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I removed the following statement (originally posted by 62.252.224.12) due to POV:

The Amhara are known for their beauty, as exemplified by the supermodel Liya Kebede.

As for the example of Liya Kebede, that article is already categorized under Category:Ethiopian models, which is more properly NPOV. I've made an attempt at re-wording it in this article. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:42, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear wikipedians, the picture on the article page which represents the Amhara is old and very out-dated. Are there not more accurate and more current pictures which depict the Amhara people than this? Can you please get some newer, more current pictures please? -Kim

Ms Sarah Welch, Levine is alluding to the battle captives from other local Afro-Asiatic-speaking noble groups. The perception, capture, treatment and duties of these related peoples was completely different from that of the unrelated Shanqella. This is explained here. Soupforone (talk) 03:53, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Soupforone: Not quite. It is broader. The exact quote is self-explanatory. Have you checked the page 57 of Abir by the way? I see the Nilotic etc part in the other wikipedia article, but I don't see the support on page 57 of Abir. Do you have another source, or page number? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Levine indicates that most slaves were drawn from the Sudanic tribes (i.e., Nilotic). These groups are locally known as the Shanqella/barya. This is why "barya" is also the term for slave in Amharic [1]. Soupforone (talk) 05:05, 27 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Abel Gebremariam: please don't repeatedly remove the "refimprove-section" tag, as you did here, without adding sources that support everything in the first and second paragraph of this section. Alternatively please delete the unsourced paragraphs and sentences, then remove the tag. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:59, 2 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello moderators,

Social stratification is highlighted in the Amhara people page, but i noticed that the sources are not correct/false or at least questionable.

Source 35. Leads to a title but no article ^[1]

Source 37. Leads to a Cambridge site with no mention of Amhara or any other ethnic group ref>Teshale Tibebu (1995). The Making of Modern Ethiopia: 1896-1974. The Red Sea Press. pp. 67–70. ISBN 978-1-56902-001-2.</ref> whereas others such as the historian David Todd assert that this system can be unequivocally labelled as caste-based.^[2]

Source 38. Leads to a Cambridge site with an article that mentions Ham and negroid but no Amhara or any other ethnic group specifically ^[3]

Source 39. Leads to an article which mentions Qemant, Eritreans and Beta Israel but no mention of Amhara ^[4]

The topic in itself no longer applies to current Ethiopia since slavery is abolished in 1942 ^[5]

With so many questionable sources, i can't help but think that someone wants to put a negative light on this page. Mankind throughout history has practiced slavery and serfdom, why does it need to be highlighted on the Amhara page? Why with incorrect sources. It would otherwise only be fair if it's highlighted on every ethnic group and nations wikipedia pages, from medieval Europe to African states, the same way it's highlightend on the Amhara page(with incorrect sources)

I hereby request you to consider the removal of that section.

Thank you and have good day 86.89.46.70 (talk) 03:36, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The statistics bureau you mentioned doesnt necessarily mean millions were killed but they could of chose to identify with another ethnic group. Oromos were known to pose as Amhara and have now stopped due to the Oromia region being granted. Duqsene (talk) 01:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@86.89.46.70: Donald Levine's text is scholarly and well cited, and other sources in that section are WP:RS. The section stays. Please note that WP:COMPETENCE is required, or you should not be editing wikipedia. If you need help with finding sources, please contact WP:TEAHOUSE. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch: Have you seen the alleged sources provided above? Many of those sources lead to nothing or doesn't mention Amhara, don't you find that questionable? In what way do you question my WP:COMPETENCE? At least you can do is to check on those sources. I'm going to contact other administrators and users on this issue to look at those sources. Any other users who want to check on the sources feel free to do so.86.89.46.70 (talk) 14:09, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Jim1138:: Hello Jim, can i ask your assistance in this? There was a new section added on the Amhara people page, but many of those sources leads to nothing or doesn't mention Amhara, can you look in to this? Thank you 86.89.46.70 (talk) 14:22, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@86.89.46.70: I have checked them. These and Donald Levine do discuss Amhara and social stratification (slavery, castes) on the page numbers cited in the article. Older October 2016 versions of this article, quoted the source, then embedded quotes in the cite from the source for easier verifiability, but later editing by others (@Soupforone e.g.) reworded and removed the quotes. Is your concern with edits of @Soupforone?

You lecture, "i can't help but think that someone wants to put a negative light on this page. Mankind throughout history has practiced slavery and serfdom, why does it need to be highlighted on the Amhara page?" Wikipedia articles are not a public relations portal/blog to put positive or negative light. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and notable encyclopedic information from multiple reliable secondary and tertiary sources about the history, society etc of Amhara people belongs in this article. Please see WP:COMPREHENSIVE. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:36, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The ip indicates that the social stratification material in general is dubious (which you originally added, not me). He/she does not ask to spam more WP:REDFLAG claims, but on the contrary asks for its complete removal. Soupforone (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Soupforone: Donald Levine is not a dubious source, but one of the most respected, cited Ethiopian studies scholar. Nor are other sources dubious, they are scholarly. Since you edited the article here and added content citing support from multiple sources, I presume you are confident that your edits were sourced. Or, did you just makes changes to the wording and added text to the Social Stratification section in October without checking what the sources were stating? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:47, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I tried to neutralize the social stratification material (which you originally added) as best I could. However, given the ip's complaints above, that clearly was not enough. He/she wants the entire section removed, as he/she believes that "someone wants to put a negative light on this page". Therefore, per WP:BRD, please do not append any material until this stratification thing with the ip is sorted out. Soupforone (talk) 16:02, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Soupforone: You revised the section to "neutralize" the wording in October without checking what the sources are actually stating? NPOV is with respect to the sources, not with respect to your personal feelings/ opinions/ wisdom/ prejudices. Let me invite admin @Doug Weller: please guide us on content rules, in this other important Ethiopia-related article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I actually did verify Levine, but that's not really the main issue here. The ip is claiming that much of the material is WP:UNDUE and WP:REDFLAG (e.g. that Afars routinely enslaved Amhara), and that it was appended out of bad faith (i.e. WP:ATTACK). Perhaps Duqsene and EthiopianHabesha can provide clarification on this. Soupforone (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Soupforone: If you did verify the source, then you answered the IP's verifiability concerns. You misunderstand both WP:UNDUE and WP:REDFLAG. The lead sentence of WP:UNDUE states, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Different forms of social stratification among the Amhara people is a significant viewpoint and Donald Levine book published by University of Chicago Press is a prominent, high quality reliable source. On REDFLAG's requirement that the content cite multiple high quality sources, please note you have in past removed second/third sources claiming WP:CITEKILL. More importantly, the relevant section of this article already cites multiple high quality sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(ps) WP:ATTACK is for dedicated pages primarily disparaging a subject and are unsourced or poorly sourced, and such articles are subject to speedy-delete. It does not apply here. WP:ATTACK does not mean we suppress all slavery-related / women's abuse / discrimination / social stratification / etc sections in articles of wikipedia. Please see WP:COMPREHENSIVE. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:56, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's frankly not surprising that the ip should have trouble WP:VERifying some of the phrases given the WP:CITEKILL ("a good rule of thumb is that, except for certain controversial topics, one footnote after a sentence is almost always sufficient"). When the ip writes above that "with so many questionable sources, i can't help but think that someone wants to put a negative light on this page", he/she means that WP:BLP has likely been breached (you're right though about WP:ATTACK; it's apparently BLP that applies here-- "Editors must take particular care when adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States, to this policy, and to Wikipedia's three core content policies: Neutral point of view (NPOV) Verifiability (V) No original research (NOR)... This policy applies to... material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages".). Likewise, when the ip indicates that "I hereby request you to consider the removal of that section", he/she indeed means that the stratification stuff is WP:UNDUE. This seems fairly straightforward. Soupforone (talk) 03:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch and@Soupforone You said that the sources are reliable, including those mentioned above. That's why i asked @Jim1138: and i would encourage other admins and users to check on those links(sources). Let's start by breaking it down one by one, and i will wait for your reply source by source, and i hope the admins will look into this, source by source. The first one Abir, Mordechai (1968). Ethiopia: the era of the princes: the challenge of Islam and re-unification of the Christian Empire, 1769-1855 Praeger. p. 57. leads to a google books, with no acces to material to verify the source. ^[1] 86.89.46.70 (talk) 17:04, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@86.89.46.70: Go to a good library. Otherwise just WP:AGF for other editors, if you want others to assume good faith on your editing. Wikipedia requires verifiability, not solving your problems of "acces [sic] to material to verify the source". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:10, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch If i can't access the source then it's only right to bring others into the equation to verify it for us. I asked @Jim1138: because he patrols recent changes. If he and others can't access the source(s) provided by you, then surely it's not only my problem. I'm willing to check it source by source and i hope you and others will join in. Starting with one Abir, Mordechai (1968). Ethiopia: the era of the princes: the challenge of Islam and re-unification of the Christian Empire, 1769-1855 Praeger. p. 57.^[2] 86.89.46.70 (talk) 17:25, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ip, I verified the Herbert Lewis work, and you're right. Amhara aren't mentioned in it. Soupforone (talk) 03:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Slavery in Amhara society

@Soupforone: Why did you remove this section in October (I am bolding Amhara below to address some of the puzzling questions about verifiability above)...

According to Donald Levine – a professor of Sociology specializing in Ethiopian studies:[16]

Most Ethiopian societies have also distinguished two other status groups, slaves and caste groups. Slavery was widespread in Greater Ethiopia until the 1930s, and today ex-slaves, children of former slaves, and de facto slaves in some regions occupy social positions much like their predecessors'. (...) Between tribes, Borana made slaves of Konso, Afar made slaves of Amhara, Kefa made slaves of most of their neighboring tribesmen, and Amhara and Tigreans, while not supposed to enslave fellow Christians, had slaves from many non-Christian groups.

— Donald Levine, Greater Ethiopia: The Evolution of a Multiethnic Society[16]

I am surprised you also removed the shorter version, "According to Donald Levine, Amhara people at different periods of their history owned slaves from many groups, were enslaved by Afar people, and that "slavery was widespread in Greater Ethiopia until the 1930s, and today ex-slaves, children of former slaves, and de facto slaves in some regions occupy social positions much like their predecessors"". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This page is on Amhara specifically. As such, the only phrases above that are not WP:OFFTOPIC are the claims that Afars enslaved Amhara and that Amhara had non-Christian slaves. The latter is noted. However, the claim that Afars enslaved Amhara is WP:REDFLAG. The ip is correct on that one. Soupforone (talk) 03:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]