in New York that he had spent the previous summer "brooding over a misspent youth." It was "time to make amends," he said. Now he was determined to get his act together and be of some use to society. He would read more deeply, eat more healthily, start running more frequently to keep in shape, and lay off marijuana, if not quit smoking. Sadik responded by calling Obama a bore. In reality the transition was not so sudden and dramatic. He had started changing earlier, and he was never that much of a deadbeat in the first place.
Obama was in college in Los Angeles from 1979 to 1981. He was born August 4, 1961. So he turned 20 on August 4, 1981. So he smoked in his teenage years in high school and in college in Los Angeles, and theoretically stopped, or laid off, or whatever, when he moved to New York in 1981 to go to Columbia College. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:55, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a very ugly and hard to read thread because of all the boxes and weird indenting, so I'm not sure if the issue of WP:DUE has really been addressed. As a teenager and college student of his generation it's not notable at all that Obama smoked cannabis. What might be considered notable is that as President he is discussing it. Whatever goes in the article needs to take that perspective. There must be no risk that it's anything of the form "Shock! Horror! The President smoked pot." HiLo48 (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, it's a talk page, lighten up about the format. My only purpose in this whole thread was to show that he used cannabis through some college too, and not just high school, as the article says currently. People asked for better references, and I found them. I found another:
Dreams from My Father. Published first in 1995.
http://books.google.com/books?id=HRCHJp-V0QUC
"stopped getting high"
http://books.google.com/books?id=HRCHJp-V0QUC&q=stopped+getting+high
Obama himself says he stopped getting high while at Columbia College. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm quite light about the format thanks. Light headed from trying to follow the thread. It's a mess. HiLo48 (talk) 12:15, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You'll be fine in a few hours. ;)
From page 120 of Dreams from My Father: "I stopped getting high. I ran three miles a day and fasted on Sundays". --Timeshifter (talk) 12:47, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's try to focus a bit here. The current sentence in the article says: "At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use."[4]. The only drug reference I could find in the source used for that statement was this: "Obama acknowledged his drug and alcohol use as a teenager when asked about his personal failure." So the sentence needs to either be changed from "high-school" to "teenage" or removed completely. I'd be inclined to go for the second choice since I see this information as bearing little relevance specially noting that his use of drugs is already mentioned in the article in the previous sentences. Regards. Gaba (talk) 14:25, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I do not see the word "regret" in that source. I see a matter of priorities. I go for your second choice of removing the sentence altogether. It is redundant in a way since a previous sentence (as you pointed out) in the Wikipedia article says: "Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his teenage years to 'push questions of who I was out of my mind'."
The 2007 source article for that sentence actually has 2007 points of view of Obama in it also:
But when an adult asked about his time as a student, Obama spoke bluntly. "I will confess to you that I was kind of a goof-off in high school as my mom reminded me," said Obama, who grew up in Hawaii. "You know, I made some bad decisions that I've actually written about. You know, got into drinking. I experimented with drugs. There was a whole stretch of time that I didn't really apply myself a lot. It wasn't until I got out of high school and went to college that I started realizing, 'Man, I wasted a lot of time.' "
That's time choices more than regrets. The 2008 Civil Forum reference could be used as another reference for that previous sentence. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:13, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Dreams from my Father is a primary source and we should be using secondary sources for the article. The writers of good secondary sources supposedly would have the ability to read Obama's autobiography and provide a reasonable interpretation. TFD (talk) 16:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we need to also use secondary sources to balance the spin and gloss Obama, as a politician, puts on his past drug use. Spin which I know most cannabis users in this thread find amusing. Currently we have this in the article:

Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his teenage years to "push questions of who I was out of my mind". Obama was also a member of the "choom gang", a self-named group of friends that spent time together and occasionally smoked marijuana. At the 2008 Civil Forum on the Presidency, Obama expressed regret for his high-school drug use.

First and third sentences are primarily sourced to Obama. The second sentence is sourced to multiple informants in the biography by David Maraniss entitled “Barack Obama: The Story”. I also refer you to Dazed and Confused, a great, funny movie concerning the 1970s and cannabis use in high school, the same time period Obama was in high school.

I suggest getting rid of the last sentence, and changing the first sentence to say "Obama has written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine in high school and college." Keep the second sentence basically as is. Use a third sentence for spin quotes such as "Man, I wasted a lot of time" and "push questions of who I was out of my mind". --Timeshifter (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How about this:
  • Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his youth to "push questions of who I was out of my mind".
Plus the second sentence and we throw out the third. It's vague enough to not have to worry about high-school vs/and/or college whilst encompassing both periods making it clear that those events took place long ago. Tell me what you think. Cheers. Gaba (talk) 18:57, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am going to bow out of this discussion for the most part. I made my point about the article only acknowledging Obama's high school use, and not acknowledging his college use of marijuana, etc.. And I found the references for his college use. So I leave it up to other editors how to spin the Wikipedia article. I point out that Obama can't run for President again, and so there is little need for a big, sneaky partisan cat fight on that spin. :)
I also point out that Obama's latest remark about "buzzfeed" sort of points out the silliness of his past politically motivated spin on the issue. That buzzfeed remark has gotten a lot of coverage in the media. I suggest leaving out election spin altogether here, and putting it here instead: Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 and Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2012. How about this here:
Obama has also written and talked about using alcohol, marijuana, and cocaine during his youth. Obama was also a member of the "choom gang", a self-named group of friends that spent time together and occasionally smoked marijuana.
I don't think anything more is really needed. We don't have to speculate whether he ever smoked marijuana later in his life. That would be WP:OR. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:26, 6 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But he didn't inhale? Looks good to me. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:54, 7 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gaba removed the third sentence. See diff. That is fine by me. --Timeshifter (talk) 20:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added reference details per WP:BOOKLINKS.

obama "madman"

[1]

Wikipedia is neutral, removing this because someone pointed out his flaws is retarded. RocketLauncher2 (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

David Bromwich

Is it really POV-pushing to mention David Bromwich's conclusion that, while Obama is not insane, he is power-crazed? Bromwich furnishes us with a watertight psychoanalytical basis for his deduction, yet the latter is being denied an airing by those who perhaps support their Democratic president's evisceration of the Fourth Amendment, his hoovering up of data on my and the rest of the world's e-mail and telephone calls, if you can forgive me for expressing myself so. Just curious. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Based on what I read at David Bromwich I would answer: Yes, really. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:42, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Regards. Gaba (talk) 17:16, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A remote psychoanalytical evaluation by a professor of English? Yeah, that sounds completely watertight.
And back in his actual area of expertise, surely Bromwich understands the semantic difference between
"Obama has a harder time than any sane politician I have ever heard..."
and
"Obama has a harder time than any other sane politician I have ever heard..."
Fat&Happy (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Look: a quality psychoanalytical premise... cogent, tightly-argued prose... and let us not forget this:

Obama sees himself as the coolest head, the most reasonable listener, the practical man in a world of theorists and fanatics, but none of these traits qualifies one person to render alone a decision that twelve could only with difficulty make in good conscience. There is a point, after all, where messianic fervour and the love of executive power may converge. In commandeering the drone assassinations in Pakistan, Obama has taken on himself to judge without legal process and to kill with impunity persons he thinks ought to die. This fact we learned only recently and are still digesting.

I must now submit, but it is not because I believe I am in the wrong, nor because I lack a steadfast belief that Bromwich's article is as hilarious as it is devastatingly accurate regarding the power-crazed, authoritarian personality that currently resides in your White House. As someone famous once said, the United States is not North Korea, you are permitted to criticise the Dear Leader. LudicrousTripe (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like a non-starter to me. If we're looking for color on his early life, best to factually relate some actual events and not somebody with no connection or relevance venting in the present day. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:11, 13 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Syrian Civil War

My suggestion is to open a new section in foreign policy with the following text: "Our militaries are constantly sharing information. We have seen evidence of the use of chemical weapons inside Syria," Obama said. "Those chemical weapons inside of Syria also threaten our security over the long term as well as [that of] our allies and friends and neighbours." ( ref: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22562372 ) The U.S. is to give more than $300 million in additional “life-saving humanitarian assistance” to Syrians caught up in the country’s civil war, Barack Obama has announced, taking the total amount given since the conflict began to nearly $815 million. The United States supports and appreciates the countries hosting the 1.6 million refugees who have fled the brutal conflict in Syria, and commends host-nation efforts to provide protection, assistance, and hospitality to all those fleeing violence. (ref. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/18/19018208-obama-announces-extra-300-million-in-aid-for-syrians-refugees?lite ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.83.13.165 (talk) 15:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not a notable part of Obama's life. Try Presidency of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:32, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with you. Furthermore I see lots of similarities with the Iraq war, from Iraq and weapons of mass destruction: "Bush stated that he "fully understood that the intelligence was wrong, and [he was] just as disappointed as everybody else" when U.S. troops failed to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Intelligence shortly before the 2003 invasion of Iraq was heavily used as support arguments in favor of military intervention, with the October 2002 C.I.A. report on Iraqi WMDs considered to be the most reliable one available at that time."" And the George W. Bush article is full of the word weapon. So don't afraid to use it here. Though I can accept that it doesn't look like too nice from a Nobel Peace Prize winner, that it is his 4th war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.95 (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is as yet no indication, and proportionately little coverage, of this as a major event in Obama's life. Any argument to the contrary is based on speculation, prediction, and personal opinion, none of which satisfy the sourcing requirements for the project. It appears that you are looking for a place to document your personal take on the situation, and there are many places where that is appropriate, just not an encyclopedia article. - 23:18, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
I would say that every war is a major/historical event. So the support of this civilian war should be in the article. Google currently gives roughly 78 million hits for barack obama+syrian civil war. Thus I wouldn't say that there is a little coverage on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.168.95 (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While its true that wars are major events that does not nesessarly mean that it played a major role in Obama's life.--174.93.171.179 (talk) 03:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But his dog's type is a major role in Obama's life? Currently in the article: "The Obamas have a Portuguese Water Dog named Bo, a gift from Senator Ted Kennedy." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.129.91 (talk) 09:06, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a biography article. You need to go to Presidency of Barack Obama — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.128.246.133 (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His dog is not important to his presidency, but it is important personally. Hence, it gets a mention in his biography article. The personal importance of Syria remains to be seen; we haven't actually done very much at this time. We might in the future, but we can discuss that when it happens. As for your suggested addition, even in the presidency article, it would need work. That quote, for example, feels dropped in just so that you can have a quote. It does not flow or connect well with the rest of your suggested edit. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 10:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Usage of teleprompter

From the current article: "Obama is frequently referred to as an exceptional orator". If this is true then why is the frequent and ongoing usage of teleprompter? Without even a mention of this I would think that you are whitewashing the article. He is so an exceptional orator that he is unable to deliver a speech to 6th graders: (ref.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVpOH4MGPBg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.82.75.22 (talk) 22:27, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. Your POV is showing.
2. A YouTube video is not a reliable source. HiLo48 (talk) 22:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For a kinda sad exercise you might want to search for the word "teleprompter" in the archives of this talk page. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:24, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, it's still coming up recently. [5] Arkon (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No. No it is not. At least not by anyone other than ideologues and POV pushers that don't understand how absurd the finger pointing is. Every President since Truman has used a teleprompter. It's no different(other than giving you a better tool) than having notes at the podium. And it's a Hell of a lot better than writing on your hands. Dave Dial (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What's absurd is you responding with "No. No it is not." when you have a nice shiny link posted showing exactly that in my original comment. Your opinions on the talking heads and Sarah Palin have nothing to do with that. Arkon (talk) 23:57, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Teleprompter usage isn't extraordinary, that's the thing. It is only in the fringe wingnut portions of the media realm (i.e. non-reliable sources that made it out to be a bad thing. That's the point. The HuffPo link above is just a simple mention of a siation where he couyldn't use one, nothing more. Tarc (talk) 00:33, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Obama's oratory is often praised, though Yale's David Bromwich once opined that, "Madmen and power-maddened politicians easily fall into the illusion Freud described as 'the omnipotence of thoughts'. They imagine that their wishes, or words that embody wishes, become deeds by virtue of being spoken by themselves. Obama has a harder time than any sane politician I have ever heard in admitting that his words are only words. He told a teacher once that words were the most dangerous power in the world; he seems to have meant they were the most powerful things. But to speak words that carry a distinct meaning on certain subjects, and then not to back them by deeds, is weaker than saying nothing." See David Bromwich (2012). "Diary". London Review of Books. 34 (13): 42–43. Retrieved 13 June 2013.
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Barack_Obama&diff=prev&oldid=560997707

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