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Notable precedents in discussion
"Unborn"/"human" vs. "embryo"/"fetus" "Fetus" vs. "foetus" Pictures, 2, 3, 4, 5, Use of "Death"

Here's some sources that support a contrary view to the sources indicating a fetus dies. They take different stances on the details but make it clear that there are WP:RS that back up the claim that a fetus cannot be said to be alive, or to die. Here's one that goes pretty directly to my position, which is indeed somewhat philosophical: [1] T Kushner, Having a life versus being alive, J Med Ethics 1984;10:5-8 : "In an attempt to provide some clarification in the abortion issue it has recently been proposed that since 'brain death' is used to define the end of life, 'brain life' would be a logical demarcation for life's beginning. This paper argues in support of this position, not on empirical grounds, but because of what it reflects of what is valuable about the term 'life'. It is pointed out that 'life' is an ambiguous concept as it is used in English, obscuring the differences between being alive and having a life, a crucial distinction for bioethical questions." The brain birth/brain death parallel has been explored by a number of authors, and they have reached varying conclusions on it. [2] D G Jones, The problematic symmetry between brain birth and brain death, J Med Ethics 1998;24:237-242; [3]D G Jones, Brain birth and personal identity, J Med Ethics 1989;15:173-185. In somewhat more florid language, there's [4] Gareth B. Matthews, Life and Death as the Arrival and Departure of the Psyche, American Philosophical Quarterly, Vol. 16, No. 2, Apr., 1979, which points out that "When does life begin?" is one of the great philosophical questions. A neuroethical approach is taken in [5] Michael S. Gazzaniga, The Ethical Brain, Dana Press (April 29, 2005). In [6], N Pfeffer, What British women say matters to them about donating an aborted fetus to stem cell research: a focus group study, - Social Science & Medicine, 2008, comments on "the difficult issue of how and when an aborted fetus 'dies'" in the context of tissue donation. An interesting Oct 19, 1975 NY Times article [7] discusses a case in which a miscarriage led to a biologically, but not legally, live birth, and the ensuing debate led to the hospital canceling the bill for the care it provided for 48 hours to a legal non-entity. The life/death issue is complicated. JJL (talk) 03:46, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you are attempting to define person-hood, with its legal and moral implications it is interesting. The lead isn't doing that. If the lead say "his/her death", "their death" you'd be on topic. But the lead specifies "its", it is an IT. A biological growth that dies, like a tumor, not a legal person. You are repeatedly going off topic, yes we get it, you feel death implies person-hood. Not the case. Though I find this research impressive, its application is misplaced. - RoyBoy 07:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite...as I keep saying, the biological tissue is clearly composed of living cells and undergoes cellular death, but I don't believe that throughout the post-conception period there's clearly an organism that is capable of undergoing organismal death. The "it" appears to me to refer to an organism, not a clump of cells. I believe (in line with some of these refs.) that the quality of being a living entity--be it a human or other animal at issue here--is a fuzzy issue. JJL (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the clarification, if I missed it above sorry. So this isn't about "life" at all, it is about "organism". Could have saved us some time. Broadly defined by Wikipedia, organisms are an "assembly of molecules functioning as a more or less stable whole which exhibits the properties of life". I presume here we define "stable" to mean what would suit our side of the discussion; you would say it's rapidly developing so hardly stable, I'd say it is self contained and is developing normally, so it is stable. Moving on to "any living structure, such as a plant, animal, fungus or bacterium, capable of growth and reproduction". What I would speak to here, is that reproduction isn't about being fertile (if that was the case toddlers wouldn't be organisms), it speaks to something more fundamental, of stable cell division reproducing cells and leading to continued growth and development. With that said, are you able to acknowledge an embryo is an organism, or are you under the mistaken impression organs have to be formed?

Yes, I've been drawing this distinction from the beginning. Your comments go to the heart of where you and I disagree, I think. I see a slow transition toward the fertilized egg becoming an organism in and of itself without a well-defined point of change--a fuzzy, heap paradox sort of situation. The lack of stability is evident to me in the vast changes it undergoes, for just one point, and more generally "the properties of life" opens up a whole set of issues. Implying I'm 'mistaken' where we disagree ins't helpful, is it? JJL (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You would have my genuine sympathy if you hadn't said: "Do embryos adapt and evolve?" Now we have: "an organism in and of itself"... I've just rigorously spelled out for you an embryo, let alone fetus, easily meets the criteria for an organism. An embryo is "capable of growth and reproduction" -- stay specific -- how am I incorrect with reproduction if you consider a toddler an organism? - RoyBoy 00:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you wish to continue this, or would you be courteous enough to acknowledge we explored "organism" in 2006, because ... we did. - RoyBoy 15:28, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what you did in 2006. That consensus has been lost. New sources and new editors have been introduced. Wikipedia is not static and is meant to be improved. You are very enamored of that magic time, but you need to let it go. If in 2001 the consensus had been for 'viable', would you have never tried to introduce 'death'? JJL (talk) 17:51, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of courtesy noted. This is typical tendentious behaviour - a complete inability to admit any error, under any circumstances, no matter what the evidence says, even down to not admitting that the subject has been covered previously. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 18:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In 2001 I would have been naive enough to think death was an inappropriate, even pro-life definition of abortion. To answer your question directly to clarify, I never introduced death, I did become bold and coordinate a collaborative environment that selected it as the best option and an important (yet accurate) compromise. Something essential to genuine improvement to Wikipedia. By the way straw polls don't meet that criteria. - RoyBoy 00:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I just appreciated the irony of you extolling the ambiguity of life (which doesn't apply here), but are supporting "viable" which is ambiguous in it's own right. Indeed medical community embraces it, so? This means it isn't ambiguous? - RoyBoy 08:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a fundamental confusion of facts to think that viability is ill-defined. It's when the fetus can survive outside the womb. That's a yes-or-no question. What's ambiguous is the range of gestational ages and weights various authorities give for when it's likely that a fetus is viable. The moon has a weight, but I can't tell you exactly what it is because I can't directly weigh it. We can get pretty good estimates though. Viability has a crisp definition, but determining when it has occurred without actually removing the fetus and testing it is difficult, and varies case-by-case. JJL (talk) 14:35, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am muddled here, it's crisp "Marked by clarity, conciseness, and briskness", but then it varies, based on likelyhoods of various opinions / benchmarks and in the end we rely on estimates. That isn't crisp JJL. If we had a mechanism large enough, the moon is weighable, until then estimates will do. But we don't pretend those estimates are completely accurate, caveats and clarifications are added to clarify that. - RoyBoy 14:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Viability is well-defined. But it's like many things that are difficult to test for. Any one of us may have a small cancer growing in us right now. It either is or isn't, but unless it's big enough for an MRI or other test to find we won't know. In principle you could always remove the fetus from the womb and see what happens--impractical and unwise for obvious reasons, but it shows that survivability is well-defined. The fact that it's hard to predict by indirect factors such as gestational age and weight doesn't change that fact. Viability has a short, easily understood, one-line defn.: Ability of the fetus to survive outside the womb. Unlike 'death', it's simple and unambiguous. Do you not see the difference between something being well-defined and the difficulty of performing Nondestructive testing? JJL (talk) 15:05, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your sophomoric examples are unhelpful. As survivability varies from one fetus/mother to the next, from one environment to the next, it's well-defined but not verifiable. You almost seem to understand this at the end with "nondestructive testing", but somehow incapable of coming to the conclusion yourself. Frustrating and strange. - RoyBoy 15:28, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why would it matter if it's (practically) verifiable in a given case? It's well-defined. It's certainly verifiable--it just wouldn't be feasible to do so on a human. On an animal you could test viability in any case but removing the developing fetus from the gravida's womb. This is perfectly scientific. I think you want a test that could be used on a given woman prior to performing an abortion. But that that's currently difficult to do with certainty doesn't change the fact that removing the fetus would result in either survival or non-survival, so that viability could be ascertained. Viability is well-defined. I think you don't find the definition useful in making a determination of whether an abortion should be performed because we don't yet have a simple test for that. That's an entirely separate issue. I'm discussing a concept while you're looking for a test. And again, insults like 'sophomoric' aren't helpful--please stop. JJL (talk) 17:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is too easy and presumptuous to define viability in any "crisp" and precise way, it ends up failing very quickly because biology is unpredictable (the spectrum you mention). Viability is in-line with medical procedural consensus, but out of line with the larger reality. As an encyclopedia we handle larger reality first, especially in a lead. For myself, I'm not concerned with "determination of whether an abortion should be performed", that's a moral judgement that has no place in the lead -- and is up to those involved in that individual case faced with tough choices. Not acknowledging viable abortus is inaccurate/incomplete in the lead, if we attempt to do so, we end up with weasel words and bloat and some confusion. If I see further examples of poor rationale, I'll label them differently going forward. - RoyBoy 18:18, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Viability is crisply defined--the fetus either survives outside the womb or it doesn't. When you say "viable abortus" then I understand that you're arguing against the medical defn. of abortion, but to the extent that you're saying that the concept of viability, in isolation from abortion, is ill-defined, that simply isn't so. Please don't be defensive. I know you cherish the former consensus and have strong feelings favoring the use of 'death'. I suggest you re-commit yourself to the classic advice given to new users: "Your contributions can be edited mercilessly." We are improving the article and hence WP itself. You mustn't become too attached to your own words and your own POV. There is not only one, or even only one best, way to write the lede. JJL (talk) 18:33, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I "cherish" the previous consensus because, in the end, it was well done. Recent edits and arguments have rarely approached that level of collaborative insight.

Let us take for example "the fetus either survives outside the womb or it doesn't". Are you being intentionally obtuse here? No, it isn't that simple! When an abortion procedure occurs, and is done correctly, an potentially viable fetus becomes (or ensured to be) nonviable. Setting that obvious point aside, it is also a complex calculus of medical skill and technical resources available at the time.

Does a premature infant born from 21 to 28 weeks and dies in Afghanistan mean it was truly nonviable? Attached to my POV? You broke my irony meter, congrats! You're clearly part of the problem and not the solution. - RoyBoy 19:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, that question is answered in a well-sourced manner, and best discussed, at fetal viability. JJL (talk) 15:20, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is that a joke? Viable is in the lead of this article. Ohhhh, here is the punchline: "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks." Explain, in what dimension is that crisp and worthy of inclusion (especially by itself) in an encyclopedic lead? - RoyBoy 00:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It may occur earlier because it's a well-defined but hard-to-determine point. You're still conflating being viable with estimates of when it has likely occurred. It used to be that we couldn't determine gender before the fetus left the womb. It's still the case that we can't do that with viability. We can estimate when it's likely to have obtained but can only determine it via an experiment that, while it could be performed, would be inappropriate on humans. I don't see the issue you're having with this. JJL (talk) 00:52, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is its a hard-to-determine point, ergo it cannot be "well-defined" in reality. You can medically define it at 500g, but it's a guideline in the sand (regardless of it being the well reviewed consensus of experts) that has no actual teeth in reality... it does legally etc etc, but for a real pregnancy it being "well-defined" has no practical meaning on the spectrum of mother's health / medical technology available / doctor's competence. - RoyBoy 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that those numbers are meant as estimates of the median viability point--where 50% of fetuses would survive and 50% would not--but of course they're also round numbers. I agree that in any particular case near the 20 week or 500g mark it would be very unlikely that a physician could make a confident prediction, barring some medical problem that clearly indicates non-viability on other grounds. Do we agree that viability is well-defined in principle but hard to determine around the 20 week/500g point in practice? JJL (talk) 15:07, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, medically it is well-defined; but you're 50% clarification reiterates it isn't verifiable, something missed with most non-medical reliable sources (Britannica didn't miss it, so they used usually). Add to that viable has legal (depends on jurisdiction) / biological (abnormalities) variability that makes it a confusing and complex concept. Stating it is the medical definition we are using improves things (because this is not a medical article), but it has so much baggage it defies summary style. Death has far less. Some experienced editors have commented pro-life rely on the baggage (dual meaning?) and emotion of death to infer personhood (Guy and maybe Doc James), or that I've allowed myself to be fooled by them (Orangemarlin).

I agree that is the 'intent' for pro-lifers with "death", but Wiki-editors focus this and gloss over the notion viable is simply a poor choice for an encyclopedia; and that viable denotes pro-choice / ethical medical 'intent' for abortion. I do not care we "intend" to abort non-viable fetus', I care about what an encyclopedia should... accuracy and summary style. If we cannot in good faith verify every late-abortion was nonviable, then the definition is worthless. The weight of reliable sources would appear to indicate otherwise, but we need not replicate their mistake(s) or follow a consensus that would rather clinically define a topic that has two sides to it; viable doesn't present both sides. Medically that is not a concern, encyclopedic-ly I assert it is. Redefining what the abortion article is -- to increase our comfort level -- seems silly to me; but certainly preferable to pretending viable works without caveats. - RoyBoy 18:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree entirely that 'viable' is not adequately defined (or has too much baggage), or that is not easily understood. Claiming that the medical community is mistaken is a broad claim that should be sourced to sources that comment on this fact and should not be merely inferred by comparing other sources. It's one thing to say that sources conflict, but your claim is much bigger than that: Your claim is that the medical side is wrong. That's OR or at least synthesis until you have sources that criticize the medical defns. as mistaken, not just different. JJL (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't wrong, they define it as it should medically be done. That does not mean abortion actually conforms to how it "should medically be done". As we are an encyclopedia, we have a broader scope to define. If we fail to do so, then that is our "wrong" / fault. Their scope does not dictate ours, unless you want to contend otherwise as Orangemarlin did? - RoyBoy 00:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have a number of excellent sources that support that abortions (either spontaneous or induced) occur before fetal viability. Procedures or fetal demise outside this period is not an abortion per the CDC, WHO and medical texts.

• "An induced abortion is the medical or surgical termination of pregnancy before the time of fetal viability." AND "The interruption of pregnancy before viability at the request of the woman, but not for medical reasons, is usually termed elective or voluntary abortion." (Williams Obstetrics, 23e, Chp 9)

• "Abortion is the spontaneous or induced termination of pregnancy before fetal viability. Because popular use of the word abortion implies a deliberate pregnancy termination, some prefer the word miscarriage to refer to spontaneous fetal loss before viability" from . ISBN 9780071472579. {{cite book}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

• For "spontaneous" it is per Uptodate "Spontaneous abortion (SAb), also known as miscarriage, refers to a pregnancy that ends spontaneously before the fetus has reached a viable gestational age" PMID 11023804 Still looking into elective.

Our definition needs to reflect the references. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doc James, permit me to be straight and plain in reply - It doesn't matter how many sources you have or what your own subjective view of them is, call them "excellent" if you want. But I ask you do abortions not also take place after viability? This is simple, you can try "before viablity" if you want, it will rightly get shredded as factually inaccurate, and without consensus once you change it. How do I know? Because its already been tried.62.254.133.139 (talk) 17:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No abortion do not take place after viability. And this is true for both spontaneous and induced. Read the references.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can't substitute your own definition for that used by the sources. That it has been tried before is no argument against it now. That isn't how WP works. The best sources refer to viability. If we don't then our value as a reference is greatly reduced. If we're the only one using a term in a certain way then we're not doing what we should be doing. JJL (talk) 17:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The argument against it is not that it's been tried before, it is that it is factually inaccurate. Our value as a reference is in factual accuracy. 62.254.133.139 (talk) 17:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your mere assertion that they don't doesn't make it so. The lower limit of viablity is earlier than the legal limit up to which abortions may be performed in many jurisdictions (including the UK and many States in the US), so abortions are performed post-viablity. Editors attempting to make the article a description of some utopian fantasy should give it up already.62.254.133.139 (talk) 17:44, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide references so we can discuss them. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious: do you think that Williams Gynecology is wrong? NW (Talk) 18:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I get the impression that 62.154 and Doc James are talking past each other. @Doc, do you really intend to say that the end of a pregnancy that happens in between viability and birth is not an abortion, that it is an intervention which should not be done by reputable practioners, or something else? @62, have I caught your concern? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Yes after fetal viability it is known as "Induced fetal demise" or "Spontanous fetal demise" not an induced or spontaneous abortion. Ref [8] So with current medical practice the "abortion procedure" dose not result in the death of the fetus as the fetus is already dead due to "induced fetal demise" WRT legality in most areas of the world induced fetal demise is unethical and illegal except to save the life of the mother. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:35, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You've just confirmed abortion post-viabilty! Thanks. Abortions performed after induced fetal demise would also be after viability by your explanation. DMSBel (talk) 19:59, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why you see the quotes around "abortion procedure". We go by the ref provided.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:17, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not so fast, the ref. you provided says nothing about "induced fetal demise". DMSBel (talk) 20:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also this "abortion procedure" so called, what does it involve? The expulsion of the fetus from the uterus? DMSBel (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt it is unethical and illegal in many parts of the world, but putting quotes round it not does stop it from being an abortion. Unless you mean that before viability, in an abortion the procedure results in the death of the fetus, but after viability the "abortion procedure" is performed after induced fetal demise? So in Merriam/Webster they have it spot on then. DMSBel (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is not a matter of what I think, it's a case of viability ranges from an earlier time (23 weeks) than the upper legal limit on abortion in many places (UK 24 weeks, US 26 weeks), therefore the source is wrong if it states that abortions are not performed after the fetus is viable. Less than 1% of abortions in the UK are after 22 weeks (thats still nearly 2000 abortions a year, figures as of 2005, BBC News article [[9]])62.254.133.139 (talk) 19:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you believe that Williams Obstetrics is wrong, you should email the editors and talk to them about it. It's a gold standard in OB/GYN (per an Wikipedia administrator/licensed health care provider). You simply cannot say that a source is wrong because it contradicts a lesser quality source. (Yes, the BBC is a lesser quality source in this context.) NW (Talk) 19:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't citing the BBC as a comparable source, it's daft to pit the two against each other. What does Williams obstetrics say on fetal viability, at what range does it say viability starts, at how many weeks?62.254.133.139 (talk) 19:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Williams OB doesn't even attempt to wade into that, so far as I can tell. UpToDate suggests 22-25 weeks, but acknowledges that it is a jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction as well as a case-by-case matter. I don't think that matters though. Even if a woman attempts to terminate her pregnancy at, say, the 26th week, I don't believe that we can call that abortion without engaging in original research. NW (Talk) 20:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Fetal Viability : Williams OB doesn't even attempt to wade into that, so far as I can tell. - Some Gold Standard then!! DMSBel (talk) 21:05, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're engaging in so much original research here that if you write it all up we can award you a Ph.D. You're guilty of WP:IDONTLIKEIT and are not even attempting to fight sources with sources. If it's the "gold standard", then it doesn't matter if you personally disagree with it unless you are claiming so much expertise in the matter that you qualify as a superior source. JJL (talk) 21:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, that's quite funny, since your entire argument that the fetus is not alive is pure original research. I have asked at various times for one source that says the developing fetus is not alive (i.e. dead); the silence is deafening. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 15:23, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not if you look at Talk:Abortion#On_whether_the_fetus_is_alive. JJL (talk) 17:59, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Williams Obstetrics most certainly mentions fetal viability, at length: "[...] infants born at 22 to 25 weeks. Currently, depending on many factors, this gestational age range is considered the limit of viability." That is only the first of many mentions in the "Diseases and Injuries of the Fetus and Newborn" chapter. (Won't cite page numbers as mine is an older edition.) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 21:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, very helpful to have someone with a copy at hand. So 22 - 25 weeks is the lower end of viability? DMSBel (talk) 22:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Fvasconcellos. I'm using an online copy through AccessMedicine.com, which I haven't read in full. I had searched via their internal search feature, and "fetal viability" didn't come up in any of their books. Thanks for pointing that out. There's also a section in Chapter 36 titled "Mortality and Morbidity at the Lower and Upper Extremes of Prematurity," that begins "The tremendous advances in the perinatal and neonatal care of the preterm infant have been found predominantly in those infants delivered at 33 weeks. With survival of increasingly very immature infants in the 1990s, there has been uncertainty and controversy as to the lower limit of fetal maturation compatible with extrauterine survival. This has resulted in continual reassessment of the threshold of viability...It appears generally accepted that births before 26 weeks, especially those weighing less than 750 g, are at the current threshold of viability". NW (Talk) 23:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We also have "Abortus. A fetus or embryo removed or expelled from the uterus during the first half of gestation—20 weeks or less, or in the absence of accurate dating criteria, born weighing < 500 g." Further clarifying the position of the medical literature. Williams Obstetrics, 23e >Chapter 1. Overview of Obstetrics Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:33, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's already in the article :). NW (Talk) 20:57, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes exactly we have 8 high quality WP:MEDRS compliant sources that support the current version of viability. Enough said :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:02, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thats right, keep pumping that water out, your sinking fast here. Guess you don't want this to go to an AN/I either?DMSBel (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doc James, I'd give it up now, you have already told us that abortions are performed after induced fetal demise and that that only takes place after viability. DMSBel (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry we are going by what reliable sources say. I am not here to Wikilawyer. If you have reliable source you wish to present do so. Cheers. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should give it up before you mess it up more. DMSBel (talk) 21:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Unless he's told you that you may rely on his opinion as a WP:V WP:RS, it doesn't matter (what is your interpretation of) what he said. What matters is what the source said. I don't think he's claiming you should listen to him as a source. If his explanation doesn't elucidate matters for you, consult the actual source and engage it. JJL (talk) 21:37, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not my interpretation, just what Doc James said. Don't try to re-factor it, it will be spotted. You guys are a joke. Just give it up already. DMSBel (talk) 21:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how the insults and negativity help here. JJL (talk) 21:44, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, according to Doc James, after a fetus is viable its not called abortion, its an "abortion procedure". Abortion is only performed after the fetus is dead, brought about by induced fetal demise, an unethical practice that should not be confused with abortion proper, which starts while the fetus is alive. Did I get that right? DMSBel (talk) 21:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you guys need to check your Gold Standard OB/GYN reference - Williams Obstetrics I believe its called. DMSBel (talk) 22:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this how you got topic banned? You are not helping. Please stop. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 22:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No "this" is me trying to figure out how 2 + 2 = 5. DMSBel (talk) 22:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. That only works for large values of 2. humor ArtifexMayhem (talk) 22:18, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about 22 is less than 24? DMSBel (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please AN/I this for the Wikipedia Community to see, I am off to bed. DMSBel (talk) 22:41, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As long as the abortion article is going to be used as pro-abortion propaganda then you folks will probably want to re-write the late-term abortion article so that it also includes the same false information (that abortion of a viable fetus is not an abortion). Right now it includes this line, which disagrees with your campaign material: "Late-term abortions are more controversial than abortion in general because the fetus is more developed and sometimes viable." Any attempt to add this "only before viability" bullshit is an attempt to hide the controversy. 71.3.237.145 (talk) 23:19, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks will try to address that. Looks like the refs at "Late term abortion" need updating. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:24, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This ref uses the term "Late termination of pregnancy" Graham, RH (2008 Jan). "Understanding feticide: an analytic review". Social science & medicine (1982). 66 (2): 289–300. PMID 17920742. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doc James, you might find it wiser to avoid any appearance of WP:POINT DMSBel (talk) 13:23, 25 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Learned some new things, and it's good to see Doc James here. Indeed Wikilawyering sucks, but I'm reading this Wikipedia:MEDRS#Summarize_scientific_consensus, as MEDRS has been used frequently of late. It states: "Finally, make readers aware of any uncertainty or controversy. A well-referenced article will point to specific journal articles or specific theories proposed by specific researchers." While I'm sure several here would be confident in wording and referencing viability (with or without caveats in brackets), it is hard to think such important issues can be communicated clearly in a lead sentence without weighing it down. I believe Britannica makes the best attempt possible, but still relies on weasel "usually" wording to provide necessary ambiguity to a term that actually isn't clear. Sure, we commonly understand it as surviving outside the womb, but is that with or without ICU? I've stated above, a non-viable baby in Afghanistan could be viable in developed countries. - RoyBoy 08:32, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ability to survive does indeed depend on where you are. That's a matter that has already been settled at Fetal viability: "The limit of viability is the gestational age at which a prematurely born fetus/infant has a 50% chance of longterm survival outside its mother's womb. With the support of neonatal intensive care units, the limit of viability in the developed world has declined since 50 years ago, but has remained unchanged in the last 12 years." and "During the past several decades, neonatal care has improved with advances in medical science, and therefore the limit of viability has moved earlier." The statements are sourced at that page. To me this is sensible: Appendicitis is survivable, and shortsightedness is correctable, but probably not if you're alone on a deserted island. The statement is made under the assumption of modern medical care. Anyway, we don't need to address that issue here; if you think a different defn. of 'viable' would be better, that page would be a good place to raise an objection. Viable is the preferred term--if there is concern about its meaning then we have a page for it, just as we do for Death (which has its own similar issues--Brain death, etc.). JJL (talk) 14:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, death doesn't have similar issues, that's why it was chosen. Brain death - so you are under the incorrect impression organs have to exist for something to die / be considered an organism. Relying on a sub-page to define another article isn't correct. - RoyBoy 15:40, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The majority of editors on this page disagree with you about 'death' being the appropriate term. I never said anything about organs and don't know why you've started bringing that up. The point is that 'death' itself is used in different ways at different times, unlike 'viable' which has a strict and unambiguous yes-or-no meaning. Physicians and scientists prefer it for a reason, after all. JJL (talk) 18:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunately this isn't a democracy, or are you implying a simple majority denotes a new consensus? Cause that's wrong too, right Orangemarlin? The brain is an organ, so you brought it up. Actually the point is on this talk page watching someone recent fumble around what is life/death/person/organism isn't necessary for the article, it was covered in 2006. As to viable being strict, you're incorrect (which is okay) and being ideological (not okay, as its been shown viable abortions can occur). - RoyBoy 19:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We need to work toward a new consensus. You need to acknowledge that the old one is dead (no pun intended). It doesn't matter what was covered in 2006--no one is bound by that, and no one has certified that group of editors as being authorized to hold teh page hostage to their decisions. You need to let go. I can see your point of view w.r.t. viability in the context of abortion but not w.r.t. the concept itself. It's well-defined, as the sources found on the viability page support. JJL (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC) (edited--lost an important 'not' JJL (talk) 20:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC))[reply]

I'll take that as a yes to my consensus question, I know what I need to do. I like puns though... hmmmm. - RoyBoy 20:01, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Roy I strongly disagree with your statement, "watching someone recent fumble around what is life/death/person/organism isn't necessary for the article". IMO it is your group that attempted to fumble around with that issue, and as I have previously said, only fools rush in where angels fear to tread. It is this group who have wisely avoided that fool's errand by insisting that we must rely on our references to supply the definition rather than produce our own. If you can show me even one other Wikipedia article where editors changed the definition of anything to so drastically differ it from almost all of the references, I'd like to see it. Gandydancer (talk) 19:56, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Almost good point, but we didn't fumble (ie. confuse, obfuscate, move goal posts, merge / fail to clarify / outright deny) concepts being discussed as recent editors have. As such we were able to work together on a compromise that worked. Your question on Wikipedia precedent is curious, I doubt I would find an example, but as we are not a medical reference; you are presenting the weight of the sources (more accurately their editorial style) in a false light to begin with. Or is that not relevant to you? - RoyBoy 20:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@RoyBoy Keep in mind that I have never called your group a bunch of fumblers as you just called the present group. I have several times spoke of the previous group with respect. However, if you are going to indulge in labels, I only returned the label. This group deserves just as much respect as the previous group. As to your suggestion that medical definitions are a product of "editorial style", well now that's an unusual idea, isn't it? Gandydancer (talk) 21:06, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How is that false? Almost all use 'viable', almost none use 'death'. That's an extremely compelling argument on its own, and saying we are allowed to change things is a very weak one. JJL (talk) 20:21, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And once again, I can't imagine what the basis is for the belief that the accord reached in 2006 so was so perfect. It's all well and good to be pleased with your work but you've taken it to quite an extreme. You're not allowed to declare parts of a page closed to new editing--you don'wt WP:OWN it. JJL (talk) 20:24, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A word used in Encarta and a medical dictionary is extreme? Try again JJL, actually no, don't. You appear oblivious to what I am declaring, you don't form a consensus (new or otherwise) by a straw poll. Or does Wikipolicy only apply to me? - RoyBoy 20:34, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not following you--I described "an extremely compelling argument" and you're talking about whether or not a word is extreme. This is non sequiter. While a straw poll doesn't make consensus, having a majority against you should suggest that your previous consensus is in need of a serious reconsidering. JJL (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It would if you added something fundamentally new to the discussion, more votes is more eyes focused on a straw poll header under the impression a consensus of sources is the pertinent matter, the former is not extremely compelling. ;') My mistake on extreme, apologies. - RoyBoy 23:49, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Even if your version were to be undeniably accurate, there's more than one way to say anything. New editors might wish to make a stylistic change. You can't embargo all changes to (part of) an article. JJL (talk) 00:56, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I/we can if they are Boldly pushed through contrary to established consensus. I didn't stop your edits to the lead, I allowed you to learn from your own mistakes and made it plain it could result in actions being leveled against you. As it was clearly inappropriate, if you don't see it that way its a result of being new. You can't walk into a new controversial situation and expect to know what you need to out of the gate. - RoyBoy 00:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Gandydancer I'm also waiting for your reply to 71.3.237.145 above on 1.5% of abortion happening after 21 weeks; or should Wikipedia simply ignore this? - RoyBoy 20:34, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@RoyBoy I don't reply to a lot of posts. I have no idea which post you speak of. I have, however, post re that issue. Please read my posts and you will find the information you are looking for. Gandydancer (talk) 21:16, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No luck, is it in an archive? You actually almost convinced me viable was sufficiently accurate. But no response here leads me to believe its a grey area we have to choose to ignore to maintain verifiability and accuracy for "viable" by itself. - RoyBoy 23:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have posted regarding this issue and I will do so again. As you may know from reading this article, thousands of genetic mistakes commonly occur in the developing embryo. Many of these alterations are so severe that the embryo cannot survive and it is passed, often as a large clot. But some genetic mistakes actually are not so severe as to cause the immediate death of the embryo and it continues to grow into the fetal stage and would actually result in a live birth or perhaps a stillbirth. A paper has been offered wherein it was stated that a severely mentally handicapped fetus or one that would die soon after birth can be considered a non-viable fetus and I believe that anyone with any moral integrity at all would agree with that. And then there are other strange physical deformities that are difficult to look at for even seasoned hospital personal. I'm not sure how they handle this today but in my experience from years ago, we considered them a stillborn whether they were dead or not and no attempt was made to extend their life. That too is as it should be and if the deformities can be picked up before birth it is much better for all concerned rather than make the parents go through the heartbreak of losing a full term infant. And then there is a third class that are profoundly retarded but physically viable who can survive for years. I have a fair amount of experience in that area and I can tell you that these individuals have a life of endless suffering and if their condition can be discovered before birth it would be an act of kindness to abort them. Now I really do not know what percent of these fetuses that are aborted at an age over 21 wks have this condition or that condition, or how many of the mothers lives may be compromised if they were to carry the fetus to full term, but you don't either and until you have that information in hand I wish you'd just shut up about it. I apologize for saying "shut up", but I am just sick to death about this whole "viable" controversy. Gandydancer (talk) 01:50, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If "shut up" is the worse thing you've done here, then you have far more self control than most, certainly more than I. You may need to teach me sometime. The above is profound and is written in a way I've never seen before, so thank you, and it affirms my pro-choice position. Agreed, I was sick of it many many moons ago, but occasionally well intentioned lead editors are interested in going through it ... again, and again. The lack of information in hand, has no bearing on how inappropriate "viable" is for an encyclopedia. I'm not being insensitive, I'm saying viable in common medical / public parlance is understood to mean about 20 weeks. However, now we have an additional neurological/genetic defects caveat to communicate. I can, more than ever, appreciate why Britannica used "usually" in their definition!

Most importantly, you are understandably frustrated, annoyed and maybe even disappointed at my presumptuousness. Ironically that's why I've (eventually) taken the position I have on viable. It is bio-ethically presumptuous to think abortions are always conducted on-time and with clear ethics (ie. sex-selection). I am disappointed with otherwise thoughtful and sophisticated people presuming to know the totality of a subject with such complex circumstances, motivations and outcomes being acted upon a rapidly changing entity (embryo / fetus). Medical references can (and should) take the position they have, as they are obligated to communicate best practice(s) and use clinical terms in a medical setting. Wikipedia's obligation is accuracy in a summary style, and if possible ensure "other perspectives are fairly represented". I sincerely hope you understand, and I apologize for possibly upsetting you. - RoyBoy 00:49, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to concern yourself that you may have upset me. I'm sick to death about a lot of things, the current political situation for one, but it doesn't follow that I'm upset. I may find it absolutely absurd that anyone could go on and on insisting that the word viable is too technical a term to use when my 12 and 15 year old grandchildren understand exactly what it means, but that does not mean that it upsets me. It just makes me think that the idea is stupid. It has been suggested that we use "usually before the fetus is viable" which I feel would be an excellent compromise, but you and others continue to argue that viable is too technical and vague. Gandydancer (talk) 16:12, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because it is not verifiable. Kids understanding viable means survival outside the womb, doesn't mean they understand it can vary from country to country based on interventions available. A non-viable fetus in the 3rd world can be viable elsewhere, depending on specialist doctors and equipment on hand. This variability is the reality of biology. Do you disagree? Doctors let alone kids can't exactly tell us which 50% of fetus' are viable at week 20, but kids much younger than 12 truly understand death. Add to that fetus' that are technically viable but wouldn't survive long after birth because of various abnormalities. Not exactly a clear and pedestrian concept. Or am I missing something? - RoyBoy 20:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well that's some progress I guess since it is now agreed that a 12 year old understands what viable means. Now I guess that we'll need to be certain that they know what "usually" means and I feel certain they do. Would you agree? Gandydancer (talk) 20:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, it isn't progress. Kids like adults think they understand viable -- but they don't -- yes the concept is easy to understand, as JJL points out again below, but the reality isn't clear at all. How do I put this more directly, going ahead with an abortion procedure does not make a fetus defacto non-viable. You have read my reference that says there is no standard procedure before 28 weeks to determine viability. This means from ~19 weeks til ~27 weeks there is a grey zone for modern medicine. Non-modern skews that timeframe. - RoyBoy 03:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Serious question: I know most newspapers strive write for a certain reading ability audience (e.g., an 8th grade reading level). Is there a WP policy or guideline for what age/reading level we are targeting? Viability is verifiable. You could do it on monkeys: Remove the fetus and see what happens. It's just that with humans there's a practical problem--not a scientific one. You keep mentioning the problem of viability varying by country but as per the sources found at Fetal viability the concept is well-defined: Survivability assuming modern medical care, not just what's available in country. That's a standard defn. as I understand it--if you can't get modern treatment for anything then you may die unnecessarily of it. We draw this distinction in this very article by mentioning that abortion is safe when performed properly but that that isn't always how it's done. Kids understand that some cancers can be treated but that if it isn't done then you'll die. That doesn't change their treatability. Sure, physicians can't tell us which 50% will survive--any more than they can tell us which smokers get lung cancer. A 12 year old knows smoking is dangerous and knows a 90 year old who smokes constantly. The notion of LD50 and its variants is standard in biology. It isn't at all different in this case that it is in any other medical case. The term is well-defined which is why it's used in a technical context. JJL (talk) 01:35, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good question, there is no target age just a goal of general readability, which I imagine is grade 11 or 12; but specifically for the lead of an article its preferable to keep it straightforward. JJL I stress its not verifiable on a case-by-case basis, unique to each pregnancy because of the many variables involved (health of mother for example). As to treatability, deciding to have an abortion does not automatically change a late-term fetus into being nonviable. Or does it? - RoyBoy 03:28, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate issues here. Viability is a yes-or-no issue in principle and in any given case. However, in a specific medical procedure a physician must go by guidelines because it's impractical to determine viability with current technology. This isn't really different in this regard from other medical procedures--you might end up performing an appendectomy because all signs point to it being a case of severe appendicitis only to find out once inside that the true problem is something else. Someone who is given 6 months to live statistically beats the odds. I think you're focusing on clinical guidelines for estimating when viability is likely to have been obtained. Is it really different from all the other protocols physicians use? If you observe A, B, and C, then do D? JJL (talk) 04:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In principle, I concur, but reality is less well defined. Physicians ... are you inferring all abortions are performed by ethical doctors in a clinical setting? As they aren't your starting point is not sufficiently inclusive, at least for a generalist encyclopedia. - RoyBoy 22:06, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do we make distinctions like this for other surgeries? I grant that's it's a much more common occurrence in the case of abortion than most cases, but I wouldn't want to define any surgery by what unqualified and/or unethical practitioners do. JJL (talk) 03:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, I really got to give you credit here man... you are sticking with it, that's better form than Gandydancer. Surgery... also implies a skilled (competent) third party is involved in the procedure. This also is not always the case with self-induced abortions happening; this is also unique to abortion (and dentistry I guess). To address your larger point, that we should not define what is a common -- safe -- practice by the exceptions. It does appear foolhardy, but if the goal is the same for all abortions (regardless of viability), we as a generalist encyclopedia are encouraged (I say required) style wise to choose the lowest common (accurate) denominator for the lead. I've been reassured in a number of ways and angles (from repeated change attempts) we got the right compromise. Indeed not perfect, however I can live with my discomfort with death to acknowledge abortion isn't a purely surgical / medical topic. Abortion intertwines larger questions of ethical bounds for doctors, practitioners, women and society. "Viable" isn't true to this complexity. - RoyBoy 00:38, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

1.5% is still 15,000-20,000 in the US and 600,000 worldwide per year. NYyankees51 (talk) 21:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked RoyBoy to provide even one instance of a Wikipedia article in which the definition was so different from the references and he responded, "Your question on Wikipedia precedent is curious, I doubt I would find an example, but as we are not a medical reference; you are presenting the weight of the sources (more accurately their editorial style) in a false light to begin with". Well, I've taken a few IQ tests and it seems that I am, at least according to the tests, extremely intelligent. Bur for the life of me, I cannot figure out his reply. Can anyone out there help me out? Gandydancer (talk) 23:27, 26 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The argument that we're not a medical reference is being taken as license to reinvent the meaning of words. That's unreasonable. JJL (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

NW has added 14 more references for the definition that are not medical sources. If that is actually his concern, that should take care of it. If not, he will continue with his complaints.Gandydancer (talk)

Kudos to NW to be certain. Their adoption of medical terminology certainly buttresses your position regarding RS & WEIGHT, but the origin of my medical source objection is Wikipedia:Style#Technical_language, and that "usually" should be used to encompass exceptions. Something I find unacceptable and unnecessary given we have "death" available. - RoyBoy 15:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reinvent the meaning of words? Funny coming from someone who has tried to narrowly define/interpret life, organism and death in ways to be consistent with a previously held position. - RoyBoy 23:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And you can't sort out that a uterine growth (ie. embryo) is life? - RoyBoy 23:42, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think RobBoy is right here. This whole discussion, in its present round, is putting heads in a spin. Variations between cultures have been cited with regard to supposed advocacy resulting from the use of "death" in the lede first sentence. But that's actually beside the point as its funeral customs that vary, views on an afterlife or cessation of existence that vary, views on intelligent design versus evolution that vary. Conception/Fertilization is the fusion of gametes to produce a new organism

First International Symposium on Abortion statement:

"The changes occuring between implantation, a six week embryo, a six month fetus, a one week old child, or a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation. There is no point in time between the union of the sperm and egg , or at least the blastocyst stage, and the birth of the infant, at which point we could say that this was not a human life".

The onus is on JJL to refute the scientific consensus of the last 50 years that has continually re-affirmed this. DMSBel (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What's the source for this quotation? I'd like to see it in context. JJL (talk) 15:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another quote from your site:

Q. What about a woman who is pregnant due to rape or incest?

A. This is not a reason for terminating a pregnancy. Rape or incest is never the fault of the child; the guilty party, not the innocent party must be punished. The violence of abortion parallels the violence of rape/incest, in fact it exceeds it! A child is a child regardless of the circumstances of conception. If the rape/incest victim is unable or unwilling to care for the child, there are numerous childless couples who would pay for the pregnancy and then adopt the child, if it is unwanted. Many agencies cater to this need. Gandydancer (talk) 13:53, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did they say that at the International symposium on abortion?DMSBel (talk) 15:54, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please tell me more about this symposium. When did it occur, who was in attendance, etc. Gandydancer (talk) 16:16, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try and find out for you more detail.DMSBel (talk) 17:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was held in Washington BC, in 1967. Attendees ranged across fields including genetics, obstetrics, gynecology (about 20% catholic minority). Sorry it will take me a little longer to find actual names, assuming I can find it on the internet. DMSBel (talk) 19:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all. I believe that the admin noticeboard is probably the wrong place to get outside input on the matter. Accordingly, I have left a message on the Dispute resolution noticeboard. All editors here are invited to take a look at the post there and comment if they see fit. NW (Talk) 13:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Getting some measure of help would be good. At this point, esp. as the IP SPA accounts continue to be blocked, I'm comfortable saying that those favoring 'viable' sufficiently outnumber those favoring 'death' that the 'viable' form of the lede is what we should be going with as we continue the discussion. JJL (talk) 13:40, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't want them to resolve the dispute. I wanted to understand if Wikipedia is now a democracy, JJL here again maintains it is. I thought JJL was misinformed; if shown otherwise I will change Wikipedia policy to suit. Careful what you wish for. - RoyBoy 03:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To date, wp:NOT#DEMOCRACY has not been disposed of. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's my understanding. Apparently "consensus can change" means you can push ahead with selective enforcement of policy, contrary to policy! Love it. - RoyBoy 23:54, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bearing in mind that when the matter was first brought up new editors were repeatedly informed that the 2006 consensus was perfect and could not be changed, it's amusing to see you raising this defense when on the other side. JJL (talk) 04:25, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

LOLz... so immature and impatient. @NW: I seriously question your admin credentials being on side with JJL, you are suppose to check (slow down) inexperienced people wading into topics out of their depth; in your defense you're too involved to have perspective. @both of you: You didn't check the previous consensus in any serious way, you go ahead and change the consensus because you didn't like it. So yes, we repeatedly tell you there is little new you are bringing to the table apart from being unfamiliar with consensus and how Wikipedia actually works. Expected for JJL, not for others.

@JJL: Compromise is rarely perfect, I presume you are aware compromise was key from my posts above? "other side"? Are you under the impression we need to convince you or your ilk (kind) of anything at this point. Fortunately my amusement is more informed than yours. The lead may remain changed, but it'll be from a process much better than a quick straw poll after a "I JJL (therefore everyone) can't figure out if the fetus is alive/personhood begins/organism or whatever the next word is that lets me continue to pretend I'm exploring an issue I already made up my mind on" ... fiasco. You remember that, it was awful for lots of people at talk:abortion -- lets say -- who been here more than a year. *British heckling on* Shame! SHAME! *British heckling off* - RoyBoy 00:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you are unable to have discussions on this Talk page without disparaging and attacking other editors, I suggest you take a break. Otherwise, it's going to be you that finds out about certain Wikipedia policies that you are ignoring. Dave Dial (talk) 02:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disparaging and attacking, where's that? Or are you skipping over multiple missteps in policy, procedure, courtesy, philosophy, biology, evolution, reality, English language etc etc. A break is good advice, you should take a break from being blind to context, lest you think my comments vindictive -- rather than observational. If I'd written only the first paragraph you'd have a point I suppose. So DD2K, what would you call editors that push an edit through in weeks that contravenes a consensus that's existed for years and has been defended many times and in many ways? So long as they are civil (in your eyes) that's what counts? Have something to contribute or find another article you can positively effect, because it appears Abortion won't be your cup of tea presently. - RoyBoy 07:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's amazing to me how attached many of the older editors here are to their consensus. You're reacting like people are trying to steal your pension fund. Remember WP:MERCILESS? The old consensus may have been the best agreement the group of you were able to get but it wasn't the best possible. You have to be willing to relax your grip and let the article be edited. Courtesy is your argument? I certainly think you (plural) could stand to shine that light on yourselves. Reality? Apparently you know the WP:TRUTH better than I do? This is a weak defense. The sources are aligned against your position--overwhelmingly so. That's the reality. JJL (talk) 16:12, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've added "medically defined" to the viable version of the lead, I'm not warring to maintain the "one and only true version". Medical texts do not burden themselves with the legal variability of viability, and they define viable according to their best practice. We should avoid technical language when possible, as we aren't defining a best surgical practice, but rather a topic that encompasses hospitals and war torn jungles. - RoyBoy 02:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the spirit of the compromise suggested by DMSBel under The Lede opening sentences in light of DRN suggestions and agree that it is currently too wordy.

Rationale:

vocabulary.com

Abortion is a surgical procedure that ends a pregnancy. In the United States, the public debate over a women's right to have an abortion is a complex and heated political issue.

The words abort and abortion can also apply to non-pregnancy related topics. If you are in the middle of a jewel-heist and the alarm on the vault is tripped, you and your partners in crime might opt to abort the plan and run while you can, debating whether the plan's abortion was a good decision or not later.

I would suggest we need a more general definition of the term "abortion", which would lead into the qualifying sentences currently present. Here are some examples:

3. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation. 4. An aborted organism. 5. Something malformed or incompletely developed; a monstrosity. -American Heritage dictionary

3. arrest of development (as of a part or process) resulting in imperfection; also : a result of such arrest -Merriam-Websters

(biology) Arrest of development of any organ, so that it remains an imperfect formation or is absorbed. Any fruit or produce that does not come to maturity, or anything which is interrupted in its progress before it is matured or perfect. The act of aborting a project, a mission, etc, before it is completed. (art) Something ugly, an artistic atrocity. -Wiktionary

▸ noun: failure of a plan abort -- (the act of terminating a project or procedure before it is completed; ``I wasted a year of my life working on an abort"; "he sent a short message requesting an abort due to extreme winds in the area ) -Wordnet

3. the failure of a mission or project, -Collins

References to "aborting the mission" are so prevalent in popular culture that I do not feel I need to provide a reference. I would guess that most people here have heard the term in video games, movies, or TV shows dealing with war, spy missions, under cover police work, etc. NASA documents describing the biomedical experiments conducted during the Apollo missions employ the term "abortion" when referring to the failure of plants to produce pollen. NASA Technical Memorandum 58217[10]

All of these definitions were obtained by spending 5 minutes at alphaDictionary online[11], which searches over 1,060 dictionaries allowing us to obtain a consensus of usage. This includes entries from older sources, such as Webster's 1913[12] and Britannica 1911[13]I consider these sources to be current as long as there may be people alive for whom these sources would have been their primary reference on matters of English usage. The search produced results from concise dictionaries, not from the multi volume versions that are produced once or twice a century. My copy of Webster's Third New International does not have any entries that I would consider significantly different from those shown.

To add depth to this consensus, I also consulted Online Etymology[14]

abortive

late 14c., from L. abortivus "pertaining to miscarriage; causing abortion," from abort-, pp. stem of aboriri "disappear, miscarry," from ab- "amiss" (see ab-) + oriri "appear, be born, arise" (see orchestra); the compound word used in L. for deaths, miscarriages, sunsets, etc. The Latin verb for "to produce an abortion" was abigo, lit. "to drive away." Not originally used to imply forced or deliberate miscarriage; from 14c.-18c. stillborn children or domestic animals were said to be abortive. Also see abortion. Related: Abortiveness

We can see that the general sense of the term is arrested development, or a failure of a process to come to its natural or intended fruition. The emphasis is on process, not on the fruit of that process.

I suggest we take our cue from the biological definitions, which, unlike medical texts, are strictly technical. Medical texts, especially those directed to the public, tend to intersperse lay terms with technical terms, thus giving undue weight to terms such as "baby", "mother", "death", etc.

I would suggest that the first sentence of the current article be replaced with:

"The term "abortion" generally applies to any process which terminates prematurely. Most frequently, it applies to biological processes, especially pregnancy."

You can work in the "death of the fetus" thingy wherever you wish - just not in the definition. I will take up the death v viability dispute in a separate comment section.Ermadog (talk) 23:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an interesting observation. (I would've added that computer programs frequently abort.) My first thought was that it was more of a Wiktionary approach, but then I looked around and found, e.g., Destruction. I do think handling both spontaneous and induced abortion at the same page is a (small) part of the difficulty we're having. Even if making Abortion a broad defn. of the term in its whole or a disambiguation page was done we'd still have the issue of induced abortion eventually. I'm not sure what I think; I couldn't find uses of "abortion" on WP in a cursory search that weren't either in this context or in music. JJL (talk) 00:53, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation. 4. An aborted organism. 5. Something malformed or incompletely developed; a monstrosity. -American Heritage dictionary

Since my proposed change would simply replace the current lede sentence, I don't see this as an attempt to avoid the induced v. spontaneous question. The very next sentences deal with these issues. I'm unclear as to the relevance of a search on "abortion" in WP. I'm addressing current usage of the word as described by a consensus of dictionaries. This consensus shows that abortion is any arrested development or cessation of a process. As applied to human pregnancy, the term "abortion" would then be properly applied to the pregnancy itself as the process under arrested development. the term "pregnancy" necessarily includes the conceptus, as you cannot be pregnant without a conceptus being present. (You can be pregnant without a fetus being present).

I don't see the difficulties as stemming from spontaneous v induced abortion. I see the problem as two groups having two completely different conversations about the same topic. The strict anti-abortion crowd wishes to make the rights of the fetus paramount; while, the strict pro choice crowd deny that the conceptus has any rights at all in the matter (at least in the earlier stages). We're just talking past each other. The insistence of the anti crowd upon the inclusion of "death of the fetus" is an attempt to keep the discussion focused on what they consider to be the "victim" of abortion. This is why I proposed a broad definition of the term "abortion" as the introductory sentence. The various ancillary issues follow, and are properly discussed in the body of article. Ermadog (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On the one hand I see your point and don't actually object to going that way, though I think it'd be a big conversation. But I think that, realistically, many of the other issues would be principally discussed in linked articles, not further down in the main article, and most searches would land on them initially, losing this context where it is needed. The point of searching for non-medical uses of abortion was that I wondered if the term was being used/discussed in its other senses here--such articles would need to be linked to and context for them provided. This is an interesting approach and I'm open-minded. If the main discussion of biological abortion remains here then it could be helpful. If it ends up mostly being a glorified dab page to aborting computer programs, aborting major projects, etc., then I don't think it'd help much, though it might still be sensible for WP to have such a page, perhaps.JJL (talk) 03:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, I wasn't proposing a detailed discussion of the various permutations of the term "abortion" outside its designation of a process of interrupted pregnancy. That would properly belong in a disambiguation page. I was simply proposing a more general definition to replace a currently contentious one. As you yourself noted, "One suggestion [22] from DRN is that we consider avoiding using either term in the lede sentence." My definition shows how the more general meaning applies to human pregnancy.Ermadog (talk) 05:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

3. arrest of development (as of a part or process) resulting in imperfection; also : a result of such arrest -Merriam-Websters

As you know, this is an encyclopedia article, and the lede is an introduction not a definition per se, so we don't need to be so concise as some of these definitions. Most people coming to the page will know it is either about spontaneous or induced abortion or both. Abortion originally refered to both intentional abortion and miscarriage, (so if I understand you correctly) it would be rather strange to begin the article with the third definition below, especially when there is nothing in the article specifically about organs or body parts. If there is consensus for separation of articles on abortion and miscarriage, I think abortion could possibly then be merged into Feticide with a redirect. But any separation would be too controversial on this article without an RFC in advance. If a return to the earlier consensus version with some minor changes does not solve the issue, more clarification early on in the lede should help.

1.a) Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus. b) Any of various procedures resulting in the termination of a pregnancy. Also called induced abortion.

2. See miscarriage.

3. Cessation of normal growth, especially of an organ or other body part, prior to full development or maturation.DMSBel (talk) 01:23, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why you would imagine I would want to introduce the article with "the third definition below", when what I actually proposed was "The term "abortion" generally applies to any process which terminates prematurely. Most frequently, it applies to biological processes, especially pregnancy."

Here, the term "process" is a broad category which includes pregnancy as one of the sub categories. Thus, my discussion is broader than the concise definitions to which you refer. When a military operative proposes to abort a mission, he is not generally proposing to terminate a pregnancy. When a computer operating system proposes to abort a process, it is not generally proposing to terminate a pregnancy. Do you really believe that the broad public has not heard of this type of usage?

As for merging "Abortion" with "Feticide", "Abortion" is the general category; "Feticide" is the subcategory. Furthermore, "fetus" is only one subcategory of "conceptus". The feticide page should be merged with the abortion page, if any merging at all is to occur, especially since the feticide page focuses on the narrower aspect of law.Ermadog (talk) 02:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But your rationale begins by skipping over the first two definitions (above), to reach a conclusion that, arguing on the grounds of "what definitions are there?" is impossible. It's a bit like math in that you can arrive at an answer, but that does not make the answer you have arrived at right. Something seems to have gone awry and I think its because you began by not considering the two main senses of abortion - ie. spontaneous and induced. A wikionary definition can disambiguate a variety of senses more easily so perhaps these other senses (abort mission) (abort program) could be introduced into the the wikionary definition. 62.254.133.139 (talk) 13:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I "skipped over" nothing. I derived a general sense of the term "abortion" by surveying current usage and looking for a common thread. You do know what "general" means in this context? I thought I had spelled it out when I mentioned categories and subcategories. Process is a general category which includes pregnancy. The fact is that pregnancy can be thought of as a process transpiring within a woman's body and ultimately producing a baby, or it can be thought of as the production of a baby, leaving out the woman. I think most people reading the Wikipedia will be aware that pregnancy necessarily entails the production of a conceptus as a byproduct. Since it is the characterization of this byproduct that is the point of contention, one solution is to leave it out of the description.Ermadog (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps something with: cessation of embryonic or fetal maturation and the ending of nascent life. The "thingy" as the editor refered to it about "death" really seems to be unavoidable. And there is little support for its removal entirely. But we should go back to the consensus version and then discuss possible alterations. DMSBel (talk) 01:44, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nowhere did I suggest that the issue of fetal death should be avoided. It simply doesn't belong in a general definition of the term "abortion".Ermadog (talk) 02:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thanks for that it seems that there is growing support for keeping the matter of fetal death in the lede, and less support now for "before viability". I agree with JJL in that it would be necessary to address fetal death in the article also.DMSBel (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that at all. I mostly see you talking to yourself here. The suggestion from DRN was to compromise by omitting or keeping both terms. I don't think anyone prefers that we do either of those things, but it seemed worthwhile to discuss the possibility in the spirit of compromise. Your comments have made clear that compromise isn't what you want--you want to have it your way despite being in the minority of opinion here. JJL (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment For those new to the discussion, there is in fact majority support for the removal of 'death' from the lede and for having it discussed, if it is, later in the article; and, the 2006 consensus featuring it is no longer in play and the current wording in the protected version of the page has the best support--all the more so if one excludes the comments of SPA IPs and the repeatedly blocked and banned. The best available sources do not use 'death' and overwhelmingly use 'viable'. JJL (talk) 03:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are two things to note here, one is a failed straw poll that had a narrative change in the middle, this rendered it incapable of assessment. Even if it could be used to find consensus (which by Wikipedia definition of consensus it can't), one involved editors tallying and interpretation of the poll is not neutral. Secondly the issue of death in the definition is completely separate from it in the lede. And there is no way to absolutely remove it from the lede, without violating the current consensus, and ending up basing the article on subjective editor preferences. WP:ILIKEIT, WP:IDONTLIKEIT Its use in the article continues to meet WP:VERIFIABILITY DMSBel (talk) 14:01, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The change occurred immediately after I posted it. I was the only one who had voted at that point. After the reorganization of votes by RoyBoy he added his comment and I modified mine. No one else was affected by any changes. This is hardly the "middle". But as this seems to be very bothersome to you, feel free to address the issue with RoyBoy or an admin if you feel he was intentionally trying to disrupt the discussion or interfere with the poll. The word 'death' has been removed from the lede. You may not call it consensus, but that's what the majority of editors has settled on, based on the best sources around. Continuing to make misstatements doesn't change things and isn't fruitful. JJL (talk) 15:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL I have to say your preference for precision in communication is great. When I said "middle" I was imprecise, what I meant was after it was started. I have no issue with RoyBoy's change. But as I said in advance of the poll it would not declare any new consensus. You need to go to the policy discussion pages JJL if you'd like to make a proposal that wikipedia content should be based on a simple majority. DMSBel (talk) 18:02, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And this is why I say below that I am unable to come to a conclusion as to exactly what the poll problem is and why I have felt it is just sour grapes. Now you change the subject and say well I said it wouldn't make a new consensus anyway. Please make a statement that is precise which states your reasons that the poll was not properly done. Certainly one would think that we could conclude at least this part of the disagreement rather than drag it out into eternity. One is supposedly expected to have good faith, however I tend to guess that you would have quite a different opinion if the poll had turned out to be in your favor. Gandydancer (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Wikipedia is not a democracy for starters. Then the meat is the preponderance of sources use viable, they are medical sources. It provides no compromise or acknowledgement of larger issues and the broader reality of abortion, which isn't always on-time, by a doctor, in a clinic. Does an abortion make a fetus defacto nonviable? - RoyBoy 00:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, I was proposing that the whole issue of the fate of the conceptus be dropped from the lead sentence, in favour of a more general definition of the term "abortion". I have read this current talk page, as well as several pages from the discussion archived in 2006. I truly hope consensus has actually been achieved. However, as previously noted, I will be adding my 2 cents to the death v. viability discussion in a separate comment section. Ermadog (talk) 05:09, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes its removal or keeping in the lede first sentence is being discussed. We have no way of determining if consensus for the current version was ever achieved. The straw poll could not determine it ipso facto even if there had not been a narrative change in the middle of it, both in the formulation of the poll and in the article. Thats why the only way out of the current problem (a page protected non-consensus version of the article) is a restoration of the earlier consensus version, and further discussion, on the position of "death" or "fetal death" in the lede.DMSBel (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, yes, I forgot. "Consensus" in Wikipedia, achieved by the first people to write an article is written in stone. Silly me.Ermadog (talk) 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Such comments are unhelpful and risk re-polarising this when other editors are attempting to bring sides to an understanding of each others position. Nobody is saying the earlier version cannot be discussed or changed. But neither has any editor a right to demand change. DMSBel (talk) 00:44, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

At first I thought this comment was directed to me. Then I remembered: I never demanded change. Neither did any other editor. Also, you're not talking to me anymore.Ermadog (talk) 03:23, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No I think you'll find that it was you who said you saw "no point in answering my questions. Have a nice day", I'll certainly hold open the option of reading your posts and replying to them. Best:-)DMSBel (talk) 17:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed: Abortion is not just a medical term. That is why the lede should not simply be a repeat of a medical definition that is couched in medical jargon (words that are not always readily known to non-medical people). For instance, "loss" (meaning death) and "destruction" (meaning death or killing) are jargon used by medical professionals, but there are more clear and effective words to use outside of a clinical setting. For instance, a doctor might refer to a newborn as a "baby" when consulting with the child's mother, but would call him a neonate when discussing the medical situation with other professionals. Likewise a doctor might answer a woman asking about how long the elective late-term abortion of her fetus will take: "it will take a few days to extract all of the tissue", whereas his answer to a woman whose wanted fetus has died in utero might be "it will take a few days to deliver your baby". The WP article should not use jargon without explaining what it means or when non-jargon words can be used to more concisely. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How is "loss" jargon? If I say "I lost my business" anyone with a grasp of English will know I mean my business failed or was taken away for some reason. Friend of the Facts (talk) 19:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One reason "loss" is not appropriate in the article is because "loss" conveys an incomplete meaning and does not apply to some abortions. A "loss" is typically understood to be something unpleasant or undesirable. "Loss" would apply to many spontaneous abortions and some induced abortions, but would not apply to most induced abortions. "Destruction" also conveys an incomplete meaning and does not apply to some abortions. "Destruction" would apply to induced abortions that dismember or crush the fetus, but would not apply to many spontaneous abortions (and possibly to some induced abortions) where the fetus remains bodily intact. Both "loss" (unintended or unwanted death) and "destruction" (intentional killing or annihilation) are specific types of death. Since abortion can be intentional or spontaneous, the general term "death" is the most succinct and always accurate word to use because it covers what must happen to the fetus as part of every abortion, and does not suggest anything but the cessation of life. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 19:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what hospitals that you worked in that used some of the bizarre terms that you suggest, but I've been around the hospital block more than a few times and I never heard medical professionals speak in the manner "your" docs and nurses do. Just for starters, "loss" - that's a word for condolence cards not medical professionals. Destruction is medical jargon? you can't be serious. Where are you getting this stuff from? Gandydancer (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gandydancer, give the IP a opportunity, ask for sources by all means. At least as I read his comments he is saying both "loss" and "destruction" are specific types of death. I agree with the IP in regard to loss of meaning through unneccessary abstraction. And I'd like to hear him out if he has anything else to say, so please be give him the chance to make his point. :-)DMSBel (talk) 20:56, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If "death" is the best way to describe abortion how come the other references we looked at earlier rarely used that word to define abortion? The fact is that the majority of sources don't use "death" to define abortion. Why should Wikipedia use a word other references almost never use to define abortion? There's no good reason. Friend of the Facts (talk) 21:07, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The following dictionaries mention in the basic primary definition the death/destruction of the fetus or that the fetus must not be born alive:

• Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary (Amazon.com's best selling medical dictionary and the dictionary NIH provides online at MedLinePlus)
• Merriam-Webster Legal Dictionary
• Merriam-Webster Dictionary (Amazon.com's best selling dictionary and the default dictionary for the prestigious Chicago Manual of Style)
• American Heritage® Medical Dictionary
• American Heritage Science Dictionary
• American Heritage Dictionary
• Webster's New World Collegiate Dictionary (not related to Meriam-Webster, "any deliberate procedure that removes, or induces the expulsion of, a living or dead embryo or fetus")
• MacMillan Dictionary
• Collins COBUILD English learner’s dictionary

71.3.232.238 (talk) 21:50, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Importantly, 'not being born alive' doesn't imply death if you don't believe the fetus was alive beforehand. Also, is the '''<big></big>''' really necessary? Having bigger sources doesn't mean having more or better ones. JJL (talk) 14:21, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The History of abortion law debate shows that the status of the conceptus has never been in debate. The ancient Greeks were well aware that the conceptus was alive. The key questions revolved around what came to be known as hominization or ensoulment, that is to say, at what point does the conceptus become a human being. In the West, the Catholic Church eventually settled on quickening as the event signalling that ensoulment had occurred. The debate changed in the late 18th century, when some medical doctors began to advocate for a ban on abortion, claiming scientific knowledge of "when life begins". Since then, the debate has suffered from a lack of clear definitions.

The conceptus is most definitely alive, in the sense that it is composed of living tissue. It is also human, in that it is the product of a human organism. In a very general sense, it can be said that the conceptus is human life. But by these criteria, my big toe is also "human life". My big toe also exhibits a capacity for independent life whenever it cramps up. Better yet, my gut displays a routine capacity for independent life, in the form of homeostasis. The fetus doesn't begin to develop homeostasis until week 34, at which time it begins to regulate its own breathing.

Modern science can tell us a great deal about neonatal development (see Neonatal perception); but, what it can't tell us is when does a conceptus become a human being. The anti choice advocates routinely rely on pronouncements from embryology to claim the contrary. They claim that embryology does indeed tell us that conception or fertilization is "the beginning of a new human life".

But these are weasel words. There is no clear declaration that "a human life" equates, in the scientific literature, to "a human being". I have challenged dozens of anti choice advocates over the years to produce a scientific definition, drawn from any recognized science reference text, for the term "human being". I have searched the internet for one. I don't believe there is one. There is also no clear indication that the term "the beginning of a human life" necessarily implies that the status of human being has already been achieved. On the contrary, some embryologists refer to the conceptus as "a primordium of a human being" See Moore at http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html). Most embryology texts clearly indicate that fertilization is merely the beginning of a developmental process.

There is also no clear definition of the terms "human being" and "person" in law. Neither of these terms existed when the common law definition of homicide was formulated in England, in the Leges Henrici Primi of 1115 CE, which was the basis for the formulation of the Born alive rule. (See Murder in English law). These are the precedents which still prevail in common law countries at the federal level. The Canadian parliament has twice refused to give the fetus legal status as person. Abortion has never been treated as homicide in Britain.

While a number of states in the US have succeeded in declaring the fetus to be a human being for the purposes of the Unborn Victims of Violence Acts and similar legislation, none has succeeded in declaring the fetus to be a person from the moment of conception. Here is what one judge declared on the matter, "Judge Schreier said that although doctors must use the term 'human being,' it can be used in a "biological sense" and not an "ideological" one" -Planned Parenthood v, Rounds Civ. 05-4077-KES, August 20, 2009. Attempts to treat the fetus as a person in so-called "fetal abuse" cases have also consistently failed. Courts will prosecute: but, few convictions are secured.

To understand how the term "human being" is understood by the general public, it is usefull to use a multidictionary such as alphaDictionary, which searches over 1060 dictionaries to provide us with a consensus of common usage. We find that the first definition usually equates "human being", with H. Sapien which is not a definition, but a scientific classification. A being must be defined before it can be classified. When we search on Homo Sapien, we typically find "man", "modern human", "mankind", etc. When we search on these terms, we find "human being". We are thereby faced with a logical fallacy known as "circular reasoning". To break out of this circle, we look at the 2nd definition, which is typically "person".

"Person" is usually defined in philosophical terms, for example:

3, self-conscious being, as distinct from an animal or a thing; a moral agent; a human being; a man, woman, or child. Consider what person stands for; which, i think, is a thinking, intelligent being, that has reason and reflection. (locke)

Consciousness arises in the newborn when its natural occurring sedatives are oxidized by the first few breaths taken outside the womb. See, "The importance of 'awareness for understanding fetal pain", David Mellor, www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16269314

The term "death" in association with the destruction of the conceptus carries an unspoken assertion that human life is being destroyed. (Argument by assertion, especially unspoken assertion, is a logical fallacy.) As long as no clear distinction is being made between "human life" and "human being" is made, this also constitutes a logical fallacy of equivocation.

Ultimately, the question of what kind of life exists in the human uterus is a philosophical one, not answerable by science. This is why abortion is a matter of conscience. Freedom of conscience is protected in democracies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ermadog (talk • contribs) 00:41, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I could not get past the part where you said your big toe was a human and independent life (when you get cramp in it). I love reading posts but I don't keep reading if they get ridiculous. You should have saved that revelation for the end, as it is you lost me before you got going. Do you draw eyes and a mouth on your big toe? When you get cramp in it does your brain receive this information as discomfort? Therefore it is part of you and cannot be a conceptual metaphor for a mother and fetus. Your are taking the most generic definition of abortion and trying to use it to encompass everything that is described by the term abortion, when the topic here is not so wide as that. [User:DMSBel|DMSBel]] (talk) 00:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since you are no longer reading my posts, I see no point in responding to your questions. Have a nice day.Ermadog (talk) 02:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Get over yourself, Ermadog. Agree with DMSBel.-- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Resistance is futile. DSMBel is the Borg King. Ermadog (talk) 07:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ermadog, you were arguing from the sublime to the ridiculous, and peppering your post with rhetoric like "anti-choice". Basically you do not seem to have caught the notion of what the previous section was about, which is probably why you had to start a new one. Basically definitions in most dictionary move from the more specific to the more generic, the most generic definitions cover such a wide range of things, that they are little help to us here. There is certainly a fallacy in any argument that because the generic definition states abortion is "cessation of growth..." we must therefore be talking about the same thing in reference to a fetus as in reference to something else. Another reason an organ cannot be a conceptual metaphor for a fetus is that an unborn baby may have a different blood group from its mother. Blood in your toe is the same blood group as that in the rest of your body. What would happen if you needed a blood transfusion and were given the wrong type? Hemolytic reaction![[15]] Therefore there is a maternal/fetal distinction, in other words we are refering to a mother and her unborn baby. Make sense? User:DMSBel 62.254.133.139 (talk) 07:24, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Metaphor, from MacMillan as retrieved by alphaDictionary: "a word or phrase that means one thing and is used for referring to another thing in order to emphasize their similar qualities". I listed the similarities between my big toe and a generic fetus. Those similarities exist in the real world, and not merely in my imagination. My metaphor is apt in the current discussion; because, the "pro-death" camp keep emphasizing that the fetus is alive in a most general sense of the term and that it is human. My big toe is also alive and human. Therefore, it makes sense to me that the big toe is an apt metaphor for the fetus in this sense. If you'd read the rest of my post, you'd see that I then went on to an even more apt metaphor: the human gut. The human gut is alive, is human, and has independent existence - homeostasis. It also has its own primitive brain. See, "Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine Volume 77 November 1984, Editorial: Muscle innervation of the gut structure and pathology" jrsocmed00217-0007.pdf The degree to which the fetus has any homeostasis is debatable. It is entirely dependent on the metabolism of the host mother in the earliest stages. It does not even begin to regulate its own breathing until week 34, which is the earliest stage at which the the fetal brain shows signs of coherent brain waves. See "Fetal Pain A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16118385 As for "arguing from the specific to the generic", Wikipedia is not a dictionary.Ermadog (talk) 21:00, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MacMillan Dictionary - abortion: a medical operation in which a developing baby is removed from a woman’s body so that it is not born alive. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 21:06, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Funny how it says 'not born alive' without referring to death--as though the question of whether or not it was alive, and hence could die, was at the least a complicated matter, and so they decided to state it as a negative instead. JJL (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What are the similiarities between your big toe and this?:[[16]] Except that it has toes too!DMSBel (talk) 21:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see, I listed the similarities twice now. Maybe third time's the charm. The fetus is composed of living tissue. The living tissue is human. My big toes is composed of living tissue. My big toe is human (It's not a duck's foot.) You are still ignoring the fact that the human gut is an even more apt comparison, possessing, as it does, both independent life, homeostasis, and a primitive brain.Ermadog (talk) 22:30, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is quite humorous to read that a lede that was painstakingly formulated

after lengthy and intense dicussions among dozens of editors and that considered

every single argument now being made and that has withstood the test of time is a "dead parrot".

71.3.232.238 (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2011 (UTC) (consolidated by - RoyBoy 23:35, 7 July 2011 (UTC))[reply]

It might be helpful if you were to format your comments as paragraphs. The old consensus has been reconsidered and found wanting. Comments like this don't advance the discussion in any way. You're simply lamenting the fact that WP is not set in stone. Even paper encyclopedias have new editions. JJL (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The spacing seems intentional, I partially consolidated it. - RoyBoy 23:35, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the lead sentence of this article continues to be the subject of edit-warring indicates very strongly that the prior consensus version that endured for many years should be restored until a new version achieves consensus. That's what WP:BRD is all about. Sadly, BRD seems to apply at all articles except this one (unless enforcing BRD is occasionally to someone's POV advantage).Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:31, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was waiting for a 3rd party to do that, guess I'd be waiting a while. - RoyBoy 00:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In its earlier compromise/consensus version some readers may have had to make a presupposition accomodation (linguistic term) of a kind when they reached the phrase "caused by or resulting in its death". Most people are willing to do that in non-controversial matters. For instance if you were reading a book and had not noticed it was raining and someone said to you "It stopped raining", you would not reply "But you haven't said that it was raining". In the book What is Meaning: Fundamentals of Formal Semantics, Paul Portner writes:

::Unless you want to dispute the idea that it was raining, the co-operative thing to do in such a situation is to act as if the presupposition that it was raining had been in the Common Ground, discreetly adding it and moving on. (page 187)

In the earlier lede the presupposition the embryo/fetus is alive is presupposed in the meaning of pregnancy and it is taken for granted that for any reader who still does not obtain that presupposition that they can make an accomodation when they reach the part of the sentence "caused by or resulting in its death".

I wonder if expecting readers to make this type of presuppositional accomodation is really so out of the question, although admittedly it is asking a bit more than for someone to act as if the proposition "It was raining" is common ground. It will not be an issue for many readers, and we do make these accomodations in ordinary communication. That there are fields of medicine such as Peri-natal Pediatrics[[17]], [[18]] indicates an acknowledgement of nascent human life within the medical profession and that it is held to be the case that there is no radical disjunction between before and after birth except in terms of environment (intra-uterine or extra-uterine). The existence of this branch of pediatrics confirms the view that birth is an event in life, not the beginning of it as this article in JAMA states [[19]]. To me this indicates that there is a fairly common presupposition or understanding within Medicine and particularly Pediatrics, that most readers are quite able to accomodate when reading the article, and that the earlier definition (with the term "death") was not non-standard, even though it could have been better referenced. Any objections to restoring it? DMSBel (talk) 21:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DMS, I am wondering, why do you think the U.S. Supreme Court said this:

We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate." Gandydancer (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am wondering why they said that too. But I live in the UK. Seems to have been pretty well established in this discussion, then again its been going on for five years, I guess the US Supreme Court couldn't spend five years on it! DMSBel (talk) 22:23, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Objections to restoring what, exactly? ArtifexMayhem (talk) 22:37, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Says in my post. Hang on I'll find the exact version. DMSBel (talk) 22:40, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This version of the first sentence (as of 8 June 2011):

• Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death.^[1]

[In simple words, abortion is termination of pregnancy either through some accidental case like a miscarriage or by choice, when a fetus or an embryo is medically terminated. It is the removal of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, which kills the unborn baby.] [Note: I am not sure if this is a direct quote from the book or a paraphased summary, I am trying to find that out for sure, please bear with me, it comports with actual explanation in the book that life begins at conception though). (Dutt T, Matthews MP (1998). Gynaecology for Lawyers. Routledge) DMSBel (talk) 23:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The book from which that quote is taken, has been reviewed in medico-legal journals, and received the following comments:

"It is undoubtedly excellent as a work of reference and the contents list itself gives any non-medic a thorough grounding in the area to be covered under the general title of gynaecology. The content is well researched and informative. It is also easy to read." -- Medico-Legal Journal, Vol 67, 1999

"This is worth its weight in gold to any medneg practitioner experienced or otherwise... Highly recommended." -- Medical Litigation, June 1999

I guess that is why it was used as a source in the article. DMSBel (talk) 23:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These comments would be more helpful if we knew who made them. Was it endorsement by the editorial board? A book review by a single reviewer (which would not generally be a peer-reviewed item)? An ad? Some journals publish "my favorite text on..." opinion pieces. In any event, to say "I guess that is why it was used as a source in the article" sounds to me rather like citing Wikipedia as a source for Wikipedia. Surely the fact that a book by and for lawyers says "kills the unborn baby" isn't as compellinga s references by and for physicians... including the fact that the term 'baby' is plainly misused here. JJL (talk) 04:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But there again you show you have commented before knowing what you are talking about. Why would you think a book called Gynaecology for Lawyers was written solely by Lawyers? I am puzzled. It's part of a respected medico-legal practitioner series (Routledge-Cavendish). As it is it happens to be written by two authors one a Consultant Gynaecologist. Its currently just titled Gynaecology. It more than meets the basic criteria for a reliable source. Not sure what you mean by "endorsed by an editorial board"? Articles in JAMA don't seem to be, or need to be, to meet WP:RS.

The series editor Walter F Scott[[20]], is a General Practitioner with the following qualifications:

• Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery
• Bachelor of Law (Hons)
• Diploma of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists
• Member of the Royal College of General Practitioners

Are you suggesting this fails WP:RS in some way? If so you are ridiculously setting the bar so high, no possible source could meet it even if it was from the most respected university on earth. Abortion is a Medico-Legal subject, of course not solely - this source is better equipped to deal with that aspect than any other currently in use in the article. The Medico-Legal series the source is from is unique and unparalled. That said, it would not be correct to use it as the only source. It certainly seems to rank very high though from the medico-legal perspective. DMSBel (talk) 13:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was suggesting that you hadn't given me enough information to form a conclusion ion its reliability because you don't know how to cite scientific journals and don't seem to grasp the different types of articles that can appear within them. Why is this source unique? JJL (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But I do give you enough information, I just have, if you had read my last post and followed the links you'd know the answer to your question, but I said it was a unique and unparalled series. So you seem to be not reading my posts. Anyway if you want the answer to your question its in my last post. DMSBel (talk) 14:04, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to begin a discussion about the very semantics of language--as though that notion was somehow uniquely relevant to this page--is a particularly extreme attempt to return the debate to the beginning by forcing a discussion of the philosophy of language. We can't re-invent the English language here. This is a stalling tactic. JJL (talk) 04:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No its not a stalling tactic, but thats the second time you have refered to other editors wanting to discuss things as using "stalling tactics". If discussing this is a stalling tactic, what are editors who refuse to discuss that matter engaging in? Semantics is relevant, we are discussing a definition. Though I agree that the issue of definition is not solely to do with semantics. But it's a neglected area and there is no consensus for the current lede, if you want to find if there is consensus for your version, you need to run an RFC. Can you say why you have not done that? The article is of importance to several projects, there may need to be wider discussion. DMSBel (talk) 11:22, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've indicated previously on the Talk page, our language now matches that used in other, related articles here. JJL (talk) 13:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh? Which ones you been changing? (humor) DMSBel (talk) 14:24, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The 8 June 2011 version of the lede first sentence, was the the consensus/compromise. It's not set in stone. But it will take a lot more to change it than what has been so far presented. Would you like to freeze your own version in carbonite? The current "definition" does not even serve the purpose of a definition which is to differeniate between similiar terms. Currently it does not distinguish between live birth and abortion. Either formal (dictionary) or extended definition can be used, perhaps a formal one in the lede, and an extended one further in the article. Or we can simply use a descriptive explanation which draws from non-contradictory sources. If that is the route then an acknowledgement in one source of what another is silent on (or makes no emphatic refutation of) makes them supplementary to each other. I suggest we use Merriam/Webster and one other major medical dictionary. ThoughtsDMSBel (talk) 12:08, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're being very repetitive. The suggestion that we only use the one dictionary that agrees with your preferred wording out of a great many that have been discussed here that do not is simply an "I want it my way" approach. The strong majority of similar sources do not agree with that definition. JJL (talk) 13:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL you are the only one who "wants it your way", and is repeating proposals considered in the past before a compromise was reached. Find a mirror, and look in it please. DMSBel (talk) 14:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DMS said; "Semantics is relevant, we are discussing a definition." I certainly would agree. In fact, I believe that semantics are very important. Gandydancer (talk) 12:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They are important because they have been somewhat neglected, not because they are the only thing which matters. Bringing up semantics is not turning the discussion wholly into a semantic one. It would be impossible to do so. DMSBel (talk) 13:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that we are ignoring semantics when we use the phrase "before it can survive outside the womb" Gandydancer (talk) 13:34, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you care to elucidate further?DMSBel (talk) 13:42, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly an awkward construction, where a simpler one is available. JJL (talk) 13:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You know a simpler one won't suffice. The more simplistic or generic it becomes the less it serves to tell us anything in particular. DMSBel (talk) 14:07, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything of the sort. I agree with the professionals--the current version minus 'usually' (with caveats placed in the body of the article to indicate any opposing views) and with 'viable' in place of the longer phrasing is how the term is actually defined. JJL (talk) 16:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Therein lies the problem. You can't possibly object to one editor who argues against that and presents reliable sources (as were already in the earlier consensus version), as you began from a position of arguing from your own assertion, without source, evidence or consensus, but only preceded by another editors asinine comment (made in tit-for-tat fashion) already passed over by an editor who has been on the article longer than you have JJL, and who might have been likely to take it up if he didn't know something of the article history. I agree with the consensus on the lede first sentence that stood from 2006 until at least 8 June 2011 (and in my view hasn't been nullified). I won't question without very, very good reason something re-established by consensus several times as the best possible compromise in light of the options. Based on the medico-legal explanation of abortion, refuted by no other MEDRS, and which also concurs with Merriam/Webster Medical Dictionary. There cannot be a change (of the kind you seem to be proposing) that would not at the same time mean the bar is set so high that no other source currently used in the article could reach it and thus disqualifying current sources as unreliable. The best option is to leave the lede as it was as of 8 June 2011, until there is a RFC, or review. You might want to discuss elsewhere about whether wikipedia needs an {advocacy?-discuss} inline tag, if there is not one. Such a tag would in any case be only applicable to advocacy groups, not to my mind at least, non-partisan medico-legal sources.DMSBel (talk) 18:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that its much more than just awkward, its very misleading. Gandydancer (talk) 14:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Either say why, or refrain from commenting, this "its very misleading" without explaining your view on why it is misleading gets us nowhere.DMSBel (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's misleading because it distorts the meaning of the definition used by 22 of the 24 references that we have used for it. Gandydancer (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. It's a technical term and we shouldn't shy away from giving the proper definition, as per the overwhelming majority of the sources (regardless of what editing has occurred to the current list in the article). JJL (talk) 16:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be surprised if either of you understands exactly what the other is saying. As for a standard definition there isn't one as such as could be called standard. The Merriam/Webster one given that it is used by MEDLINE, seems to be as close to standard as we can find in a medical dictionary. It seems quite POV to not want to use it because it mentions death. DMSBel (talk) 18:58, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would need to correct my numbers - I see that the references are much changed since I last looked at them. Gandydancer (talk) 15:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I feel we have gone from bad to worse for the definition. I took a good look at all the definitions and they just do not use the phrase as we are using it. It came up a few times, 4 I believe it was, but even still it was always used a little differently. And I believe that they had good reason for not using that term, survive, at least in the way we are. It's an interesting situation. Look at the definition for survive: intransitive verb 1)to remain alive or in existence : live on 2)to continue to function or prosper 3)to remain alive after the death of <he is survived by his wife> 4)to continue to exist or live after <survived the earthquake> 5) to continue to function or prosper despite : withstand <they survived many hardships> — (survivor is the noun) However when the term is used in fetal viability, it means to reach a stage where one moves from "nothingness" to "survival" rather that from life through a deadly crisis and then to go on with life. Anyone follow me? I may be wrong or I may have not explained it very well. Of course, perhaps both! Gandydancer (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree with you. The current language is a back-door way to get in life/death as much as possible, in contravention of the medical language. I too feel the language used by physicians in their reference works has been carefully chosen and that this has nuances that are not desirable in the defn.. -JJL — Preceding unsigned comment added by JJL (talk • contribs) 14:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst chasing after a definition for "lifetime risk", I stumbled upon an excellent source which explicitly compares WHO to CDC nomenclature in these matters. I believe a careful reading may be helpful and informative.

• The methods and materials of demography (2 ed.). Emerald Group Publishing. 2004. pp. 352–3. ISBN 9780126419559. OCLC 54856189. {{cite book}}: Cite uses deprecated parameter |authors= (help); Unknown parameter |editors= ignored (|editor= suggested) (help)

Even better, an earlier version from 1980 (pp.389-390 pertain) is PD-USGov so we can quote to our hearts' collaborative delight! LeadSongDog come howl! 19:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL,Yes, I agree. I believe that by attempting to to get rid of the term death we have tried every which way to compromise and ended up with what we've got - original research. But sometimes compromise is not an option. The fetus is either alive or not alive. Only God knows for sure and apparently some people feel that they have direct communications from Him. As far as I'm concerned "God" said what ever you want to think is just fine as long as you don't tell anybody else what to think. If this issue again comes to a straw poll vote I will never vote for what we've got even if it breaks the vote to the point that the "death" votes would win. Gandydancer (talk) 19:39, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lack of consensus is not the same as no knowledge on the subject. Any discovery in science is a given. It is as true before the discovery as after. Consensus takes a little longer to be sure. Medicine is not agnostic on when life begins. Best practice requires where there is lack of consensus to, "err on the side of caution", ie. do no harm. This is normative in the medical profession in regard to pregnancy both with reference to a mother and her fetus. For instance before delicate and risky fetal surgery (not abortion) Tocolytics are not administered if the risk is higher for the fetus inside the womb than if delivered, such as may be the case in intrauterine infection, unexplained vaginal bleeding and fetal distress. DMSBel (talk) 09:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone that has not been following this would wonder what the hell I am talking about "alive or not alive". Obviously it is alive in one sense. I mean Life, not life...Gandydancer (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We could use the preponderance of WP:MEDRS provided in the notes. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 20:03, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please try to not be so sensible as it will only cause confusion. Gandydancer (talk) 21:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. My bad. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:20, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gandydancer, if you're saying that the "death" version of the lead is superior to the current version, I agree. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 20:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's better only in that it did not screw around and hide behind words that say the same thing in a cowardly and sneaky manner. A 12 year old understands what viable means and I'm sick of hearing the excuse that an adult does not. We are not a panel of experts here. If anyone is so brilliant that they need to share their vast knowledge, let them go work on the physics articles or such where they need to at least show that they have some skills. It takes no skill what-so-ever to work on this article so for crying out loud you'd think you would be humble enough to agree that our definition should not be something that we just make up. Gandydancer (talk) 20:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're never going to convince me that A 12 year old understands what viable means and I'm sick of hearing the excuse that an adult does not. since I misunderstood what it meant earlier (and I'm 51), or at least that's what someone else said! Viable means many things (e.g. "viable option"). But I think I agree with the gist of what you are saying. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 22:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed--that's what we have tried to do, but it's slipping backward piece by piece. I would certainly favor a return to 'viable', sand 'usually', because that's what the sources clearly say. JJL (talk) 03:52, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article begins by addressing abortion as a biological event related to pregnancy. The article narrows down to human abortion, and even moreso to induced abortion. IN the begininng, when the basic definition mentions life, everyone needs to step back and remember that the definition is not species-specific, and is not even a medical definition. This is a biological, veterinary, and medical definition - and even goes beyond that. All biological, veterinary, and medical resources agree:

• A pregnancy initially requires a living horse/pig/human embryo/fetus inside of a female horse/pig/human (normally within a uterus).
• The end of the pregnancy occurs when the horse/pig/human embryo/fetus exits the female horse/pig/human.
• The horse/pig/human embryo/fetus can exit the female horse/pig/human either dead or alive.
• If the horse/pig/human embryo/fetus exits the female horse/pig/human dead, it is an abortion (miscarriage, still birth, induced abortion).
• If the horse/pig/human embryo/fetus exits the female horse/pig/human alive, it is live birth.

There are dozens of MED:RS that confirm this and have been cited repeatedly on this talk page since 2005. Please post citations of MED:RS that negate any of the above facts. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 20:28, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, since you're back (and talking about "facts" again), could you go two threads up and answer my question about some other "facts" you've cited? Thanks. MastCell ^Talk 20:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right. Not human specific. Convenient. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 21:30, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give the IP a break. MastCell you don't give a toss if there is a stat. corresponding to what the IP stated. I know your type, keep pushing IPs around. "Wheres it say this?", "wheres it say that?". Then when you're shown you find something else wrong with it, or you just remain silent. Wise up and give the rest of us a break. Goes for other editors who are at that game too. DMSBel (talk) 21:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Such cynicism, and from someone who was just recently criticizing my failure to assume good faith (see #15). I'm willing to let the IP spout whatever rhetoric he wants (clearly, the talk page guidelines were long since beaten into submission). But if he cites a "fact", then I'd like to know whether it's truly a fact. I'm old-fashioned like that. In the best case, the IP provides a source and I learn something. In a not-so-best case, I've at least given him a chance to correct a false statement, before I conclude that he doesn't give a damn about facts and should be ignored.

Incidentally, if you read WP:V (which, admittedly, not many do these days), it actually insists that we as editors ask "Where's it say this? Where's it say that?" But again, I'm old-fashioned. MastCell ^Talk 23:47, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for my cynicism hopefully it has not advanced too far. Maybe you do in fact want a published stat. to confirm what the IP said. But we'd get a lot further in this discussion if we all would just acknowledge the sources we have, including the ones we don't particularly like are the ones that are probably going to be used for this article. Ruling out a respected medico-legal source would only impoverish the quality of sourcing generally across Wikipedia. Not having followed this discussion from earlier years I somewhat accepted at face value a un-informed comment or two earlier in the discussion regarding Gynaecology for Lawyers as not ranking well amongst authorative sources. Well if that is the way wikipedians rank sources, they have set the bar higher than pretty much every source currently in the article! Seriously. I have seen this before - editors saying in disdain in effect "That?! source" in regard to a source with very nearly impeccible credentials, simply because it confirms a particular POV they don't like. By all means we need to careful in regard to sources. But quite simply put, the problems with either Merriam/Webster, or Gynaecology for Lawyers, or some of the other sources given in support of "...caused by or resulting in its death" are more to do with the POVs of a few editors and nothing whatever to do with reliability of those sources. Having found out what a source says, you can't just then retort "I don't like it" WP:IDONTLIKEIT and you're right WP:V does not seem to be read by many these days. Could you tell me on you're reading of that if there is anything in the lede first sentence that is not verifiable, in a reliable source? (talk) 18:54, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give the IP a break? After four-months break time is over. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Artifex, when you joined this discussion you made one of the best posts in the discussion at least in my time here. You didn't take sides, but you made it clear in your post we should not obfusicate the issue. There has been a lot of discussion in between (as well as before), but I think some of your basic comments still have some weight in the discussion. The IP has not been saying anything that is outside the scope of the medical profession's normative view in regard to the status of both fetus and mother as patients, or indeed that contradicts your first post here (as I understood it). Tendentious editing is one thing, but thats not what we have in the case of the IP, he simply wants acknowledgement of what is common knowledge in Medical practice.DMSBel (talk) 10:21, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. However you should keep details of my posts in context. Early on there was a debate about when Life begins. The sources supplied didn't hold water so I rejected the argument, finally declaring "that dog won't hunt" (and it still won't). The argument as changed. Currently I'm looking for a policy or guideline and supporting argument that the consensus lede using death overrides the majority of medical texts that don't phrase it that way. The same rehtorical questions, requests for negating sources, claims the article is not medical, is not human specific, google word searches provided as sources, that this or that terminology is meely mouthed or euphemistic, the source doesn't talk about xyz, etc. repeated over the past month in the 398 [21][22][23] edits by the IP and 469 [24][25] edits by you are not helping me find a solution. Right now I see a simple issue of WP:MEDRS verses WP:CONSENSUS and WP:MEDRS is winning. I am listening but patience is not a death pact. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 13:42, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What I can't quite understand is why you are looking for policy arguments to remove verifiable and reliable source information. Do you think the silence in definitions of abortion indicates a agnosticism in the medical profession with regard to pre-birth life. It's strange how hard a few editors are trying to remove this. "...resulting in or caused by its death" comports with the sources we have. DMSBel (talk) 15:08, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see this all across WP--an editor finds one generally reasonable source that agrees with his viewpoint and insists it be given equal weight with the multitude that don't. I've seen numerous editors all over WP state things like "all verifiable information must be included in the article". The most annoying part of this discussion is that no one is saying that the less commonly occurring views can't be discussed further in the body of the article--just that they don't belong in the lede. It's a matter of the weight of sources. Since this is a definition, it isn't surprising that different authorities define and use it in different ways. But there's a strongly modal phrasing, and it's before it is viable. JJL (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, your spin fails yet again. There is a field of forensic pathology that conducts "post mortem" exams (aka "autopsies") of fetuses that were intentionally killed during induced feticide abortion procedures. Post mortem means "after death" - autopsies can only be performed on a fetus that died. Forensic pathology has as its main goal to understand what led to the subject cadaver's ill-health and death. There is another field of medicine that focuses on fetal therapy and fetal surgery, wherein the fetus is clearly treated as a living patient. Of course I don't expect any acknowledgment from you of these facts of life and death. But I am posting these facts for the record. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 01:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving aside the OR/synthesis aspect of this: Why don't the physicians who write the textbooks know what you do? JJL (talk) 02:06, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which is the generally reasonable source you refer to? I have asked you JJL repeatedly about inclusion in lede and body of the article. About your specific objections, limits of your objections? You won't give a plain answer. The problem as I see it and as at least one other editor has noted, is that you have a cognitive bias. Now, I never took issue with the definition in all the time I have worked on this article. I have waited before acting on concern from other editors towards other aspects of the lede and sections, that I agree with. Basically because I know my own views on the matter, and I don't want them to bias my actions and some of the issues raised need broached carefully, and I need to do further reading at times. I see no way at all that a non-partisan medico-legal source could be advocacy. I asked you about this, but you backed away from the advocacy claim. I really am not sure how to convince you. Fallacy from silence meet fallacy from ignorance! And you are basically arguing it seems to me - no knowledge without consensus, which is altogether back to front. You seem to also be putting epistemology before ontology. DMSBel (talk) 14:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you arguing that lawyers aren't advocates? JJL (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wondered if you'd try that little trick with words. To late, you had about three opportunities to say what you meant by advocacy. Each time you backed away. Whats concerning is that you know you are playing games, and you know that the lede has consensus with "death" in it, and you know that you are wasting editors time, and that you are on a mission. Do you think no-one else sees this? Take my word for it they do. And you know what, you'll have a topic block soon if you keep this up. DMSBel (talk) 19:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What do we actually know today, that eclipses what experts in embryology told us 50 years ago? And it better be relevant to the issue of when life begins. DMSBel (talk) 15:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your argument rests on 50 year old science, despite all the up-to-date references that have been provided? What we know is that what once may have seemed very simple to some is much more complex than first thought. (This is not to say that I agree with your assumptions about what was widely believed 50 years ago.) That is, I presume, one reason why so many sources avoid such unsettled and complicated issues. JJL (talk) 16:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It simple JJL, things don't move out of the domain of knowledge like that. Belief was not needed to know this 50 years ago. What was knowledge then is knowledge now. I am not going to keep arguing with you. Stop changing the lede to the version that there is no consensus for. DMSBel (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's too much activity between long-involved users for me to get involved in the discussions already here, but what's the problem with saying "usually before it is viable"? Viability comes around the end of the second trimester or early third trimester. Abortions can occur in the third trimester right up until the moment of birth. To say all abortions happen before viability is a blatant falsehood. NYyankees51 (talk) 04:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why the lead should refer to death, not viability.-- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:37, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed above, "death" only occurs after "live birth" by definition. Perhaps you meant "fetal death"? In any case it ought to be obvious by now that neither wording will gain consensus for use in the lede. We have very reliable sources which manage to define the term without reference to "death", or "fetal death", or "viability". We can keep this very simple, as in "An abortion is the end of a pregnancy which does not result in a live birth." Leave the whole discussion of viability, induced/spontaneous, premature birth, and all the other complications for the article body. They are ancilliary to the fundamental idea. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:53, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, Leadsong, you are wrong: forensic pathologists conduct post mortem exams (autopsies) on fetuses who were killed during induced-feticide abortion procedures.74.5.176.81 (talk) 01:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But pregnancies can end with spontaneous absorptions, which are not abortions. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:57, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted MCP,s edit since only 1 reference of the 24 we offer uses the word death in their definition. Gandydancer (talk) 11:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true. Gandydancer (talk) 11:51, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted Gandydancer's revert, for the following reason: There are no MEDRS which refute either the earlier medico-legal source used which states: "At conception (the union of a sperm and an egg), a new individual is created" [Gynaecology for Lawyers - Medico-Legal Practitioner Series (1998 Routledge/Cavendish)] page 19.

or Merriam Webster Medical dictionary definition :  : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as a): spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage b): induced expulsion of a human fetus [[26]], they therefore more than meet WP:RS and MEDRS. DMSBel (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Even assuming all that were true, the 'death' phrasing does not have consensus--indeed, consensus is clearly against using it. Even if all that were it wouldn't mean it must go in the lede. It also fails on the WP:WEIGHT consideration. JJL (talk) 23:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, consensus is not clearly against using it. Either give this up or ask a neutral uninvolved editor to run an RFC. DMSBel (talk) 10:59, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, your stock sinks lower everytime you claim consensus for your view, just the IP's does when they open a new talk page section. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 11:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My stock hit bottom as soon as I edited your precious consensus, didn't it? JJL (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is a serious issue in regard to a mere new consensus assertion versus actual established (by neutral Admin) new consensus, which would require an RFC, so far I see only JJL and a couple of other editors even arguing that there is no-consensus. Who in their right mind wants to get involved in a game of consensus ping-pong. "Now we have it", "now you don't" scored by individual players or each side bringing their own umpire!. I agree the FAQ should not set any current wording in stone, but it should address what has been asked in regard to particular terms.DMSBel (talk) 11:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus doesn't require an RFC. The consensus here is clearly against the 'death' version. Can we move forward from there? JJL (talk) 16:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

LeadSong, if death is defined by the cessation of a heartbeat and brain function, isn't life defined by the presence of a heartbeat and brain function? The fetus has a heartbeat and brain function, and abortion ceases these, therefore abortion is the death of the fetus. NYyankees51 (talk) 16:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When the cells, tissues, other are cultured for research, stem cells or otherwise, or other uses (i.e. not killed, destroyed, etc) is it still an abortion? ArtifexMayhem (talk) 17:23, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If it causes the death of the embryo, yes, though it's not referred to as an abortion - it's referred to as death. NYyankees51 (talk) 17:30, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

None of this is supported by even a substantial minority of the professional-quality sources we have, though. As has been discussed here in great detail, the 'life' issue is very complicated at the least, with many conflicting views. I don't agree with yours, for example. JJL (talk) 23:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For the umpteenth time, the medical definitions are not relevant. The issue is about clarity (and accuracy), not some mealy-mouthed surgeon's euphemism. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I can't believe you actually wrote "the medical definitions are not relevant". Medical opinions on a medical and/or surgical procedure (or medical event in the case of miscarriage) aren't relevant? Abortion is first and foremost a medical matter--indeed, it's only a medical matter, but one that happens to elicit commentary from a wide variety of non-medical communities. The reaction to it is surely an important topic to cover but we are talking about an aspect of medicine and the cultural/religious response to it. As to accuracy, we've established that the medical community--not just one lone surgeon--thinks it's based on viability. JJL (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't the medical textbooks say that, then? JJL (talk) 23:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a good question and this page has already provided some answers. Did you miss that? There are various rational reasons that these "textbooks" use imprecise legalisms and sophistry. The bottom line is that most basic abortion descriptions written for abortion practitioners employ imprecise language and euphemism - and some simply defy the unassailable biological facts verified by reams of RS (as has been shown here since 2005 with endless MEDRS and other RS). One does have to ask: "Why would some "textbook" authors writing for certain audiences contradict known biological and medical facts?" Such a lack of integrity by such authors has got you bogged down in defending such defiance of unassailable fact. Word-smithing of the definition for abortion so as to hide any unpleasant science seems to be Orwellian newspeak (and would seemingly be against wikipedia policy, no?). 74.5.176.81 (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People keep saying that it's a conspiracy among all major medical textbook authors but I don't see any verifiable sourcing of that--just that it's obvious to so many of you who prefer 'death' in the description. Since virtually all major sources use 'viable', I'd think you could source the claim of such a conspiracy. If not, it's just your own personal opinion--and that's WP:OR, however common-sense it is to you. Let's see the sources that support the claim that physicians are knowingly writing false things in the texts used to train the next generation of physicians. It isn't enough that it's clear to you that that's so--it must be sourced. Otherwise, you're arguing against an avalanche of first-rate secondary sources on the matter. JJL (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An IVF embryo in a test-tube is not a "pregnancy". If the life/development/growth of the embryo is aborted, it is not an "abortion" in the mainstream sense of the word, which is always related to pregnancy (seems I agree with NYyankee's view of the basic science). Any removal of tissues or stem cells from a living embryo is an embryonic vivisection, which (I suggest) necessarily ends the life of that organism, which is a human offspring (offspring is a widely used technical term for an embryo or fetus), regardless of whether one sees that offspring as a person or not. The point is, the embryo was alive and then dies due to the vivisection. If I donated blood (or a kidney) one day, and died a day later, I am dead even if my blood (or kidney) is alive inside another person. Of course if the vivisection does not kill the embryo (I suppose that might be possible) and it still maintains the normal life function of an embryo such that it could implant inside a uterus and continue its human development cycle, then it would still be a living offspring, so there is no abortion. But if its truly a clump of dismembered and mangled living cells that do not resemble an intact embryonic offspring, then it seems that it would no longer be an offspring, though the cells that remain would be "alive". 74.5.176.81 (talk) 19:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For those who might not know (and I have encountered many who don't know, but think they do), the only time an embryo is destroyed (killed) as part of embryonic stem cell research is when a new embryonic stem cell line is created. The extracted cell is then replicated in labs - an almost infinite replication. The people who do most of the "embryonic stem cell research" use these replicated cells, which are not embryos, and never were in any embryos. The vast majority of these researchers never even get near any embryos, let alone destroy them. When a researcher uses such a cell line, she does not destroy (kill) any embryos. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 19:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the question NYyankees51. If we rely on "usually viable" to define abortion in of itself, it doesn't accomplish what we wish it to; to encompass and define the abortion topic -- medical texts do not define the topic, rather the surgical procedure, to gloss over this is intellectually deficient. I've asked users to clarify if an abortion makes a fetus defacto (automatically) non-viable. I haven't received an answer. It is also a weasel word we try to avoid at Wikipedia... biologically that may not be possible, but we should try. - RoyBoy 06:13, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This section is reserved exclusively for a running list of abortion definitions following the format used for #1 with comments in the section that follows labeled "Comments on each Numbered Definition". Please ensure any definition you leave is NOT signed, as the list is designed to be an objective neutral list. I will be housekeeping this section for compliance with the format guidelines that I have outlined here. Please do not leave any comments of any kind in this section (just definitions). 74.5.176.81 (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• 1. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition, 2008. abortion: 1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as (a) : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage (b) : induced expulsion of a human fetus (c) : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy.
• 2. Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, 2005 (also used as the "MedlinePlus" online dictionary by the U.S. National Library of Medicine, a division of the National Institutes for Health). abortion: 1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus: as (a) : spontaneous expulsion of a human fetus during the first 12 weeks of gestation — compare miscarriage (b) : induced expulsion of a human fetus (c) : expulsion of a fetus by a domestic animal often due to infection at any time before completion of pregnancy.
• 3. Merriam-Webster's Legal Dictionary, 1996 (also used as the online legal dictionary by "FindLaw For Legal Professionals", a Thomson Reuters website). abortion: 1. the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus; esp. : the medical procedure of inducing expulsion of a human fetus to terminate a pregnancy.
• 4. Oxford World Dictionary, 2010. abortion: 1. the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks: the expulsion of a fetus from the womb by natural causes before it is able to survive independently.
• 5.MacMillan Dictionary, abortion: a medical operation in which a developing baby is removed from a woman’s body so that it is not born alive.
• 6.Collins English learner’s dictionary, abortion: a medical operation in which a pregnancy is deliberately ended and the baby is not born alive.
• 7.Cambridge University Dictionary of American English, abort: to end a pregnancy esp. by an operation before the baby is ready to be born.
• 8.Webster's New World Collegiate Dictionary, abortion: any deliberate procedure that removes, or induces the expulsion of, a living or dead embryo or fetus

---

Comments on each Numbered Definition This section is reserved exclusively for a running list of comments following the format used for #1, in numerical order using the corresponding definition numbers from the section "Numbered Collection of Definitions". Please keep all comments for one definition together. I will be housekeeping this section.

• 1. Plus: The only definition that applies to EVERY abortion, but does not incorrectly apply to any live births. Plus: Absolutely mainstream source. Could not be more mainstream, actually. Plus: Most popular US dictionary (best-selling and most relied upon). Plus: This publisher also uses the same definition in its medical dictionary and its legal dictionary - which means the definition has been vetted by professional editors of specialty dictionaries as appropriate in those specialty dictionaries, as well as in a lay dictionary. Plus: Dictionary recommended and relied upon by the Chicago Manual of Style, which is the bible for most US editors and publishers. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 17:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• 2. Plus: The NIH trusts this medical dictionary as its online medical dictionary for MedlinePlus. Plus: Could not be more mainstream as a medical reference website.74.5.176.81 (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• 3. Plus: FindLaw For Legal Professionals and the consumer version of FindLaw trusts this as its online medical dictionary. Plus: Could not be more mainstream as a legal reference website.74.5.176.81 (talk) 18:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• 4. Minus: Definition includes every induced live birth. Plus: Does not make false claims about viability, properly applies to abortions after viability. Plus: Mainstream. Plus: Faulty (because it defines induced live births), but better then those definitions making false claims about viability. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 18:27, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

Other

STOP creating new sections. WP:TLDR. You're pissing everyone off and undermining your own position. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 20:11, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We have an editor claiming that only one resource mentions death/destruction/life. I am documenting that such a claim is simply not true. I appreciate that some people don't want accurate information to inform the lead and so they will attack my style rather then my content - and I appreciate your caution. However, it will be useful to have all the definitions/sources to be in one place (and right now that place is not the article footnotes or notes section). Your tone is not civil, by the way - and your comment would be better at my IP talk page (as WP:TLDR suggests). I suppose I can be bad cop and you can be good cop if you think that will work - let me know.74.5.176.81 (talk) 20:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please listen to Michael. If it were up to me, you would have been prohibited from opening new threads a long time ago - what you're doing is completely counterproductive and has rendered this talkpage largely unusable. How about you stop creating new threads, and go back to finish up some of the discussions above? About 3 threads up, you made what I think is a false statement. I've asked you to support it several times now. Would you take someone seriously if they made apparently false statements and then ignored requests for clarification? MastCell ^Talk 23:34, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should we semiprotect the talk page? -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 05:30, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A list of dictionaries doesn't stack up well against the earlier lists of textbooks used by professionals to train professionals. Asking that they all be gathered back here again seems to me to be yet another stalling tactic. JJL (talk) 23:38, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your spin is tiresome. This is not a medical article. It is a broad article covering mostly non-medical aspects of abortion as a social/political/legal/philosophical phenomenon. Certainly the framing used by "textbooks used by professionals" is framing for professionals - but broad non-medical wikipedia articles (such as this one) are NOT written for that same purpose. In fact, the framing used by mainstream sources should carry more weight than that framing of medical textbooks. There is so much more that is wrong with your comment, but it has all been posted here by other editors in the past month and whenever this topic has been discussed on this talkpage since 2005. And it has frequently been abortion supporters who have been most eloquent at insisting that this article must not be censored and must be factual and candid and void of euphemism and squishy walking on eggshells terminology. 74.5.176.81 (talk)

Stop the horseshit about opening new sections. People open new sections on talk pages. Just stop the whining. And I will answer questions as I see fit; when all other questions above (that several editors have consistently dodged) are answered to my satisfaction, I will consider addressing questions others have of me. The content of the article does not hinge on the nit you wish to pick, anyway. The bottom line is that viable fetuses are aborted every year by the tens of thousands. A tiny fraction of viable-fetus abortions are to prevent death or serious injury to mother or to a seriously deformed/diseased fetus. In fact, most of them in the west are late- choice birth control, and in Asia most of them are sex selection abortions that are performed to kill females fetuses. This is all unassailable fact which has been verified repeatedly on this talk page with no acknowledgment by most of the "viable" crowd. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 01:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you're right. Death might not be so bad. There is still a lot of good stuff we can cover. You make a good point on the numbers... I think we do around ~3,700 a day in the US, that should have some good positives right? Good for the economy, jobs, taxes and such. Yeah. Here I was thinking abortion just wouldn't be any fun with death in the lede and that if we could just gloss over that the topic would be back to its old self. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 02:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, we shouldn't speak so plainly about X because X is such a widely practiced and universally accepted thing. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 09:40, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Caterpillar: Recite.
• Alice: Oh. Yes sir. How doth the little bumblebee improve each...
• Caterpillar: Stop. That is not spoken correctically. It goes: How doth the little crocodile improve his shining tail. And pour the waters of the Nile, on every golden scale. How cheerfully he seems to grin, how neatly spreads his claws. And welcomes little fishes in, with gently smiling jaws.
• Alice: Well, I must say, I've never heard it that way before.
• Caterpillar: I know. I have improoooved it.

Gandydancer (talk) 02:29, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Alice = Science.
• Caterpillar = Euphemism.

74.5.176.81 (talk) 09:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUELu8o5KJg Gandydancer (talk) 14:22, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"An abortion (i) terminates a pregnancy, ending the physical dependency relationship the fetus has to the mother, and (ii) terminates the life of the fetus, ending both its present functions as an organism and its ongoing development into a more complex one."

• Source: Abortion and the Death of the Fetus, Steven l. Ross, Philosophy & Public Affairs, Vol. 11, No. 3, Summer, 1982 (cited 19 times by other authors)
• 74.5.176.81 (talk) 06:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the Porky Pig rendition was a great improvement of the Bing Crosby version. Of course, to each his own. Gandydancer (talk) 11:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The old version with 'death' in it no longer enjoys consensus; consensus is squarely against the use of 'death'. We do need to get some stability in the lede, however. An RFC has been suggested but to be perfectly frank I fear it'd be just another drawn-out process after which the lede would be still subject to edit-warring if the 'death' version did not prevail, given the tenacious clinging to the old version I've seen here. Some editors are emotionally invested in it. For the sake of stability, would re-inserting "usually" before "before it is viable" be enough to keep a version in place while discussion continues? JJL (talk) 19:29, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Says you. But you have not done an RFC. The straw poll did not reach any consensus, and you are proving to everyone watching the page how tendentious you can be. Needless to say I won't get into an edit war on this. DMSBel (talk) 19:34, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, if there is truly consensus to remove "death" from the lead, then simply remove "death" from the lead. Anything further than that requires consensus as well. I and several other editors do not support "viable" in the lead, for several reasons. My own reasons include that most non-technical definitions do not have anything to do with viability, and furthermore we could say with equal accuracy that most abortions are performed before quickening, which occurs before viability. Why are you insisting on jamming "viability" into the lead sentence when there is no consensus to do so? It's very disruptive, IMHO. For more info about how the editorial process is supposed to work, please see WP:BRD, which unfortunately is frequently ignored at this article.Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:42, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I do agree that what we have is a consensus to remove 'death' but that the support for inserting 'viable' is not as strong. With 'death' gone it seems that something else needs to be in its place and the usual defn. involves viability. I am happy to work on the matter of the lede--indeed, I suggested we give consideration to the "use neither word" suggestion from DRN. The current version is acceptable to me in the name of stability as we continue to discuss the matter. JJL (talk) 20:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, does the current lede (rev by Anythingyouwant) work for you? For what it's worth I'm OK with it. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 20:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anythingyouwant I have no problem with what you are saying, but it needs said that JJL is sidestepping holding an RFC and won't say why. As the article is of interest and importance to multiple projects and the lede first sentence was stable until 8 June 2011, nothing less in my view is sufficient. If we don't set a proper example here, new editors may think they can set up a new consensus by merely questioning an old one, and presenting no new reasoning. We all know that a single involved editor cannot assert consensus or lack of it. Current definition is essentially the same as that for a live birth. Would you mind running a RFC?DMSBel (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In fact I just said why in the opening paragraph of this section. I've said the same previously...and that I don't object to someone else starting one JJL (talk) 20:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is a reasonable compromise while the discussion continues. If this is what it takes to get stability, I'm OK with that as a stopgap measure. JJL (talk) 20:41, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL your only problem has been the word "death" even when we had sources and found more sources verifying it, that strikes me as POV, and you ignored the suggestion from the DRN to use both terms. And what does "as a stop-gap measure" mean?. Am I the only one who finds JJL hard to understand. I have asked you how it is advocacy, and what is being advocated but you won't answer. Advocacy seems to me to be more about affirming as correct statements made by advocacy groups. Saying something like the "The Guttmacher Institute is correct when they state..." is advocacy, using a medical dictionary definition isn't.DMSBel (talk) 21:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There were a number of suggestions at DRN. I brought what I thought was the most promising one here. Others could've brought their own. Your complaint is, in essence, that I tried to do something to help achieve a stable consensus. JJL (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DMS, as you know we do not have more and more sources that use the word death. We have 23 sources for our definition and only 1 uses the word death. Gandydancer (talk) 21:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another editor has stated that ENCARTA used "death" in its definition. Surely you are not arguing that the fetus doesn't die in an abortion? There is no question anymore as to when life begins - science knows the answer - at conception, ask any high school biology student. If an abortion doesn't result in the death of the fetus, its not an abortion.

Going by this guide to writing definitions[[27]], I see nothing wrong with including "...caused by or resulting in its death". I cannot see how we have a definition without that. DMSBel (talk) 22:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You still have not been able to explain how you know when life begins when even the U.S. Supreme Court does not. Again, to quote them from Roe v. Wade: We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate.

Check out the very recent Indiana ruling: Federal court decides life does begin at conception. [[28]]DMSBel (talk) 22:45, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It certainly sounds like the matter of death in abortion is controversial and contested, then. JJL (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The court did not DECIDE life begins at conception. The court DENIED a preliminary motion for injunctive relief...

(The Indiana statue) requires that the Practitioner inform the woman seeking an abortion that “human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm.” Notably, the term “human physical life” is neither a medical term nor statutorily defined. The question arises: Does this statement amount to compelled speech in violation of Practitioners’ First Amendment rights?...(snip)...Because Ind. Code § 16-34-2-1.1(a)(1)(E)’s mandated statement reflects only the moment, biologically speaking, a living organism of the human species is formed, the Court is not persuaded that PPIN has demonstrated a reasonable likelihood of success on the merits. As the Supreme Court has observed, “A preliminary injunction is an extraordinary and drastic remedy, one that should not be granted unless the movant, by a clear showing, carries the burden of persuasion.” Mazurek v. Armstrong, 520 U.S. 968, 972, (1997) This Court finds that PPIN has not met its requisite burden. The Motion for Injunctive Relief as to Section 16-34-2.1.1(a)(1)(E) is DENIED.

The full document is here. Good reading. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 04:45, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the denial of biology in there. Typical legalese. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 07:06, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "legalese" says that the case would have to go to a full trial--it isn't so clearly one-sided that a decision can be made without one. That's why they declined to issue the injunction. JJL (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link, yes interesting reading. PPIN (Planned Parenthood Int.) have been denied the injunction against the earlier ruling in regard having to telling women human physical life begins at conception, from my reading of it, correct me if I am wrong:

“In order to determine the plain and ordinary meaning of words, courts may properly consult English language dictionaries.” Id. (quoting Redden, 850 N.E.2d at 463). Here, the words “human,” “physical,” and “life”¹¹ are all used frequently in common parlance... When read together, the language crafted by the legislature in this provision supports a finding that the mandated statement refers exclusively to a growing organism that is a member of the Homo sapiens species. Although the Court recognizes that the term “human being” may refer to a theological, ideological designation relating to the metaphysical characteristics of life, that is not the language found before the Court today. Rather, the inclusion of the biology-based word “physical” is significant, narrowing this statement to biological characteristics. The adjectives “human” and “physical” reveal that the legislature mandated only that the Practitioner inform the woman that at conception, a living organism of the species Homo sapiens is created. When the statement is read as a whole” it does not require a physician to address whether the embryo or fetus is a “human life” in the metaphysical sense. Further, this Court finds that Ind. Code Section 16-34-2-1.1(a)(1)(E)’s mandated statement is not misleading. In Casey, the controlling opinion held that an informed consent requirement in the abortion context was “no different from a requirement that a doctor give certain specific information about any medical procedure.” Casey, 505 U.S., at 884; see also Gonzales v. Carhart, 550 U.S. 124, 163 (2007). Informed consent provisions serve not only to communicate information that would not necessarily be known to the patient, but also help the woman to make a fully informed decision. “Requiring that the woman be informed of the availability of information relating to fetal development … is a reasonable measure to ensure an informed choice.” Casey, 505 U.S. at 883. Here, the mandated statement states only a biological fact relating to the development of the living organism; therefore, it may be reasonably read to provide accurate, non-misleading information to the patient.

Under Indiana law, a physician must disclose the facts and risks of a treatment which a reasonably prudent physician would be expected to disclose under like circumstances, and which a reasonable person would want to know. Spar v. Cha, 907 N.E.2d 974, 984 (Ind. 2009); see also Weinberg v. Bess, 717 N.E.2d 584, 588 n.5 (Ind. 1999). In Casey, the Supreme Court recognized that mandated statements need not be restricted to information related to the medical procedure, or materials concerning carrying the fetus to term. Casey, U.S. at 882. (“We also see no reason why the State may not require doctors to inform a woman seeking an abortion of the availability of materials relating to the consequences to the fetus, even when those consequences have no direct relation to her health.”). The overarching consideration was “to ensure that a woman apprehend the full consequences of her decision,” and through this, “the State furthers the legitimate purpose of reducing the risk that a woman may elect an abortion, only to discover later, with devastating psychological consequences, that her decision was not fully informed.” Id. “If the information the State requires to be made available to the woman is truthful and not misleading, the requirement may be permissible.” Id. The Court’s ruling is reinforced by the deference owed the Indiana legislature. The Supreme Court has articulated that “[a] ruling of unconstitutionality frustrates the intent of the elected representatives of the people.” Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood of Northern New England, 546 U.S. 320, 329 (2006) (quoting Regan v. Time, Inc., 468 U.S. 641, 652, 104 S.Ct. 3262, 82 L.Ed.2d 487 (1984)). Because Ind. Code § 16-34-2-1.1(a)(1)(E)’s mandated statement reflects only the moment, biologically speaking, a living organism of the human species is formed, the Court is not persuaded that PPIN has demonstrated a reasonable likelihood of success on the merits.

¹⁰ The Court will not delve deeply into the Commissioner’s contention that a living organism is formed at successful fertilization. This point is undisputed by Plaintiffs. The issue presently before the Court is whether “physical human life” is a consummation of these undisputed medical facts regarding fertilization and the resulting living organism. Further, in Gonzales v. Carhart, 550 U.S. 124 (2007), the Supreme Court stated that by common understanding and scientific terminology, a fetus is a living organism while within the womb.

¹¹ Compare Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary (11th ed. 2008) which defines “human” as 1) of, relating to, or characteristic of humans, 2) homo sapiens; “physical” as of or relating to natural science, having material existence, of or relating to the body; and “life” as 1) the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body, a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings, an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction, and 2) the period from birth to death, a specific phase of earthly existence with The American Heritage Dictionary which defines “human” as of, relating to, or characteristic of human beings; “physical”’ as ‘of or relating to the body as distinguished from the mind or spirit’; and “life” as 1) the property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism, 2) the characteristic state or condition of a living organism, 3) a living being, especially a person, 4) the physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence, 5) the interval of time between birth and death.[[29]]

Interesting that the court used a Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary and American Heritage Dictionary for comparison. Even more interesting PPIN did not dispute that "a living organism is formed at successful fertilization". DMSBel (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was hoping you would read the order... knew you would like the the dictionary reference :) It will interesting to see how the two sides present as the case goes forward. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 21:20, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, it has repeatedly been suggested that the word viable is too hard to understand while death is easy. I have now asked 5 kids between the ages of 12 and 15 if they understand and not only do they understand what viable means, they are stumped as to why the adults that are posting here do not understand. Gandydancer (talk) 21:50, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly reliable sources. Anyway, viable is simply WRONG. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 22:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then the entire medical community is wrong...assuming you're right. JJL (talk) 00:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You should know by now the "medical community" isn't writing an encyclopedia. - RoyBoy 04:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're making excuses for why we could give the wrong defn. That isn't encyclopedic either. We don't define otehr medical procedures by the social reaction. This isn't the only controversial one. JJL (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Social reaction cuts both both ways, consciously avoiding death is simply another reaction. Did you have controversial examples in mind? - RoyBoy 00:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Circumcision (e.g., look at what's happening in S.F.), euthanasia, body modifications, gender reassignment surgery, extreme plastic/cosmetic surgery, ... JJL (talk) 01:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you trying to tell me the goal of male circumcision is to kill (cause the death) of the foreskin? For females, indeed that's a different story. Euthanasia comes from the latin "good death" (Wikipedia reminded me), so death isn't exactly shoved out of the lead sentence... I could go on, but I fail to see your angle. Where death is applicable it can be used; where it isn't, its not. - RoyBoy 23:38, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're not paying attention--you're just posting on automatic, and it's completely non-sequiter. I'll walk you back through what happened. I wrote "We don't define otehr medical procedures by the social reaction". You wrote "Did you have controversial examples in mind?" I listed "Circumcision (e.g., look at what's happening in S.F.), euthanasia, body modifications, gender reassignment surgery, extreme plastic/cosmetic surgery". You started going on about "death". That wasn't the question. These are other socially controversial surgeries that are not defined by what people think about them but rather by what they are. JJL (talk) 03:36, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What was their answer, maybe they should edit this! The issue is that "death" and "viable" are not alternatives, can't be played against each other. You can't replace "...caused by or resulting in its death" with "before its viable", the latter is simply half-factual. Abortions are performed before and after viability.DMSBel (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@JJL, Thanks. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the lede back to include death, since it is only accurate, plain-English definition around. Without death, the definition was including live births. And "viable" is simply wrong. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 22:39, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Those supporting 'viable' say it's well-supported by the a clear preponderance of the sources. In supporting 'death' you and some other editors make unsupported claims about what is "accurate" or "wrong". That isn't helpful. I support 'viable' because the sources do. JJL (talk) 00:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So why, JJL, do you ignore the sources that say otherwise? -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 07:11, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't. I look at the WP:WEIGHT of sources; which are primary, secondary, or tertiary; and from whence they come. Primarily on grounds of weight, 'viable' is the right choice. By proceeding in this way, in accordance with policy, I don't need to invent reasons to make up my own personal defn. JJL (talk) 13:29, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since you can't even tally up a vote, I don't think you can apply WP:WEIGHT to sources. (And please note the new sources provided recently.)-- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 13:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Funny, I provided an explicit list of whom I counted on each side so anyone else could challenge my results, but from the other side came just a bald assertion of numbers with no explanation that could be vetted. In any event, I gave you a straight answer to your question above and you replied with an ad hominem attack. JJL (talk) 01:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you just sit around and do nothing when edit-warriors change longstanding material in this article without consensus? If you do nothing, then the only recourse seems to be for competent editors to continually use 1RR to restore the consensus version via a slow-motion edit-war. Right?Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:12, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. This is an endless slow-motion edit war between entrenched users on both sides. NYyankees51 (talk) 22:07, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't accept that reverting to the earlier consensus is edit-waring, when no new consensus is established. DMSBel (talk) 22:38, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Verb conjugation 101:

• I am a competent editor continually using 1RR to restore the consensus version.
• You are an edit-warrior changing longstanding material without consensus.

To an uninvolved admin, all of you look like querulous individuals shouting at the top of your lungs with your fingers firmly plugged into your ears. All the more so when you pretend there's a "consensus" version in the face of an obvious lack of consensus. I don't think your claims to the moral high ground are as self-evident as you think they are, which is probably why no uninvolved admins have stepped in to act as you want. MastCell ^Talk 03:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What was that all about?DMSBel (talk) 08:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MastCell, you seriously believe there is consensus to insert "viable" in the lead's first sentence, which has consistently excluded that word for years? Perhaps no uninvolved admin has stepped in to sanction us "querulous" folk because such an assertion on your part (that you are defending consensus) is not credible.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anythingyouwant, stop making stuff up. MastCell never said there is consensus to insert "viable" in the lead's first sentence. You're just confirming what MastCell said. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 07:09, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I support changing the lead sentence to what it said for years (including the word "death") until there is consensus how to change it (e.g. consensus to change it to something like "demise"). MastCell apparently views such an opinion as "querulous", for reasons that I don't understand; he claims to be "continually using 1RR to restore the consensus version" but he has not argued or acted to restore the longstanding consensus version of the lead sentence pending formation of a new consensus about how to change that longstanding version. So, MastCell's participation here seems disruptive, throwing around accusations of querulousness while criticizing others for doing what he claims to be doing himself. Please correct me if I'm mistaken. Changing the lead sentence from the longstanding version, without consensus how to do so, means simply that this article will be formed by bullying and warring instead of rational discussion.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Should the lead sentence say that abortion occurs before the fetus is viable? NYyankees51 (talk) 22:12, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Previously involved editors

• No, because abortions don't always occur before viability. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 22:24, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• No. Basically for the same reason above per Michael C Price DMSBel (talk) 23:00, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes As this is the wording the best sources use. They do not use the term death for reasons previously discussed. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:14, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes the overwhelming majority of professional secondary sources (see the collapsed Extended content section at Talk:Abortion/Archive_42#Reboot:_Definition) use the 'viable' defn. and most of the others do not use 'death'. JJL (talk) 00:32, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes Our references chose to avoid using the term death in their definition because it suggests life begins at the moment of conception, a concept not held by all. Should Wikipedia decide to ignore their wisdom and rather use a minority definition preferred by only a segment of society, most notably the Christian Right in the U.S., we are entering the dangerous waters of political bias. Gandydancer (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can't let that go by. Gandydancer, all biologists hold that life begins at conception. Please stop all this "right-wing" bullshit. (If you dispute this, then find one biologist who explicitly says the developing fetus is not alive.) It is simply a matter of science, and nothing to do with politics or religion.-- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 11:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Michael C Price, please note that we are speaking of the definition, not the body of the article. Gandydancer (talk) 11:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gandydancer, what has that to do with your outrageous smearing-by-association? -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 12:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please argue my opinion elsewhere. Gandydancer (talk) 12:18, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see. So you're allowed to make your smears here, and we are not counter them? -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 12:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disagreement is not a 'smear'. Let's stick to the facts. Certainly you're not really going to dispute that the Pro-Life movement pushes the view that life (whatever that may mean) begins at conception? JJL (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see you chose not understand what the "smear" refers to. Very clever. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 13:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, what a schockingly false statement--esp. in light of all the sources to the contrary that have been produced. JJL (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, while I appreciate your support, I beg that you both take this discussion elsewhere. Thanks. Gandydancer (talk) 13:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I took the liberty of adding the two major statements at discussion. Uninvolved editors may also be interested to read the sources currently in the article. NW (Talk) 22:44, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since some editors have a problem with actually listing what we are discussing:

• Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo usually? before it is viable.
• Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, caused by or resulting in its death.

I support the first one by the way, but I also don't think it makes any sense for positions to be rehashed. We had this conversation a few days ago; I think it's safe to say no one changed their mind. Let's just wait for the second subsection to be filled out. NW (Talk) 23:35, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone that wonders how the references break down to numbers that use/do not use viable or death, this is pretty close: Nine use the term viable. Of the others, 2 use age of gestation, 3 use "survive" and 1 somewhat uses that term, 2 use destroy or destruction, 1 uses death, and the rest use something other. Also, it should be noted that the definition did include the word "usually" at one time to include the fact that in a small percent of abortions the fetus is viable at the time it is aborted. Gandydancer (talk) 23:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• No. Without the word "usually", inserting "viable" would deny what millions of reliable sources say: late term abortions do rarely occur after viability, e.g. to save the life of the mother. But if we insert the word "usually" then the sentence becomes misleading because it would be just as accurate to say that most abortions occur before the second trimester; plus the sentence would not say what it is about abortion that makes it different from live birth. More generally, I could support changing "death" to "demise" but would oppose doing that without consensus. Everyone hating an aspect of an article (e.g. the word "death" or the entire lead sentence) sometimes doesn't justify changing it. Even if every editor at an article unanimously hates an aspect of the article, changing that aspect of the article may nevertheless be disruptive if there is no consensus about how to change it. Some editors may want to completely delete that aspect, whereas other editors might oppose deletion but disagree among themselves about what modification would improve the article. In such a circumstance, discuss rather than edit, at least if the hated aspect has been a stable or prominent feature of the article for a long time, or was previously supported by consensus.Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Both work: I was actually okay with "viable" in the lead if its clear this is a medical definition. But of course, my position is Wikipedia is a generalist encyclopedia, not a medical text, so this makes death preferential despite its negative emotional dynamic. - RoyBoy 00:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • • That's a possible compromise, which I believe you brought up before but ultimately ignored for some reason: Abortion is medically defined as ...viable. I could certainly live with that, and if enough people here are willing to set aside their the-article-must-be-100%-"right" position, we might to get this dispute resolved for now. NW (Talk) 01:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would add doing this glosses over what viability is legally, a bit of a "no no" for an encyclopedia seeking global scope. - RoyBoy 04:15, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Would support this aswell. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is livable. JJL (talk) 03:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I believe it's an excellent idea and I would strongly support it. Gandydancer (talk) 11:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• No. None of these 24 WP:RS define abortion as only before viability and some give accounts of third trimester post-viability abortions [emphasis added]:

Dictionaries

• 1. Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, (USA's most relied-upon dictionary) abortion: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus
• 2. MacMillan Dictionary, abortion: a medical operation in which a developing baby is removed from a woman’s body so that it is not born alive.
• 3. Collins English learner’s dictionary, abortion: a medical operation in which a pregnancy is deliberately ended and the baby is not born alive.
• 4. Cambridge University Dictionary of American English, abort: to end a pregnancy esp. by an operation before the baby is ready to be born.
• 5. Webster's New World Collegiate Dictionary, abortion: any deliberate procedure that removes, or induces the expulsion of, a living or dead embryo or fetus
• 6. Oxford World Dictionary, abortion: the deliberate termination of a human pregnancy, most often performed during the first 28 weeks
• 7. American Heritage Dictionary, abortion: Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the embryo or fetus.

Specialty Dictionaries

• 8. Merriam-Webster's Legal Dictionary, (online dictionary for "FindLaw For Legal Professionals"). abortion: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus
• 9. Webster's New World Law Dictionary, abortion: The intentional and artificial termination of a pregnancy that destroys an embryo or fetus.
• 10. Oxford Dictionary of Philosophy, Abortion: Termination of the life of a foetus, after conception but before birth.
• 11. American Heritage Science Dictionary, abortion: Induced termination of pregnancy, involving destruction of the embryo or fetus.

Secondary Legal Text

• 12. Gynaecology For Lawyers, abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death.

Medical Dictionaries/Encyclopedia

• 13. Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, (online dictionary for NIH's National Library of Medicine). abortion: the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus
• 14. American Heritage Medical Dictionary, abortion: Induced termination of a pregnancy with destruction of the fetus or embryo.
• 15. Gale Encyclopedia of Public Health, Abortion is a generic term for pregnancies that do not end in a livebirth or a stillbirth.
• 16. WebMD/MedicineNet, Abortion: In medicine, an abortion is the premature exit of the products of conception (the fetus, fetal membranes, and placenta) from the uterus. It is the loss of a pregnancy and does not refer to why that pregnancy was lost.

Secondary Medical Text

• 17. Williams Obstetrics, [Abortion] means induced pregnancy termination to destroy the fetus.
• 18. Laminaria, induced fetal demise and misoprostol in late abortion, Hern, International Journal of Gynecology & Obstetrics,Volume 75, Issue 3, December 2001, During a 9-year period, 1677 abortions were performed for patients whose pregnancies ranged from 18 through 34 menstrual weeks in an outpatient facility. Of these, 832 were performed by one physician. Techniques for performing all the abortions included induction of fetal demise by intrauterine fetal injection of digoxin and/or hyperosmolar urea, serial multiple laminaria treatment of the cervix, amniotomy, oxytocin induction of labor, and assisted delivery or surgical evacuation of the fetus and placenta. In the last 411 of the 832 patients whose abortions were performed by one physician, misoprostol was placed in the lower uterine segment following amniotomy in order to enhance labor induction, cervical ripening, and fetal expulsion. Results: Of the entire group of 1677 cases, the median gestational age was 22 menstrual weeks.
• 19. Misoprostol for intrauterine fetal death, R. Gómez Ponce de León, International Journal of Gynecology & Obstetrics,Volume 99, Issue 2, December 2007, The frequency of intrauterine fetal death (IUFD) with retained fetus varies, but is estimated to occur in 1% of all pregnancies. The vast majority of women will spontaneously labor and deliver within three weeks of the intrauterine death.
• 20. Digoxin to Facilitate Late Second-Trimester Abortion: A Randomized, Masked, Placebo-Controlled Trial, Jckson, Rebecca A. MD, Obstetrics & Gynecology, March 2001, Digoxin has been used to facilitate late second-trimester D&Es with the intent of decreasing procedure risks... Another advantage is that patients, clinicians, and staff might prefer to abort a dead fetus.
• 21. When Is Termination of Pregnancy during the Third Trimester Morally Justifiable?, Frank A. Chervenak, M.D., N Engl J Med 1984, We studied 10 cases involving fetuses with sonographically diagnosed anencephaly that were aborted during the third trimester.
• 22. Feticide during second- and third-trimester termination of pregnancy: opinions of health care professionals., Dommergues M., Fetal Diagn Ther. 2003 Mar-Apr, To study the opinions of professionals on feticide being performed as the first step of late termination of pregnancy.

Secondary Philosophy Text

• 23. Abortion and the Death of the Fetus, Steven L. Ross, Philosophy & Public Affairs, Vol. 11, No. 3, Summer, 1982 (cited 19 times by other authors) An abortion (i) terminates a pregnancy, ending the physical dependency relationship the fetus has to the mother, and (ii) terminates the life of the fetus, ending both its present functions as an organism and its ongoing development into a more complex one.

Secondary Human Biology Text

• 24. Human reproductive biology, 3rd. Ed., Richard Evan Jones, Elsvier Inc., Table of Contents... Chapter 15 Induced Abortion. Third Trimester Abortion.

74.5.176.81 (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that these are tertiary sources (and see also the discussion of dictionary defns. at Talk:Abortion/Archive_42#Dictionary_survey), and that many take pains to avoid the term 'death' that is in contention. The crux of the professional-quality secondary sources that turned the discussion to 'viable' may be found in the collapsed Extended content section at Talk:Abortion/Archive_42#Reboot:_Definition. JJL (talk) 03:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL: You mislead. First, the list of 9 sources you point us to includes 2 tertiary sources. Of these 9, only 4 mention viability in the definition for induced abortion. Of these four, 2 are tertiary sources. That means you have pointed us to only 2 secondary sources that define induced abortion as always before viability. Such deception makes your stock keep going down. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 03:51, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are more in the archives, but i didn't think it a fruitful activity to hunt them all down and link to them. As was pointed out earlier, the Notes section of the main article has more. JJL (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you don't think an actual viewing, analysis and discussion of all of the sources is fruitful, preciesly because the fruit of such objective inquiry is not to your liking. Your habit has been to state your opinion and then claim that you have no interest in the opinion of your fellow editors. Wikipedia policy is not (contrary to what you keep incorrectly insisting) to avoid discussion. You keep seeking to avoid any analysis of what you assert. Your stock just keeps going down. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 15:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

74, Would you mind collapsing your evidence section? - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 04:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You serious? :-)DMSBel (talk) 06:25, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should give the IP his due, if he can source like this on unrelated topics too, he will be a useful contributor to Wikipedia generally. DMSBel (talk) 06:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would mind. It is important to keep it expanded so objective information is available to juxtapose against some of the misinformation about sources in this section. Please let me know if any of the citations I have posted in this section are not accurate. 74.5.176.81 (talk) 05:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be OK if we added a citations sub-heading in this section and place them there? - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 05:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't want my contribution to the conversation changed or edited. Thanks. What is important to me, and will be to fair-minded editors who have not been involved, is to reckon with the avalanche of sources that DO NOT define induced abortion in terms of viability (and that DO define it terms of death/destruction). 74.5.176.81 (talk) 05:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@DMSBel I was only asking if they could be collapsed in-place for thread flow and readability. I was not asking that they be removed. - ArtifexMayhem (talk) 06:47, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, can the sections be separated? If it can be moved to new section just above with link from the IPs comment here then I have no objection, its not my contrib. though. Up to the IP. DMSBel (talk) 09:18, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No need to collapse an informative contribution. In fact I suggest we copy these into "note 1". -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 07:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, the discussion on sourcing need de-politicised. For definitional purposes limit all sources to those unassociated with political-advocacy groups or groups that have advocacy in their scope of mission. That would leave Medico-Legal, Medical, Philosophic, Legal and Encyclopedia/Dictionary. Anything else, or is that wide enough? DMSBel (talk) 08:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also, sourcing needs de-polarised so to speak, we don't have to pick between death and viable, unless there are political factors driving the discussion, which seems at times to be the case. If we could refrain from breaking up into camps, it might help. I apologise if any of my comments have tended to polarise the discussion. I don't object to the lede saying that "spontaneous abortions mostly occur before viability" if that is factually correct. It would not be intellectually honest though to deny that there are induced abortions performed right up to full term, and that abortions do result in the death of the fetus. For that reason my No above is in reference to any wording which suggests induced abortions occur only before viability. JJL might have had a point after all in regard to quantifiers, but I think that can be surmounted and both terms retained without advocacy. Not by definition strictly but by description. A formal definition can't possibly be sufficient. An extended defintion is needed, but it need not all be in one sentence. I need to give the matter more thought.62.254.133.139 (talk) User:DMSBel 14:54, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• No, it would be a flat out lie to claim all abortions occur before viability. NYyankees51 (talk) 16:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Third Trimester Abortion Clinic Website "Grace Medical Care is a private medical practice that performs late second and third trimester therapeutic termination of pregnancy procedures when fetal anomalies and/or genetic defects are found or to protect the health of the woman. Therapeutic abortion procedures end pregnancies that were originally wanted, but cannot be continued due to problems with the fetus or to protect the health of the woman."
  • Third Trimester Abortion Clinic Website "Yes, in some states, termination of pregnancy is allowed at any time during a woman's pregnancy] to protect her health or when the fetus is affected by a genetic defect or abnormality."
  • Third Trimester Abortion Clinic Website "Third Trimester Abortion. Four day outpatient procedure. Patients coming in for very late abortion - over 26 menstrual weeks' gestation - are almost always seeking services for termination of a desired pregnancy that has developed serious complications. The first step for third trimester patients is the same as for second trimester patients at 20 weeks or more. One of the main differences for third trimester patients having a pregnancy terminated for fetal anomaly is that they may wish to have an intact fetus that they can examine and hold as part of the grief process. For many of these patients, it is not a fetus - it's a baby. The woman and her family may request special procedures such as special religious ceremonies, genetic studies, formal autopsy, private cremation, or private burial."

71.3.232.238 (talk) 17:55, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your first two citations are to "Grace Medical Care", which is a highly questionable operation run by a rogue physician (see Philadelphia Inquirer, ABC News). The National Abortion Federation has repeatedly tried to shut down Grace's operator, saying: "His record is the most egregious one I know of in the field." ([30]). So to present these sites as if they represent anything other than a gross deviation from accepted practice is either ignorant or intentionally deceptive.

I haven't looked at the third source, but given the IP's track record and approach to sourcing, I'm not sure it's worth my time. But obviously, it describes third-trimester abortions as almost always performed for serious fetal anomalies, and thus presumably in cases where the fetus would not necessarily be viable. I guess it bothers me that every single assertion from this IP turns out to be misleading (at best) when subjected to a minute's worth of scrutiny, but whatever. MastCell ^Talk 18:17, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about the slain George Tiller, whose dedication to providing late-term abortions (including third trimester abortions on viable fetuses according to his own public statements on record) earned him praise and respect far and wide among abortion advocatcy groups such as NARAL? 71.3.232.238 (talk) 18:33, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These are Tiller's own words: "We have some experience with late terminations; about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years." 71.3.232.238 (talk) 18:52, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How about not changing the subject every time someone calls you out for deceptive use of sources? How about trying to find and represent the best available sources instead of treating this like a political rapid-response operation or a high-school debate club? How about being honest with your fellow editors? Where did you come up with the three sources listed above? Do you think your presentation of them was misleading in any way? MastCell ^Talk 18:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Masty: Please stop changing the subject every time I post verifiable information that undermines your editorial desires. Thanks.71.3.232.238 (talk)!

Masty: First, I will note that I very deliberately did not list these links as WP:RS that could be used to verify article content. If you notice, I have compiled a numbered list of WP:RS in the box above, and these links are not in it. Neverthless, these links are anecdotal support for the notion (of NYy51) that it is quite absurd to claim that there is no such thing as a post-viability abortion because we have clinics advertising them (and as many of us have noted repeatedly, more importanty as to the article content, we have WP:RS that has verified the practice of aborting viable fetuses). 71.3.232.238 (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Masty: If you do a simple google search and then ignore the opinion pieces and pro-life advocacy hits (as I always do), you find Grace Abortion Clinic on the first page of results. It is sad that some licensed abortion clinics are no better than back alley operations (such as Gosnell's fully licensed clinic in Philadelphia that turned out to be a butcher shop of horrors). You seem to know more about the misdeeds of Grace Abortion Clinic than I do (my view is that a licensed clinic is a licensed clinic and the reputation of such a clinic is not something I have to worry about when noting the existence of clinics that advertise third-trimester abortions). Thanks for bringing this wayward abortion provider to the attention of all of us editing this article. If you continue to the second page of google results, you find the site for Dr. Hern's clinic in Colorado, which is the third link I listed above. Do you have a problem with Dr. Hern? I think he enjoys a good reputation. Of course I haven't even mentioned the celebrated work of Dr. Carhart and Dr. Haskell. They also are on record in public statements about their commitment to continue providing post-viability abortions to women who want them. I am puzzled that this evidence of women's freedom to choose abortion disturb's you. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Masty: I think my conduct has been fair and honest and helpful to editors who are encountering new information that can assist in editing this article. Now, can you explain why your own refusal to acknowledge the avalanche of sources that undermine the notion that abortions only happen before viability is fair? Is that fair to your fellow editors? And is it fair to accuse an editor who has accurately posted over a hundred WP:RS on this topic of lacking integrity because you pick an alleged nit (that is not even a nit once subjected to scrutiny) from one or two of them? 71.3.232.238 (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. I don't get the same Google search results you're claiming, but then I suspect you're in a different filter bubble than I. Beyond that, let's agree to disagree. You seem to think I care about the wording of the lead sentence, which I don't. I do care about the general editing environment of this article, and I think you've been largely, if not solely, responsible for its complete degeneration into a mishmash of misleading arguments, cherry-picked sources, and agenda pushing. I take it you see nothing wrong with your approach to sourcing, so thank you for confirming that. MastCell ^Talk 20:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Come on MastCell, it doesn't matter how "reputable" these 3rd Trimester clinics are, they exist, that's the point. Perfectly valid to cite them as evidence that post viability abortions occur. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 19:36, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good call, Price! We should note in the main article that freedom to choose abortion has advanced to such a degree that there are abortion providers who actually advertise thrid-trimester abortion services on the internet. The clinic webpages themsleves are WP:RS for the fact that such advertisements exist. 71.3.232.238 (talk) 19:59, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give an agenda account an inch... MastCell ^Talk 20:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This Talk page desperately needs a referee, ruling comments (and editors) out as needed. JJL (talk) 02:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"...out as needed" - interesting comment. A facilitator is needed, not a referee. But this is an RFC, so comments as such are not ruled out generally, except if they are abusive or personal attacks. Lets try to not polarise this again by talking about religious right, etc. User:DMSBel62.254.133.139 (talk) 13:55, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes: The vast majority of medical and professional sourcing indicates this should be the lede description of the article. Dave Dial (talk) 00:46, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly object to your article edit that jammed "viable" back into the lead sentence, while falsely asserting in your edit summary that there is consensus here to do so. Your preferred outcome may prevail, but wouldn't it be best to prevail honestly, without tendentious editing and without trying to short-circuit the consensus-building process? Millions of reliable and professional sources (many of them cited above) refer to abortion after viability. Additionally, the Roe v. Wade decision stated: "After viability, the State may regulate, and even prohibit, abortion...." It's not our business here at at Wikipedia to push a definition that makes the US Supreme Court decision sound like ignorant gibberish (even if it imay in fact be ignorant gibberish). There's no reason why our lead cannot give both the usual definition and the viability-based definition. We can even replace "death" with "demise". But what we really should stop doing is changing the lonstanding consensus version before we form a new consensus about how to change it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:03, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "usual" definition is the one with 'viable' in it. JJL (talk) 14:26, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes. I've commented once or twice before, but again, I'll state that I support the version of the lead with viable in it. However, overall, I find this dispute to be rather trivial and it would be better for both sides to move on, instead of getting gridlocked over one sentence. Better sources use "viable".--EdwardZhao (talk) 14:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • For the record "medical" sources use viable, this doesn't make them "better" / "best" for an encyclopedia. - RoyBoy 00:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, it should be noted that if one looks at our sources, 2 out of 3 encyclopedias do use the word "viable" and the third uses "capable of independent survival", which is the meaning of viable. Gandydancer (talk) 01:06, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia should be accurate and reflective of the most common professional opinions. 'Viable' does that. JJL (talk) 01:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gandydancer encyclopedias use it awkwardly, its not that simple! "usually" is to be avoided in an article (as good practice), and is frankly unacceptable IMNSHO in a lead. Death is common JJL, it ain't popular, but its common; there's a difference. We don't use "usually" yet, but to properly define the topic we are suppose to, viability exceptions / ambiguity seems to force it ... assuming intellectual honesty. LOLz... made myself laugh on that one. - RoyBoy 01:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What exactly does "awkwardly" mean?NW (Talk) 02:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In this circumstance, that viable has no hope (by itself) of correctly defining the abortion topic. To do so, it needs ambiguity inserted to be correct and honest. I usually deem ambiguity in a lead, especially for a controversial lead, to be awkward (grammatically and intellectually)... however, biology seems to require it. But using a purely medical definition for an article that is much broader than a medical procedure is awkward (and dishonest) editorially. The IP's version below is decent: "Abortion is termination of gestation by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, caused by or resulting in its death, typically when it is not viable." It incorporates the goal of abortion (termination of the fetus) with the common (but not absolute) constraint of viability. That is an improved version in my view, perhaps is the true compromise we were seeking in 2006. - RoyBoy 21:01, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's very far from clear to me that "the goal of abortion [is] termination of the fetus". I believe--and the medical sources agree--that the goal is termination of the pregnancy. These are different goals. Certainly in the case of a life-threatening pregnancy, the woman may well desire a live delivery but choose to terminate the pregnancy to save her own life. An abortion ends a pregnancy. That's why it's done--so that the woman will no longer be pregnant. You think it kills the would-be child and as a by-product ends the state of pregnancy. I think it ends the pregnancy and that for a nonviable fetus this results in there not being a live birth. JJL (talk) 17:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Come on now! Why bother participating here if the goal isn't clear? Does political correctness require redefining the obvious, again (like with viable, or organism)? Don't tell me what I think -- unless you get it so wrong I get a chuckle after a long humid day -- thanks for that. I stick with reality: "I understand it ends a (one or more) fetus/embryo/blastocyst, this results in there not being a live birth for the abortus." Are you unclear on selective reduction, or just forgot about them?

As to your pro-life version... not bad, less editing to make it accurate: could-be child. I make no assumption that the fetus will be carried to term, viability, or even that the mother gravida wants it. That's her choice, not mine. "Kill" is technically okay (as a "living thing" dies), but less desirable than death; as "thing" can be interpreted as a detached object "being". I would find that more interesting to discuss (elsewhere), as living has been settled here dozens of times before we joined Wikipedia. - RoyBoy 23:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Uninvolved editors

• Yes - if the lead makes it clear this is the way "vast majority of medical and professional sourcing." It also might mention the minority view, covering all the bases. I personally never thought much about distinction despite 40 year obsession with topic and think it's better to be inclusive to avoid discussions ad nauseum like this evidently has been. CarolMooreDC (talk) 21:53, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not uninvolved, but may I ask if your Yes is to including "before viability"? Its just that at this point in the RFC it has become difficult to tell what people are supporting.DMSBel (talk) 22:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes We're not explicitly saying every aborted foetus is in-viable (e.g. the above-mentioned late abortion to save a mother's life) but with due weight, it is generally a true statement Jebus989^✰ 22:00, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• No I think it is misleading, essentially what a reader of the lead is left with is that an abortion that occurs once the fetus is viable is by definition not an abortion. It needs some type of qualifier, "usually before viability" "generally before viability" "in most cases before viability", but without the qualifier the statement is clearly wrong. Monty₈₄₅ 06:18, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly would be shocked if anyone came away with that idea Jebus989^✰ 09:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's how it reads, why there is an issue to be resolved, and why Britannica used "usually" in their definition. Unlike a medical text, we as a generalist encyclopedia do not have the luxury of presuming our readers are versed in what viability is biologically and legally, and that there is ambiguity from 21 weeks 6 days to 28 weeks gestation. PMID 11060525 - RoyBoy 21:12, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

...but unlike a physical textbook, we have the ability to internally link to Fetal viability for those few who may not be familiar with the concept. JJL (talk) 17:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly we can link death to its clear and easier to understand definition. Linking viable is good, but it remains too narrow of a definition for Wikipedia's purpose IMO. It's completely acceptable with "medically defined", but my preference is to define abortion clearly and inclusively. - RoyBoy 22:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• yes with the caveat that there are some procedures which are controversially done otherwise and the article lede should note its scope. The vast, vast majority of abortions are performed in this way. HominidMachinae (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We don't seem to be making much headway in seeing editors writing for the other side. One particularly blatant case is the above list of unlinked references, which 74...81 has prepared listing only those he considers to support one side, "the avalanche" as he puts it. I would challenge him to either prepare the corresponding list as a demonstration of good faith or support someone else in doing so. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't aware the writing for the opposition exercise was still on-going, there was not a lot of participation earlier, its also rather difficult to do when editors are not sure what other editors position is. But to be fair we are into a RFC (rather late but better than not having one and continuing to argue) and two proposals have been suggested for consideration. I think in hindsight we might have been better to set up two versions of the lede first sentence (or maybe even the first two sentences if that would not be too much) for consideration, but as it only occured to me after the RFC started I am as much to blame for not thinking of it sooner. I do think presenting the choice as one of "...before it is viable" versus "...caused by or resulting in its death" risks polarising positions too much. I am going to take a look at how discussion on this was conducted back in 2006, I am sure there is something to be learned. Both phrases are descriptive of the state of affairs in for instance the case of a spontaneous abortion of 6 week old fetus. Does that make sense? DMSBel (talk) 21:39, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After further reflection: Perhaps there might be a way out of the impasse via another route. Instead of a footnote on definitions of abortion, have a footnote about death and what dies, but retain the word in the lede? DMSBel (talk) 22:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By all means, I heartily support someone else in doing so. What makes you think I didn't? I want editors to have a plentiful and wide array of information. In fact, I actually invited people to post definitions a few sections above and no one supported me in that effort. I applaud your support for me and all the editors who want to have a wealth of WP:RS inform this article. Thank you! 71.3.232.238 (talk) 18:57, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm glad to hear that, though I had hoped you would actually engage in preparing an NPOV listing. Do I take it from the above reply that the two IPs (74...81 and 71...238) are both the same user? LeadSongDog come howl! 19:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Editing anonymously is certainly fair game. Doing so in order to deceive would not be. See wp:IPSOCK. I have no wish to know who you are, but if one uses multiple identities in editing the same topic, particularly a contentious one, one is required to be clear about doing that as a simple matter of honesty with one's fellow editors.

I am not moving the goalposts. I am encouraging editors to be the best contributors they can, which is to say ones who strive to fairly balance their contributions. I hope you will actively participate on both sides, as equally as you are able.

The new section was because the subject changed. See wp:TPG for explanation.LeadSongDog come howl! 20:06, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are infering something which is not the case. I posed a question at 18:49 above to user 74..., to which you replied as user 71... Either you were replying as the same person at a different IP or you were not. You should simply clarify that so I know if 74... has answered the question, and then we can move along. LeadSongDog come howl! 21:23, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this editor also 67.233.18.28? Gandydancer (talk) 22:48, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably, yes, since all of these IPs are registered to Embarq Corporation. Leaving aside the rather... distinctive style of this editor's posts, it's probably reasonable to treat IP editors with that registration as a single editor. Since the editor has had several IP's blocked, the question of evading scrutiny arguably arises, but it's probably not worth pressing since it's fairly easy to associate the IPs. If you're in doubt, you can run a WHOIS on the IP, either at the IP talk page or with standard online tools. MastCell ^Talk 23:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure these are the same editor, two computers in different locales would result in two IPs. Of course that could be one editor at work or a library then at home. I think most people know my own IP at least I sometimes sign my posts with both User:DMSBel and my IP if I have forgotten to login. My IP is 62.254.133.139 and I'm in the UK. IP 71... was replying to MastCell and his earlier remark. Beyond that I have no idea if it is the same editor. Assume bad faith and a lot of editors can look alike at times!! How do we know the editor has had several IPs blocked when we don't know for sure this is one editor? And EMBARQ is an exchange carrier serving 18 US States! Doesn't really narrow it down much! Have you run a WHOIS? DMSBel (talk) 23:44, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Two Embarq IPs editing, with identical POV and text style, one while the other was blocked. That's block evasion. Guy (Help!) 19:31, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! But only if he/she were legitimately blocked, and had done something wrong first of all. Not sure I could say I saw a any similiarity in text style. Disagreement is not disruption. Using two computers is not doing anything wrong. POV or not the IP made a valuable contrib to the sourcing. Poor Block. DMSBel (talk) 01:18, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The sheer volume of edits and text can be seen as tendentious editing. Continuing with the discussion despite an announced block is evasion, the details become moot at that point. While not required by any means, when there is an extensive discussion ongoing, it becomes more important to have attribution with user accounts to PointsOV. - RoyBoy 21:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:RS that editors have cited confirm several things, which are not actually in opposition to one another but seem to be needlessly confusing the discussion because they are not being addressed as a whole, but rather as individual elements. This is an attempt to walk through these issues and then propose a lead sentence that factors them in and gives the most significant ones due weight.

• 1. Spontaneous Abortion always involves a non-viable fetus.
• 2. Induced Abortion usually involves a non-viable fetus, but sometimes involves a viable fetus.
  • • • Background (this is offered to explain why there is so much confusion among our pool of editors, not as proof of anything): Until the last 4 decades, the primary meaning of abortion was the spontaneous kind. Thus, the traditional standard definition of the naked word "abortion" included "before viability" because it always referred to miscarriage. At the same time, English speakers would often use "illegal abortion" if they meant "induced abortion", and we can see remnants of that in some dictionary/encyclopedia definitions. Of course, now this has reversed, and the naked word "abortion" normally means induced abortion. Meanwhile, even as abortion was legalized, the definitions for abortion continued to refer to "viability" because until recently, it was typically illegal to abort a viable fetus. Such definitions could give a broad definition that encompassed spontaneous and induced abortion because in both cases the fetus was not viable (and assuming these definitions did not attempt to define a then-illegal post-viability abortion). Some of the problem we have today is that the laws have changed and some definitions contain archaic formulations that used to be true, but which have been superseded as the medical profession and the law have embraced late term abortion as a licit procedure.
• 3. "Before viability" and "not viable" are not necessarily the same thing: a fetus of viable age can be spontaneously expelled (thus naturally not viable), and a viable fetus can be rendered non-viable via induced feticide.
• 4. Abortion always involves the death of a fetus/embryo. Spontaneous death can trigger a spontaneous abortion. And an induced abortion can begin with an induced feticide. Often the fetus is literally dismembered as it is removed from the uterus piece by piece, which of course kills the fetus. This is basic modern medicine. In any event, a pregnancy either continues to develop and results in live birth, or else a pregnancy does not continue to develop and the fetus stops developing and dies and exits the uterus. Sometimes these events are spontaneous and sometimes they are induced. But in every pregnancy, the fetus either lives and is born, or dies and is an abortion. The word death as used in obstetrics, fetology or biology does NOT confer personhood status to the fetus. Post mortems {autopsies) are conducted on fetuses from induced abortions; such exams are only done on dead bodies, but this also does not confer personhood status. The use of the pronoun "it" is indicative that the death involved is not being afforded the weight given to a person, as a person would be referred to as "him or her".
• 5. Pregnancy very often terminates in live birth. "Termination of pregnancy" is not limited to induced or spontaneous abortion.
• 6. Pregnancy does not always terminate when a fetus is aborted. This is becoming more and more common as women carrying multiple fetuses will frequently abort one or more of them in order to increase the chances that the surviving fetus will be healthy.

The following definition factors in these objective facts, and I invite people to state precisely what they think is good or bad about it:

Abortion is termination of gestation by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, caused by or resulting in its death, typically when it is not viable.

74.5.176.81 (talk) 22:42, 11 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another version: Abortion is a gestation that results in a dead fetus; typically an abortion involves a non-viable fetus and ends a pregnancy.74.5.176.81 (talk) 00:35, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I support your first version. The second version's wording is a bit ambiguous: "typicaly an abortion... ends a pregnancy". So sometimes the woman is still pregnant after the abortion?--EdwardZhao (talk) 14:16, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, read #6. Still, I prefer the first one.--EdwardZhao (talk) 14:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you clarify, what is "first one" and why the preference? Thanks. - RoyBoy 21:36, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence of the article is important, so it's worthwhile getting it right. Instead of fighting about which set of reliable sources to use, why not just give to the readers a full picture, without trying to filter it for them?

From 2006 to 2011 the lead sentence said: "Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, caused by or resulting in its death." I propose changing it to: "Abortion is the intentional or unintentional loss of a pregnancy, although some sources do not characterize such a loss as an abortion if the fetus was viable, i.e. sufficiently developed to have survived after birth." ""Abortion is the induced or spontaneous loss of a pregnancy, although abortion may be distinguished from loss of a fetus that was sufficiently developed to have survived after birth."

• Support as proposer. Please do not install this sentence without consensus to change the 2006-2011 version (including consensus how to change it)..Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:57, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Neutral it might be possible to work with this...I am open-minded. It reads a bit awkwardly as phrased. Would a link to Fetal viability be enough to replace the "i.e...." part? JJL (talk) 16:56, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first sentence probably should be self-explanatory, without making the reader go somewhere else to figure out what the heck it means. But, maybe we could use a piped link: "Abortion is the intentional or unintentional loss of a pregnancy, although some sources do not characterize such a loss as an abortion if the fetus was sufficiently developed to have survived after birth."Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:05, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Needs workAcceptable. Unless there's a third option, "intentional or unintentional" adds no semantic value to the statement. I would either just delete the clause or else, if the desired is to enumerate the possibilities, say it plainly as "induced or spontaneous". I would prefer just deleting the clause. Similarly, rather than pronounce on "viability", I think we should exercise similar wisdom, perhaps along the lines of "although [some/many/a few/certain] [sources/authorities/jurisdictions] distinguish abortion from loss of a fetus which was was sufficiently developed to have survived after birth." LeadSongDog come howl! 17:27, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Without "induced" it sounds very passive.Anythingyouwant (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Much better. Of course Abortion should be bolded. Might also want to wikilink induced and spontaneous, or that could be left for later in the lede.LeadSongDog come howl! 18:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Now preferable to the earlier non-consensus-"consensus" versions, despite minor residual issues.LeadSongDog come howl! 21:43, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Needs work. Leaves open the question of what the termination of a viable fetus is called by these sources. Also a bit long winded. Is not "Abortion is the loss of a pregnancy or just the loss of a fetus that was sufficiently developed to have survived after birth." semantically equivalent? Never a fan of padding such as "characterised". -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 18:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Characterised" is already gone. Would you prefer to formulate an explicit distinction of feticide? LeadSongDog come howl! 18:14, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fetal death and stillbirth can all occur after viability (or before viability) without feticide (which likewise can occur before or after viability).Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:22, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I find it concise and well-worded without being overly vague. It is far better than the preceding alternatives, or the crossed-out text. As noted, what constitutes "viable" is left open. It might be better to explicitly state what it is distinguished from (i.e. miscarriage or stillbirth) in a subordinate clause or omit it entirely. DigitalHoodoo (talk) 18:09, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Giving readers the whole picture is indeed a good idea. Well written.--EdwardZhao (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support give readers the whole picture. However "...loss of a pregnancy..." is not the best phraseology, it seems to my mind to assume non-intentionality, which is fine in reference to spontaneous abortion, but not induced. It might perhaps be better not to define Abortion primarily in reference to pregnancy, but rather termination of pregnancy as the result of an abortion which is the expulsion or removal of the embryo/fetus from the womb/uterus, either spontaneous (Miscarriage), or artificially induced. Reference to viability is not necessary to a formal definition, which is why there was nothing strictly wrong with the earlier version (of 8 June 2011). What I find more objectionable is the manner in which advancing a new consensus has been undertaken. How for instance will any new consensus withstand a simple majority vote to overturn it?. If that is how a new consensus is established what is to stop us having this same discussion 2 months from now? Issues with the lede should be addressed but not by ignoring previous discussion. DMSBel (talk) 19:40, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Doesn't anyone actually remember having read wp:CONSENSUS anymore? Votes have little to nothing to do with it. A workable result should so far as possible address all cogently expressed policy based issues.LeadSongDog come howl! 01:45, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, I agree re. votes per se. However I didn't ask for a vote, but a RFC. An interesting issue arose (re internet filters/bubbles). Also no one is proposing a version of lede first sentence (LFS from now on in my posts) be based on the result of this in isolation. It is a way of facilitating discussion. Things do tend to turn into votes on wikipedia rather easily. Perhaps you will revert to previous consensus once protection is lifted, addressing the policy based issue of a non-consensus (straw poll based) version of the LFS. A {disputed - discuss} inline tag should have been added before protection too. User:DMSBel 62.254.133.139 (talk) 10:33, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that happening, as the revert cycle is pointless at this stage, now that we're actually talking. I'll continue trying to find a wording on which we can agree here on the talkpage instead. As to adding that tag, it just sounds like a way to get wp:Too many cooks. Let's try and keep our eyes on the ball. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Needs work. The sentence says that abortion "may be distinguished from" termination of a viable fetus, but doesn't say how. It just leaves the reader hanging without an explanation. Is this referring to stillbirth, miscarriage, infanticide? And why does it say "may be"? Are there cases where it is not distinguished? What's wrong with the current wording which seems more clear and concise: "Abortion is ... the termination of a pregnancy ... before it is viable." Kaldari (talk) 20:18, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, there are many cases where it is not distinguished. For example, the Roe v. Wade decision stated: "After viability, the State may regulate, and even prohibit, abortion...." That's inconsistent with the present edit-locked lead sentence, which is the result of edit-warring more than anything else. Numerous reliable sources define and use the term "abortion" with reference to abortions both before and after viability (e.g. see sources cited in the preceding RFC). Yes, lead sentences often leave unanswered questions, and the rest of the article can help answer them. In fact, the more inquisitive a lead sentence makes the reader, the better the lead sentence is, I think. Anyway, the present edit-locked lead sentence also leaves the reader wondering what to call fetal loss after viability, right?Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:33, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Anythingyouwant. Basically my view is that we are not restricted to a one sentence definition, and that an extended defn. will serve the reader better. The lede has to introduce and disambiguate. Initially between spontaneous and induced then further in disambiguation of induced (elective without therapeutic factors / elective with therapeutic factors). Neither expulsion/removal of the fetus from the uterus, nor termination of pregnancy is abortion, any definition has to include the sine qua non which differentiates an abortion from a delivery/live birth, and that is fetal death. DMSBel (talk) 23:44, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So why is this section titled "Give readers the full picture" if you're wanting to give them a confusing partial picture? If we're not going to explain the distinction until later in the article, why are we mentioning it in the lead at all? Why not "Abortion is the induced or spontaneous loss of a pregnancy, caused by or resulting in the death of the fetus."? Kaldari (talk) 18:58, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Me? I did not start the section. I have no problem, except with "loss", with that as a basic defn. It seems straightforward. But I wasn't arguing there was anything wrong with the earlier lede with the wording "...caused or resulting in its death". What I was saying but perhaps did not make clear enough is that expulsion or removal of the fetus in itself is not the sine qua non not that it was never part of an abortion. Loss of pregnancy might end in resorption of the embryo I am told. So spontaneous abortion sometimes ends in fetal death and resorption. Both delivery and abortion involve the expulsion or removal of the fetus from the womb. Both delivery and abortion bring the pregnancy to an end - a woman is no longer pregnant after she gives birth. Only abortion results in or is caused by the death of the fetus. To my knowledge nobody was saying the lede doesn't mention resorption. Nobody had a issue with that. "...caused by or resulting in its death" is logically contingent and therefore has to be part of the definition. Right? DMSBel (talk) 23:00, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The article has to start with something, and our house style puts the article's topic in that place. We can and should adopt the middle ground so this article can move ahead instead of remaining perpetually debating one sentence. The first sentence is not the entire lede. A subsequent sentence, even one within the lede, can serve to invite the reader into more detailled discussion in the article body. How about we start a separate discussion of what such a "subsequent lede part" might need to address so that it doesn't muddle the initial sentence discussion?LeadSongDog come howl! 20:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it would help if someone explained what two sides we're trying to find the "middle ground" for. Sorry I haven't been following the full debate previously. Kaldari (talk) 21:16, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaldari. You asked why not "Abortion is the induced or spontaneous loss of a pregnancy, caused by or resulting in the death of the fetus."? That would be fine with me, except that many editors seem to want the lead sentence to mention that there is no such thing as abortion after viability. I emphatically do not want to give anyone a confusing or partial picture. Sometimes a word has more than one meaning. Hence dictionaries often list more than one meaning for a single word. Outside the medical profession, the word "abortion" is often used without regard to whether the fetus is viable (which is how you seem to be using the word "abortion" Kaldari). The current edit-locked lead is entirely partial to the technical viability-related medical definition, and is frequently disregarded even in medical literature, which often discusses "late term abortion" after viability. Medical definitions are sometimes revised for non-medical reasons; e.g. see Beginning of pregnancy controversy for a definitional change to make the word "abortion" apply to fewer procedures. In any event, the partial and confusing thing to do here would be to exclude and demote the definition used in the legal profession and in the layman's context. I would have no objection if you want to explain later in the article which contexts favor the pre-viability limitation, and also no objection to inserting your proposed lead sentence. I do not know why the lead sentence now mentions that viability limitation without explaining anywhere in the article why that definitional limitation was adopted, or by whom, or when. Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:20, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to your last statement: Do you have sources that talk about that issue? I can give you an answer if you want, but I would be talking out of my ass. So would, I suspect, basically everyone else here. NW (Talk) 20:33, 14 July 2011

I said, "I do not know why the lead sentence now mentions that viability limitation without explaining anywhere in the article why that definitional limitation was adopted, or by whom, or when." In other words, if this viability-definition-of-abortion were really so notable or prominent as to completely eclipse every other definition of the word "abortion", wouldn't you be able to cite a source that explains the rationale for it? For example, why make the Roe v. Wade decision's use of the word "abortion" sound like ignorant gibberish, without referring to any sources that explain why doing so is important or desirable? Or explaining why the usual definition in non-medical sources is undesirable, or explaining why all of the medical sources that discuss late term abortions (after viability) are somehow incorrect when they use the word "abortion"? Why are some editors insisting that this article take such a narrow approach when we can instead be more inclusive and informative? No one has cited any sources that explain why, nor does this article explain anywhere what the various words are that we're supposed to use for fetal loss after viability (e.g. stillbirth versus feticide, et cetera). People seem to want to just jam this word "viable" into the lead sentence of the article without being able to explain in the article why the longstanding definition is no longer politically correct and should be discarded.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Due to persistent and wilful block evasion our anonymous friend may consider himself banned. This page is semiprotected for one week and that can be reimposed as necessary, or anyone here is free to revert on sight edits by the anon after semiprotection expires. Guy (Help!) 19:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to post this, before Guy made his post above, and deleted content from the page. I don't see anyone questioning his (NWs) integrity. However viability simply has no bearing on a definition of abortion, because abortions are performed well into viability, as well as before. I am rather surprised some editors do not grasp this. You can define abortion without reference to viability at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with numbers or percentages before and after when we are talking about a definition. The only thing that can prevent someone from understanding this is a cognitive bias of some sort. When it comes to the actual article, numbers/ percentages etc have a place. The procedure which results in the termination of a pregnancy and, to use Williams Obstetrics definition: "..destroys a fetus", is an abortion at any stage of pregnancy, first, second, third trimester. If fetal death was not induced in advance, or a result of the procedure of removal, the fetus would still be alive. For thought: consider that medicine has moved away from a cardio-respiratory diagnosis of death to a neuro-centric one. Does that indicate life is currently associated with brain activity rather than heart beat or breathing? DMSBel (talk) 19:43, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

People are entirely welcome to discuss things here and come to whatever decision they please, but the anon has forfeit his right to have his voice heard due to the disruptive way he has conducted himself, followed by serial block-evasion. Frankly, his input had pretty much descended to trolling anyway - "anything as long as it says <red>DEATH</red>. Guy (Help!) 20:54, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Posting comments and sources is being disruptive? How exactly? DMSBel (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So we have two, maybe three IPs arguing along the same line as several editors here. And those IPs are connected through EMBARQ. That means across 18 US States, there are at least 3 people with the same view regarding fetal life, and abortion. Shock! How did they escape. Do they not have a television? Do they not read newspapers? Yikes, what else do they know! Wikipedia Hive Mind Status Yellow: Unassimilatable editors blocked. Returning to normal function! DMSBel (talk) 21:52, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These are clearly IPs belonging to one editor. Aside from the shared ISP, the content/tone of their posts is consistent and unmistakable. There's both a policy basis and established precedent to treat these as a single editor, and to be honest, I think anyone arguing otherwise is really grasping at straws. MastCell ^Talk 23:25, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is an established precedent to treat these as a single editor? No there isn't! You ran a WHOIS I take it? Has any of the IPs stated the other IPs are different editors? If not then they have not evaded scrutiny, or been deceptive. If they have it still has to be proven it is not two different editors. That takes a lot more evidence than "they sound the same to me" or "they both use EMBARQ". There is nothing wrong with logging in under more than one IP. You can't be blocked for using two computers. Its not a crime. If this is one editor why should they tell you or me they use two different IPs? Perphaps if it is one editor they think its obvious and there is no need to even say. I think its better to say of course. But deception means more than just using two accounts. It means saying another account is not yours when it is. DMSBel (talk) 00:29, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Deskana said it best many a time ago: Two different, totally unique people with virtually identical views and virtually identical names editing the same article at the same time, and backing each other up? I started to run a checkuser, but then gave up when I realised that I could see a thousand dancing hamsters on the checkuser results and still think they were sockpuppets, or at the very least, meatpuppets.

The user was not blocked for using more than one IP, at least not initially. They were blocked for disruptive editing. And then they evaded their block. That's automatic grounds for resetting and lengthening the block. NW (Talk) 02:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since being reminded not to open new talk sections the IP had been compliant. The semiprotection is therefore unneeded and should be lifted. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 06:58, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree if there was actually any disruptive editing in the first place, it was opening a few new sections in a row. As the IP did not repeat that, I fail to see what the blocks were placed in regard to. The semi-protection is not needed and was far too drastic a measure. Also the block / ban placed on this IP has no duration or extent mentioned. How are they to know how long it is for, what it covers. This was an improper sanction. There should be oversight/supervision on the Admin who made it. DMSBel (talk) 11:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This account(s) was disruptive and I am pleased to see that we can now have a less disjointed conversation. As an aside, I'm traveling and will have difficulty replying until Monday evening. JJL (talk) 18:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming for the moment the account holder is one editor who caused some minor annoyance by opening a few new sections in a row, that is not disruption. Oh! they also disagreed with a couple of other editors in the course of the discussion. I would not speak in defence of an editor who engaged in deliberately disruptive editing. The IP/IPs has a POV, so do most editors here. Having a POV is not having an agenda. Even having a strong POV is not having an agenda. Disagreement need not be disruptive in a discussion, in fact it can be quite helpful. However some articles simply have to accomodate those different views, in the best way possible if they are supported by reliable, verifiable sourcing, cf CarolMooreDCs comment earlier in the RFC. The semi-protection of the talk page is more disruptive than anything the IP did. Some editors are simply going to have to either work on other articles or learn to collaborate with other editors. Unless there is advocacy in the lede, I am not sure what it is we are discussing. Unfortunately I have not been able to ascertain what was being advocated by inclusion of the phrase "caused by or resulting in its death", and why we are having such a protracted discussion on this. I welcome the IP/IPs back to the discussion once their block is lifted - has the duration/scope been clarified yet? DMSBel (talk) 20:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

DMSBel, you say that some editors should either leave or learn to collaborate with others. So how can it be that after all this time you still "have not been able to ascertain what was being advocated by inclusion of the phrase "caused by or resulting in its death", and why we are having such a protracted discussion on this." I was apparently able to express your POV, how can it be that after all this time you still have no idea what mine is? Gandydancer (talk) 10:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What makes you think I was refering to you Gandydancer. I asked the editor who made the advocacy claim about it several times. They have not given a plain answer. Your comment doesn't make a lot of sense. DMSBel (talk) 17:00, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that your requests were buried in the numerous threads and dozens of edits added to this talk page every day. Whom are you asking, and what is the question? MastCell ^Talk 19:58, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can answer that. He was asking JJL and the question is why is he advocating against the phrase "caused by or resulting in its death". (Ignoring, of course, the fact that all those on "our side" are "advocating" against it as well.) Gandydancer (talk) 20:25, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I did ask JJL, you are correct up to that point in your comment. What I asked him is "what is being advocated?". I really cannot work out what JJL is saying at times, the same with you Gandydancer.

So I will again ask DMSBel, how can it be that after all this time you still do not have any idea why JJL, and I, and the others are arguing against using the term death in the definition when I, and I assume the others since they did not post to the contrary, seem to understand your point of view? Gandydancer (talk) 22:03, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That makes little sense, repeating it won't make it any clearer, if you understand my comments then I assume I have made them clear enough for you to understand. Are you saying that your ability to understand me means your own comments and POV is equally clear to me? How would that follow, especially when you said at one point in the discussion you had "changed your mind, for now". DMSBel (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you were really reading my posts rather than skimming them for something to argue about you would know that in that post when I said, "...changed my mind...for now..." I was discussing my suggestion re the definition I had suggested which was, "Most major medical texts define abortion as...". Well, clearly there is a problem when you and several others still have no idea why those that object to using the word death in the definition are objecting to it. Gandydancer (talk) 15:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gandydancer, please quit with the assumptions of stupidity on everybody elses' part. We all know what your POV is and where you're coming from, since you're admitted that you don't like to say the fetus is alive prior to, and dies during, an abortion purely because some on the "christian right" use the same language. IOW your refusal to accept the death of an aborted fetus is, contrary to the science (i.e. the facts), purely due to advocating a position. Which is, of course, prohibited. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 19:45, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well of course you could provide my post where I made that statement, but knowing that it is not available I would say that you just proved my point. Gandydancer (talk) 15:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, you just proved my point about POV pushing. -- cheers, Michael C. Price ^talk 15:52, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose death I believe that Wikipedia policy obliges editors to avoid personal opinions and use information from only the best available sources. For a small group of editors to stray so far from the references and completely change the definition of abortion to one that endorses the belief that life begins at conception should not be acceptable. Gandydancer (talk) 15:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes Our references chose to avoid using the term death in their definition because it suggests life begins at the moment of conception, a concept not held by all. Should Wikipedia decide to ignore their wisdom and rather use a minority definition preferred by only a segment of society, most notably the Christian Right in the U.S., we are entering the dangerous waters of political bias. Gandydancer (talk) 11:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC) Gandydancer (talk) 16:06, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They seem to avoid death not because of suggesting life, or some manufactured bio-ethical quandary, but because viable simply fits their context/setting better. As a result, it doesn't make them the "best" sources for an encyclopedia. - RoyBoy 20:45, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What are the "best" sources? Gandydancer (talk) 21:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

None of them are best, they all have their good and bad aspects. JJL has a good bead on it, though I would strike "professional" from it, as it implies medical defs should always take precedent. I concur they should (and do) mostly take precedent, but its not universally applicable. Simplistic to see it that way, as many of us did in the early 2000's. - RoyBoy 22:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For defintions - dictionaries are best IMHO. Also can someone explain to me the difference between "best" sources and best sources Are the quotes just meant to indicate there is not unanimous agreement which are best?. DMSBel (talk) 01:08, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Professional, peer-reviewed, widely used secondary sources are generally best. Those sources are near-unanimous in their use of 'viability' in the defn. JJL (talk) 17:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain why for a definition they are better than medical dictionaries? DMSBel (talk) 20:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:RS#Some_types_of_sources for more information on this. JJL (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I can see from that and some other sections that secondary and to a lesser extent tertiary sources are prefered over primary sources for detailed discussion. It doesn't indicate whether dictionaries are less preferable for definitions. DMSBel (talk) 21:52, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Williams Obstetrics does not use viability in its defn.[[31]] Yet I am told it is regarded by at least one other editor as a gold standard reference work. DMSBel (talk) 21:16, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK. JJL (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If 'viable' fits the context/setting in which abortions are performed--the medical context/setting--then that make a pretty strong case for using it. An encyclopedia should be accurate. Using 'viable' accurately reflects what this technical term's technical meaning is. That doesn't limit our ability to discuss social/cultural/religious reaction to it later. Some people still think mental illness is occasionally caused by demonic possession and should be treated by exorcism--but I'd still use what the DSM says rather than putting it in a broader context. JJL (talk) 17:25, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we are to avoid overly-technical terms, if we can use plain language? But the issue is still not with viable, its with "before it is viable". Abortions take place both before and after viability therefore we can define abortion without necessary reference to viability.DMSBel (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Because we know better than virtually the entire medical community? JJL (talk) 03:43, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No. Because abortions take place both before and after viability.[[32]] DMSBel (talk) 21:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this still disputed, by whom exactly? - RoyBoy 23:50, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you expand on this question--I remember some discussion of it but not the whole context. JJL (talk) 03:44, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes on the grounds that therapeutic refers to factors, and the source article entitled Elective Abortion[[33]] subsumes those abortions done in view of medical indications under elective abortion and states abortions performed for medical indications (ie therapeutic factors) are considered to be elective by abortion providers. It also states that therapeutic abortion for maternal indications is difficult to define:

The ability to define therapeutic abortion performed for maternal indications is difficult because of the subjective nature of decisions made about potential morbidity and mortality in pregnant women.

Most providers consider all terminations to be elective, or a voluntary decision made by the patient herself. There are medical factors both maternal and fetal that contribute to the decision. These factors have been termed therapeutic abortion...

Stating induced abortions are either therapeutic or elective, basically means an abortion performed for medical indications is not elective (volitional), which contradicts the source. Elective abortions however may be with or without medical indications. There are factors influencing the decision, and these factors may or may not be therapeutic. DMSBel (talk) 20:56, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion may be suffering from wp:ENGVAR culture-clash. "Elective surgery" seems to be used in some places only to indicate volition on whether to do it, but elsewhere it is more used for when to do it (as contrasted to "Urgent surgery" or "Emergency surgery"). [34] LeadSongDog come howl! 21:50, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No this is about elective in the sense of volitional/chosen, not in a surgical sense.DMSBel (talk) 21:55, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The source is a bit muddled. In the US, all medical procedures are voluntary; regardless of need. The final decision is always made by the patient (assuming the patient is not incapacitated). Adding the source used in Abortion:Induced might help...

"Reasons for procuring induced abortions are typically characterized as either therapeutic or elective. An abortion is medically referred to as a therapeutic abortion when it is performed to save the life of the pregnant woman; prevent harm to the woman's physical or mental health... An abortion is referred to as an elective or voluntary abortion when it is performed at the request of the woman for non-medical reasons." [35]

- ArtifexMayhem (talk) 01:00, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure the source is to blame. "reasons ... are typically charactised as therapeutic or non-therapeutic" might perhaps be better wording, but regardless of the reasons for an induced abortion, the decision is made by the patient. For that reason I think it is clearer to disambiguate induced abortion as either elective without medical indications, or elective with medical indications, instead of refering two catagories of abortion - therapeutic or elective, when therapeutic properly refers to factorsDMSBel (talk) 01:54, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In light of this discussion, is the question whether or not to use both the terms 'therapeutic' and 'elective'? They seem to be widely enough used that we should indicate how they are typically used at some point in the article. JJL (talk) 17:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to gauge interest in the options we have available, and see if any progress has been made. You are encouraged to support multiple options (with tweaks you specify), please don't oppose any. Reserve detailed comments for the comment sub-section. Versions are in approximate chronological order, if I missed a contender go ahead and add it. - RoyBoy 01:53, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

2006-2011 death consensus

“

Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion of a fetus or embryo from the uterus, resulting in or caused by its death.

”

Support

• This would be okay, but I would prefer to change "death" to "demise". The word "death" has different connotations, so "demise" is not merely a euphemism. "Destruction" would be okay too. Anyway, per WP:Consensus this version should not have been, and should not be, changed without consensus how to change it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support this version in the main, but wonder if the following would be an improvement: "Abortion is the removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus from the uterus, during pregnancy, resulting in or caused by its death."DMSBel (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also like to submit the following which I believe answers an earlier question "can an embryo die?" - "Progesterone produces its effects by stimulating progesterone receptors in the womb, ovaries and elsewhere. Mifepristone reversibly competes with progesterone at these progesterone receptors and blocks its effects. This results in the death of the embryo because its nutrition is cut off and its attachment to the lining of the womb is loosened. The blocking of progesterone receptors also causes a profound fall in chorionic gonadotrophin produced in the womb by the developing embryo. This causes the corpus lureum in the ovary to shrink and cut off the supply of progesterone, thus adding to the direct anti-progesterone effects of mifepristone. The changes triggered in the lining of the womb (endometrium) result in the release of prostaglandins which further add to the effects of mifepristone, resulting in the expulsion of the embryo through its loosening from the endometrium, increased contractions of the womb and softening and opening of the neck of the womb (cervix). In other words, it causes an abortion." emphasis mine (Mifepristone) Medicines - A Guide for Everyone : Peter Parish, page 495 DMSBel (talk) 23:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• NYyankees51 (talk) 17:04, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

viable version

“

Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before it is viable.

”

Support

• This is okay only if "before it is viable" changes to "other than by a live birth". We should not deny there is such a thing as abortion of a viable fetus, given that many reliable sources say there is such a thing..Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:11, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as this is the definition of the term. JJL (talk) 13:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support however, I have no problem including the phrase "usually before it is viable". Gandydancer (talk) 00:12, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

current viable version

“

Abortion is medically defined as the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo usually before it is viable.

”

Support

• This would be okay, but only with a few tweaks. Get rid of the word "medically". Abortion also has legal, moral, political, historical, cultural, and many other dimensions, and is certainly not merely a medical term. Also, no source defines it as "usually" occurring before viability (not even Britannica), and anyway, if it's after viability, this definition incorrectly encompasses birth. So, change "usually before it is viable" to "other than by live birth".Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:42, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, as I previously said.--EdwardZhao (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support but it should be without either 'medically' or 'usually' as 'usually' doesn't generally occur in the medical defns. JJL (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

death/viable combination

“

Abortion is the termination of gestation by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, caused by or resulting in its death, typically when it is not viable.

”

Support

• RoyBoy 01:53, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• This would be okay, but only if you change "typically when it is not viable" to "typically legal when it is not viable". Abortion typically occurs when it is not yet the second trimester, months before viability.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. This one is fine too, although its a bit long/wordy.--EdwardZhao (talk) 15:13, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

destroy/viable combination

“

Abortion is the termination of gestation by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, caused by or resulting in its destruction, typically when it is not viable.

”

Support

• This would be okay, but only if you change "typically when it it not viable" to "typically legal when it is not viable". Abortion typically occurs when it is not yet the second trimester, months before viability.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Again fine, but a bit wordy. --EdwardZhao (talk) 15:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the two major definitions

“

Abortion is the induced or spontaneous loss of a pregnancy, although abortion may be distinguished from loss of a fetus that was sufficiently developed to have survived after birth.

”

Support

• This gives both major definitions. The first allows that abortion is possible after viability. The second doesn't. This proposal had considerable support previously.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:08, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I think this is the best version.--EdwardZhao (talk) 15:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support though not preferred. JJL (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

loss with medical clarification

“

Abortion is a loss of a pregnancy, involving destruction of a fetus or embryo, although medically the term "abortion" does not usually apply if the fetus has become viable.

”

Support

• Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:21, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support this could be worked with. JJL (talk) 13:55, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Agree with JJL. (moved my support from destroy/viable to here) - RoyBoy 00:14, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"desmise" as a noun is defined as: "A person's death." Not exactly avoiding the pitfalls some see in death. - RoyBoy 03:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, the connotations are different. But "destruction" would be fine instead. You're okay with using the word "destruction", right?Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, works as well as death. Passed over in 2006, because of violent connotations? Unsure. - RoyBoy 04:11, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

The "two major definitions" option, by using "birth", appears to define abortion by what its not. - RoyBoy 03:22, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any definition that says the fetus is not yet viable defines abortion by what it's not. That's how a lot of reliable sources do it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:32, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

... and they get it wrong (for an encyclopedia) to boot. :") RoyBoy 03:37, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

You should not define something by what it is not, this was firmly established in 2006 and is noted several times in Wikipolicy. "Medically" is needed (in my view) because this definition is narrowly situated in medical sources and context. If you want a broader definition (to encompass the abortion topic), you may need to support another option. - RoyBoy 03:17, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Saying the fetus is not viable ("before it is viable") defines abortion by what it is not. Please link the Wikipolicy.Anythingyouwant (talk) 03:43, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary#Good_definitions. - RoyBoy 04:07, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean the part about "circular" definitions? That would be like "Abortion is what an abortionist does", IMO.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:18, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You got me there, I was convinced it was in Fallacies sub-page, but I'd maintain it's misleading to primarily define it with a negative. - RoyBoy 04:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

---

It's disappointing to me that you didn't include the main version that has been discussed recently and that was initially edited in after the straw poll and resulting discussion: Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo before it is viable. That's the version that has the greatest support from me and which has also received significant support from a number of others, and is by far the modal defn. from medical sources. Your suggestion here has already been weasel-worded toward your desired result. JJL (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

From an encyclopedic perspective, its simply inaccurate (too narrow). I'll understand if you add it as an option, but accuracy trumps weaselly. - RoyBoy 23:35, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, just so it's clear that we're being asked to decide which of the options that you personally deem acceptable is the best, rather than which option is best overall. Given that the medical defn., which has already received wide support here from a number of editors, is excluded, I'm not sure what you hope this exercise will prove. JJL (talk) 00:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite, I've already said (twice) you may add another option. This "exercise" is about forming a new consensus, though perhaps it'll also demonstrate the selective illiteracy of some of you. - RoyBoy 02:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The last time we had something like this and you it edited after it had started, DMSBel declared the whole thing invalid because something was changed after the start and reminded us constantly of that during every following discussion. It'd be no different this time, I imagine, esp. if it were I who added it back in. Furthermore, some people who have already expressed an opinion may not come back and notice that the most popular lede suggestion had been re-added. This exercise isn't about forming a new consensus: It's part of the continued attempt to remove 'viable' from the lede. Not listing the single best-supported option in your poll is a fatal flaw in your design. JJL (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RoyBoy has an odd idea that a handful of Wikipedia editors has the authority to pronounce the editors of just about every dictionary and the editors of every encyclopedia inaccurate. By his standards, lets go straight to the evolution article and insist that the planet is only 8 thousand years old - after all we need only produce a dozen Wikipedia editors to show that all those scientists are simply inaccurate. Easy as eating pie! Gandydancer (talk) 01:13, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If a definition is lacking what is necessary, it only takes one editor. I missed your response to my question above, does having an abortion "make a fetus defacto non-viable"? We could waste more time trying to define a fetus to not be "life" again. Evolution... I created the original misconception section that became objections to evolution. I've shut down more than one creationist engineer, explaining in detail how biology doesn't conform to their rigid preconceptions. - RoyBoy 02:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, it's not uncommon that biology doesn't conform to one's rigid preconceptions. 'Abortion' is well-defined by the medical community. 'Life' (and hence 'death') is not well-defined by the biological community. JJL (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's very bothersome to me that the most commonly occurring defn. in medical texts is being dismissed out-of-hand as not even being worthy of discussion and not everyone here is up in arms about it. Wikipedia will never be fully respected until there's some means of enforcing a minimal standard of accuracy. JJL (talk) 01:46, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't agree more. However, when you say accuracy; what I hear is conformity. - RoyBoy 02:06, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that an encyclopedia conforming with the state of the art in a technical area is a good thing. JJL (talk) 12:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, I have made pretty clear that it's okay with me to have both the narrower medical definition and also the more general definition in the lead sentence. You appear not to be bothered by omitting the latter (more general) definition. Why? If I had to choose between the two for the lead sentence, I'd go with the more general definition, and not just because this is a general encyclopedia. A lead sentence establishes the scope of the article, and that scope would be the same if we use the general definition compared to using both. The scope would be reduced, however, by using the narrower definition in the lead sentence.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but when you refer to the general definition, what definition do you mean, and backed by what sources? If you mean the 2006 version, that's effectively citing Wikipedia as a source. I understand the medical definition but not the general definition--in fact, I don't think there is one widely-accepted non-medical definition (with comparable unanimity to the medical 'viable' version). JJL (talk) 12:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When I refer to the general definition, I mean the definition prevalent in non-medical (e.g. legal and general-purpose) sources that do not say there's no such thing as abortion of a viable fetus.Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:25, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Can you state the defn. you're thinking of so we both are clear as to what we're talking about? JJL (talk) 01:18, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The most common English-language definition of abortion is loss of a pregnancy other than by live birth, or in other words the definition that was in this article from 2006-2011. That is also the legal definition. Thus, for example, the US Supreme Court said in the case of Roe v. Wade: "After viability, the State may regulate, and even prohibit, abortion...." Neither the most common English definition nor the legal definition say that there's no such thing as abortion of a viable fetus. I have made pretty clear that it's okay with me to have both the narrower medical definition and also the more general definition in the lead sentence. You appear not to be bothered by omitting the latter (more general) definition. Why? If I had to choose between the two for the lead sentence, I'd go with the more general definition, and not just because this is a general encyclopedia. A lead sentence establishes the scope of the article, and that scope would be the same if we use the general definition compared to using both. The scope would be reduced, however, by using only the narrower definition in the lead sentence.Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:05, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying. How was it determined that this was the most common? I am not as antagonistic to this defn. as I think you think I am. It is decidedly not what was in there before. "Not a live birth" and "dead" are not opposites if the fetus is not clearly alive. Being not born live just continues that status--it doesn't alter it to death. I prefer the medical defn. because I feel it's clearly sourced, consistent with WP style for similar matters, and appropriately technical for what the subject is, and many other suggestions are synthesized, but I don't see this one as being objectionable in the way that the 'death' version was. JJL (talk) 02:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

RoyBoy, myself, and other editors have indicated that it would be okay to change "death" to "destruction" in the 2006-2011 version, and there may be consensus to do that. What there has never been consensus for is turning the lead sentence into a statement that there's no such thing as abortion of a viable fetus, and that the only definitions that count are medical ones. Do you understand that such changes require consensus? This article won't ever be stable if editors continuously try to impose their own POV. You appear to think that medical dictionaries are more valid and reliable than general-purpose dictionaries, or legal dictionaries, and I disagree. In any event, if you want to identify what sorts of non-medical sources you would find persuasive on this point, then I'm all ears. Incidentally, I don't think there's consensus (yet) for my two-definition solution (this is starting to sound like Middle East negotiations).Anythingyouwant (talk) 02:41, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is a scientific fact that two people can see and hear the same event and yet come away with an opposite picture of what was seen and heard. You can see and hear anything you want, but please do not tell me that your assessment is correct and mine is false. As editors we are obliged to keep our personal opinions out of our edits and use our sources to produce our "facts". Anyone that feels otherwise should spend their time writing a personal blog rather than editing Wikipedia articles. Gandydancer (talk) 02:25, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't find "before viable" false, I find it (my understanding/opinion) inaccurate (perhaps I should say incomplete instead) and inappropriate for Wikipedia; there is a distinction, no wonder you're annoyed. Personal, JJL said that before, it was hilarious. So I'm on a personal quest -- while others reinforce the bastion of neutrality by skipping over that viability can be ambiguous, fetus = organism = can die, not conceding abortion's goal is to end the fetus, etc. I skipped definition(s), it was plain they can be added. - RoyBoy 03:49, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Abortion doesn't have a goal, but it does have an intended purpose. You seem to think women walk into a medical office saying "Kill it" (the fetus) rather than "End it" (the pregnancy). I believe it's the latter--they don't want to be pregnant any more. If they wanted to kill something they could wait and give birth and then kill it. If that sounds unreasonable, so is the assumption that they want to kill the fetus earlier. They want to not be pregnant any longer. That's why abortions are performed. That's what they do. JJL (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you/they wish to focus on that, your prerogative, and its your bias. An abortion is about ending a pregnancy and fetus, if just about ending the pregnancy (and transplanting the fetus), we would call it something else and it would be a different article/talk. If you want to teleport "kill" into an inappropriate context, take it to a forum. Oh yeah, don't try to guess what all gravidas want; once again the norm does not accurately define the plurality of reality -- and simplifies it at a cost to us all. - RoyBoy 03:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is they say neither "kill it" nor "end it". But that is beside the point. What is being pregnant? The state of carrying an embryo or fetus within the female body, right? If there is no fertilized ovum there is no pregnancy. There is no way other than birth to end a pregnancy that doesn't also end the life of the fetus. Are you saying they want a baby, but don't want to be pregnant? Excepting rape, there are ways to avoid becoming pregnant. So except in the case of a failure of contraception, a woman does not have to become pregnant. What if methods used to avoid becoming pregnant fail? Continuing with the pregnancy or abortion are the only two options. The latter will result in the death of the fetus. That simply has to be faced - there is no way to end an unwanted pregnancy without ending the life of the fetus. Pregnancy is a physical dependency relationship between the mother and fetus. Terminating a pregnancy results in the death of the fetus. DMSBel (talk) 21:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An abortion (i) terminates a pregnancy, ending the physical dependency relationship the fetus has to the mother, and (ii) terminates the life of the fetus, ending both its present functions as an organism and it ongoing development into a more complex one. Now performing (ii) will guarantee (i) in any state of affairs, as one cannot (logically) be pregnant unless one is keeping a fetus alive. And in current practice, we cannot perform (i) without simutaneously performing (ii).[[36]]DMSBel (talk) 21:29, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

DMSBel, since there is no such thing as "degree of death" you believe that the death of an embryo, a non-viable fetus, a viable fetus, and a newborn baby are all the same, if I understand you correctly. Since we have laws that forbid the taking of life, how do you justify that a woman who has an abortion should not be charged with murder? Gandydancer (talk) 22:26, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Surely you know that there are degrees of culpability in law? Taking of another human life is not automatically murder, and guilt is not presumed, but has to be established. Typical "pro-choice" way of turning the thing back to front - ask the other person to justify something they don't agree with or that is not so straightforward. As I have told you I don't live in the US, and UK passed its abortion act five years before I was born. I didn't open the door to abortion on request. As soon as I was old enough to understand some of the issues, I was against abortion on request. At some points I have been weak pro-choice in my thinking. But as I thought the matter through I realised I agreed with the practice of preventing self-harm in mental institutions, so it was inconsisent to argue for the right to an abortion. And because for a time I didn't think through some of the rationalisations (pseudo-rationales) for abortion, specifically those related to medical indications as though it is not generally possible to try to save the life of mother and her fetus. There are some things that cannot be justified - expending more time, money and research on making abortion "safer" than on making childbirth safer for one.DMSBel (talk) 18:36, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also Gandydancer your question would only have validity if I had a say in law-making. But as I understand it in America the pro abortion rights lobby didn't go to the People and still don't go to the People to find out what they want. Instead they have used the courts in America to set policy, because the courts are not subject to the People.[[37]] DMSBel (talk) 19:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is a lie. Any law found in violation of the Constitution is void. If "the people" don't like the Constitution they can change it. ArtifexMayhem (talk) 20:02, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe I have misunderstood. How are Supreme court justices appointed? DMSBel (talk) 22:28, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are they not appointed by the President and serve for life? How is what I said a lie? I am willing to be shown if I am in error. But saying it is a lie implies I knew that what I was saying was incorrect. DMSBel (talk) 02:20, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Taking of another human life is not automatically murder" What then, justifiable homicide? Manslaughter? Gandydancer (talk) 21:56, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Still waiting for an answer... Gandydancer (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And what has your question got to do with the article? DMSBel (talk) 01:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)'[reply]

Everything. And why are you so reluctant to answer? Gandydancer (talk) 01:46, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't given the matter enough thought to give a considered answer. Its a complex issue. DMSBel (talk) 02:17, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you and several others here should give it some thought since you may be calling several of my best friends and my two beloved daughters, who have dedicated more than 20 years of their life to raising their beloved children, murderers. Gandydancer (talk) 00:32, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Take it to your talk page, Gandydancer. NYyankees51 (talk) 00:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Further lead sentence options

FYI, people who supported one or more lead sentence options may want to make sure that you didn't skip over any options, especially options that were written and inserted after the initial set (as RoyBoy indicated might happen when he presented the initial set of options).Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:30, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are a lot of dictionary definitions out there. (I wish I could access this: [38].) This page [39] has lots of cited examples. From the State of Georgia [40]: "How does the law define “abortion?” “Abortion” means the use or prescription of any instrument, medicine, drug, or any other substance or device with the intent to terminate the pregnancy of a female known to be pregnant." The CDC says [41]: "How does CDC define abortion? For surveillance purposes, legal abortion is defined as a procedure performed by a licensed physician, or a licensed advanced practice clinician acting under the supervision of a licensed physician, to induce the termination of a pregnancy." From Gutmacher [42]: "In fact, of the 18 states that have some definition of pregnancy as beginning at fertilization or conception, 12 define abortion as the termination of a "known" pregnancy. Furthermore, two of these states (Arizona and Texas) specifically exclude contraceptives from their definitions of abortion, even though they use fertilization as the starting point for pregnancy elsewhere in their statutes." Here's an expended version from Williams Gynecology [43]: "Abortion is the spontaneous or induced termination of pregnancy before fetal viability. Because popular use of the word abortion implies a deliberate pregnancy termination, some prefer the word miscarriage to refer to spontaneous fetal loss before viability. Because the widespread use of sonography and serum measurement of human chorionic gonadotropin levels allows identification of an extremely early pregnancy, a number of other names have come into common use. These include, for example, early pregnancy loss or early pregnancy failure. The National Center for Health Statistics, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), and the World Health Organization (WHO) define abortion as pregnancy termination prior to 20 weeks' gestation or a fetus born weighing less than 500 g. Despite this, definitions vary widely according to state laws....". From this 2010 article [44]: "(Clayton and Newton, 1976) define abortion as the expulsion of the conceptus before the 28th week of pregnancy; a view that is still held by the British law up to this moment." From a 2000 article in the Journal of Medical Ethics: [45]: "Following US jurisprudence, American commentators often define abortion as the “expulsion of an embryo or fetus before it is viable”." Once again--as always--the key determining factor is usually given as 'viable' or a variant; and the purpose is given is generally to terminate a pregnancy (not to cause a death). JJL (talk) 19:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The williams gynecology reference is from a chapter about first trimester abortions.DMSBel (talk) 17:20, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

...but it defines the term in general before going into first- vs. second-trimester issues. JJL (talk) 19:36, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Two old sources, to contradict the claim that has been made here that somehow the treatment of the term 'abortion' has changed from what it was 50 years ago: From 1924, "THE MANAGEMENT OF ABORTION",ONSLOW A. GORDON Jr., M.D., JAMA 1924;82(13):1021-1023 [46]: "We define abortion as any interrupted gestation prior to the period of viability." (The context appears to be spontaneous abortion here.) From 1902, "Report on Progress in Obstetrics", Frank A. Higgins, M.D., Boston Med Surg J 1902; 147:352-355 [47]: "[Stuver] would, therefore, define abortion as the deliberate and intentional interruption of pregnancy before viability of the fetus has been attained. " (This journal is now the The New England Journal of Medicine.) More detail on this can be found here [48]. The viability definition is by no means new. JJL (talk) 19:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No one disputes that spontaneous abortion of a viable fetus is impossible, AFAIK. There are a million reliable sources out there that define abortion, and maybe it would be best if everyone go and take a look, rather than relying on the ones picked out to support one side or another in this talk page discussion. (I won't comment on the phonetic accuracy of the header for this talk page section.)Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:56, 22 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We already tried the non-cherry-picking approach--that was what made the viability-based defn. so clearly the right choice. (See the archives.) I would say that the CDC and Williams are not at all cherry-picked sources; they're highly authoritative in this matter. I did change the section title--I hadn't intended the pun and hadn't seen it. JJL (talk) 18:31, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Once sources are brought to light if they are reliable they have to be taken into consideration along with what we already have, we have far too many (around fifty) for a footnote (even the current footnote is heavy). I didn't get an explantion from you why tertiary sources are not prefered, the link you gave said secondary and to a lesser extent tertiary sources are preferable over primary sources for detailed discussion. It didn't say secondary sources are preferable over tertiary, in matters of definition.DMSBel (talk) 15:57, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Also dictionaries and encyclopedia may also be secondary sources[[49]]DMSBel (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

JJL, you are arguing in circles. No one disputes that you have identified some highly authoritative sources that correctly identify a particular medical definition of the word "abortion". But sometimes words have more than one definition, either in different specialty fields, or the same specialty field, and sometimes in general speech. Here the issue is how to properly weight the definitions. Highly authoritative sources attest to more than one particular definition. One of the definitions (the one you have emphasized) is not as broad as the other definition (that was in the article from 2006-2011). Which do you think would be better for the start of this article, given Wikipedia policy? "A good definition is not ... over broad or over narrow...."[50] The definition must be applicable to everything to which the defined term applies (i.e. not leave anything out), and to nothing else (i.e. not include any things to which the defined term would not truly apply). The broad abortion definition would not leave anything out. The narrow medical definition would. Also note this guideline: "Texts should be written for everyday readers...."[51][52]Anythingyouwant (talk) 22:11, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Given policy, I still think the medical defn. is best. (Are you sure your second link points where you wanted it to point?) The medical defn. is sourced, accurate, and easily understandable. The previous consensus version appears to me to have been synthesized from a variety of sources via arguments made here, and that is a significant policy violation. Let me ask this: Where else on WP is a medical defn. superceded by a non-medical defn.? Look at (male) Circumcision, for example. This is controversial, but the defn. given simply defines the medical procedure, then links (in the fourth sentence) to Religious male circumcision and later on to Circumcision controversies. This is similar to how I feel the Abortion article should proceed: Define the medical issue and point to discussions of non-medical issues elsewhere, or later in the article. That's WP style, as far as I can see. JJL (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Outdent) JJL, I'm not aware that circumcision has a non-medical definition that's broader than the medical definition, so that word doesn't really seem like a good example. Of course, Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, but that doesn't stop us from looking at other articles. You might want to take a look at allergy, addiction, and idiot. In the allergy article, the strict medical definition ("Strictly, allergy is one of four forms of hypersensitivity and is called type I....") is not in the lead sentence. In the addiction article, the narrow definition is given in the first sentence, and the general definition in the second sentence. In the idiot article, the narrow definition is only mentioned much later ("In psychology, it is a historical term for the state or condition now called profound mental retardation.").Anythingyouwant (talk) 19:34, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well those articles are interesting! Idiot is bad enough, but addiction is just terrible. When they say "historically..." they must be speaking of ancient history. That article could sure use some work. Gandydancer (talk) 20:14, 24 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]