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@Cron11 and Lithopsian: I wonder whether we should just delete the sentence - its luminosity has been measured at 120,000 or 279,000 times that of the sun...clearly does overlap with Betelgeuse (though I do suspect brighter), hence we can't really rank the stars anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that this sort of ranking, other than in the most blatant and reliable (and cited) cases, is unhelpful and impossible to maintain. Lithopsian (talk) 16:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I removed it - it was uncited anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Lithopsian: what you reckon about buffing this one to GA-hood, which will act in sorts like a Stable Version? I was abit baffled by these results, which make it considerably less luminous than some others. Would be good to put all results and how they were derived. I do like it when we embrace uncertainty but showing how different results are derived and the certainty of 'knowing' them. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS: There were a few new papers in 2017-18 that looked like they study some interesting stuff like mass loss and membership of larger group. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll certainly try to improve things. I started off seeing the new papers, but then found a lot of what was there already needed tidying up. The low luminosity is a surprise: it comes mainly from a lower temperature, the radius is very much in line with previous results. It is hard to criticise the temperature, it is newly derived using model atmospheres and SED fitting. This is way out of line with more previous results, but also a different method to the previous results which tend to use spectra rather than SED fitting. A trivial calculation from brightness and distance (260±20 pc from Hipparcos), even assuming no extinction which is thought to be the case for Rigel anyway, and taking any remotely sensible bolometric correction for a B class supergiant, gives a luminosity a little over 100,000 L_☉. It isn't a coincidence that this is the number derived by earlier studies, but assuming the distance is correct it sets an absolute lower bound for the luminosity, suggesting that the new result is flawed. Roll on Gaia. I'm thinking to discuss the new results in the text but not put them in the starbox, much as I hate to "ignore the data". Lithopsian (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - I think it is important to include it and hopefully there is a subsequent paper that clarifies why it is wrong. Luckily kisa are only preoccupied with superlative or exaggerated results...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:40, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

" Roll on Gaia." Eh? Gaia accuracy for stars above 4th magnitude cannot be measured. Rigel has no Gaia data. Just saying. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:45, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The 230 brightest stars in the sky (G < 3 mag, loosely referred to as very bright stars) receive a special treatment to ensure complete sky coverage at the bright end" and "it is expected that a single-measurement precision of 100 μas will ultimately be achievable, which corresponds to end-of-life astrometry with standard errors of a few dozen μas".^[1] So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes. Lithopsian (talk) 17:33, 30 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, can hardly wait....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again. Clutching straws here, eh? Distance requires a parallax. DR3 will still have nothing but an estimate of Rigel's position. That's the whole point. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How do you figure that? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly. "So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes" is another false statement. The brightness of the star (and those above 3rd magnitude) greatly exceeds the threshold of the detector. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Suit yourself if you aren't going to listen or learn, but for the information of others here's an update paper on Gaia and very bright stars^[2] and a presentation with nice pictures. 151.230.113.97 (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly facts trumps speculations. Sadly the inherent errors by Gaia become larger for bright stars, becoming likely on par with HIP. I.e. 1 mas. Your linked reference clearly concludes: "Virtual object synchronisation may mitigate some of those problems for the 50 stars brighter than G=1.75.
" The problems in reduction and calibration of GAIA data in the case of bright stars (above 3rd magnitude) are not simple, and these given references point this out. If you read pg.9-10, Gaia could not detect the star's core to get any astrometry, and this was for stars with G magnitudes between 1.1-5.0. Rigel is bright than 1.1G magnitude (they define it as an ultra-bright stars BTW. ). They even summise "The final astrometric error of these observations will be the sum of the formal precision and the residual calibration error, which will therefore be larger than the numbers derived as the ultimate limit from the Cramer Rao lower bound. Here, we do not quantify how well these data can be calibrated." (My bold.) If you read the conclusion (pg.11), they say: "We presented a technical solution that would allow the collection of Gaia astrometric and spectrophotometric data for extremely bright stars (G < 2).'" this does not include Rigel. Worst it is unclear with their method will be adopted with GAIA mission. e.g. "It is however not yet clear whether this mode will be adopted for the remainder of the Gaia mission." (pg.11).

Your claims of me not understanding the sources are unjustified. Simply, the misleading statements criticised by me are quite justified.

Another gross error is your edit saying "Remove Simbad-specific codename."[1] Actually it is the name of the variable in GVSC, and was added to counter this incorrect statement that Rigel has no variable star designation. [2] It does. (I have now restored this.)

NOTE: Good to see another anon IP present an argument and attempt to deride an argument based solely a series of edits on Rigel alone.[3] Suspicion infers this is likely socking to avoid legitimate scrutiny, made worse by the evidentiary discussion and criticism here.[4] Are you a sock of Lithopsian? Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think there is enough coverage now? Time to polish? Lithopsian (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article still has more than a few dozen gross errors, which need to be corrected. (I've just correct the variable star designation that appears in the GCVS5.) It remains below GA standards based on poorly sourced or over used references for cites e.g. Kaler and Schaff. John Herschel first discovered in 1839 that Betelgeuse was sometimes brighter than Rigel. Webb (and several others) have said in the 19th Century "…has speculated that maybe it was during a rare period where it was outshone by Betelgeuse resulted in the latter star being Alpha and Rigel Beta Orionis." Kaler just repeated it. It is also fits uncontroversial knowledge as stated in WP:SCG.

I have removed the tag - Herschel (1840) doesn't speculate on the Bayer designations. I don't know the Webb citation. Just because Kaler mentions it does not mean he came up with the idea. Hence the statement and source are true. If you find an older source speculating on the same issue you are welcome to add it. If you can't then it stands as the best available reference. In any case it doesn't warrant a ^{[dubious – discuss]} tag, which is missing the point. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As for the 2nd paragraph of 'Nomenclature' it verbosely/garrulously says:

"In 2016, the International Astronomical Union organized a Working Group on Star Names (WGSN)[22] to catalog and standardize proper names for stars. The WGSN's first bulletin of July 2016[23] included a table of the first two batches of names approved by the WGSN, which included Rigel for the star β Orionis A. It is now so entered in the IAU Catalog of Star Names.[24]"

Simply write:

"In 2016, Rigel or β Orionis A. was entered in the IAU Catalog of Star Names.[24]"

Here GA requires "They are well written, contain factually accurate and verifiable information." This article presently fails on all three counts!! Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What are you saying is the original reference/person for proposing that the Bayer designation occurred at a (rare) time when Betelgeuse outshone Rigel? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS:Text can't be "garrulous" as it is written not loudly spoken - the word you (presumably) want is verbose. Also, feel free to list specific errors as you find them. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:40, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"garrulous" can mean long-winded or wordy BTW. Its antonym is "concise".

I note the stated magnitudes are mostly wrong, especially as the Guinan et al. (Ref 4) is quoting the range of 0.05 to 0.18 from another unnamed source. (They didn't measure it BTW) . Even Moravveji, et al. (2012) Vmag of ~0.12 was only derived over 27.7 days. Its range appears as 0.17p-0.22p in GCVS (2009), from 0.17-0.22 Hpmag (1991) in a period of 2.07 days[5], and 0.03:V-0.30:V NVS (1981). A better mean visual mag is +0.08 from uvbyβ results (no extinction problems) from Hauck (1997) [6] (as uvby98 100034085) than +0.13 from Ducati (2002) "Catalogue of Stellar Photometry in Johnson's 11-color system.", which has questionable extinction especially with a nearby reflection nebula. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Simple - we can put in both - can you write in plain English how the two results are derived? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Guinan got their results from their own study in 1985 of observation over 18 nights. I have expanded how they got that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its tricky. Very few reliable sources publish a range of variability in the V filter. Guinan does, although is a bit lax about explaining where it came from. He's done the photometry, but it isn't clear which photometry was used or whether it was just a general guess from literature values. The NSV (sic) catalogue is a possible alternative. The results are just a crude min/max of extreme values from the literature, not necessarily consistent with eachother, but could be considered comprehensive. Difficult to cite though, because they've been removed from the latest versions of the online tables. As for the "mean" magnitude, Simbad lists Ducati and that's good enough for most people. +0.12 was in Simbad for a long time, is in many catalogues such as the Bright Star Catalogue, and is still widely quoted. Quite how much of a mean it really is is open for discussion. Hauck is definitely a mean, of one value from the 1970s, so we should ignore that. The GCPD is a comprehensive catalogue of photometry and they publish a weighted mean in the UBV system of +0.138 (in GCPD2), as well as showing all the underlying published values. Hipparcos doesn't publish V magnitudes, but their Hp results suggest a considerably fainter range. The Tycho Vt magnitude is close to V and can be converted to within a few hundredths, suggesting a V magnitude of +0.28. Older photovisual magnitudes that should be close to the V system give results around +0.30, for example the HD catalogue at +0.34. I can't find any reliable sources discussing these possible discrepancies, for example as a secular change in brightness, larger range in the past, inaccuracies in some older data, or simply very erratic variations with rare bright and faint periods. Some (most, to be honest) of these magnitudes are for the combined ABC system, but the difference from A alone is tiny. I'm not sure we need to change anything in the starbox, except possible using the NSV numbers for the variable range. Discussion in the text would be difficult because there are no sources to cite, other than throwing out a whole slew of numbers which we shouldn't read too much into ourselves. Lithopsian (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Evolution?

Is it worth mentioning this paper where Saio et al debate whether or not Rigel (and Deneb for that matter) have already passed through a RSG stage? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Added. I was deliberately avoiding this since it hasn't really been picked up on or confirmed, but I added some text that isn't too absolute. Lithopsian (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah...to me it seems a little counterintuitive for some reason. They're basing it on some incongruous results and argue in their own paper it could be either anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a later paper, "solving" the CNO puzzle, but it still isn't widely-accepted that these are post-RSG stars. Most papers, implicitly or explicitly, treat them as coming straight from the main sequence to the BSG state. Lithopsian (talk) 22:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mass loss?

Chesneau's 2010 study is quoted by Moravejj. There is also a further study to look at. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a read and see about expanding that section. Might take a while, I haven't read that paper before. Lithopsian (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I put something in that I think will be informative and hopefully not too abstruse. Lithopsian (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Lithopsian: that reads well. Would 'loop' be a link to Coronal loop? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Close enough. I linked it. Lithopsian (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More pictures?

There are some pictures, but I think maybe one or two more might be good with all the extra text now. There's a whole category for Rigel at Commons, but nothing jumps out as being essential for the article. Lithopsian (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree..it's slim pickings there. I hate the blue sphere depictions as there is no guarantee it is round like the Sun. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moravveji et al. (2012) says, "Chesneau et al. (2010) ... speculate that Rigel is observed with its rotation axis along the North-South direction at significantly high inclination angle" and "Assuming a high inclination angle, the rotation velocity is well below 20% of the estimated critical breakup rotation rate of ~185 km/s, so spherical symmetry can be safely assumed for its geometry." I think that might allow us to use a simple blue sphere illustration. The article probably also needs a sentence or two on its rotation. Praemonitus (talk) 20:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am lukewarm to mildly negative on the idea but if @Praemonitus and Lithopsian: are keen for a pale blue ball image then ok.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would it make sense to have an orbital heirarchy chart like the one on Castor (star)? I'm not clear that the heirarchy is fully understood though. Praemonitus (talk) 15:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Would be good. Although the hierarchy isn't 100% clear, there is a reasonable current consensus along the lines of this. We can, and do, describe the uncertainties in the text. Lithopsian (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Draft version posted above. Please correct if needed. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 22:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a great idea. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:24, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How about more like this? More hierarchical, although wider. 81.107.144.11 (talk) 18:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This new version is clearer. I like it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it looks clearer now. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 16:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Praemonitus and Lithopsian: I can't find anything on Beta Orionis D apart from in Kaler, who suggests (if it is indeed part of the system) that it has an estimated orbit of 250,000 years. Is it worth putting this on the system chart in a different colour, noting it to be only a possible member? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:25, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Its what we'd call original research, except it has actually been published by somewhat reliable source outside Wikipedia. I don't think you'll find any other sources, there just isn't enough information known to make a reliable guess. The orbital period really is quite speculative, making massive assumptions about its distance in front or behind Rigel. The "quarter-million years" is actually a minimum orbital period, assuming the system is even gravitationally bound. For other properties, Gaia DR2 has published a temperature, radius, and luminosity, based on its colour, brightness, and distance. It is shown as slightly cooler, larger, and more luminous than the sun. I condensed this into one word, "sunlike", but we could say slightly more if you want. FWIW, Gaia DR2 places it about 40 pc beyond Rigel based on the Hipparcos distance for Rigel. Or 40 pc closer than Rigel B based on its more accurate Gaia parallax. Lithopsian (talk) 17:37, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with pictures on this article, or on pretty much any article about a star, is that there's hardly a selection of pictures to choose from. Because the star is so unimaginably far away, pretty much every picture of it is going to be either an artist's impression or a nondescript spot of light. It's not like anyone's getting any good-quality close-up photographs of it any time soon. JIP | Talk 23:29, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pictures of the people involved in the history of understanding Rigel. Technical pictures of various spectroscopic things related to inferring properties of Rigel. Just a couple suggestions, Attic Salt (talk) 23:45, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Remaining things...

When I get some time, I'm planning on checking a few bits in the last two sections, which are still a bit messy. The stuff is obscure and not especially germane to the rest of the article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Lithopsian and Praemonitus: can you see anything else to do before a GA nom? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the refimprove tag as about 98% of the article has inline citations. If this tag were relevant, probably 95% of wikipedia articles could be tagged in the same way.

@Arianewiki1: I know you placed the tag originally related to Kaler and the hypothesis about the Bayer Designation. If you have an idea of a specific earlier source then tell me. I can't find Webb nor know who he is. Similarly with other questions of magnitude etc. I am happy to write something just not sure what. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:32, 8 February 2019 (UTC)\[reply]

This article is a mess, with many cites being misused or biassed to meet unfounded interpretation. Thomas Webb 'Celestial Objects' is a common source. Either get consensus or leave the template. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arianewiki1: Webb does not mention anything about Bayer in his book. He does note that Betelgeuse was brighter than Rigel in some observations by Herschel but that's it. So that leaves us with Kaler as the person who linked the brightness with the Bayer desginations and neither of the sources you. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

These reasons are no excuse to remove tags, especially as there is no consensus. Having cites here are not the problem, it is the selected cites require additional verification because they are not necessarily reflect facts nor basic knowledge about Rigel. e.g. Looks like biassed selection. If this article is going to get GA status this must be fixed. To fix it requires other independent editors to check. As for Webb, I claimed no such thing. Bayer is irrelevant. Herschel discovered Betelgeuse was variable , commenting that it was sometimes brighter than Rigel. Kaler's comment is certainly not his 'discovery'. I did not add the tag because of Kaler, it is because of the issues with whole article not just a singular issue.

Again. Do not remove this tag again until these conditions are satisfied. Please read tagging, detag and the Verifiability policy adopted here. As said: "Similarly, editors occasionally remove tags without solving real problems because they are abashed by the tag, do not want additional attention from other editors, or do not like tags." This applies directly here IMO. Note: I have also restored the removed dubious article tag. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:40, 10 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arianewiki1: "consensus" doesn't mean whatever you think. Now you're changing your story about Herschel, Webb and Kaler. Okay, that is settled. List specific faults instead of just some global statement. I asked you to explain the magnitudes above and you didn't, which suggests you are just tagging because you have an axe to grind rather than wanting to improve the article. If you explain issues then we can act on them, otherwise I can't assume you're acting in good faith. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Using tactics like this is unacceptable behaviour. I have little choice but to use the policies of DR. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You could start with the apparent magnitude issue - I don't follow how Hauck measured it and how it was better than what is in the article now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs)

Who cares. There is a problem with the stated magnitudes, and it is clear it needs to be fixed if the article is ever to achieve GA. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:47, 11 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per Template:More_citations_needed/doc, "This template should be used only for articles where there are some, but insufficient, inline citations to support the material currently in the article". This article clearly does not satisfy the criteria. Use common sense and apply inline citations to the specific issues. Repeatedly posting the same template is WP:POINTy. Praemonitus (talk) 14:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Given that the star has a (positive) radial velocity away from the Sun and is stated to be considerably closer than the Orion Nebula by the article, how then does "projecting Rigel's [prior] path through space for its expected age brings it close to the nebula"? Praemonitus (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the source and it does not in fact agree with the statement in the article. I've tagged it with 'dubious'. Praemonitus (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Orion nebula is of course moving (or the sun is, depend on your point of view), but not in a radically different way to Rigel. I agree that the source doesn't support what the article says about Rigel, although it does leave the door open on Betelgeuse. I'll change it. Lithopsian (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There's a reason none of the references given for this article use the term Rigel A (some journal papers do use the term Rigel A when explicitly referring to the separate components, but this is very much a minority usage). Several reasons, even. Consistency is good, but using the term Rigel A consistently throughout the article simply makes it more wordy, and in most cases more confusing for the lay reader who doesn't much care about anything other than the blue supergiant. Oh, and Rigel A is also wrong, if we want to be strict about it. Even Rigel B is dodgy. Rigel is the blue supergiant, and nothing else. The IAU has even formalised that. Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; β Orionis arguably does; WDS J05145-0812 definitely does, although interestingly it isn't in the starbox. Using the term Rigel A (or B) might be justified in isolated cases where we need to be explicit about distinguishing components, but where we also want to use the Wikipedia article title, but we shouldn't use it "consistently" because we'd be imposing our own interpretation of "right" on the world. Lithopsian (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree with that -it's how all stars that are part of binary systems are called. The IAU has muffed that slightly but maybe it actually clarified it a bit. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:02, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then the article needs to make clear what is being discussed, because right now it's downright ambiguous. Praemonitus (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again. Notorious Lithopsian looks like they are just making things up when they actually don't understand. Anyone who challenge them has the attitude of just ignoring. [7] Saying : "Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; "The IAU has even formalised that. " Eh? It is plaining referring to the double star component. Any intelligent person would realise that the distinction is due to the star being a spectroscopic binary, SB9 307. Determination of spectral type and stellar parameters depends on separation of the spectral lines, hence the Rigel A and Rigel B for components.

The only thing that is right is this statement: "…because we'd be imposing our own interpretation of "right" on the world." Pot . Kettle. Black. Either understand conventions or leave editing to others. Praemonitus seems the only one here with objectivity seeing this.[8] I'm sick to death of educating those who pretend to be "experts". Really, Lithopsian!![ Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, for me it's just a matter of internal consistency within the article. I'm fine with what appears to be the preferred approach of applying the name Rigel to the primary. As long as it is consistent for the readers. Praemonitus (talk) 15:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So the question is now whether Rigel B etc. are all strictly Beta Orionis B etc. Be good to find a source discussing the names before this (using Rigel A), which has now been superceded...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:07, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Praemonitus:Look. If you are referring to double star components, the convention is simply the discoverer abbreviation, catalogue number, then the component relationships. e.g. For Rigel it is STF 668A,BC, or BU 555AD, BU 555BC. Astrometric or unresolved components are Aa or Bb, etc. Double stars are measured between components, and this becomes complicated in multiple systems. Measures of distance or position angle for AB, AC, BC are explicit. Referring to components is STF 668A or BU 555D, but for the bright stars with Greek letters, β Ori A or β Ori D is used. There are other variants. You can look at WDS Notes section [9] under : 05145-0812 STF 668 (note the uncertainties with some of these Rigel components.)

References of use also depend on the convention of how the object is observed. e.g. Spectroscopic observations use something like β Ori A or Rigel A. Radio or X-ray observation would use Rigel A. As astronomers have much interest is supermassive bright stars like Rigel, it makes sense to implicitly refer to Rigel A, and not the multiple system per se. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Does the section Rigel#Stellar system need to be moved so that it comes before discussion of the properties of individual components of the system? The multiplicity is mentioned in the lead, but the body discusses the components before it defines what they are. Lithopsian (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer presenting the astrometric information first, then move inward to the local characteristics. Hence, if it were up to me, I would have it ordered as follows: Observation, Distance (plus kinematics), 'Stellar system', 'Physical characteristics' (including Spectroscopy, Variability, and Mass Loss), then 'Etymology and cultural significance' and 'In modern culture'. Praemonitus (talk) 15:46, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Clear understand double star nomenclature is needed, which seems poorly misunderstood by editors here. IAU Commission 26 is the guide here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine and thanks for clearing it up, just make sure you right in grammatical English. Also, need a ref for Burnham. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I did that, but Praemonitus reverted my edit while I was still fixing the inconsistencies. I actual lost the following edit that was to come. Burnham needs no edit, as BU is the abbreviation for him, with the WDS giving the date of the first measure. Arianewiki1 (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a mind-reader. The {{in use}} template is available for when you're making numerous edits and don't want to be disrupted. Praemonitus (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No accusation here. I was only pointing out the confusion with correcting the grammar (and trying to restore lost cites and text). I don't know about this template, so thanks for that. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've just made a second reedit of this section, fixing and reverting some of the continuing misunderstanding of conventions wrongly adopted by Lithopsian. The link to the WDS is to the Notes & Catalog, listed here.[10] (Notable too the ADS designation is mostly irrelevant.) I have expertise in this area (published author), and suggest you discuss this on the talk page if you are uncertain or have questions. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then don't write rubbish sentences like, " Rigel is observed as a multiple star comprising possibly up to five or six components." . Does the WDS catalog explicitly mention Burnham? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The statement is plainly fact. Read the WDS catalogue. The WDS Notes also cast doubt on the existence of some of these components. The link to Burnham can be found in the "Introduction" and "References and discoverer codes"[11] Bu (or β ) Burnham. A multiple star is simply three or more stars in a system. (See WMC on the same linked page.[12]) The catalogue gives:

05145-0812STF 668A,BC  1781 2017  122 202 204   6.5   9.4  0.3   6.8  B8Iae:
05145-0812BU 555AD    1878 2017    7   2   1  44.5  44.5  0.3  15.4  B8Iae: 
05145-0812BU 555BC    1878 2005   25  55  30   0.3   0.1  7.5   7.6  B9

donating it is a multiple stars, the WDS Notes explain the possible additional components. BU=Burnham, 1878 is 'first date'

It is clear that the mind set is wrong here. Double stars are related by two stars, but the obsession is titled too much to each single component. It is the relationship in multiple stars between the double AB or A,BC or BC, etc are specific to avoid confusion e.g. distance or position angle or even determining gravitational attachment. If you are discussion the stellar characteristics of the star use the specific name. I.e. STF 668A.Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to claim this is all "rubbish" please know it is important to really get the facts straight first. Read Star systems#Designations and nomenclature again if you must. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Just write more clearly then. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:05, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is about knowledge, and those editing should have at least a gist of the subject matter. Lithopsian has presented an made several dozen wrong statements and edits, where the more that is said the further away the article is from achieving GA status. I have presented many times where some of the problems that exist only to have this individual cause as much grief and disruption as possible. They continue to present an 'alternative' interpretative views of many astronomical subjects, and frankly, show a complete lack of wisdom. When confronted with the facts and is shown to be wrong, this individual chooses to act like a victim and now thinks it OK to ignore me[13] when they are caught out . Yet again, why should I have to educate individual's edits, get them persistently reverted. e.g. Lithopsian reverted the discovery of STF668 by Herschel without any justification. Other state by them "Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; "The IAU has even formalised that." I obviously shown this to be utterly false. Even after explaining it in detail (as above), the revision comments shown in these edits[14] Is this evidence of either incompetence or deliberate disruptive editing? Frankly cleaning up the mess and also writing more clearly is a task for the brave. If you don't know about something, then just get out of the way from others that do. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you actually stuck to facts instead of padding your actual information with verbose patronising fluff then people might actually listen more. According to the WDS, it's not STF 668AB either but 668A,BC - so STF 668 for the system is more accurate than STF AB. Furthermore, wikipedia tries to avoid words like "current" and Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU (though clearly has been used up till the IAU proper name push). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:44, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, STF 668AB is correct, which is how the visual double is generally viewed, with the other components being visually unresolved. A multiple star is actually a number of double stars, and it is normal to express measures (Position angle and separation) as the primary star /component relationship. It is implicit. Hence, doubles making the multiple system of Rigel (five components) are STF 668AB, BU 555AC, BU 555AD, BU 555Ba, BU 55Bb. (Yet even pair BU 555 BC can be considered as correct.) STF 668A,BC is presented because the historical measures (used to find any motion over time) might be mixed between STF 668AB and BU 555AC, hence the comma.

As for "Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU…." On what evidence!! Please cite it. It is likely a fiction likely created by Lithopsian as a mere wrong opinion. (They don't know, and that was my whole point above.) Rigel B has been used in some of the literature, so even if it were dropped, it has been known as that. As I've previously said, the named is from the spectroscopic observations, whose components are revealed by multiple spectral line for each components. It has nothing to do with the IAU proper name push, it is just a adopted naming convention

BTW, there are possibly six components for Rigel, being the possible spectroscopic companion close to the primary (Aa). The article states: "spectroscopic companion to Rigel has been reported on the basis of radial velocity variations, and even an orbit calculated, but it is thought that the star may not exist and the pulsations are intrinsic to Rigel itself." This appear in the text, yet editors repeatably remove "five or six components." Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are almost zero instances of books, web pages, or scholarly articles calling the secondary 'STF 688B' or 'STF688B'. Hence it doesn't deserve much attention herein. Wikipedia isn't for promoting alternative names. Praemonitus (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Eh? The Starbox under "Details" give stars as 'A', 'Ba' 'Bb' 'C'. Referring to double stars STF 688AB are stars STF 688A and STF 688B. It is implicit, and indicates each visual component seen in the telescope even though is an unresolved triple with other sub-components. e.g. STF 688AB=STF 688A and STF 688B, STF 688B= BU 555B and BU 555C. BU 555B=BU 555Ba and BU 555Bb. This is how the WDS Notes are divided, as STF 688 in the first column, then the notes body referring to individual stars A or B, etc. In fully this is STF 688A.

This is far from promoting alternative star names. The problem of naming components of multiple stars have been an issue for several decades and has been discussed in detail to standardise conventions, and has as yet not been fully resolved. (I.e. exoplanets is a further complication.)

Plainly, STF 688AB refers to the double star system, while STF 688A or STF 688B refers to individual stars. 23:42, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I have reverted Praemonitus last aggressive edit on this issue as I feel there is a misunderstanding between defining double stars and individual stars, which is made more complex with multiple stars like Rigel. There is no ultimate standard convention used in double star astronomy in this instance, and having published material on this subject, I feel I have the necessary expertise to show the convention is explicit. In the telescope, the only component visible is the 'B' star. Using other observational methods, this is further divided into additional components, but how do you differentiate these components? Obviously, components can be viewed as a multiple star system (WMC scheme), a series of double stars (WDS scheme) or individual stars. Depending on the observational method and the astronomical discipline have differences in nomenclature. Differentiating in the case of Rigel is more complex compared to most stellar systems. As far as I'm concerned, the more implicit STF 688B, for instance, cannot be mistaken talking about the visible companion of Rigel. Using STF 688AB (or just STF 688) cannot be confused when referring to the visual double star.

In the end, disagree, fine, but it is probably better to get consensus. Really. The distinction of usage if overly picky as it cannot be misconstrued in its meaning. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

we can't deviate from the source. So either STF 668 or STF 668A,BC for the system. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've explained the reasoning, which you refused to listen too or just want too ignore. Reading Question 17 in the WDS Page[15] it implicitly says:

"When a component designation is given the relative position is of the secondary relative to the primary. For example, for an AB pair at 180 degrees and 3", in a polar coordinate system the A component is at the origin and the B component is at a position angle of 180 degrees (due south) at a separation of 3". Pairs such as AC or BC are measured in a similar manner. ...By default a simple binary is listed without components; the primary is understood to be A and the secondary to be B." However, due to the stars being in a multiple system this needs to be implicit. As said in WMC[16]: "the need for a simple, unambiguous, flexible, and computer friendly designation scheme for components of binary and multiple star systems,"

STF 688AB is an acceptable designation and does not defy any double star or WDS convention. STF 688AB cannot be confused when referring to the visual double star. Arianewiki1 (talk) 05:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to have misunderstood, so let me explain it more clearly then. The original statement was, "The secondary star is often referred to as Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B". From this the reader is led to deduce that the star is often referred to as "STF 688B". This is demonstrably not the case, since there are almost no readily available sources that do so. Ergo, I removed "STF 688B" from the sentence since it is plainly wrong. In fact, 'STF 688B' is a very obscure identifier that adds nothing for the reader, as is 'BU 555B'. These should be removed. Praemonitus (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Praemonitus: Way to easy. Go to SIMBAD[17] Use the identifier "**STF 668B" What do you get? Even the WDS says: "...By default a simple binary is listed without components; the primary is understood to be A and the secondary to be B." [18] Methinks this isn't a a very obscure identifier and is NOT "plainly wrong." BU 668B is implicit for a double/multiple component. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arianewiki1: SIMBAD is a database of accumulated information about the star, including identifiers. The presence of an identifier on SIMBAD says nothing of importance about the identifier, other than it exists. Nor does the identifier appearing in WDS make it particularly notable, other than to identify the discoverer. Instead you need to look at a range of sources and see how often it occurs. There is very little evidence of its notability in search engines, and we aren't here to promote obscure trivia on nomenclature. Plainly it doesn't belong except on a catalogue list, and if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier. There's a reason why WP:COMMONNAME exists. Praemonitus (talk) 23:44, 9 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Praemonitus: OK. See paper "The High Angular Resolution Multiplicity of Massive Stars" Table 3 pg. 38 [19] If experts like Mason and Hartkopf, who maintain the WDS and are on the IAU Commission 26, don't know then who does? If we talk about double or multiple stars, then the importance of the designation is paramount. STF 688B specifically identifies the visual component of Rigel seen in the telescope, but we know that the B star is composed of three stars not just one, which cannot be resolved. Your weakening argument above is mostly just clutching at straws, and trying to marginalise evidentiary facts for the sake of not being proven wrong. I have published material using this nomenclature and can claim am an expert on the subject, yet sheer novices, who know no better, think they can randomly tell others what identifiers are acceptable or not!

I have not "promoted" anything here (and saying so defies good faith), and it is not trivial on nomenclature. As for saying "...if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier" is laughable. In this instance, there are no other possibilities than Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B!!!! Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That paper doesn't contain Rigel in it, and just lists a whole bunch of alternate names. So what? AND what they use in the text is (surprise surprise) Bayer Designations or Henry Draper catalogue unless there is a specific reason not to. Also, after the way you often snipe at people, calling out someone on good faith looks grossly hypocritical to say the least. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A pretty weak response. Praemonitus is talking about convention of nomenclature not Rigel per se. They said "This is demonstrably not the case, since there are almost no readily available sources that do so. " I've provided and demonstrated an example the convention. (you think that over +120,000 systems, the usage might be "often" enough) As for the pointed out table is divided by designation e.g. 'Cluster, Other Designation' & 'V*, **, Other Designation' The second column is relevant double/multiple stars the second column has Bayer Designation or Henry Draper catalogue for individual stars. You could of had a point, but as you've said 'surprise, surprise', this B Star has neither! (Due to the saturation of the Plate towards Rigel, which blotted out this companion.) Again. The whole Section is about the double star/multiple star components. One would think it would be sensible to adopt the conventions used for double stars or multiple stars, even when showing evidence via SIMBAD, the IAU Convention that underlies it, the WDS, authors of a paper who maintain the WDS and are on Commission 26 of the IAU, and me who has used the convention. Plainly, the SIMBAD webpage for STF688B is a good enough cite and a reliable source.[20]

If such overwhelming evidence… well, at least there are other processes to use. Thanks for your input and contributions. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done with this article. There's too much disruptive behavior going on. Praemonitus (talk) 15:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fully understand....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:01, 12 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. So far no on has bothered with presenting an opposite support against my given cites. "Disruptive behaviour" means that this is deliberate tactic to interrupt the editing process. So far, no one has rationally followed the logic of the argument, and so far, especially Lithopsian, has not only has proven wrong opinion, yet has already engaged in disruptive behaviour. As for Praemonitus saying: "There's too much disruptive behavior going on". Prove it with real evidence, or just shut up. Really. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:46, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

O-kay, let's see what @Ritchie333 and Nick-D: might think. Hi folks (waves) we're getting tired of slow reverts ([21][22][23] (i.e. look at the tag and the proportion of text actually referenced), and confrontational comments. We're getting a bit worn out by the ad hominem comments. Scroll up this page. I'll add diffs later. Gotta run. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber: I have no opinion on the content; I don't understand what the issue is with citing SIMBAD since I thought that was an authoritative database with responsible fact checking, but this is not my area of expertise. As far as I'm aware, Ariane is still on a 1RR restriction, and if she is gaming it to get her own way with tags by reverting just outside the 24 hour window, then that's problematic. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Referring to SIMBAD is not a problem. Arianewiki1 is promoting obscure technical names that are not widely used. We're not saying they aren't invalid, just not common and so should not be replacing "β Orionis B" or "β Orionis C" in the body of the text. However elsewhere, umm...he seems ok with something that he later reverts. It just gratuitous negative comments like here and here. Plus he's been targeting Lithopsian. It's late here and I need to do some RL chores now before bed. Will try to clarify arguments tomorrow. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:42, 14 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The problem isn't the reverts, and I feel if there are other games going on, now seemingly three editors trying to trip me up and have me blocked again. I have presented in good faith valid cites and sources, and everytime, there is another weak excuse. SIMBAD gives the definition and in double star astronomy it is also used. I have even published material using this format. I've asked for supporting cites using "Beta Ori D" or β Ori D" or "Rigel D", but none have been presented. e.g. As I said above: "As for "Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU…." On what evidence!! Please cite it" (SIMBAD actually uses "Bet Ori".)

What is worst is complaining about some alleged ad hominem comments but it is perfectly OK for you to do so. e.g. "verbose patronising fluff" or "Then don't write rubbish sentences like,…." Yet when I say "If such overwhelming evidence… well, at least there are other processes to use. Thanks for your input and contributions." Praemonitus and Cas Liber uses the parting shot/excuse "There's too much disruptive behaviour going on". (I could use RfC or ask for independent opinion, etc. to get some resolution by consensus.) Here I was closing the debate, and have made no further edits with the main article. So where is this evidence of disruptive behaviour then?

As for accusation against Lithopsian. Well they think it perfectly OK to declare it is ignore me[24] The claim of disruptive editing made by them is here[25] If any editor is unwilling to engage in obtaining consensus means that any revert if they disagree is probably justified. This edit was justified[26], especially when they deleted the comment: "clarify |date=March 2019 |reason=The notation in the parentheses needs clarification for the reader.", which we were already properly discussing (and still discussing) within this same Talkpage here. Is this not even further evidence of disruptive editing by the same User? Yet in the same breath it is now claimed somehow I am "promoting obscure technical names that are not widely used.", when the evidence in this discussion says otherwise. Facts ultimately matter. In light of my own expertise in the subject, you are now basically insinuating that I'm lying.

Finally. It is pretty awful when someone tries to selectively push some argument of my alleged "gratuitous negative comments" like[27] , but seemingly that I struck-out and withdrew the alleged offending text[28] when your complaint was lodged. The second example is really weak and trivial. I've only attacked the ideas not the person, and corrected it if I did. Frankly, none of this holds water. Personal attacks are different from robust debate. If you still are unhappy, then continue this further with a WP:ANI, not here please. Arianewiki1 (talk) 05:54, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, we could used both designations, but that is also probably unacceptable. Lithopsian initial said in this thread: "As the body discusses the components before it defines what they are." The designations are still not defined not agreed too. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:15, 15 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This source does not say this. "component C (β Ori C)." : "Addressing confusion in double star nomenclature: The Washington Multiplicity Catalog [url=http://ad.usno.navy.mil/wds/wmc/wmc_post191.html]. See instead [29] (2000) & Transactions of the International Astronomical Union (1948) pg. 386-387. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:14, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The source focusses on what suffixes to use, obviously. That is its main thrust. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Utter garbage. Source does not say this at all. "β Ori C" is not stated at all, but the usage is instead BU 555C. (This is again properly explained here[30].) I've previously explained (above) that the name is not used this way, but it that is unacceptable! Either exactly quote the confirming fact in the document or this reference must be removed. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:52, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Implicitly, the source "New IAU Concepts of binary/Multiple Star Designations" by Dickel and Malkov says: [31]: "Due to historical reasons… Typically the resolved double star system receives a designation consisting of an acronym (based on the discovers' initials) and a number. The components are labeled A and B. If B is found later to be double, the primary retains the letter B and the secondary becomes "b" although some observers adopt Ba and Bb. If B's binary nature is discovered by a different investigator, the system receives a new designation and a number in addition to the component labels. The spectroscopic binary tend to be designated by their HD numbers and the individual components by A and B." This definition is black and white, without any interpretation. So far Cas Liber continues to avoid gaining consensus and ignores plain evidence or logical deduction is light of the facts presented. On the presented evidence, they are plainly biassed and unhelpful, and are unable to provide any valid cite for "β Ori C."

@Ritchie333 and Nick-D: NOTE: I have reasonably now provided sufficient evidence and four citable sources confirming nomenclature in this example. They continue to make obstructive edits with deliberate blocking tactics knowing full well of current restrictions on Arianewiki1 (not helped by Ritchie333 'outing' Arianewiki1 restriction above.) Any further changes, without either consensus or evidentiary citations, should be deemed as disruptive editing, which is sanctionable and could include things like a topic ban.

Other examples of this personal bias/attitude are : Parsecs come before light years and Exhausted H in core vs Almost exhausted H in core (which this[32] is used to justify a revert, when the text is this talkpage section says otherwise. Worst is initial statement by Cas Liber ,"So, are we saying that as stars move off the main sequence into giant phase, have they exhausted their core hydrogen or almost exhausted their core hydrogen....?" yet they don't even realise Rigel is not a main sequence star! However. they still feel they are competent to revert edits even after it is explained to them on the talkpage! Again, further evidence of deliberate bias and disruptive editing. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

When I said I have always used light-years, it is because that's what popular sources have used such this, this, this among other. Hence when astronomers write for laypeople, they use light-years. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:34, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ok - reading though, yes I can see now where the IAU has designated the WDS names, but then goes on to call Rigel BCD "useful but unofficial" hence they are anointing the name as popular. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:45, 24 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop editing the main page until you can get consensus and understand formal usage. Also stop ramming through changes before even discussing it within the article's talkpage, because every time you do, someone else has to fix the mess you leave behind. The recent edits here [33] are unacceptable mostly because the sources don't say this at all or are being manipulated to fit some cherry-picked notions that are not commonly used e.g. selected bias. Worse is that the article is about Rigel A, where the companion stars are discussed in the sub-section, and should be using the "official" and recognised system adopted within the WDS. These designation should be discussed there not in nomenclature. Also changing all the text from β Ori B to Rigel B, for example, has been done without consensus. Lithopsian was the one who added this, which was a justified compromise.[34] 'Rigel A' and 'Rigel B' in my opinion has been used by several sources, but 'Rigel C' and 'Rigel D' are not common at all. (Do you realise Rigel B refers to a combined three separate stars, while the VISUAL double star designations for each component. e.g. BU 555Ba, BU555Bb, BC 555C? (Here Rigel B=BU 555Ba+Bb+C) The reference I gave you above in "New IAU Concepts of binary/Multiple Star Designations" and WG Star name document says "For example, the name Fomalhaut specifically refers to the bright A component of a 3-star system." It does not say implicitly this applies to the other component stars. Fomalhaut C is not used, for example.

As for the crazy explanation above makes little sense. "...IAU has designated the WDS names" Says who? This only applies to the Catalogue of Star Names, but "In the IAU CSN, the components are clearly identified via their WDS identifiers" meaning "Typically the resolved double star system receives a designation consisting of an acronym (based on the discovers' initials) and a number. The components are labeled A and B." As for "...but then goes on to call Rigel BCD "useful but unofficial"". The sources makes no reference to Rigel BCD (whatever that is) at all. The source makes no claim that it is "useful but unofficial" but only uses the word "unofficial" and are "informal names." Either way, these are not IAU recognised and are not always used in the WDS. As for "...hence they are anointing the name as popular. " is nonsense. That is YOUR own twisted opinion not the IAU's. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is why I noted the BU and STF notations in the nomenclature. Which you undid. For no reason except that you regard "consensus" as anything that you agree with, even if no-one else does. No-one else thinks the Burnham and Struve numbers should be littered through the text, becuase they aren't used. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

At the bottom of page 5 of this it says, † "As these useful nicknames with the form [proper name] [letter component] often appear in the literature, many appear in the SIMBAD database."

here are two sources [35][36] that use Rigel B,C and D. The reason Rigel C and D are rarely seen is that they are rarely discussed or studied Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:50, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The section you cite Lithopsian is using "β Ori BCD" vs "Beta Orionis BCD" - not either vs Rigel BCD - and even then, you're not happy with anything with C or D anyway, so not much of a compromise Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:53, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber, Lithopsian, and Ritchie333:"….you're not happy with anything with C or D anyway" is an absolute falsehood.

How many times do I have to say it? The component designation officially is BU 555C or BU 555D. Rigel C or D, Beta Orionis C or D are not legitimate, but Rigel A or B (Beta Orionis A or B or β Ori A, β Ori B) is legitimate. Why can't you simply understand that?

When referring as a double star, use BU 555BC or BU 555AD, but referring to the whole multiple system it is WDS 05145-0812.

Also just writing e,g. "component C (BU 555C)" should be good enough, but this was revert too. Isn't this evidence of a compromise? Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you made your points clearly and succinctly, and write what is acceptable rather than what is not acceptable, then this would all work a lot easier. Congrats for actually posting something succinct just now, for bonus points you could actually put it near the RfC tag below so that it is easier for someone to see all opinions all in one place. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article is somewhat inconsistent in its usage of β Orionis vs β Ori (partly because I just added a bunch of β Orionis!). I would tend to use β Ori if it was just down to me, but usage in other star articles tends to stick to the full constellation names more often than not. Do we want to use the abbreviation consistently throughout, after appropriate introduction of the full name obviously? Lithopsian (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Even more nonsense. Use β Orionis first and once, then use β Ori thereafter. The obvious reason to do so is to make better readability. As for playing victim politics, it just makes you look weak Arianewiki1 (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please try to keep this discussion civil. Thank you. Praemonitus (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not particular really. It's more of a style issue. As long as the reader can follow the naming conventions and it's consistent across the article. Praemonitus (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Probably worth putting in (in as plain English as possible) how the different values for luminosity in the Physical characteristics were calculated, otherwise that section looks a bit odd with some wildly varying figures. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've added more explanations of how each value was derived. Lithopsian (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great - I think it helps demistify the section for the lay reader. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The section has now been rearranged largely into paragraphs dealing with each property one by one. It is certainly one way to go, but I think the information about how the various different values were derived has been lost. I can hardly read through the grammatical mistakes, maybe someone else can take a look and see if it is an improvement. Lithopsian (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article asserts that Rigel "is visible all around the world's oceans (the exception is the area within 8° of the North Pole)", for which Thomas Kerigan (1835) is cited. Relevant edit is here: [37]. I wonder, however, if this limitation of 8° applies only at certain times of the year (differs over the course of a year) and, furthermore, the cited source is pretty difficult to interpret on this issue. Can this issue be clarified? Thanks, Attic Salt (talk) 13:48, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good point - the source does not discuss its importance or where it is visible from. It just talks of calculations. Need to find another source and change sentence accordingly. It is 1am here and I need to get up in 5 hours. I'd be tempted to remove the sentence if nothing turns up. Will look more tomorrow if no-one else does overnight. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:06, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added the citation here, more as general support for the paragraph than any specifics about the problem claim. It was the best I could come up with. Lots of descriptions of the use of Rigel for navigation, very few explanations of "why". Lithopsian (talk) 21:00, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So, are we saying that as stars move off the main sequence into giant phase, have they exhausted their core hydrogen or almost exhausted their core hydrogen....? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:19, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

With this edit: [38] it is now said, in the lede, that Rigel has "started to exhaust" its hydrogen, but in the section on Physical Characteristics, it is said that the hydrogen is "almost exhausted". This will sound inconsistent to some readers, and it needs to be fixed. Attic Salt (talk) 11:34, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

changed to "depleted" and "largely exhausted" so they don't contradict each other. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:38, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The hydrogen fraction in the core is effectively zero by the end of the main sequence. Rigel is well past the main sequence. There is no "started to exhaust" or "almost exhausted", the hydrogen is gone from the core. The word exhausted is usually used, perhaps because it allows for the odd hydrogen nucleus still floating about in there unable to find a partner. Rigel is currently fusing hydrogen in a shell, possibly with some helium burning in the core, references available if we want to get specific. We probably don't because the models are uncertain and contradictory except for the basics. Lithopsian (talk) 16:41, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Do folks feel happy about this now for GAN? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:29, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"Rigel is well past the main sequence." is not quite true. A main sequence star is defined as luminosity class 'V' not 'Ib' as for Rigel. It is positioned near the main sequence on the H-R Diagram, but Rigel is not a main sequence star. High mass stars evolve almost immediately from the top left towards the top right of the HR Diagram, whose direction changes several times before going supernova. If the hydrogen were fully exhausted in a star it is likely to be a red giant not a blue star. Lithopasian is right in saying it is fusing hydrogen in the core is in a shell, but the energies being produced is mostly by other nucleosynthesis processes in the core (mostly helium burning. Hydrogen, however, is still being burnt, but the shell is slowly narrowing. The source of hydrogen is available by convection from the bulk of the star. When fuels are finally exhausted, the core collapses, creating the supernova. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unbelievable garbage, just plain wrong. You really need to consider your position wrt WP:CIR and stop disrupting everything that is written by almost every other editor. I have no doubt you will take that as a personal attack, but it needs to be said. Lithopsian (talk) 14:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I thought you were ignoring me…[39] However, I'll take these provocative and emotive comments with a grain of salt, because they will damage to you far more than they damage me. It is yet another example of trying to deflecting criticism just to hide one's own lack of wisdom or knowledge. Attempting 'accusing the accuser' is weak and boorish behaviour, made worst without even presenting actual evidence.

1. If you think Rigel is/was a main sequence star, then you certainly shouldn't be editing this article.
2. Plainly (from your own words) If Rigel is burning hydrogen in a shell in the core it can't also have exhausted all the hydrogen. Surely an open contradiction.
3. Direction changes across the HR Diagram (called blue loops) and recent research shows is enhanced by mass loss. (See "Physics of the blue-to-red and red-to-blue transitions in the evolution of massive stars - I. From blue to red" by Claudio Ritossa [40] for the general concept actually works. Many other sources discuss this.
4. James Kaler [41] also says: "Only about 10 million years old, Rigel should eventually expand to become a red supergiant very much like Betelgeuse is today, by which time it will be fusing helium into carbon and beyond in preparation for its eventual explosion as a supernova. (Given the various observational and theoretical uncertainties, it is also possible that the star has a somewhat lower mass of say 14 solar or so and that it is now fusing its helium after already having BEEN a red giant that shrank some and heated at its surface to return to blue supergianthood)"

As for this section, much of this whole section is just openly rewording James Kaler[42] Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:47, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lithopsian obviously doesn't think that and I am puzzled as to how you come to that conclusion. The shell and the core are generally held to be in different parts of the star. If Kaler is summarising then obviously the overall content is going to resemble it. There is no similarity of wording however. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"The shell and the core are generally held to be in different parts of the star." Nope. Stellar core : "A stellar core is the extremely hot, dense region at the center of a star. For an ordinary main sequence star, the core region is the volume where the temperature and pressure conditions allow for energy production through thermonuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium." Stellar cores can have structure depending on the age and mass of the star. Above any stellar core is the radiative zone. Dystopian astronomy at its worse.Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:19, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Parsecs are used before light years. The sources of distance in the references given state parsecs. (Except Burnham's) Usage is based on the measure of parallaxes of stars that are converted directly to parsecs. (Calculated as the inverse of parallax) It is also the IAU explicit definition and is an SI unit of measure. Convention is parsec (pc.) for stars, kiloparsecs (kpc.) for anagalactic objects and megaparsecs (Mpc.) for extragalactic galaxies. While expressing light years might make sense for novice readers, the usage should be parsec with light-years in brackets. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:01, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In case you hadn't noticed, we are writing for laypeople. Light-years is what is used in guidebooks etc. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Astronomical articles should be standard WRT units used. I've always used light-years. However, feel free to open an RfC on the issue on the astronomy wikiproject page. If the consensus is to use parsecs overall, I will abide by that Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:59, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"I've always used light-years." Explains a lot. Sources in the article trump anything else. All but one source uses parsecs. RfC or your opinion is irrelevant. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:41, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Open a guidebook. Sources are just measurements. If we had one using feet and inches we wouldn't be using them, would we. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:02, 23 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rigel has five stars requiring us to call them something in this article. They had been called Rigel A, Ba, Bb, C and D. However the IAU has ruled that the name "Rigel" applies to the main star, leaving some confusion as to the rest. SIMBAD lists as 'Beta Orionis B' here. At least two sources use Rigel B,C and D.[43] [44]. The IAU at the bottom of page 5 here says "As these useful nicknames with the form [proper name] [letter component] often appear in the literature, many appear in the SIMBAD database." but notes they are unofficial. Other names - STF 688B for Rigel B, and BU 555Ba, BU555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555 D for Rigel Ba, Bb, C and D respectively - are almost never used, and only rarely seen in journals. So we have a choice - Rigel A, Ba, Bb, C and D....Beta Orionis Ba, Bb, C and D...or...what? Can people denote their choices below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:09, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Me, I'd go with Rigel, and Rigel Ba, Bb, C and D (for A, Ba, Bb, C and D) as the most understandable and ones that are alreaady used in guidebooks. I am okay with Beta Orionis Ba, Bb, C and D and happy to change back (just I found sources using the former). Can everyone put down what they think and why below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:09, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• I'd prefer β Orionis Ba, Bb, C and D. The IAU, for I assume good reasons, has designated star names to apply to only one component, so for consistency I'd prefer to use the Bayer designations for the components. I have a recollection of having argued the other side of this in another article and eventually accepting the Bayer position. Tarl N. (discuss) 05:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• I'm not comfortable with Rigel B, Rigel C, etc. I've used them in the past, but their borderline status has been completely stamped on by the IAU. Using them now just risks confusion with Rigel officially only applying to component A, even to component Aa if it turned out to be a spectroscopic binary. This has been discussed to death elsewhere in Wikipedia and elsewhere; I think it was a poor decision but it has been made. Rigel B in particular was widely used, almost as a proper name, but using that for one component and not for the others would be even more confusing. The components should really be referred to wrt a multiple star designation, but I can see that the multitude of different designations, all of them somewhat unfamiliar alphanumeric codes, could be off-putting and confusing. That leaves β Orionis, or Latinised, or abbreviated, as an accessible but unambiguous compromise. It isn't a formal multiple star designation and it was never conceived as a designation for several stars, but equally it is not considered to apply only to a single component of a system. Lithopsian (talk) 14:40, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Beyond the collective designation for the stars is the designation for individual components. For example, the "star" discovered and named as Rigel B is (assuming the current accepted triple system) really component BC, β Orionis BC if you like. β Orionis B strictly only refers to the brighter of the close visual pair, so we need to be clear when we're referring to individual components. Again there is scope for confusion historically since Rigel B (or other designation for component B) was used for the unresolved pair (triple). Less trouble with spectroscopic pairs since β Orionis B includes both β Orionis Ba and β Orionis Bb. Lithopsian (talk) 14:49, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I concur with Tarl N and would prefer β/Beta ..., as stated above. Thanks AhmadLX (talk) 17:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a poorly constructed RfC that clearly fails even the basic guidelines on Request for Comment, especially RfCBrief and the initial statement is a long way from neutral POV.

There are questions here.

1. The nomenclature for the primary star. Rigel A, Beta Ori A or β Orionis A
2. The nomenclature for the visual double star companion. Rigel B, Beta Ori B or β Orionis B
3. The double/multiple star designations used by the IAU towards named IAU Isingle stars here
4. The double/multiple star designations used by the WDS & IAU Commission 26 'Double stars" and traditionally adopted, as stated by the source "New IAU Concepts of binary/Multiple Star Designations" by Dickel and Malkov[45]:

The last point is explained as: "Due to historical reasons… Typically the resolved double star system receives a designation consisting of an acronym (based on the discovers' initials) and a number. The components are labeled A and B. If B is found later to be double, the primary retains the letter B and the secondary becomes "b" although some observers adopt Ba and Bb. If B's binary nature is discovered by a different investigator, the system receives a new designation and a number in addition to the component labels. The spectroscopic binary tend to be designated by their HD numbers and the individual components by A and B." This definition is the 'official' one. I've called in expert help to is resolve this RfC which is deliberately biassed to enforce a viewpoint. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:12, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's an assumption of bad faith (not surprising) and you can't just answer the question but (again) have to go on a spray complaining and exaggerating. Are you actually able to succinctly state what terms you'd use for what? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:11, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The RfC actually says "Other names - STF 688B for Rigel B, and BU 555Ba, BU555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555 D for Rigel Ba, Bb, C and D respectively - are almost never used, and only rarely seen in journals." is openly discounting the usage even though it IS the official recognised method of designation!! It's 'rarity' in usage is irrelevant.

My four points above are the possibilities of usage, but according to the RfC the "So we have a choice - Rigel A, Ba, Bb, C and D....Beta Orionis Ba, Bb, C and D...or...what?."

Usage depends on the type of object that is being described.

• If it is a main star, then Rigel A or β Ori A is acceptable.
• If you are talking just about the main visual double star companion, then Rigel B or β Ori B is acceptable
• If you are talking about the multiple star, it is WDS 05145-0812 is acceptable
• If you are talking about the individual stellar components (in the section 'Stellar system') then STF 688A, BU 555Ba, BU 555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555D is acceptable.
• If you are talking about the individual double stars (in the section 'Stellar system') then STF 688AB or just STF 688, BU 555Ba,Bb, BC 555AC and BU 555AD: or even BU 555BC is acceptable.
• Outside the section 'Stellar system' use either Rigel A or β Ori A and Rigel B or β Ori B OR write "component 'C'", 'D'. etc.
• Inside the section 'Stellar system' use either STF 688A, BU 555Ba, BU 555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555D OR write "component 'C'", 'D'. etc OR OR write "component 'C' (BU 555C)", 'D'. etc. Once stated, then use "component C"

Frankly, it is impossible to reduce complex nomenclatures across multiple disciplines. Simple usage of Rigel A or β Ori A for the main star that is mostly highlighted in the article, when once said, means Rigel. Simple usage of the double/ multiple star designation are used once e.g. Rigel C (BU 555C)", the referred as variations of "companion C" or "component C", etc.

Note: The usage is similar to other articles

• Castor (star) , but all the double/multiple star designations are missing. (the article uses Castor A but the starbox uses Castor A and α Gem Aa)
• Yet for Epsilon Lyrae is also inconsistent there are no double star designations nor explanation. Another is Xi Tauri which has a hybrid version of this.
• Fomalhaut says "Under the rules for naming objects in multiple star systems, the three components – Fomalhaut, TW Piscis Austrini and LP 876-10 – are designated A, B and C, respectively. On its discovery, the planet was designated Fomalhaut b." Fomalhaut C, under its subsection mentions it is WSI 138.
• Mu Orionis uses Mu Orionis Aa, etc. but ignores the double star designations of A 2715A & A 2715B.
• Usage for Zeta Ursae Majoris or Mizar has other inconsistencies too, which Lithopsian says " According to IAU rules, the name Mizar strictly only applies to component Aa, although it is traditionally and popularly used for all four stars making up the single naked-eye star."[46] (The IAU rules actually apply to the A star not Aa system.)

Again there is complete ignoring the designation system for double/multiple stars or have inconsistent usage.

My points made above for general usage would likely eliminate some the overall troubles. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:27, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS - the question was for this article. While a discussion on a general policy is probably a good idea, it should go on a project page, not here. Tarl N. (discuss) 01:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Arianewiki1: if the IAU has determined that "Rigel" only relates to Rigel A, that then means that Rigel A is no longer official...? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:12, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

To be pedantic (and avoid recursion), IAU has determined that Rigel applies to only β Ori A.^[1] Tarl N. (discuss) 06:12, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Peel, Modest Genius, and AhmadLX: - all input would be good here. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:04, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yet further faux pas. Canvassing in RfCs is not permitted here.Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:51, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you understand English? Can you see any part of this edit where I promote or recommend these to these three (3) editors support a particular point of view? Please explain. I am all ears, or revert your personal attack. These editors are nonpartisan and would not hesitate to offer a different opinion to mine. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:54, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333 and CasLiber: "These editors are nonpartisan..." According to whom? Canvassing says plainly "Canvassing is notification done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way, and is considered inappropriate. This is because it compromises the normal consensus decision-making process, and therefore is generally considered disruptive behavior." It is deemed as votestacking . So "If they continue, they may be reported to the administrators' noticeboard for incidents, which may result in their being blocked from editing." Remove the attach template again, and an ANI will likely result. (I've pinged Ritchie as a third person arbiter and will adhere to their advice.)

There are so many structural errors in the formulation of this RfC. It seems to be written to promote a singular viewpoint. When I give a reasonable response, but according the Cas Liber "Are you actually able to succinctly state what terms you'd use for what? " I give a more detailed explanation, I'm told by Tarn N "While a discussion on a general policy is probably a good idea, it should go on a project page, not here." You've been explained again and again of the complexity with these designations and the dependance on the disciplines, but you again insist (as stated in the RfC) "They had been called Rigel A, Ba, Bb, C and D.", when most sources and the advice above says no such thing. The IAU has TWO designations: Those recently added for IAU named single stars, the second is that assigned / supported by the IAU Commission 26 'Double stars'. Rigel A refers to the primary for the named star 'Rigel', but is also STF 688A using IAU Commission 26 conventions. Appropriate usage of both is reasonable. Surely the main article should reflect that fact?

The statement "No-one else thinks the Burnham and Struve numbers should be littered through the text, becuase they aren't used."[47] immediately suggests deliberate selective bias, and why the whole framework of the RfC is to promote a singular irrelevant viewpoint.This is even worse the falsehood stated here.[48], but is now seen as wrong here[49]. Yet the RfC now says "Other above names - STF 688B for Rigel B, and BU 555Ba, BU555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555 D for Rigel Ba, Bb, C and D respectively - are almost never used, and only rarely seen in journals. So we have a choice - Rigel A, Ba, Bb, C and D....Beta Orionis Ba, Bb, C and D...or...what?" This is why I've said about this RfC above:"... the initial statement is a long way from neutral POV." Who actually says this? Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:34, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pointing out they are rarely used is merely pointing out facts. Go find some journals (meaning plural) that use the notations then. Just to show the rest of us how commonly they are used. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:38, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Enough is enough. I'm done with being berated for what I write and seeing tactics that just aims to discredit. I've already before given four separate references (including SIMBAD) and have shown the usage, so your allegation stated above is obviously false.

As for saying: "Pointing out they are rarely used is merely pointing out facts." Yet you earlier said: ""No-one else thinks the Burnham and Struve numbers should be littered through the text, becuase they aren't used."[50] Which is it? (Have you ever considered the reasons that the C and D components are rarely used is only because they are rarely studied or observed? They are regularly observed for indication of motion, whose results are kept by the US Naval Observatory and given in the WDS.[51] BU 555D has been observed 7 times, BU 555C 25 times. There a few external journals highlighting these stars as the brightness of Rigel itself makes further studies difficult. Quite a few of these measures are unpublished and just sent directly to the USNO. The B component has been measured 125 times as well.)

When I do state as a reasonable suggestion "Outside the section 'Stellar system' use either Rigel A or β Ori A and Rigel B or β Ori B OR write "component 'C'", 'D'. etc." Inside the section 'Stellar system' use either STF 688A, BU 555Ba, BU 555Bb, BC 555C and BU 555D OR write "component 'C'", 'D'. etc OR write "component 'C' (BU 555C)", 'D'. etc. Once stated, then use "component C"

Yet just going to SIMBAD and search for all objects around Rigel out to 5 arcmin, you only get three objects. bet Ori, STF 668 and Beta Ori B[52]. Going to Beta Ori B. has identifiers SFT 668B, comprised of the double star BU 555BC.[53] THERE IS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES FOR THESE DESIGNATIONS! So the question for you. If Rigel A, etc. are the 'unofficial' IAU designations, then what are the 'official' IAU designations for the components then? 02:31, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

The "In modern culture" section reads:

See also: Rigel in fiction

The MS Rigel was originally a Norwegian ship, built in Copenhagen in 1924. It was requisitioned by the Germans during the World War II and sunk in 1944 while being used to transport prisoners of war.^[1] Two US Navy ships have borne the name USS Rigel.

The SSM-N-6 Rigel was a cruise missile program for the US Navy that was cancelled in 1953 before reaching deployment.^[2]

The Rigel Skerries are a chain of small islands in Antarctica, renamed after originally being called Utskjera. They were given their current name as Rigel was used as an astrofix.^[3] Mount Rigel, also in Antarctica, is also named the star.^[4]

None of these are actually about Rigel. They're about other things that just happen to be named "Rigel". The section should be renamed, reorganized or moved to a disambiguation page. JIP | Talk 10:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Err, they were all named after the star. I get your point though and am pondering. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:59, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they are all named after the star, but none of them are the star. Therefore this section is more like "Things named after Rigel in modern culture". JIP | Talk 11:51, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References