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/Archive 1 /Archive 2

Unsurprisingly, editors on this page have strong and diverse opinions about the subject matter, about how much weight is appropriate to give different arguments, about what sources are reliable and about the scope of the article. These differences of opinion have recently been expressed in the article through edit warring, which is discouraged by Wikipedia policy and is unproductive. By contrast, some editors have made a good faith effort to engage others in discussion (I'll point in particular to the discussion Happyme22 started about his proposed edits which had been reverted). This is a good model for dialogue, and I strongly encourage all interested editors to express their views in that section, or start other discussions about disputed edits in a similar format. If you disagree with an edit, please explain your reasons here on the talk page. We're all capable of being rational, and listening to each other's arguments. If we explain our reasoning, we should be able to reach a compromise that's acceptable to everybody. (If they can do it on articles like Abortion, we can do it here!)

Wikipedia operates by consensus. That means that when there's a dispute, we need to talk it out until we can find a solution. To do that, we need to be civil and stay calm. We shouldn't be dividing ourselves into camps, or categorizing each other as "good editors" vs. "POV pushers". We're all here because we want to improve Wikipedia — to make a "more perfect" encyclopedia. So let's commit to working together to improve this article, and to that end let's commit to a positive consensus-building process. I'd appreciate feedback from all the active editors here, so that if we stray from the goal we can remind ourselves later. Once we agree on this, we can start the work of improving the article — but if we don't agree to work together constructively, the article will just be a battleground and nothing will be accomplished. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 07:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that we have more in common then what we actually perceive. I know that we can all rise to a higher level and work together towards a common goal of creating "a more perfect encyclopedia." Enjoy this video: [[1]] All is one.

IP 75 75.31.210.156 (talk) 09:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's unfortunate that some have chosen to not engage in constructive discussion to improve the sections of the article in question. But we did establish a consensus amongst those who took part, and I think that, barring a further discussion of material in the article, we should be keeping this agreed upon text in place.Trilemma (talk) 12:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Josiah Rowe's comments are always well reasoned. I will to do my part going forward to avoid edit warring and work together constructively. VeritasAgent (talk) 16:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am in full agreement with Joisah, Trilemma, and Vertias: the constant edit warring needs to stop and discussion is vital to the editing process. Of course it starts with us, including myself. I will try my hardest to avoid edit wars, and I especially encourage those that have declined to participate in discussions to participate for the good of this article and the good of Wikipedia. --Happyme22 (talk) 00:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While many people call him "Rev. Wright," it is incorrect to do so. "Rev. Wright" should only appear when quoting someone who made the mistake in speaking or writing. Because he holds a doctoral degree, he can be addressed and refered to as Dr. Wright. "The" must always accompany "Rev." as must the person's Christian name or title, such as Father, Mister, or Doctor. "The Rev. Dr. Wright" is correct, if somewhat old-fashioned. See the article on reverend for more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.31.233 (talk) 12:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following was drawn up by User:Josiah Rowe after much input by many different editors:

Several liberal commentators have contrasted the media's treatment of Barack Obama and Jeremiah Wright with the treatment of political candidates who ally themselves with white religious leaders who have made controversial statements.^[1][2][3][4] These critics said that John McCain actively sought the recommendation of John Hagee, who has been criticized for anti-Catholic and anti-Muslim statements and has described Hurricane Katrina as "the judgment of God on the city of New Orleans" for the city's "level of sin" (specifically a planned gay pride march).^{[1][2][3][4][5][6]} E. J. Dionne of the Washington Post contended that white religious leaders who make controversial statements often maintain their political influence. He specifically mentioned the remarks of Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, who agreed that gays, feminists and liberals shared the blame for the 9/11 attacks, but faced no calls for denunciation by politicians with whom they had relationships.^[1][3][6] Frank Rich of the New York Times wrote that Rudy Giuliani's relationship with Monsignor Alan Placa had gained little media attention.^[4] (Placa is a longtime friend of Giuliani and performed his second wedding; Giuliani hired him to work in his consulting firm after Placa was barred from his priestly duties due to sexual abuse allegations.^[4][7]) Conservative commentator John Podhoretz said that the comparison of Wright with Hagee was "entirely specious", because Obama had a longstanding relationship with Wright and McCain has no personal relationship with Hagee.^[8] Dionne and Rich acknowledged this point, but also suggested that a double standard exists for white religious leaders and black religious leaders.^[3][4]

Survey on Parallel Incidents/Comparison with other candidates

Background: On April 30 User:Wnt created a "Parallel incidents” section on the talk page. He had requested that a brief section titled "Comparison with other candidates" be included in the article. Other editors felt it was off-topic and commented that it should not be included at all, or that a limited amount of material would be acceptable. A few editors thought that the (brief) section was relevant and should be included. On May 4 User:Happyme22 created another section titled "Comparison with other candidates" under a section titled ”My recent edits” where the topic was also discussed. Various revisions of a summary paragraph were proposed and an acceptable version gained consensus. A review of comments in both sections reflected the following categories and the opinion's of editor's who participated in the discussions.

1. Include no material

User:VeritasAgent

2. Include all of the material in its current form.

User:Ewenss, User:Cryptographic_hash, User:CyberAnth

3. Include a brief amount of material (brief list/description of candidate controversies.)

User:Wnt, User:Grsz11

4. Acceptable summary paragraph

User:Happyme22, User:Josiah_Rowe, User:Trilemma, User:Thrill_going_up_my_leg, User:IP75

See below: "Updated conclusion of survey"

IP 75 75.31.210.156 (talk) 00:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review IP 75. I would agree with the above; my personal opinion is that no material should be included, but for the sake of WP:NPOV, I am willing to put my own views aside (something that is necessary for all Wikipedians to do) and I am in favor of the compromise text.

The key to resolving disputes, or "no concensus" outcomes, is discussion. Therefore, I suggest to User:Ewenss, User:Cryptographic hash, and User:CyberAnth to please go through the text (which appears in its full form above) and explain to the rest of us why you don't like it and where you feel improvements can be made. After that, I will give my opinions and others theirs, and hopefully we can come up with something. Do not simply revert in the article space; if a version is discussed on the talk page, decided by a concensus that it is the favored text, implemented, and then not favored by those that did not participate in the discussion, they cannot simply revert saying that there is not a concensus. Although concensus can change, the text was worked out with input from many users who participated, and those that did not participate do not have the right to revert without discussion. I would like to encourage editors to read or re-read WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:NOTABILITY, especially when it comes to this. But discussion is key to reolving disputes. Happyme22 (talk) 00:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you Happy. I have reviewed the survey again and have added my support for the summary.

Updated conclusion of survey:

No material, Brief, Summary paragraph: Eight editors. Include all material: Three editors.

I now feel that my revert to the summary was correct. It is the most recent version of what is favored by a majority of editors. IP 75 75.31.210.156 (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've been miscounted. I did actually feel the preceding version was getting rather long-winded, but this version, though generally well written, is cut too short. I'd have to look through sentence by sentence, but already I notice that Rod Parsley has once again disappeared, who was listed in my original edit. I am glad to see that the references were retained, at least, which should make it easier to reincorporate important information without having to change too much of the current structure of the article. Also, the new "main article" for this section is a problem - as it stands it is a loose "controversy section" that is a bad idea. Either it needs to be reworked as a general review of all religious controversies in the 2008 race (which could be a very nice article, with some work), or it needs to be "merged" back here i.e. with the restoration of a bit more detail to this paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wnt (talk • contribs) 20:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to reiterate my view that this section should be removed in its entirety. First of all, this article is about Jeremiah Wright, not other members of the clergy. Second, NONE of these alleged "controversies" are reasonable "comparisons" to Wright/Obama. Obama stands alone as the ONLY political figure in the 2008 presedential race to have a close twenty year relationship with an AIDS conspiracy theorist who admires Louis Farrakhan. The claim that there is a double-standard with regard to how Black preachers and White preachers are treated by the media is also dubious, bordering on dishonest. Jerry Falwell was abused by liberals in the media for decades, and there was no anguished commentary -- none -- about Falwell's views being taken "out of context" while it was happening. I don't recall any hand-wringing about Hagee being taken out of context either. It is perfectly clear where the double standard in the media exists. VeritasAgent (talk) 14:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All this comment indicates is clear, unabashed POV pushing. Ewenss (talk) 04:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comparing religion and politics between 2008 candidates has been a major topic of notability. For example, the Pew Forum has been holding conferences and aggregating published research and news articles on the matter (scroll down to see). Also see this link]. I've restored the material because the rational for removing it is simply false and misguided. And, it actually provides balance to the article! CyberAnth (talk) 08:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, some editors are persisting in editing out the discussed, compromise text in favor of their version. I can't edit it, as I'd be crossing into 3RR territory, but I think an administrator needs to do something to prevent this fairly high profile article from continuing to be vandalized in this manner. Trilemma (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed upon quickly by 2 or 3 VERY EVIDENT POV PUSHERS. Ewenss (talk) 15:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently has six paragraphs outlining the eight views from those in the academic field (counting Michael Eric Dyson twice) and they all seem to be saying the same thing: 'put Wright's comments in context' or 'many black preachers have similar preaching styles'. It seems like every time an acadamian speaks on this matter, it is added to this article. The comments are repetitive, much too long, and they do not speak for all people in the academic field.

Therefore, I am in favor of removing some of the comments, and trimming down the paragraphs to remove superfluous quotations and extra detail. The views of people working in the academic field are important, but others desere just as much say on this topic; I would also like to hear from some in the academic field with conflicting opinions on Wright. The article cannot continue to be bogged down by one acadamian agreeing with another. Happyme22 (talk) 00:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. This section should be around two paragraphs, with more summary and less elaboration. Trilemma (talk) 01:17, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in compiling a better section, we need to clear out the NPOV language. In place of the paraphrasing, shorter direct quotes would be better. Trilemma (talk) 13:10, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I concur the quotes from the academics are much too long. They need to be trimmed down substantially. Some quotes from academics with a different point of view also need to be added. Dr. Thomas Sowell, for example, is a vastly more accomplished and significant Black academic than any of the authors quoted in the article, and he has characterized Wright's comments as obscene. VeritasAgent (talk) 13:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is astounding ignorance and a clear indication of the blatant POV pushing you've been undertaking here. Sowell is a freakin' economist and political commentator, not a theologian or historian of religion, like, for example, Marty Martin is, quoted in the section. Ewenss (talk) 03:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I put up an edit cutting down on the original article and adding several new opinions. If there are any issues with it then we can work it out here. Trilemma (talk) 01:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section was excellent as is. Ewenss (talk) 03:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ewenss, I posted the following comments on your talk page. I do not feel these edits were a very good example of 'working together'.

The "Academia" section on the Jeremiah Wright controversy article was reduced in size and revised today. I know you have spent a lot of time writing most of the section and feel you should have been consulted prior to these edits. Other editors, including myself, feel the section was too long. I personally think that all the "Reaction" sections were getting too long and that very important facts relating to the actual story of the controversy have received little or no mention. The impact on the church - bomb and death threats, the media hounding members at their homes and TUCC retaining a PR firm are some examples. Wright's comments at the National Press Club Q&A that caused Obama's strong response distancing himself from Wright is another example of the omission of some of the more important aspects of the story. . I thought you should be informed of this so you can contribute to the discussion on the talk page. IP 75 75.31.210.156 (talk) 04:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ewenss, it is not ignorance toward academians. It's that the eight quotes in the section all shared similar views, and only one side's argument was presented. I will say that I think Trilemma's version was leaning a bit too much toward the anti-Wright crowd, so I have added in two more Martin Marty quotes, which balance the section out nicely. Happyme22 (talk) 07:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's understandable. This seems an adequate compromise text. Unfortunately, several editors have shown a complete unwillingness to compromise. Trilemma (talk) 13:32, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now we are quoting material from overtly partisan political publications and framing that as academic responses instead of political commentary, and quoting blogs. Pathetic. The material as is is balance. Ewenss (talk) 07:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say that Happy and Trillema appear to be trying to take this article over for their political agenda. 74.233.86.207 (talk) 07:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are several users who are refusing to discuss, compromise, or take into account anyone else's ideas besides their own. If you persist in this, arbitration is inevitable. Trilemma (talk) 16:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was recommended to me by User:Ewenss at Talk:Jeremiah_Wright_controversy/Archive_2#Problematic_edits to only use polls from professional polling organizations, such as Gallup and Rasmussen. This was discussed at a time when my implementation of a Fox News poll was reverted, and with the recent addition of a New York Times/CBS poll, I noticed an inconsistency. So for consistency reasons, either we only use data from polling organizations, or we use data from both polling organizations and other media/news sources (ex: NYT/CBS, CNN, Fox, etc.). Happyme22 (talk) 03:43, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the pattern here over some weeks, it does not take much to see clearly that Happyme22, Trilemma, and VeritasAgent have decided to try to take over this article, push their shared POV, and remove as much material as possible that might diminish that shared POV. CyberAnth (talk) 08:12, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really find it amusing how you are on a mission to establish me as some sort of right-wing nut job, while completely neglecting to mention how you have repeatedly failed to discuss proposed versions (not to mention ignore concensus) and would rather edit war. I see that you have made a nice little comment here about my "cherry picking on a variety of articles", but you have also failed to point to specific examples (that nice little comment was reverted as being unproductive by one of the main editors of the Obama page). I have to say that I was a much happy editor before I came to this page; with my previous works, editors who disagreed with me were willing to discuss the issue and reach a compromise, rather than personally attack me and edit war. CyberAnth, you have the wrong idea when it comes to editing Wikipedia; your idea of editing is to label people who disagree with you as "POV cherry pickers" and "anti-Obama" who have "tried to take over this article, push their shared POV, and remove as much material as possible that might diminish that shared POV". I hadn't even met you before I came here, but just so you know, I've been at Wikipedia since February 2007, my edit count is over 10,000, here are two articles (1. 2.) that I wrote that have achieved FA status, and I've been featured in the Wikipedia signpost because of them; I think I know what I'm doing when it comes to editing, discussing, formng a consensus, and implementing. It is apparent that you do not. Happyme22 (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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