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The statistical estimates in Secret City are controversial, not accepted by the mainstream academic community, and have been critiqued to a great deal. Thus, reverting this edit, and saying in our voice that "However, despite that, as another scholar (Gunnar S. Paulsson) in his work on the Jews of Warsaw has demonstrated, Polish citizens of Warsaw managed to support and hide the same percentage of Jews as did the citizens of cities in Western European countries. - is not NPOV. If Paulsson is to be included, he must be clearly attributed, WP:WEASEL wording such as "demonstrated" should be redacted, and criticism of his estimate (by several notable Holocaust historians - historians who are actually tenured in major research institutions) should be noted.Icewhiz (talk) 16:40, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"not accepted by the mainstream academic community". Nonsense. There's one dude that has a beef with Paulsson (and vice versa). That's it. This is more AGENDA driven cherry picking.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And "demonstrated" is not a WP:WEASEL word. You just made that up and then linked to WP:WEASEL in order to pretend that your claim was true. It's not. It's false.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:57, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I referenced two - Cooper in Slavic Review and Havi Dreifuss (in a number of publications). And there are actually quite a few more. Two published academics trump an editor's opinion.Icewhiz (talk) 18:03, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propination was the main cause for massive alcoholism in Poland; also, because taverns in rural region were leased nearly exclusively by Jews who took part in enforcing these privileges (being banned from most other occupations), it was also a major reason for anti-semitism among peasants.^[1]

Xx236 (talk) 07:01, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The text doesn't explain that the majority of ethnic Poles were serfs and Jews were free.Xx236 (talk) 07:11, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

est. 1,300,000+ ??? The real Polish Jews who spoke Polish, read Polish books are generally dead. Even Yiddish culture has gone. I understand that some people want to have an EU psssport, but it doesn't make them in any way Polish, rather pragmatic. Do they have any big cultural organization in Israel? Do they have a network of bookstores? Xx236 (talk) 06:40, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tatzref is interested in adding a block quote about slave traders. Example: [1]. Starting discussion here. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:48, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to add this - we would need strong sourcing placing Jews in Poland - as opposed to wider Eastern Europe or engaging in the trade in other countries the south / south-west. We should also avoid long quotations.Icewhiz (talk) 06:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish traders in medieval Poland

The evidence of Jewish traders being involved in the slave trade of Christian Poles is indisputable. According to the YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe: “The first information about Jewish merchants in Eastern Europe dates from about the tenth century. In this period, Jews took part in the slave trade between Central Asia, Khazaria, Byzantium, and Western Europe (in particular the Iberian Peninsula). Important stopping points on the trade routes included Prague, Kraków, and Kiev, towns in which Jewish colonies developed.” (http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Trade). See also -- among many other sources -- Iwo Cyprian Pogonowski, Jews in Poland: A Documentary History. New York: Hippocrene, 1993, pp. 257-266; H.H. Ben-Sasson (ed.), A History of the Jewish People. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press, 1976, pp. 394-398, Plate 31; Joseph Adler, “The Origins of Polish Jewry,” Midstream, October 1994, pp. 26-28; M.M. Postan and Edward Miller (eds.), The Cambridge Economic History of Europe, vol. 2: Trade and Industry in the Middle Ages, Second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1987, pp. 416-418.

The Museum of the History of Polish Jews POLIN in Warsaw also mentions it (https://culture.pl/en/article/a-virtual-visit-to-the-museum-of-the-history-of-polish-jews): The gallery is composed of various exhibition pieces. The first one is a map of the journeys of Ibrahim Ibn Jakob, a Jewish merchant from Cordoba who arrived in Poland (or as he writes, "the land of Mieszko") 960 years ago. Professor Hanna Zaremska, curator of the gallery explains, "The first people of Israel who appeared in this region were nomadic merchants and arrived from Western Europe. They traded in slaves and furs, expensive fabrics, roots and weapons. The slave trade was very profitable. Buyers went with the slaves to Asia – in the great Islamic empire, Slavic slaves were in high demand." Next along the First Meetings gallery is an enlarged piece of the doors of Gniezno Cathedral. On it are Jewish slave merchants harassed by representatives of the Catholic church. The exhibition piece announces an important motif explored by the museum: the relations of Jews and the Church.

According to historian Zofia Kowalska: “In the early Middle Ages the Jews kept a high profile in various branches of long-distance and overseas trade, in which slaves were, for at least three hundred years, the chief commodity. … The accounts of travellers (Ibn Kordabheh, Ibrahim ibn Yacub), passages in the works of other Arab and Jewish authors (Ibn Haukal, Ibrahim al Quarawi, Yehuda ben Meir ha-Kohen), documents issued by ecclesiastical and secular authorities, charters of municipal privileges and customs tariffs build up a massive body of evidence corroborating the involvement of the Jews in the slave trade. Their “goods” came mostly from the Slav nations; their trade routes led to and crossed in Eastern and Central Europe. Slaves of Slav origin would be taken westwards across the Frankish lands to Arab Spain and from there to other countries in the Mediterranean. The main centres of the slave trade were Prague (from the 10th century onwards); Magdeburg, Merseburg, Mainz and Koblenz in Germany; Verdun in northern France and a number of towns in southern France. In spite of the vociferous debates that the slave trade provoked in both secular and church circles, the Jews were undismayed and went on with their business.” Zofia Kowalska, “Handel niewolnikami prowadzony przez Żydów w IX-XI wieku w Europie,” in Danuta Quirini-Popławskiej (ed.), Niewolnictwo i niewolnicy w Europie od starożytności po czasy nowożytne. Kraków: Wydawnictwo Uniwersytetu Jagiellońskiego, 1998, pp. 81-92.Tatzref (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE -- and this is highly telling -- what arguments have been raised to block the use of these highly reliable, published sources: (cur | prev) 02:46, 30 June 2018‎ Malik Shabazz (talk | contribs)‎ . . (218,319 bytes) (-2,673)‎ . . (Reverted 2 edits by Tatzref (talk): Rv original research -- try it one more time and I'll report you at WP:AE. (TW)) (undo | thank) (Tag: Undo) According to Wikipedia: The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.Tatzref (talk) 13:36, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm concerned you're leaving out important context. The rest of the paragraph from the YIVO source (linked above) says

During the twelfth century, Jews were excluded from this trade, due in part to church opposition to their dealing in Christian slaves. From the thirteenth century, additional Jews settled in Polish cities as part of German colonization. Though their major occupation at that time was moneylending, which provided the economic basis for, among other things, urban mercantile activity, they were also active in long-range trade. As Polish markets developed in such towns as Poznań, Gniezno, Lublin, Lwów, Brześć, and Warsaw, Jewish merchants dealt in the import–export trade. Among other goods, Jews exported skins, furs, wax, and cloth to Central and Western Europe, while metal products and linens were imported to Poland. Magdeburg Law, which formed the basis for much of East European urban life in this period, largely excluded Jews from local and retail trade, domains viewed as the monopoly of the Christian burghers.

EvergreenFir (talk) 16:55, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EvergreenFir:, @Malik Shabazz: - please note that much of the text inserted has come from this Mark Paul document (I did not assess copyvio - though as this is an attributed quotation, may not come into play). Mark Paul is WP:QS to say the least and a WP:SPS - I think we've also caught instances of misrepresentations - though regardless use of sources in these documents is highly selective cherry picking. Please refer to Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust/Archive 3#Use of self-published (?) material by Mark Paul (and threads below), Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust#RFC: Inclusion of list of towns and villages sourced to self-published Mark Paul, and placing Mark Paul's documents in the Bibliography, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul. That being said - I do think think there is a place for a fair and balanced description of Jewish trading in the 10th century - I would prefer an English source for this (e.g. YIVO would be a start) - per WP:NOENG and easiness of WP:V. Relying of a translation of Polish in Mark Paul - does not fit WP:RS.Icewhiz (talk) 18:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tatzref, Jewish merchants in medieval Poland, like their counterparts in colonial America, traded in many things -- including slaves -- just like merchants of other faiths. When an editor repeatedly inserts material about Jews and the slave trade -- whether to this article or one about colonial America -- it makes me wonder what the editor's motivation is. It certainly isn't to build an encyclopedia. Choosing to force in a few facts while ignoring the hundreds of others mentioned in the same sources, often on the same pages, is not acceptable behavior. I will remind that sanctions apply to this article, as they do to all articles related to Eastern Europe. Think carefully about how you wish to proceed. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:36, 30 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These allegations are totally spurious. No good reason was provided for the removal of mention of Jewish slave traders operating in Poland in the 10th & 11th centuries, something that is very well documented and known to historians. The first reason MShabazz gave for his deletion of reliably sourced information (consisting mostly of two quotations) was that I was inventing all of this: "(cur | prev) 02:46, 30 June 2018‎ Malik Shabazz (talk | contribs)‎ . . (218,319 bytes) (-2,673)‎ . . (Reverted 2 edits by Tatzref (talk): Rv original research -- try it one more time and I'll report you at WP:AE." According to Wikipedia, "The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." To use his own words, this is not acceptable behavior.

Next, I'm told it's missing context for not referring to what happened in the 12th century, and that my motivation for referring to it at all is suspect (note the personal attack). Well what about the motivation of those involved in the serial deletion of mention of Jewish involvement in the slave trade? Just as I suspected, a search of the edit history shows that this information was also purged from this article in the past - obviously someone doesn't want it here. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland&diff=prev&oldid=14603900#Early_Jewish_Slave-Traders Early Period: 966-1385 Early Jewish Slave-Traders The first actual mention of Jews in the Polish chronicles occurs under date of the eleventh century. It appears that Jews were then living inGniezno, at that time the religious capital of the Polish kingdom. Some of them were wealthy, owning Christian slaves; they even engaged in the slave-trade, according to the custom of the times. The pious Queen Judith, wife of the Polish King Ladislaus Herman (d. 1085), spent large sums of money in purchasing the freedom of Christian slaves owned by Jews.

As for the Icewhiz's claim that I am relying on a translation from the Polish made by Mark Paul, that is demonstrably false. The text in question is an English language abstract from Zofia Kowalska's article. It can be found online if you look for it. Allegations of other alleged misrepresentations have been amply debunked. Please let's just stick to the facts and cut out all of the innuendos and threats.Tatzref (talk) 17:54, 1 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was unfamiliar with the slave trade aspect of Jewish merchants. It is a controversial claim and needs proper consideration with regards to sources and WP:UNDUE. This seems reliable, but it does NOT support the cited key claim that "The main commodity of Jewish traders who came to Poland were Slavic slaves." It does mention Polish cities, and does confirm that some Jews were involved in slave trade in Poland, but it does not suggest slaves were their 'main commodity'. Neither is the second, longer quote from Zofia Kowalska (can't verify her academic credentials, but the book she is published in seems reliable, and Zofia Kowalska has published several books on history: [2]); through the sentence "In the early Middle Ages the Jews kept a high profile in various branches of long-distance and overseas trade, in which slaves were, for at least three hundred years, the chief commodity.", on second reading, could be interpreted that way - but it is not Poland specific, as Icewhiz mentioned and as such, not fully relevant here. I think that this article can briefly mention that slaves were one of the various commodities early Jewishs traders were involved in, but anything beyond that is off topic and undue. User:Tatzref - if you are interested in this topic, please look at Jewish views on slavery (where Jews and slave trade redirects to), note from the lead "Several scholarly works have been published[4] to rebut the antisemitic canard of Jewish domination of the slave trade in Medieval Europe, Africa, and/or the America" (which does seem to a be a view point not reflected at all in the Slavery_in_medieval_Europe#Jewish_merchants section), and is also improperly cited - I am reviewing the sources for that sentence and they seem primarily concerned with the Africa/America, not the Medieval Europe. I will make some more comments on this general issue at Talk:Jewish views on slavery. For now, to repeat myself, I don't think this article should mention Jewish slave trade in detail, but a simple mention that slaves were one of the commodities traded would not be unjustified. PS. Sadly, Kowalska's article does not see to be online. I did find a forum quote at [3] ("We wczesnym Średniowieczu Żydzi - przez co najmniej 300 lat - odgrywali dominującą rolę w dalekosiężnym i zamorskim handlu niewolnikami.") which suggests she might have made the claim that Jews were dominating that trade, but I can't verify it right now. It does not appear to be in [4], at least not from the queries I made. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:23, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This edit is an appropriate summary of an English RS.Icewhiz (talk) 10:33, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above edit does not do justice to the YIVO Encyclopedia article in question, which highlights the importance of the slave trade and mentions the Church opposition to it. Similarly, as mentioned earlier, the Museum of the History of Polish Jews POLIN curator Professor Hanna Zaremska stated: "The first people of Israel who appeared in this region were nomadic merchants and arrived from Western Europe. They traded in slaves and furs, expensive fabrics, roots and weapons. The slave trade was very profitable. Buyers went with the slaves to Asia – in the great Islamic empire, Slavic slaves were in high demand." Consequently, I added more information to the edit to more accurately reflect what the scholarship states.Tatzref (talk) 13:36, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please correct "roots" in your POLIN quotation, above, to "spices". The Polish "korzenie", when used in that plural form in contexts such as the above, means "spices". "Roots", as quoted above, is obviously a mistranslation of "korzeń", which in the singular means "root". Nihil novi (talk) 22:57, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mentions of Krakow seems topically relevant, so I think we can work with that. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:31, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Polin: 1000 Year History of Polish Jews, an official publication of the POLIN Museum edited by Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett & Antony Polonsky (2014), at p. 57, also focuses on the slave trade. So both the YIVO Encyclopedia (historian Adam Teller) and The Museum of the History of Polish Jews are consistent as to the heightened importance of this trade in slaves in relation to other commodities. I therefore suggest that, for scholarly integrity, the order of commodities be changed to list slaves first.Tatzref (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Could you provide verifiable quotations for that? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:41, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Malik Shabazz has removed the following neutral, relevant, scholarly sourced information, along with a personal attack on me: "Kraków became an important outpost on the route for Jewish merchants (Radhanites) who brought slaves from Poland and other countries to Western Europe. The slave trade met with opposition from the Catholic Church." 02:44, 3 July 2018‎ Malik Shabazz (talk | contribs)‎ . . (218,789 bytes) (-215)‎ . . (→‎Early history: 966–1385: rv -- undue weight, it's mentioned very briefly in the source, but you're blowing it out of proportion (as you tend to)

NB This information comes from the YIVO Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe, where historian Adam Teller gives prominence to the slave trade relative to other commodities: “The first information about Jewish merchants in Eastern Europe dates from about the tenth century. In this period, Jews took part in the slave trade between Central Asia, Khazaria, Byzantium, and Western Europe (in particular the Iberian Peninsula). Important stopping points on the trade routes included Prague, Kraków, and Kiev, towns in which Jewish colonies developed.” (http://www.yivoencyclopedia.org/article.aspx/Trade). So nothing is being blown out of proportion. This is an entirely spurious deletion so I will restore it as others have endorsed it.Tatzref (talk) 13:30, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to think that all Wikipedia editors are as dense as you are. You don't need to copy and paste everything multiple times. If you wish to restore the material, build a consensus to include it per WP:ONUS. Can you find your way there, or should I copy and paste that bit of policy for you? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 23:56, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If there is reliable information about Jews substantially engaging, on Polish soil, in the slave trade, why not put it in a note, rather than expand on it within the main text? Nihil novi (talk) 20:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is one of WP:PROPORTION. YIVO's Encyclopedia of Jews in Eastern Europe has an article of more than 25 paragraphs on Trade that includes the following paragraph:

The first information about Jewish merchants in Eastern Europe dates from about the tenth century. In this period, Jews took part in the slave trade between Central Asia, Khazaria, Byzantium, and Western Europe (in particular the Iberian Peninsula). Important stopping points on the trade routes included Prague, Kraków, and Kiev, towns in which Jewish colonies developed. During the twelfth century, Jews were excluded from this trade, due in part to church opposition to their dealing in Christian slaves. From the thirteenth century, additional Jews settled in Polish cities as part of German colonization. Though their major occupation at that time was moneylending, which provided the economic basis for, among other things, urban mercantile activity, they were also active in long-range trade. As Polish markets developed in such towns as Poznań, Gniezno, Lublin, Lwów, Brześć, and Warsaw, Jewish merchants dealt in the import–export trade. Among other goods, Jews exported skins, furs, wax, and cloth to Central and Western Europe, while metal products and linens were imported to Poland. Magdeburg Law, which formed the basis for much of East European urban life in this period, largely excluded Jews from local and retail trade, domains viewed as the monopoly of the Christian burghers.

Note that the Jews took part in money-lending, the skin and fur trade, the wax trade, the cloth trade, the linen trade, the metal trade, and the slave trade. So why does one editor keep trying to add the following two sentences about Jewish participation in the slave trade?

Kraków became an important outpost on the route for Jewish merchants who brought slaves from Poland and other countries to Western Europe. In the 12th century Jews were excluded from the slave trade, due to the Catholic Church objecting to Jews dealing in Christian slaves.

I have no objection to discussing Jews and the slave trade in context. The article currently says "As elsewhere in Central and Eastern Europe, the principal activity of Jews in medieval Poland was commerce and trade, including export and import of goods such as cloth, linen, furs, hides, wax, metal objects, and slaves." Why does the slave trade need two more sentences? Why not the cloth trade or the fur trade? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 22:06, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Three editors worked on the revised text which appropriately takes into account the heightened importance both the YIVO Encyclopedia and POLIN The History of Polish Jews (see above), as well as other sources, place on this particular "commodity," because of its lucrative nature and the ensuing conflict with the Catholic Church. This is not giving undue weight but rather important context. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity.Tatzref (talk) 03:01, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You keep repeating yourself like a broken record. If there's consensus to include it, why are you the only editor who keeps adding it? Why don't some of the other editors who support its inclusion speak up? — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:32, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The text your keep deleting--based on reliable sources and providing important context--was also edited by Icewhiz:

14:26, 3 July 2018‎ Icewhiz (talk | contribs)‎ . . (219,953 bytes) (+74)‎ . . (→‎Early history: 966–1385: Be precise on church opposition ... You are the only one who keeps removing it.Tatzref (talk) 16:33, 6 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Information about trafficking of Jewish women is mainstream and already found in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwi_Migdal "Zwi Migdal (Yiddish: צבי מגדל‎, IPA: [ˈtsvɪ mɪɡˈdal]) was an organized crime group created by Jews from Warsaw, involved in the trafficking of Jewish women from the shtetls of Central Europe for sexual slavery and forced prostitution." https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A6%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%9E%D7%92%D7%93%D7%9C There is a large and growing scholarship on the 1905 pimp pogrom, to mention just two publications already referred to in this very article: Scott Ury, Barricades and Banners: The Revolution of 1905 and the Transformation of Warsaw Jewry (Stanford University Press, 2012), 126–129; Antony Polonsky, The Jews in Poland and Russia, vol. 2: 1881 to 1914 (Littman Library of Jewish Civilization, 2010). In addition this being mentioned here, this should be the subject matter of a separate article.Tatzref (talk) 00:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Polish September campaign

The number 61,000 has been repeated, one instance should be removed. The next section repeats some facts presented here. Xx236 (talk) 11:56, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I rectified this with this edit - there were a number of other issues (e.g. 7,000 civilian dead seems to be for Warsaw, the civilian/soldier distinction was not stressed).Icewhiz (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Cossack uprising and the Deluge

The 500,000 is unsourced and rather fantastic. Polish Wikipedia says 100,000 - 200,000 (probably from encyclopedia PWN).Xx236 (talk) 12:05, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to be written better - there are no precise estimates - it is all very wide ranges. There are some sources in Khmelnytsky Uprising and Deluge (history).Icewhiz (talk) 13:24, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Growing antisemitism

The title is biased. The section decribes among others the period of Sanacja rules, the best for the Jews. Xx236 (talk) 12:08, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yet throughout the period antisemitism grew, despite some favorable rulers. e.g. per William W. Hagen Hagen, William W. "Before the" final solution": Toward a comparative analysis of political anti-Semitism in interwar Germany and Poland." The Journal of Modern History 68.2 (1996): 351-381. "Even though in various ways the Polish regime in fact fell short of fascism, the cumulative effects on the Polish Jews of its hostile policies, as well as of Endek aggression and the consequences of demographic growth amid still widespread economic depression, were threatening them by 1939 with conditions comparable to those to which the German Jews had been reduced.".Icewhiz (talk) 12:30, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz, do you understand mathematics? Growing is defined and you can't misuse the word for ati-Polish propaganda. Haven't we discuss about the ignorant already? It's a shame to quote such trash.

Your text is about the period after Piłsudski's death. But the section describes several periods - generally till 1926, 1926-1935, after 1935. Please think before you write. If something is growing so there was a period when the level was law. When - under the tsar till 1914? It's mathematics.Xx236 (talk) 12:46, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have a book by Zimmermann, you apprently haven't read it, it's too big, isn't it? So you quote Hagen without understanding.Xx236 (talk) 12:50, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly some things were kept in check, but the 1937 Thirteen Theses on the Jewish Question did not come out of nowhere.[5][6].Icewhiz (talk) 13:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz, do you understand mathematics? You answer me 13, but I haven't written about numbers but about functions, derivative. Xx236 (talk) 07:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1926+13 = 1939? I don't think the "Changing antisemitism" section title is an improvement - the section does document growing antisemitism - kept in check by Piłsudski until his death - but still growing in Polish society.Icewhiz (talk) 07:47, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest a neutral wording of the term, it's a bit biased to discuss growth of something controversial. Once could argue that since there's less antisemitism now then there were back then, modern section could be entitled 'lessening antisemitism', too. NPOV suggests neutral terms for eras (like Second Polish Republic, or interwar period, or such). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The section clearly ends at 1939 - the end of the interwar period - and there is no doubt (per most mainline sources - e.g. William W. Hagen) that in 1937-9 antisemitism in Poland was at a peak compared to the entire interwar period - this should not be controversial.Icewhiz (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

LIcewhiz, please learn maths and return. BTW - does your bias grow?Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

13 meant Thirteen Theses. 13=Thirteen Xx236 (talk) 12:25, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tensions and antisemitism - but the glass contained water. Bias remains bias.Xx236 (talk) 12:31, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The subsection says Matters improved for a time under the rule of Józef Piłsudski (1926–1935). For a time - for 10 years of 20.Xx236 (talk) 13:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please explain:

• unsourced;
• wrong place, probably should be moved to the end of the subsection;
• there was no Pale by the late 1920. Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

where is Jewish business ?

The Interbellum section describes Jewish culture (and parts of the culture were successfull business, eg. the movie industry) and Tensions and antisemitism (Jewish shops attacke by Endecja). One need to be obsessionally biased to ignore Jewish business in pre-war Poland.Xx236 (talk) 12:34, 3 July 2018 (UTC) Yad Vashem says there were two Jewish banks in small Chełm [7].Xx236 (talk) 12:42, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still no answer. Have I invented Jewish business, Jewish banks, Jewish media outlets? Xx236 (talk) 06:16, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where is Betar?

In 1934, Poland was home to 40,000 of Betar's 70,000 members.[8] Routine Betar activities in Warsaw included military drilling, instruction in Hebrew, and encouragement to learn English. Militia groups organized by Betar Poland helped to defend against attacks by the anti-Semitic ONR.[9] The interwar Polish government helped Betar with military training.[10] Some members admired the Polish nationalist camp and imitated some of its aspects.[11] Xx236 (talk) 05:59, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A picture - Menachem Begin Poland, reviews an Beitar lineup. Next to Begin is Moshe (Munya) Cohen Xx236 (talk) 06:51, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still no answer. How to include Menachem Begin Poland, reviews an Beitar lineup. into Antisemitism ?Xx236 (talk) 06:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

YIVO

The creation of YIVO is mentioned twice in the same subsection. Xx236 (talk) 06:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have corrected, please verify.Xx236 (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

in large and smaller cities

A city is a large human settlemen. Shtettles were generally towns. A caption says even the small town of Łachwa. The interbellum Poland had a very complicated legal system based on three (Russian, German, Austrian) laws, which included miasteczko (generally under 4,000 inhabitants). Please remember the song Belz mayn shteitele, which is originally about Moldova, but the later version about Belz, Poland at that time, now Ukraine. Is it My city Belz now?Xx236 (talk) 06:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Chess

Many prominent Polish players were Jewish, some of them murdered by the Nazis in Palmiry. See Dawid Przepiórka,Stanisław Kohn, Achilles Frydman, Moishe Lowtzky, Moryc Abkin, Jakub Rabinowicz.Xx236 (talk) 06:39, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some statements are overreferenced, some subsection are poorly referenced, eg. Białystok Ghetto and uprising quotes one (Communist time) source.

Religious life in pre-war Poland - unsourced.Xx236 (talk) 06:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The March of the Living - unsourced.Xx236 (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Rubinstein#Polish identityXx236 (talk) 06:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He is listed as Artur in the text.Xx236 (talk) 07:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Brzechwa had Jewish roots, but he didn't consider to be Jewish. He was aqttacked by endecja. Xx236 (talk) 07:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Krzysztof Kamil Baczyński had Jewish roots and some of his poems are about the Holocaust. [8]Xx236 (talk) 07:30, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

http://kompromitacje.blogspot.com/2012/06/alina-cala-na-tropie-antysemitow.html Xx236 (talk) 07:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do tego wszystkiego dochodzi rozpaczliwa niekompetencja i nieuctwo dr Całej, zdecydowanie zbyt często zabierającej głos w sprawach, na których się nie zna i powołującej się na książki, których nie czytała.

Xx236 (talk) 08:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The alleged link 245 is wrong. I have replaced it with academia.edu. I'm not sure if the alleged Journal is academic, according to Icewhiz high standards, so maybe the reference should be removed? Xx236 (talk) 07:24, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found a copy of the original journal article and revised the footnote. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 17:50, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article contains many errors. Are you sure that ignorant articles are useful? What is "the Moczarite faction transposed the Jewish victims of the Holocaust with their persecutors"? Where - in one text, in several texts (which ones?), in one speach, in several speaches (which ones?), in school curricula (absurd)? People were terrorized in Communist Poland so they pretended they accepted party line, but they weren't interested. The knowledge about the Holocaust was low, but it was low in the U.S.A. in 68' either. It's obvious that people believed in death of their family members and ignored other crimes. Some Poles believed that the WWII was a war against Ukrainian nationalists and some other that it was a war against the S.U. Quite many Jews believe that the WWII was a war against the Jews, and that other victims of Nazis are unimportant. The number of Slavic victims was more than 20 million. Xx236 (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have found the answer myself - the paper says Moczarites published books and articles ..., so few books, many articles. But, as I have written, the majority of Poles wasn't interested - Party Congress, harvest, anti-Zionism, one learned and quickly forgot.Xx236 (talk) 07:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"1968 Polish political crisis" describes Jewish applications to emigrate. I understand the pressure, but was anyone imprisoned, beaten, killed to emigrate against his will? Marek Edelman lost his job, his wife and son emigrated, but he didn't. Xx236 (talk) 08:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. The article currently uses the wording "{n 1967–1971 under economic, political and secret police pressure, over 14,000 Polish Jews were forced to leave Poland and relinquish their Polish citizenship.[238] Officially, they were expelled to Israel. However, only about 4,000 actually went there; most settled throughout Europe and in the United States". Ref 238 is not verifiable online ([9]). The wording should probably be also discussed on Talk:1968 Polish political crisis, where I note the word expelled is not used. Now, setting aside popular press, which often likes to colorize and use more emotional terms, here are few sources - feel free to provide more:

Kevin McDermott; Matthew Stibbe (29 May 2018). Eastern Europe in 1968: Responses to the Prague Spring and Warsaw Pact Invasion. Springer. pp. 129–. ISBN 978-3-319-77069-7. Jews were forced into emigration

Louise Steinman (5 November 2013). The Crooked Mirror: A Memoir of Polish-Jewish Reconciliation. Beacon Press. pp. 134–. ISBN 978-0-8070-5056-9. Most Jews who remained after 1946 left in 1968, when theCommunist Partyloosed an anti-Semitic purge

• the term 'left' is also used in the blurb of Leszek W. Głuchowski; Antony Polonsky (2009). 1968, Forty Years After. Littman Library of Jewish Civilization. ISBN 978-1-904113-36-2.

Overall, I'd recommend using the phrase 'Jews left in the wave of an anti-semitic purge' or such. There are two key points: 1) there was an anti-semitic, government-supported, but non-violent purge (primarily related to mass layoffs and such, I believe) and therefore many Jews chose to emigrate, given the hostility they suddenly faced. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 14:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They emigrated to rich and free countries. Similarly many ethnic Poles emigrated during martial law in Poland, but the main reason of their migration was economy.Xx236 (talk) 13:12, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ah - free will, eh? expelled (BBC) or purged / forced to flee (Haaretz) are commonly used by WP:RS. Left implies choice - which was absent in 1968, and is not generally used by neutral sources. It would seem that even the present Polish president - Duda - uses "driven out"[10].Icewhiz (talk) 13:20, 8 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know Jewish culture?Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Every society has its underworld. To purge a society's history of its underworld is a disservice that tends to reinforce stereotypes about the society. Not all Polish Jews were merchants, financiers, mathematicians, musicians, and physicists. There were also Jewish workers... and Jewish underworld figures. We have already encountered some of the latter in "Collaboration in German-occupied Poland".

If credible sources exist, why not include some concise information about the medieval Jewish slave trade on Polish soil, and about the Jewish 1905 "pimp pogrom" (conducted by Jews against Jewish pimps)? Why deny Poland's Jews their due three-dimensional history?

Nihil novi (talk) 21:34, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I had never heard of the "Pimp Pogrom" before, but I replied to your general question last week. I believe we should include information about all facets of Jewish society in Poland, in appropriate proportion. We shouldn't focus on the Jewish underworld, nor should we ignore it. We should try to give as much attention to each aspect of a subject as a historian of the Jews in Poland would in writing about 1,000 years of Jewish history, not focus on any one aspect because we have an irrational obsession about it. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:27, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Zwi Migdal.Xx236 (talk) 12:03, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish-Polish criminal cooperation - Gazeta Wyborcza, certainly not antisemitic. [11]Xx236 (talk) 12:04, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Stefan Wiechecki has written a series of court stories about Jews shortly before the WWII. [12]Xx236 (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

YIVO [13] Xx236 (talk) 12:23, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jewish criminality was lower than average [14].Xx236 (talk) 12:26, 10 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The description is biased, it quotes some research, but doesn't inform about politics. No real party in Poland is antisemitic and antisemitic politicians obtain 1%-2% of votes. Many successful politicians have Jewish roots. Jarosław Kaczyński is sometimes accused of antisemitism but at the same time he is attacked by fringe groups as a Jew, because his grandmother was probably Jewish. There are no attacks on Jewish buidings, frequent in Western Europe. Xx236 (talk) 06:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Berman supervised the apparatus, he wasn't Minister of Public Security.Xx236 (talk) 12:38, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[15] Xx236 (talk) 12:41, 19 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The city wasn't named Wrocław at that time and it was a Bohemian, ethnically German one. Xx236 (talk) 09:20, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some Jews supported Western Ukrianians or Lithuanians. Greater Poland (Posen) Jews were Germanised and some of them emigrated to Germany.Xx236 (talk) 08:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking about adding more information under the subsection labeled "Postwar Period". I want to discuss the animosity aimed at Jewish Poles by their fellow Poles which are tangibly seen through violence, property seizure, and systematic discrimination within the government. I am aiming to add this at the end of the subsection as there are a few sentences touching upon the subject I would like to expand upon. The source I will be using is a chapter from Jan Gross' work, Fear: Anti-Semitism in Poland after Auschwitz: An Essay in Historical Interpretation. The chapter is titled "The Unwelcoming of Jewish Survivors." Jan Gross is a strong, credible source as he is a history professor at Princeton and has been cited in this Wiki article already. ^[1]

The violence I intend to write about include both assault and murder, in which members of the community knew who the murderers were, but turned a blind eye. In response, Jews in Poland requested aid from the Ministry of Public Administration as well as the Ministry of Public Security through the murders of Jewish Poles.

An effect, and sometimes motive, of the killing of Jews in Poland was the property they owned. Anti-Semitic Poles benefited since they rid their local communities of Jews. In addition, lower-class/poor Poles benefited from the murdering and fleeing of Jews as it opened up more employment opportunities as well as property available. The government would take "abandoned" property ranging from synagogues to homes and distributing it among the remaining Polish population.

Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. An example of this is seen through the rejection of Jews as of Polish nationality due to many records and evidence being burnt or destroyed during the Holocaust. Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system.

If anybody would like to comment on my proposed changes, please let me know on this Talk page or my Talk page! Thank you.

George1738 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is certainly a good point that the current article glosses over those points, some expansions along the lines you proposed is very much needed. Please note we do have a reasonably decent subarticle on that: Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946, which may give you further sources / ideas what to incorporate here. Finally, keep in mind that while Gross' Fear is a reliable source, it has been described by some scholars as non-neutral (check the article on the book itself for reviews). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Postwar? The war finished in UK and France, but not in Poland.

First you have to define when the war finished in Poland. Certainly not in 1945. See Anti-communist resistance in Poland (1944–1946) but in the text and up until 1953.

Second - Professor Marcin Zaremba describes situation in Poland in his book [16]. The book describes terrible conditions in Poland and sources of anti-Semitism in the Communist army and police.

Third - Gross' book has been criticized, so you are oblidged to read the critics rather than impose his opinions.

Lastly, I would like to address is the government's actions that discriminated Jews. - are you aware the structure of the government in Poland? Are you aware that several Polish leaders were Jewish - Berman, Minc, Zambrowski? They allowed the Jews to emigrate at the time when ethnic Poles were killed at the borders.

Bias in the government was present in the social infrastructure through employment discrimination and the education system. - the Communists discriminated pre-war educated people. They constructed a Communist education system, which persecuted Polish nationalists. Do you meam Jewish religious schools? The Communists fought any religion, mianly the RC Church as the strongest one.

The real conflict existed in formerly German lands, where the Jews wanted to create an autonomy, eg. in Lower Silesia, and the Communists didn't allow it.

Everything was nationalised, not only Jewish businesses. Landowners were not only disposessed but also expelled from their homelands.

Xx236 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Expansion would be DUE. Gross is generally a top-notch source - considered to be on of the best in his generation by most scholars - criticism of his work is mainly limited to Polish media and nationalists - while widely accepted by mainstream academia. Icewhiz (talk) 07:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Icewhiz, please learn the subject and return.

Gross isn't even a historian, he was a sociologist, now retired. His main work The Neighbours isn't academic, it's rather a morality essay. Gross wasn't interested in basic facts like the number of Jewish victims in Jedwabne. The book misinfoms - there were many pogroms in the region, some of them more obvious than Jedwabne, please read Anna Bikont. The 1941 pogroms consisted maybe 1% of all pogroms in the area Romania-Estonia. Now everyone knows Jedwabne, but ignores Kaunas, Romanian state crimes, Petlura days in Lviv and many, many others. Xx236 (talk) 08:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]