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Template:Vital article

The page as should be edit protective to prevent possible vandalism? please do help Saifullah.vguj (talk) 16:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that an alleged birth name "Edvige Antonia Albina Maino" has been added. This is not the first name time this claim has been made. The last time, it was:

• Added by Aman.kumar.goel on 21 June 2019
• Deleted by Numerounovedant on 15 September 2019

The first time this kind of thing happened was in 2004-2005:

• addition on 17 November 2004 by an anonymous IP
• deletion on 16 October 2005 by another anonymous IP

The talk page archives have an exchange Talk:Sonia Gandhi/Archive 3#Real Name?, where it has been said that this was a WP:HOAX generated by Wikipedia itself, because no source making this claim before 2006 has been found.

I don't regard the new Free Press Journal article as a reliable source because, firstly WP:NEWSORGs are only reliable for news, not for historical matters, and secondly the article is simply reporting that Britannica says X and the BBC News says Y. So, nothing useful comes out of this citation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:52, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The FPJ source simply states what other websites are saying. This could very well have been a case of one single website/journalist picking up the name from wiki (around the mid-2000s) and the others following suit. That's possibly how it also ended up on the (February 2008) Britannica article or wherever. No erudition or books refer to her using the Antonia name. This is one of the few pre-2006 source talking about her name and the one that they use is Sonia. VedantTalk 11:02, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kautilya3, I found many results online for the name, "Antonia Maino", but is there any reliable source for the Antonia Maino name which can be used in this article or are you totally against the use of that name (I observed that you have been removing that name repeatedly)? Venue9 (talk) 03:53, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Venu9, it seems that you are not reading the above discussion with a clear head and understanding what it says. I have put it in bold face for you now.-- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:09, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RegentsPark, Vanamonde93, according to the arguments of Kautilya3 above and in the next section, the name, "Antonia Maino" was a WP:HOAX generated by Wikipedia itself, because no source making this claim before 2006 has been found. However, many sources can be found which prove that Sonia Gandhi's original name is Antonia Maino [right now]. Some sources like Encyclopaedia Britannica and "free press journal" have been rejected as sources although they have been cited as references in other Wikipedia articles. Now please tell me how to add this original name of "Antonia Maino" to this article? Venue9 (talk) 14:23, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have found the origin of the two names that are being bandied about:

• The name "Antonia Maino" was apparently revealed (if that is the correct word) by Jayalalithaa, in a press conference in 2002.^[1]
• The name "Edvige Antonia Albina Maino" was cretead by Javier Moro in a "fictionalised biography" called Red Sari.^[2]

So, at least we know that Wikipedia did not generate this hoax. I am relieved. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:02, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And I believe both the names are fictitious. An Outlook reporter, who interviewed Sonia Gandhi's father in 1977, had no hint that she had any name other than "Sonia".^[3] -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kautilya3, So do you think we still need to redirect names such as Antonia maino, Antonia Maino, Sonia Maino, Edvige Antonia Albina Maino, Edvige Antonia Albina Màino, Antonia Màino to Sonia Gandhi?- Akhiljaxxn (talk) 09:28, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Akhiljaxxn, Sonia Maino is fine as it is her maiden name. All the others should go. The spread of this hoax has reached frightening proportions. So please do nominate them for deletion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alleged sources

Britannica was considered a well established WP:RS so far, just a comment, but admins will know better if the policies have changed or reinterpreted. Capankajsmilyo^{(Talk | Infobox assistance)} 19:26, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Redirected from RfD

I've been directed here from RfD, anyone interested in participating there please note that a number of assertions made in this talk page (in the section above) can be shown to be false by simple googling. If you are interesting in stopping hoaxes please don't repeat misinformation yourself. Note the the following:

1. There is no evidence that it is a WP:HOAX generated by Wikipedia itself, because no source making this claim before 2006 has been found. Google search shows a number of sources mentioning the name Antonia Maino - e.g. this one from 2003 [2] before any such edit on that appeared in 2004 in Wikipedia.
2. There is no evidence that the name "Edvige Antonia Albina Maino" was cretead by Javier Moro in a "fictionalised biography" called Red Sari, given that the name appeared in a 2007 book [3] before Red Sari was published in 2008.
3. No evidence has been provided that her political opponents invented the name Antonia Maino, the fact that they used her foreignness to attack her may be evidence of xenophobia possibly racism, but not hoax. Please provide proof if you want to say that it is a hoax they had concocted. Hzh (talk) 11:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hzh, I suggest you read the existing discussion first before making new comments. Please note also that evidence is not asked for something being a hoax. Rather, on Wikipedia, evidence is asked for reliability of information. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:02, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the discussion, given that the quotes I gave are from the discussion above. The fact that editors claimed that this is a hoax while making assertions easily debunked by googling suggest that there is no solid foundation for such claim. Hzh (talk) 12:09, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, if not the fictionalised biography, it gets generated in some political circles, gets inserted into Wikipedia (3 July 2006), then gets copied by newspapers, and then circulates. It doesn't matter. We are looking for reliable information from somebody who knows what he/she is talking about, and tells us where the information comes from. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:15, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that its her birth name. there is no official document to prove such. For such a controversial topic one cannot just add because someone wrote a line in a book and did not mention its source in it bibliography or appendix. Anyone if can bring something official documents or records then we can talk on serious note. Dey subrata (talk) 12:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rashid Kidwai wrote a biography of Sonia Gandhi, which is unfortunately not previewed in Google Books. But there is a successor book 24 Akbar Road, which says:

* Russia was the reason Stephano Maino called his daughter Sonia. Stephano had been captured and detained as a prisoner-of-war for several years in the towns of Vladimir and Suzdal till three Russian women, Nadia, Anushka and Sonia, reportedly helped him escape. Little wonder then that he gave his three daughters Russian names in honour of the campaign in which he fought.^[1]

This is fairly clear and should put the controversy to rest. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't a proof of any sort, simply different story told by different writers (see the use of the word "reportedly", I've read the same story elsewhere). Given that this is such a controversy, you would think that there must be plenty of sources that would specifically debunk this "hoax", that there isn't speaks volume. I think the suggestion that "Edvige Antonia Albina Maino" was a hoax first added on Wikipedia is something that deserves investigation, perhaps involving the admins. Because, if true, it appears to have fooled even Encyclopedia Britannica when it only stayed in the article for maybe six months, and would be a spectacular example of Wikipedia spreading false biographical information. The media would certainly jump on it if you can show that this is indeed true. Hzh (talk) 13:50, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hzh:, apparently we don't have evidence of hoaxes or that her name at birth was what you suggest above. What we do have is a very solid policy on what sorts of things are allowed and not allowed in biographies of living persons. I suggest you back out of this conversation unless you have very solid reliable sources because, even on a talk page, this tendentious name bombing is a violation of that policy. --regentspark (comment) 14:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tendentious name bombing is a new one for me, can you point to a specific policy or guidelines on that so that I can actually know what it is that I have been accused of? I'm only here because participants in RfD repeated false assertions made in this discussion, I am merely interested in people not spreading such misinformation into other areas in Wikipedia and has no interest in editing this article. Hzh (talk) 14:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant policy is already linked in my post above (WP:BLP)). Even a cursory scan of these talk pages shows that attempts to link Gandhi with some form of Edvige etc. is a common occurrence on these pages and, equally, that reliable sources for this name are scarce to non-existent. Perhaps you are acting in good faith, but it is never a bad idea to take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the context surrounding a contentious issue. --regentspark (comment) 15:15, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a discussion on the names, not a random discussion. Can you suggest how to discuss the names without actually mentioning them? Are you going to issue such a warning to everyone here and everyone who participated in RfD? Hzh (talk) 15:23, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh. I thought this would be pretty clear but here is the telegraphic version. Read the talk pages. This has been discussed ad nauseum. Excessive discussion of this can be viewed as a BLP violation. So, please stop unless you have reliable sources. Thank you. --regentspark (comment) 15:28, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then I would suggest you pin a note to the talk page that discussing the names may be prohibited, and shut it down when it comes up. You cannot expect other people to know there is any issue with such discussion especially editors are telling others in other places to come here and read the discussion. Hzh (talk) 15:45, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further evidence of propaganda. 12 April 2006 insertion of the name in wikipedia. And an external link of (a fake news website) of 2004 Here Jayalalitha's election propaganda of 2002. Dey subrata (talk) 14:30, 6 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Supreme court case: The supposed name of Antonia Maino goes back to, and possibly originates in, the 1999 petition discussed in Hari Shanker Jain vs Sonia Gandhi, 2001 in which the petitioners alleged that Sonia Gandhi's name was Antonia Maino, her marriage to Rajiv gandhi was null and void, her Indian citizenship invald etc. Writing for the court, Justice Ramesh Chandra Lahoti wrote, No basis or source of knowledge of all such averments is stated., and later, The petitions are hopelessly vague and completely bald in the allegations made, most of which could not possibly be within the personal knowledge of the petitioners but still verified as true to their knowledge, without indicating the source. etc. The case was dismissed but apparently the rumours persist. Abecedare (talk) 03:36, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Abecedare, thanks for the comment, I would consider it the last nail in the coffin, once and for all. Dey subrata (talk) 14:25, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Edvige Antonia Albina Maino. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 3#Edvige Antonia Albina Maino until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Akhiljaxxn (talk) 11:10, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please also read the discussion above linked hereVenue9 (talk) 14:13, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Akhiljaxxn, I had cited reliable references for my additions to the article, so why did you remove them?-Dr2Rao (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Akhiljaxxn, I saw your reply on your talk pages, but it doesn't answer my question. I had cited reliable references for my additions to the article, so why did you remove them?-Dr2Rao (talk) 13:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Dr2Rao: Wikipedia is not an WP:INDISCRIMINATE collection of information. Perhaps you need to explain, with sources, why this "time to citizenship" information is not just a piece of trivia. --regentspark (comment) 15:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RegentsPark, She had to give up her Italian citizenship to get her citizenship of India as neither country allowed dual citizenship at that time. She therefore avoided become a citizen of India for 16 years and was eventually forced to do so because of her Mother-in-law who was under political pressure. Please restore the sentences which Akhiljaxxn removed. Thanks!-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:24, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited references for both sentences.-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

25 Cents FC has cited a reference for her unwillingness to give up Italian citizenship here.-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Um. Please read WP:OR. Everything you write in your reply is a perfect example of that.--regentspark (comment) 15:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RegentsPark, I have cited references right, so how can it be original research?-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing you've cited a reference for is the time to citizenship. All the other stuff, your justification for that duration, is OR.--regentspark (comment) 15:40, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

RegentsPark, the cited source for the first sentence does say she took 16years to become a citizen of India. The second source says what she signed her citizenship certificate as (Antonia Maino). Both the sources used are reliable! I have not added any sentence without a source.-Dr2Rao (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I explain above, the number of years someone takes to become a citizen is trivia and therefore will not be included. The name issue is addressed in the discussion that Akhiljaxxn referes to above. --regentspark (comment) 17:42, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Friends and fellow Wikipedians, RegentsPark just reverted my edit here. He asked me to get consensus for it, so please comment. Can we have those sentences in this article? I'd also like to know your thoughts on mentioning her real name, "Antonia Maino" in the lead since there are many sources online for it, including the Encyclopedia Britannica.-Dr2Rao (talk) 13:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion already occurred at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 3#Edvige Antonia Albina Maino. The result of the discussion is delete "Antonia Maino" and related terms. Thank you.--25 CENTS VICTORIOUS ^☣ 13:58, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

25 Cents FC, please comment about the two sentences that RegentsPark removed also. I invite others also​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ to comment.-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:30, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support the restoration of the two sentences that were removed and adding the name, "Edvige Antonia Albina Maino" in the lead.-Dr2Rao (talk) 15:33, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]