Says who? Why don't you read both Movses Khorenatsi and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Dasxuranci) for a change, especially the latter, as the primary source, who makes clear that Utik, Artsakh were Albanian, and that even Syunik was independent of Armenia. --adil 20:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Karabakh was historically a Armenian region, Moses depends on his works some may be folk tale mixes etc, lots of things to point out on the verifiability of the content. Artaxiad 00:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Moses is still the "Father of Armenian history" as he is described, and his source is not the only one, look at any authoritative source, all of them will say the same. Karabakh is a historic region of Azerbaijan, and before that, of its predecessor state, Caucasian Albania. --adil 00:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So? that does not change anything, and it is NOT a historic region of Azerbaijan keep trying, just because supposibly its predecessor state is Caucasian Albania does not change anything, it was Armenia's, as Eupator pointed out they never reached far west foolish of me into thinking that. Artaxiad 00:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You make all those wild, off the mark claims with Eupator, but never present a single fact to prove your groundless claims. All sources show that Karabakh was a historic region of Azerbaijan and before that, of its predecessor state Caucasian Albania, and that the only time when Armenian might have had any control was under the ethnically Persian or Parthian -- in any case of Iranic origin -- Tigranes the Great. Before him Armenia was ruled by Persians, after him Armenia was ruled by Parthians and many others. So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"? --adil 00:34, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So how does Karabakh become "historically Armenian"?. Probably because Armenians maintained broad forms of autonomy even under foreign rule.

lol

I'm sorry, but can you please point to me on a map where Azerbaijan was roughly located from the period of ∞ BC - 1918? (not the one below the river Araks, mind you)--MarshallBagramyan 00:53, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Karabakh is a wide region, which was popualted by Caucasian Albanians. This is true both for upper and lower Karabakh. Armenian presence in the lower part of Karabakh has been very minor, it was populated by Udis, and later by Turkic people. The capital of Albania Barda is also located there. So claims that Karabakh was historically an Armenian region is POV and contradicts known facts. It is better to not make any mention of historical claims in the intro. Grandmaster 10:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Right....:rolls eyes: --MarshallBagramyan 20:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster give me one good historian who actually says this, Karabakh was part of Armenia for hundreds of years its widely known Azerbaijan has nothing to do with it except for the fact the war that was started. Artaxiad 23:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I already explained Karabakh has a lot more to do with Albania than Armenia, the capital of Albania was located in Karabakh. No need to insert controversial claims into this article, considering that you failed to include them into NK article. Grandmaster 06:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

oh dear. All I wanted to do was make maps, you know. Make maps... --Golbez 08:22, 26 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:

"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."

(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")

"[Karabakh was a] part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."

(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)

The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)

V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."

One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.

Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).

Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."

Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: [5]: "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. --adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

also, on the "Armenian" meliks and in general, about the "historic" Armenian "gavar" of Karabakh (Utik and Artsakh), you all seem to forget one of the most famous Armenian patriotic writers, a very nationalistic, pro-Armenian author, who relied only on Armenian chroniclers for his research, Raffi and his "Melikdoms of Khamsa" [6]:

Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк.

...

Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.

...

II

1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.

Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.

...

3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.

Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. --adil 10:18, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

             Dude stop bullshitting yourself. According to Movses Khorenatsi and Movses Kaghankatvatsi, Artsakh was the original 
             dominion of a certain Aran who was the progenitor of the House of Aranshahik - "the ancient native Armenian family". Aran  
             was called “the Aghu” (meaning amiable in Armenian) because his good manners. The genealogy of Aran (old spelling: 
             Eran, hence: Eranshahik) is preserved by the historiographer Movses Kaghankatvatsi, who wrote that Aran belonged to the 
             lineage of the ancient patriarchs and kings of Armenia, including Hayk, Armeneak, Aramayis, Gegham, Aram, Ara the 
             Beautiful, Haykak, Norayr, Hrant, Perch, Skayordi, Paruyr, Hrachea, Ervand (Orontes) Sakavakeats, Tigranes et al.

             Aran was appointed by the King Valarsace of Armenia as hereditary prince (nahapet or genearch) over the plain of Arran  
             until the fortress of Hnarakert. Aran is also known as the divine eponym and the first governor of the Caucasian 
             Albanians, appointed by Vagharshak I the Parthian.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.241.30 (talk) 06:03, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply] 

This quote has no reference and is an unsubstantiated POV, which lays at the source of the actual Karabakh conflict. As it's an unsubstantiated and POV quote, I will be making an edit to remove it. Atabek 17:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historically means for a long time - pls. artaxiad provide your reference--Dacy69 21:08, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Historically does not mean long time it means past events, I still have yet to see references from you. Artaxiad 21:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's entertaining. Since you are inserting your claim, please bring your reference. Then we will talk.--Dacy69 22:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Than your not supposed to revert you simply add the fact tag. Artaxiad 00:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, the above references, including from Armenian sources, show clearly that there is no basis whatsoever for the POV claim of "historically Armenian region". --adil 03:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, Karabakh is not majority Armenian population -- even after ethnic cleansing, at least half of the IDPs from there, 300,000-400,000 people, live in Barda and other cities, towns and villages of Karabakh. Meanwhile its true that Armenian forces occupy most of Karabakh, and that should be reflected. --adil 03:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted to an early version since its better how it was until people started messing around with the article. Artaxiad 02:42, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted it back since it's better when there is more sources, references and links from authoritative and academic sources. The article provides more valuable info to the reader this way, why did you remove GSE reference, etc? adil 03:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What are these "citation needed" inserted for? There is a link to the NK article, which covers all those subjects -- why do you need to insert that, just for the sake of spoiling the article? adil 03:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Follow Wikipedia Guidelines and add them. Artaxiad 03:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We desperately need a map of the region, not just Upper Karabakh but the whole thing, so I can see just how much is controlled/occupied/owned by what side. --Golbez 21:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia does not claim the whole Karabakh, so I removed a claim that the region is disputed between two countries. The region is very large and extends down to the junction of Kura and Araks rivers. Armenia claims NK and some adjacent highland territories of Azerbaijan. The map of Karabakh would indeed be very helpful. Grandmaster 04:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the word Azerbaijani from the part where it says Karabakh is an Azerbaijani word. The source says that Karabakh has Turkish and Persian roots. VartanM 07:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, bag is a loan word from Persian in Azerbaijani language. That's how kara and bag became combined into one word. Grandmaster 07:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VartanM, word Karabakh in Azerbaijani means black garden, hence it's been agreed upon earlier that it's Azerbaijani term. Armenians designate the region with it's Caucasian Albanian name of Artsakh. Atabek 13:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atabek, the reason I removed the "Azerbaijani word" was because the source says its Persian and Turkish. If you can provide a source that both words are Azerbaijani from an Azerbaijani dictionary it can stay. VartanM 20:15, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VartanM, both lowland and highland of Karabakh are officially parts of Azerbaijan. So no need for original research and/or generalizations. Yerevan is not a town in South Caucasus, it's a capital of Armenia. Thanks. Atabek 13:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

False comparison. A better comparison would be saying whether Stepanakert is a town in Azerbaijan or Nagorno-Karabakh. To me, it seems more neutral to state it's in the South Caucuses, since there's a legitimate dispute over ownership. ---- Golbez (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atabek, Karabakh both highland and lowland are under Armenian control, there is no need to turn this into a political article. If I wanted to push POV, as you're accusing me of doing, I would write something about it being historic Armenian region and how great it is that Armenia liberated from Azerbaijan. But all I did was apply the most neutral term to a geographic article. -- VartanM (talk) 17:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lowland Karabakh is not under the Armenian control, only a part of it (Agdam) is. The rest of the lowland Karabakh (Terter, Barda, Agdjabedi, etc) is under Azerbaijani control and has Azerbaijani population. So saying that the region is not part of Azerbaijan is wrong, and highland Karabakh is also internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan. -- Grandmaster (talk) 18:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, whats the problem with Golbez's version? -- VartanM (talk) 18:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

VartanM, Karabakh both lowland and highland is not only under control but under occupation of Armenian forces. That's what 4 UN Security Council resolutions say. It's officially part of Azerbaijan and was never recognized as part of any other state or independent by anyone. Hence, it's region in Azerbaijan. -- Atabek (talk) 20:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Atabek, what does that have to do with a geographic article? -- VartanM (talk) 20:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is that Karabakh is a region in Azerbaijan, and most of it is not claimed by Armenia. NK is like 1/3 of the whole Karabakh or maybe even less than that. The highland part is also internationally recognized as part of Azerbaijan, so saying that the region is not in Azerbaijan is wrong and inaccurate. Grandmaster (talk) 06:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No one's saying it's not in Azerbaijan. But it is disputed territory, and therefore it's better to state its broader, non-political location first, then explain the politics. --Golbez (talk) 06:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Only a small part of it is claimed by the neighboring state, so it is not disputed. Plus, that small part is also recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster (talk) 06:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't matter how it's recognized, the fact is that it is disputed. Mention the non-political context first, then mention the political, any time the political is in any legitimate doubt. --Golbez (talk) 11:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster its not only claimed but also liberated/occupied/controlled/taken over/ by NKR and has been self governed since 1991. But that has nothing to do with this article. Again this is a geographic location, not a political one. Please lets leave politics out, at least from this article. I don't know who wrote this article but I like the fact that the war is mentioned at the very end, and not at the beginning, like the rest of NK related articles. Although my first edit overlooked the fact that Azerbaijan was removed from the article, I find Golbez's version very neutral VartanM (talk) 06:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This page is about the region, for political expressions/positions/opinions there is Nagorno-Karabakh Republic POV fork. Atabek (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This region is located in Azerbaijan, both Armenian occupied highland part and Azerbaijani controlled lowland part, which extends to the junction of Kura and Araks. I don't think this could be disputed. Grandmaster (talk) 05:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karabakh is not in Armenia. Grandmaster (talk) 08:12, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is! Karabakh is a geographical-historical region, right? And this geographical-historical region uncludes also Syunik-Zangezur. This is not my own opinion, I draw on the works of the Karabakh-Armenian historian Arakel Babakhanian ("History of Armenia" volume 3, foreword) and others. --Vacio (talk) 13:27, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"History of Armenia" volume 3, foreword by Karabakh-Armenian historian Arakel Babakhanian is not reliable source from NPOV. Gülməmməd ^Talk 18:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arakel Babakhanian is regarded as the most prominent Armenian historian of modern history. Why you think he isn't reliable? Moreover, History of Armenia was written at the beginning of the 20th century, before the present-day conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh, thus detached from political motives.--Vacio (talk) 15:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There have been many political "motives" since long ago between these countries especially in the beginning of the 20th century. We, therefore, cannot accept such sources as the neutral and reliable sources from point of view of the material that is presented in the article. And also, the map is useless, doesn't indicate anything about the region clearly. Finally, Karabakh is in Azerbaijan not in Armenia. Gülməmməd ^Talk 15:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gulmammad, Zangezur/Syunik is part of this region, thus Karabakh lies in both Armenia and Azerbaijan. If you don't trust Armenian sources or Russian maps, there are also Azerbaijani sources argueing the same. Mirza Jamal for example.--Vacio (talk) 06:17, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mirza Jamal does not say that KArabakh was part of Armenia. Please cite reliable sources. Grandmaster (talk) 05:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia nor Azerbaijan had official borders at the time. Mirza Jamal includes Zangezur in Karabakh, as do Armenian sources. Thus a part of the Karabakh region is in the moden Republic of Armenia, an other part in the modern Republic of Azerbaijan. --Vacio (talk) 07:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mirza Jamal includes Zangezur not in Karabakh, but Karabakh khanate. That khanate included at various times various territories, such as Ganja, Nakhichevan and even Ardabil. It does not mean that all those territories were part of geographic region of Karabakh. The geographic region of Karabakh does not include any areas in Armenia, you cited no reliable sources about that. Grandmaster (talk) 07:44, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Karabakh region existed centuries before the Karabakh khanate, which was established around 1750 and remained till 1823. Mirza Jamal says: "As it is written by ancient historians the boundaries of Karabakh vilayet are the following..." and adds that the western border of Karabakh is the Zangezur Ridge: "...the high mountains of Karabakh, called Kyushek, Salvarty, Erikli..." Mt. Salvarty (3.160 м) even falls within the Shakhbuz rayon of the Nakhichevan Republic. --Vacio (talk) 11:29, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I removed POV and OR linked to maps by blogger Andrew Andersen. Follow the discussion at Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh to find out why blogger-made maps aren't acceptable in conflicting cases. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I propose to remove (temporary) the section about Johan Schiltberger and look for other sources to confirm or to contradict his reports. After all this article is about Karabakh, not Johan Schiltberger and should not contain information about which is not related with the first. --Vacio (talk) 16:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what new this quote adds to the article. It just confirms that the region was populated by both Armenians and Muslims, and that Shiltberger had no knowledge of geography and believed everything his Armenian friends were telling him. It should be removed, permanently. --Grandmaster 06:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think it's an interesting fact that a prominent traveller visited Karabakh in the 15th c.. The quotation however makes it too long, after all this article is about Karabakh not Schiltberger or his journey. Anyhow, the quotation is needless and Ill remove it. --Vacio (talk) 22:17, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To anonymous IP editor. Please, do not remove Azerbaijan templates from the page, it's counter productive. Atabəy (talk) 18:16, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article is long enough to remove all stub templates. After all A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text which is too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject, but not so short as to provide no useful information. --Vacio (talk) 09:31, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Karabakh (the whole thing) is at least partially in Azerbaijan, so it's not POV to include templates (stub or otherwise) pertaining to Azerbaijan. --Golbez (talk) 16:51, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Except for Zangezur, it is in Azerbaijan, i.e. 90% of it is in Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 04:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Muslims of that period in Karabakh are known as Azeris (Azeri Turks) of today, just like Christians in Karabakh are now known as Armenians. So I added a reference to Karabakh Khanate being called Azeri. If we are to go back renaming everything Azeri to Muslim (actually not very appropriate behavior for Wikipedia), we shall also investigate how ethnically Albanian population of Mountainous Karabakh suddenly became Armenian. Atabəy (talk) 18:04, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Golbez, I added a reference to an Armenian author, who indicates that the province was that of Caucasian Albania. Atabəy (talk) 21:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okeydoke. :) --Golbez (talk) 22:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chorbajian does not call Artsakh a "province" of CA and Hacikyan deals with Armenian medieval literature so I think it is irrelevant to the status of Artsakh in ancient times. Indeed Robert Hewsen, the author of many works dealing with the status of Artsakh / the Principalities of Karabakh in various historical periods, indicates that it has never been a "province", nor even "a recognized political entity" as it already has been discussed. --Vacio (talk) 06:15, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But it was a region within Caucasian Albania. Grandmaster 06:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was part of CA in early medieval times, I have noted that in the article. --Vacio (talk) 06:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vacio, there is no sufficient justification for removing Rywkin reference. Atabəy (talk) 06:44, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I added a fact tag to the claim that local government in Shahumian claimed to join the so-called "NKR". Shahumian was under full control of Azerbaijan SSR by September 1991. Atabəy (talk) 22:22, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It presumably had a local government, local politicians, local administrators, didn't it?

I have done some major rewriting for the history section of this article. Much of the rewriting has involved contentious information which user Quantum666 added several months ago, on the basis of a very flimsy and, to be quite frank, amateurishly written source (The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict: A Legal Analysis, by Heiko Krüger). It is a poor source, and one that is written as a legal treatise rather than a work on history (Krüger happens to be an attorney at law, and not a historian). After browsing through the pages, it’s clear that the author himself has shown poor judgment in selecting his sources, citing material from less than reliable sources such as Audrey Altstadt and as controversial figures as Farida Mammadova, a revisionist historian who has a proven track record of distorting information and reducing the historical role of Armenians in Artsakh/Karabakh, and coming up with flimsy conclusions (one of the reasons the Armenians of Artsakh were not Armenian, he says, was because they had Arabic names, which is highly inaccurate since Armenians simply liked to adopt such names, see the House of Hasan-Jalalyan article). His opinions in this article have consequently been replaced by individuals who are far more qualified to weigh in on the matter, namely historians.

Even worse, there are points in the book where it seems that he is consciously misinterpreting a source and ignoring the evidence of the very people he is citing. Among the most basic mistakes he makes is the assumption that the “Albanian Church” of Artsakh was some sort of independent ethnic and political entity until it was abolished in the 19th century, when all scholars agree in union that it was Armenian in all but name (the Albanian Church had been directly subordinated to the Armenian church since the 5th century and its members, in direct contrast to what Krüger says, felt themselves as Armenians and after the 11th century, of holding the last bastion of Armenian independence in the region. (See Robert H. Hewsen, "The Kingdom of Arc'ax" in Medieval Armenian Culture (University of Pennsylvania Armenian Texts and Studies) in Thomas J. Samuelian and Michael E. Stone (eds.) Chico, California: Scholars Press, 1984, pp. 52-53. ISBN 0-8913-0642-0)

I have instead turned to George A. Bournoutian, a peer-reviewed scholar and respected historian who specializes in the early modern history of Karabakh, for tackling the most thorny aspects of this article. In an article published in the peer-reviewed journal, Journal of the Society for Armenian Studies, and published online here, he scrutinizes and debunks much of the misinformation (most notably the notorious use of Audrey Altstadt’s error-riddled book; he shows how Altstadt has distorted the statistical information from the 1897 Russian census) which has unfortunately been repeated on this article and elsewhere. I have also correspondingly nPOVed the article and removed some of the more egregious POV lines. --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My last edis summary had to be "POV edits", I wrongly used my Armenian keyboard. --vacio 15:05, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a very wide gulf in the figures given in the 1823 Russian census, of which a few copies were published in 1866 and were stored in the archives of the Russian government. George Bournoutian has only recently prepared an English translation of the the 1823 census, and it's doubtful that authors like G. Reza Sabri-Tabrizi (who is the actual author of the chapter and not Ehteshami), F. Coene and S. Cornell have personally read the census results. Furthermore, none of these individuals are really specialists in the given field (i.e., the history of the Iranian khanates and the Russian Empire at the turn of the 19th century) unlike Bournoutian, who is an accomplished, peer-reviewed scholar in his field. It is quite possible that they are working with material published by secondary authors (Sabri-Tabrizi cites Molla-Zade of the Azerbaijani Academy of Sciences whereas Cornell does not even bother to name his sources). Bournoutian himself has published a study on how the statistics of this survey have long been manipulated and distorted by scholars working in Azerbaijan and, taken from the publisher's page, we read:

Finally, in 2003, he [Bournoutian] was delighted to learn that a new edition, numbering only 500 copies, had appeared in Baku. However, instead of printing a facsimile of the original, the production team had decided to reformat the entire text. In doing so, they not only had made numerous spelling and typographic errors, but had also omitted important data, some of which appear to have been intentional. The editors had not bothered to explain the invaluable data on the administration, land tenure and taxation of Karabagh prior to its annexation to Russia. One would have hoped that in reformatting the entire text, the editor or some other scholar would have researched the many terms and presented a true picture of the socioeconomic conditions of Karabagh under the last Khan.

In Bournoutian's article, we further read:

Prior to Soviet rule, the Russians conducted a number of surveys in the different regions of Transcaucasia.(2) Although not as accurate as a present-day census might be, the surveys were the first of their kind in Western Asia. In 1822, the Russian administration decided to determine the Armenian population in Transcaucasia. The survey was primarily to determine how many "non-Orthodox" Christians there were in the region.(3) The survey managed to record the number of Armenians in Georgia, Ganje (Elisavetpol), and Baku.(4) Erevan and Nakhichevan were under Persian rule and were not included. The Khan of Karabakh, Mahdi-qoli, fearing that the Armenian-populated districts might be removed from his control, did not permit the survey in Karabakh. Later that year, he fled to Persia, and the Russian were able to commence their first survey of Karabakh. The survey began in early 1823 and was completed on 17 April of that same year.(5) Its more than 300 pages recorded both the Armenian and Muslim population, not by numbers, but by villages and tax assessments. It noted that the district of Khachen had twelve Armenian villages and no Tatar (Russian term for the Turkish population) villages; Jalapert had eight Armenian villages and no Tatar villages; Dizak had fourteen Armenian villages and one Tatar village; Gulistan had two Armenian and five Tatar villages; and Varanda had twenty-three Armenian villages and one Tatar village. Thus the five mountainous districts (generally known as Nagorno-Karabakh today) which, according to Persian and Turkish sources, constituted the five (khamse) Armenian melikdoms,(6) had an overwhelming Armenian population before 1828.(7)

The mahal of Tat'ew had twelve Armenian and one Tatar village; that of Kiopar, six Armenian villages; and Bargushat, two Armenian and three Tatar villages. Thus these mahals, which form part of present-day Zangezur and were a part of the larger region called Karabakh, were also overwhelmingly Armenian. Armenians were also represented, in small numbers, in all the other non-nomadic districts of Karabakh.

It is possible that the cryptic survey cited by Altstadt was an official Russian state publication regarding the population of Caucasus which was published in St. Petersburg in 1836.(8) That source puts the Armenians of all of Karabakh at approximately 19,000 and the Tatars at approximately 35,000. Thus the Armenians were 35.2% of the population, which is close to the so-called 1832 survey cited by Altstadt. The important fact is that the official 1836 survey clearly states that the Armenians were concentrated in the mountainous part of Karabakh (generally called Nagorno-Karabakh). Thus once again 35.2% of the population of Karabakh (the Armenians) inhabited 38 percent of the land, where they formed an overwhelming majority.

I think such a detailed study is far more reliable than some of the sources Neftchi introduced, who do not seem to understand the intricacies of the census and the population on whom they reported on. Given the tendency among historians working in Azerbaijan to omit or reduce the historical presence of Armenians in Karabakh, it almost seems plausible that the data they are looking at has been distorted to present an inaccurate image to unsuspecting authors. Once I get a copy of the English translation, we will be able to provide more precise figures, but for the moment I would suggest we give credence to the individual whose specialty is precisely the period in question.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:49, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I believe Neftchi added reliable and credible information. While nobody contests Bournoutian has conducted a research on the subject, other writers can't be simply dismissed on the basis of "it's doubtful that...". How do you know or what exactly are you basing your doubts on? You or any other Wikipedia editor were not there when these authors were researching the archives. Simply put, Neftchi was right to add the other side of the story. But this is not all. To shed more light on the conflicting data, let's look at the 1897 Russian tsarist census data and the 1823-1897 year span.

If the source Pride of small nations: the Caucasus and post-Soviet disorder by Suzanne Goldenberg is correct which I have no doubt it is, then we can state that nearly 57,000 Armenians from Ottoman and Persian empires were relocated to Karabakh and Yerevan while 35,000 Azeris were moved out. Considering this data, accompanied by the data from Ehteshami, Coene and Cornell on increase in numbers of Armenians versus Azeris, Armenians could still hold no majority, even in Highland Karabakh. The three uyezds of Elisabethpol Governorate, located on Highland Karabakh, combined had the absolute Azeri majority of population, according to 1897 census:

• Shusha: 73,953 Armenians - 62,868 Azeris
• Javanshir: 19,551 Armenians - 52,041 Azeris
• Jabrayil: 15,746 Armenians - 49,189 Azeris

TOTAL: 109,250 Armenians - 164,098 Azeris

So, considering that

1. Armenians were being relocated to Karabakh and Yerevan; and Azeris were being forced out, indicating the natural reduction in the number of Azeris versus Armenians,
2. the 1897 census showed an overwhelming majority of Azeris in Highland Karabakh versus Armenians

it is impossible to assume that Armenians could have held a majority in Highland Karabakh. Tuscumbia (talk) 21:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's kind of easy to answer that because they do not cite the census report in their footnotes. They give the works of secondary authors (like Sabri-Tabrizi) or do not provide any of their sources at all (like Cornell). It's much better to give credence to a historian whose specialty is actually Iranian and Russian history from the seventeenth to nineteenth centuries. And, in fact, Bournoutian singles out Suzanne Goldenberg for special criticism. Again, from his article:

Unfortunately, those who have the habit of copying sources without verification have used Alstadt's misleading footnotes and have further damaged my credibility as a scholar. The worst offender is Suzanne Goldenberg's Pride of Small Nations: The Caucasus and Post-Soviet Disorder (London: Zed Books, 1994), which states, "Even in 1832, after considerable migration had taken place, it is generally accepted [Bournoutian's emphasis] that Muslims were a majority in Karabakh. An official Russian survey of that year recorded that Muslims made up 64.8 percent of the region and Armenians 34.8 percent" (p. 158). The note cites my article as the sole source. The survey, which I have never seen or cited, is now attributed to me.

So what Goldenberg has done is that she has attributed a probably non-existent survey to a historian who never authored such a work in the first. Such carelessness is not the mark of a careful scholar and it might perhaps behoove you to reconsider your certainty on the reliability of her work. It is true that Armenians settled in the newly conquered territories but as Bournoutian once again shows, almost all of them were repatriates and barely any of them settled in the Karabakh region because they were told by the Russian authorities that there was not enough land:

Having disposed of one myth, I shall concentrate on the question of the immigration of Armenians from Iran and Turkey into Karabakh. Between 1828 and 1831, 45,207 Armenians immigrated to Erevan (23,568 from Iran and 21,639 from Turkey), and 3,883 to Nakhichevan (3,856 from Iran and 27 from Turkey).(9) The Armenians of Bayazid desired to settle in Karabakh but were told that there was not enough land for them there. They were encouraged rather to settle around Lake Sevan, where Muslim tribes had evacuated. They did, and the district became known as Novo-Bayazid or New Bayazid (later Gavar and Kamo).(10) The only work which deals primarily with the Armenian immigration from Persian Azerbaijan to Russia is by Sergei Glinka.(11) He does not supply any numbers, but makes it clear that the majority of the Armenians were headed towards the newly-established Armenian Province, created from the Khanates of Erevan and Nakhichevan. An archival document, however, does shine some light on the issue. The document states that only 279 Armenian families decided to immigrate to Karabakh, and that they settled in Kapan and Meghri on the banks of the Arax (in the southernmost part of Zangezur bordering Iran).(12) All documents relating to the Armenian immigration make it clear that Russia, for political, military, and economic reasons, strongly encouraged the Armenians to settle in the newly-established Armenian province, especially the region of Erevan, which between 1795 and 1827 had lost some 20,000 Armenians who had immigrated to Georgia.(13) Since few Georgian Armenians planned to return, Russia concentrated on repatriating the Armenians taken to Iran in the seventeenth century by Shah Abbas. The only major immigration into Karabakh was by the former Armenians of Karabakh who had escaped the oppression of its ruler Ebrahim Khan,(14) some as late as the 1790s, who had sought refuge in Ganje, Georgia, and Erevan. They began returning home after a decade or so, following the Russian protectorate over Karabakh in 1805 and continued to do so until the 1820s. According to archival documents most of them returned to their own villages, which, for the most part, had remained abandoned.(15)

--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 22:26, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Do you even realize how biased your argument sounds? There are a few authors used for sources to reflect both sides of the conflicting data, yet you, as usually go on giving credibility to the historian of Armenian heritage who is more likely to write in favor of Armenian majority, than those three (of Persian, Jewish, Swedish, etc heritage) who have no affiliation to Azerbaijan and thus wouldn't fake the demographic information in favor of Azerbaijani majority, as you suggest. Again, I don't doubt that Bournoutian conducted research in the archives, but the evidence I presented above questions the data, hence the conflict in numbers and arguments. Tuscumbia (talk) 13:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's actually lost on me. I assign greater credibility to the individual who is the most qualified in his field and who has carried out actual research in the archives and personally observed the document in question. An individual who publishes material in peer-reviewed journals and who adheres to modern, western scholarly standards. I have already introduced reasons on why the statements of these three other individuals are highly dubious, and that is probably because they are working with distorted primary source material and this may not be something they themselves might not be aware of. So could you please stop bringing up ethnicity into this argument? You have already been banned twice for invoking ethnicity as grounds for dismissal of a source and yet you still persist with this same old line. It just baffles me.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that you are playing these childish games of giving credibility to Armenian authors and dismissing Azerbaijani and neutral non-Azeri authors who do not corroborate Armenian claims, is well known to all who participate in Azerbaijani-Armenian topics. What was your intent this time? To get me "entraped" and report on AE? :)

No, I did not "exclude" or try to exlude, for that matter any Armenian authors. If so, please point an exact location in the comments where I did. What I told you in crystal clear pure language is that while the data is conflicting (see above on 1823 data from neutral authors and 1897 census of Russia), and while you bash and discredit neutral authors who have no relative affiliation to Azerbaijan, the author of Armenian heritage is more likely to write in favor of Armenian side of the story than those unrelated to Azerbaijan authors in favor of Azerbaijani side. I suggest you stop your childish cat and mouse games, cease your bashing of Azerbaijani and neutral authors, and commit to good faith contributions to Wikipedia. Cheers. Tuscumbia (talk) 17:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]