Template:Community article probation

Seems like there is alot of "alleged" material. --70.181.45.138 (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "alleged" material was the result of an author with a distinctly partisan point of view adding "alleged" to every documented accuracy. I have removed these comments in order to return the article to NPOV. The partisan operative will say otherwise, but needs to learn that not everyone sees his biased perspective as neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.74.8.86 (talk) 17:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning your current behavior: Your own bias is showing in your edit summaries. You are technically correct that things such as the book's factual inaccuracies (I'm assuming that's what you meant) are well-documented in reliable sources, but you're being terribly rude. You need to assume some good faith here and stop with the insults immediately. If you insist on calling other editors names such as "racist, sexist right wing nut job" in your edit summaries, you will be banned from editing Wikipedia. That is immature, puerile behavior, and violates Wikipedia's policy on personal attacks.

Concerning CENSEI's edits: You need to stop adding weasel words to the text right now. The book is factually inaccurate, and there's no way around that. It's easily verified in the sources. This isn't about politics or how one might feel about the author or the book's subject. We all have to adhere to Wikipedia policy on point of view. The answer, if you are sure the book is not inaccurate, isn't to white-wash the article, it is to find verifiable, neutral, reliable sources that say so, and then ideally to compare and contrast both views, giving proper weight to each (and by that, I mean to avoid giving too much weight to a fringe view).

--GoodDamon 18:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course its factually inaccurate...because it challenges your preferred presidential candidate. Sorry GoodDamon, your bias is overtly obvious. I love how all the sources this article cites to refute the book are far left (I.e mediamatters, NYT). You know there are other more neutral sources you could cite...but you wont do that. We know. You love Obama. He's your guy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not the NYT is biased, it's not far left by any stretch of the imagination. And regardless, it has a reputation for being about as accurate as newspapers come on straightforward factual matters like those referred to in the article. You've yet to provide any contrary sources... 78.105.202.25 (talk) 08:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? Since when did I cite MediaMatters? That's not my cite. And if you think the New York Times doesn't pass muster as a reliable source, I'm not sure there's any point in further discussion. But for the record, I'm happy to cite reliable sources that refute the New York Times; if you find any, I'll see to it they're incorporated. I've been looking diligently for them myself for neutral POV, but haven't been able to find any. Until then, it really does appear, based on the reliable sources we have (not MediaMatters) that the book is factually incorrect. That's not my bias showing. --GoodDamon 17:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And incidentally, I should also point out that you, anonymous editor, are very welcome to make your own contributions to the article. --GoodDamon 17:12, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is at least one statement in this article that violates WP:OR:

If Murray's point is valid, we can expect to see items from the book surfaced in the mainstream media first by the Fox News Network on cable. If falsehoods, repackaged as ponderable questions, proliferate from there onto the less obviously biased news organizations, the book may have considerable impact

There are also other sections which come close to violating OR too. One section would be the Content section which should be expanded and also written in a more neutral manner. Brothejr (talk) 12:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since you've removed the offending material in the other sections, I'm moving the tag to the content section. Gamaliel (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody needs to explain why these hardcover smear instruments are produced by the same group of people every four years. It is, openly and beyond a doubt, a right-wing conspiracy. Matalin's the mastermind behind the Threshold Editions imprint. Right-wing think tanks buy up huge bulk orders from Simon & Schuster which artificially propels the book to number one on the NYT bestseller list. The early August timing is key because there's not enough time between now and November 4th to refute every falsehood the book promotes. The "bestseller" status legitimizes discussion of points from the book posed as questions on cable news shows. And, finally, these "questions" overwhelm the mainstream media. This kind of smear campaign distracts the public dialogue from sufficient focus on health care, education, security, etc. Most of us can plainly see that understanding the story behind the book is much more important than understanding the book itself. Can't a wikipedia article somehow expose the game behind all this without getting too POV? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.106.144.216 (talk) 16:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All that may be true... and entirely inapplicable to Wikipedia. Please read WP:SOAP. --GoodDamon 17:06, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I identified Media Matters for America as a "progressive" group that was formed to counter what they see as "conservative misinformation" and added a footnote linking directly to MMA's website where I got the description. I found that description at the top of Wikipedia's Media Matters for America article. I'm wondering why an editor removed that (I've now put it back in the article again with a note to please discuss it here). At the MMA article, National Review is described as a "conservative" magazine in a criticism section. I have no problem at all with including criticism of Corsi's book in this article, in fact, I've added information on the criticism and made it prominent because this is a controversial book critical of someone else. But removing identification of where MMA is coming from seems completely unfair and POV. Noroton (talk) 18:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem was that you paraphrased their description of themselves while saying that is was the actual description. It should be their actual description or not. Also, the scare quotes around the word "progressive" were a problem. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually your most recent edit addresses that problem. Thanks. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added a list of falsehoods to the article from Media Matters. I will go through and cite other sources besides them, although I have not as of yet. Before anyone deletes it, they need to realize that what Wikipedia reports is facts, and if the facts show the book to be a preposterous pack of lies, then they should still remain here. Facts must not be bent to fit political viewpoints, if they are, Wikipedia is no better than this book. See Also: Truthiness Wikilost (talk) 20:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever else was in that edit, it was mostly vandalism. Don't. Arkon (talk) 20:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some of your edit was vandalism and the rest, while probably true, were not referenced and very likely not relevant. It is not the point of wikipedia to refute the content of the book. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:30, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've refrained from vandalism this time, but the point of Wikipedia is to report facts, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be a "Factual Inaccuracies" section in the article already. I'm merely showing the extent of those inaccuracies. Wikilost (talk) 20:35, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While it is pretty clear the book is a load of old cobblers created by someone who doesn't want a Democrat to win the election, it is no excuse for biased and slipshod editing. Inflammatory titles for headings, poorly-sourced reactions and non-neutral language are creeping in all over the place. Please follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines with respect to WP:NPOV, WP:RS, WP:V, WP:WEIGHT, etc. Also, some of the comments on this talk page have been less than civil. Please assume good faith and be nice. Bear in mind that this article probably falls under the auspices of Obama-related article probation, which means everybody must behave themselves. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:45, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the link to Kerry's site appropriate? I believe I've seen it come and go, so thought we should take a moment to discuss. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why not? It's a valid source. It's also a good place for people to get the real story on this book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikilost (talk • contribs) 21:04, 14 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]