Template:Community article probation

	Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
	This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 18, 2004.
Article milestones Date Process Result August 5, 2004 Featured article candidate Promoted January 23, 2007 Featured article review Kept July 26, 2007 Featured article review Kept April 15, 2008 Featured article review Kept Current status: Featured article

This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Biography: Politics and Government FA‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance). U.S. Congress FA‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject U.S. Congress, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United States Congress on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.U.S. CongressWikipedia:WikiProject U.S. CongressTemplate:WikiProject U.S. CongressU.S. Congress articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is about one (or many) person(s). Illinois FA‑class Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Illinois, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Illinois on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IllinoisWikipedia:WikiProject IllinoisTemplate:WikiProject IllinoisWikiProject Illinois articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Hawaii FA‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Hawaii, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Hawaii on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HawaiiWikipedia:WikiProject HawaiiTemplate:WikiProject HawaiiHawaii articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Spoken Wikipedia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Wikipedia articles Chicago FA‑class Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Template:WikiProject Columbia University African diaspora FA‑class Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.African diasporaWikipedia:WikiProject African diasporaTemplate:WikiProject African diasporaAfrican diaspora articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Politics FA‑class High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles FA This article has been rated as FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. United States: Presidential elections Unassessed Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States articles ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject U.S. presidential elections. Template:BannerShell

I just created an article on David Freddoso's The Case Against Barack Obama, which is competing with Jerome Corsi's The Obama Nation. -- Noroton (talk) 00:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are three books in this short section: two texts written by Obama and one biography about Obama (by Mendell). What does this section signify? Texts written or endorsed by Obama? If so, the list is incomplete. If the criteria is something else, then maybe the References section needs a cross-check. —Kanodin 05:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason or need to delete this It fits with NPOV very well, source is refered to. --Cretino (talk) 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems extremely peripheral for main biography, and not worth including. LotLE×talk 23:26, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The edit seems to violate WP:DUE. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the above. This falls several orders of magnitude below the threshold for something that deserves space in a summary style biography. If we wanted to include every criticism everyone ever made of every politician out there, the typical politician's article would be several megabytes long. --Clubjuggle ^T/C 03:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have twice previously been forced to revert this edit by Cretino (July 30, August 14). From a campaign standpoint, it is noteworthy that Republicans have branded Obama as the "teleprompter candidate" as part of their election strategy, and it may warrant a mention in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. A less partisan source than The Weekly Standard (Rupert Murdoch's neoconservative opinion magazine) would need to be found, of course. Equally McCain's complete ineptitude with the device, resulting in repeated calls for joint town hall meetings, may warrant a mention in John McCain presidential campaign, 2008. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:52, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth (and about on the same level of discourse) Paris Hilton is seemingly the most articulate of the bunch, having reportedly done her lone position statement entirely from memory without the aid of a teleprompter.[4] On the other hand, some are insisting that the no-teleprompter story is just a campaign ploy and that she actually did use one.[5] Could this be teleprompter-gate? Wikidemo (talk) 13:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's possible that WP:WEIGHT would not be violated by including a mention of her use/nonuse of a teleprompter in the Paris Hilton article. ;-) As for Obama, he obviously wasn't relying on a teleprompter during his various interviews with the editorial boards of newspapers (many videos are available) and he did fine, so I see no point in including yet another ooh!ooh! Republican campaign talking point in this article. I further see no point in reducing Wikipedia articles into trash-talk, red-top recyclers of lies, rumors and innuendo. Flatterworld (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A new user tried to include this in the German WP and after he was blocked for being insistent (incl. edit-warring) he was blocked the very same day and it took him no time trying to edit it (again with a new account) here, (also the same day). Not saying s/he is the same but it was discussed before (sometimes in mid July I think) and discharged. Nothing changed till then. --Floridianed (talk) 04:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I donno, 1.3 million just seems surprisingly low. I suppose that doesn't take into consideration his wife's money or something? --M4390116

The source is this, and it seems to be joint number. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. The only thing missing is her retirement plan. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 03:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to ask but what's your point, M4390116? --Floridianed (talk) 04:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the drop in housing prices (and the stock market) since the article was written, it's probably high. Flatterworld (talk) 13:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok well that's interesting. His net worth is a fraction of that of other candidates. Impressive. Just to be sure though, do you have any other proof besides that CNN article that 1.3 is a joint number? Because that article never directly states that the 1.3 includes his wife's money, does it? M4390116 (talk) 23:59, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, he wasn't born rich, didn't marry rich, is and wasn't a CEO for a big company and also isn't that much time around as the "others". Makes sense to me and was the reason I wondered and ask about your point regarding your initial question. Kindest regards, --Floridianed (talk) 00:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, great. I just placed my comment and see you changed yours. I'm not going to answer your newly question but as far as I know, there where at least two sources out there for those numbers (which probably came from the same original source anyway). Just believe it or search a bit. I'm sure you'll find your answer ;) . Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 00:21, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sorry for editing my post kinda late. Anyway - are you sure he didn't marry rich? According to that article, his wife made in excess of 300,000 a year. Hm. I guess I can do some more research before declaring and opinion haha. M4390116 (talk) 01:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well.. If you had looked at the article for Michelle Obama, you probably would have gotten the idea that Michelle was not rich at the time her and Obama married. Probably should follow your own advice and do some research before declaring an opinion.--Bobblehead ^(rants) 01:40, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

EXACTLY! And besides that s/he still couldn't answer my simple question about what her/his point is. Just using up space and making this a forum again so let's stop here unless something helpful, related to the article will be posted here. --Floridianed (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point was to make sure I was getting accurate info from a source I usually trust.M4390116 (talk) 22:39, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why there is no article titled Criticism of Barack Obama? This article also lacks any information on criticism. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In almost all cases, the creation of a criticism article is considered a POV fork. Criticism of Obama, where appropriate, is woven into the body of this article (and its child articles). Please refer to the 33 pages of archived discussion for specifics. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:18, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good luck getting any criticism in here. CENSEI (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The reason there is no "Criticism ..." article is because Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It's hardly possible to read WP:CRIT often enough or carefully enough. LotLE×talk 19:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are so many criticism articles like Criticism of George W. Bush, Criticism of Hugo Chavez etc. Then what is the problem with Criticism of Barack Obama? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The individuals who currently WP:OWN this article, will not allow that to happen. CENSEI (talk) 19:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@ User:Otolemur crassicaudatus - A good Wikipedian will follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, not other articles, for the proper approach. This is a featured article because of a strict adherence to Wikipedia principles and the diligence of editors keeping the article accurate and neutral. Bush and Chavez are individuals that have attracted such a staggering amount of criticism that in the eyes of the editors of those articles, special criticism articles are necessary. Obama, in contrast, has attracted very little criticism - and that has been proportionately and sensibly integrated into the article when appropriate. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@ User:CENSEI - As I explained to you on your talk page, please keep your personal opinions about other editors out of article talk pages and remain civil. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiousity CENSEI and Otolemur, have either of you lobbied for a Criticism of John McCain article as well or is this just about wanting to criticize Obama? --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that criticism forks suck as much as anyone here, but considering that any material of a critical nature, or even material that is perceived as potentially critical is stripped the moment is touches this article doesn’t inspire much faith in me that all editors are looking to write a good article. CENSEI (talk) 20:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism for criticism's sake, for which it looks like you are arguing, is not appropriate per Wikipedia policy. As for the Criticism of X articles, just because one part of the wiki is wrong, it doesn't mean we should drag down other parts. Bush and Chavez, the two examples cited, have a plethora of criticism published in reliable sources, as both rank among the most unpopular leaders in their respective countries. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 21:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Chavez is very popular among the lower income group in his country who form the majority. May be he is not popular among wealthy people, but they form a tiny minority. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 04:59, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about criticism because its notable? How about criticism because its supported by multiple relibale sources? How about criticism because its directly related to the subject of the article? How about criticism because without it the article is NPOV because it excludes other notable opinions? Itneresting though, how you hedged your statement by saying, in effect that criticsm forks are bad in this case, but good in the other because there is so much of it. CENSEI (talk) 22:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to the above rhetorical questions: 1) no - notability is not enough, it also has to be NPOV, of due weight, relevant to the article, etc. 2) multiple reliable sources - no, same answer as #1. 3) NPOV - that's a judgment call. People have judged this article neutral, and heaping on criticism of the article subject for the sake of "balance" is not a neutral exercise. There is no requirement on Wikipedia or in life that every subject has to have a certain pre-set level of disparagement. Wikidemo (talk) 22:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And thats the problem, in a nutshell. This article is held so tightly by those who have created it, that any edit that has even the appearance of disparagin the subject is reverted. No matter how notable, not matter how relevant, no matter how many RS's agree, the bar can always be raised and enough "concensus" can be whipped up to prevent the inclusion of the material. CENSEI (talk) 23:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the machine, CENSEI. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you bring a cannon to a knife fight and your cannon jams, you don't have a chance. You could bring a knife but better yet, bring some wine and a baked turkey. That will get you further than anything else. Regards, --Floridianed (talk) 23:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I tried that approach, Ed. They devoured the turkey, they drank the wine and they made a Molotov cocktail out of the bottle. I was accused of violating every Wikipedia policy under the sun. If even 5% of the stuff that was said about me had been true, I would have been indefinitely blocked months ago. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:58, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you bringing this up here? Please confine discussion to the article. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:05, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice theory about there being a cabal, but it just isn't the case. Proceeding as if there is one and accusing people of being part of it only tends to make conversation difficult. I'm not aware of any event of great significance to his biography that has been excluded here, just people wanting to add rather peripheral stuff that mirrors the partisan attacks in the political process relating to the elections. None of this stuff has strong reliable sourcing and none of it is of particular relevance to Obama's biography. You have to remember that there are several hundred thousand news articles and a few hundred million google hits about Obama now. Every aspect of his life is covered somewhere in the mainstream press, and lots of stuff from outer space is getting covered in the blogosphere. This isn't some local restaurant chain in Cincinnati where you're lucky to find two newspaper articles and then declare the subject notable. We could write a long article about event he most trivial thing about Obama - there are thousands of reliable sources, for example, that talk about his basketball playing. Thousands more talk about the way he points and gestures. Amidst all that we have a few hundred that have picked up on this scandal or that, like him being a supposed Muslim, or a terrorist sympathizer, or somebody is going to indict him for fraud. Or people think he uses a teleprompter poorly. The stuff that's most relevant to his life has been included - his connection with Rezko and the church, for instance. The random stuff has not. Random positive stuff gets weeded out too - speeches he makes, visits to our foreign troops, his chili cooking. Every issue, every question of fact stands on its own merits. To accuse editors here of promoting an agenda will only make people defensive and shut down the conversation. Nobody is going to say "aw, gee, I guess you're right. I am part of the cabal. You got me. I'll quit now." So I don't see what one can possibly hope to gain by making that accusation. Wikidemo (talk) 01:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit inflammatory to come to a mature, reasonably well written (featured article still, officially) article and announce that it does not contain enough criticism of the subject matter or that people are supposedly conspiring to slant the content. A while back a few people pursued this claim with great vigor, and the result was a lot of edit warring and a number of bans and blocks for bad behavior, plus page protection, article probation, and so on. In the process someone did a survey and found fifteen or so (I don't remember the exact number) points in the article that are critical of Obama. You are welcome to hunt for them. The thing is, this is a biography of him, and it is not about the campaign or any particular scandals. When you tell the story of someone's life you generally don't add in detail everything his detractors say about him. Some things that are the fodder of politics - say, some wording in a speech somebody found to be less patriotic than it could be, misconceptions about his religion, etc - are utterly not relevant to a person's biography. If you have a specific suggestion or question about improving the article, please feel free to discuss it. But I don't think it's helpful to level a broad criticism about other editors. Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 22:22, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Correction, WD: you said somebody found 15 criticisms. He actually found eight, and seven of them weren't really criticisms. I've repeatedly attempted to compare this bio to other WP BLPs that have achieved GA & FA status. They're well-stocked with criticism. The lifeblood of Tony Blair, on the day it received FA status, was criticism. But always some excuse, some rationalization is found to eliminate or at least drastically reduce anything resembling criticism in this article. Now that Freddoso's book has reached #5 on the NYT bestseller list, and received universal acclaim from all sources I've seen except the Obama campaign, how do you feel about adding an excerpt to this article? I can guess. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so we have eight distinct negative points about Obama, and we weathered repeated attempts to push more derogatory content into the article, sometimes with no more justification than that the article ought to cast Obama in a more negative light. I'm pointing out that the premise is faulty - there is criticism of Obama in the article. Any attempt to spin things just for the sake of spinning is a non-starter, and not worth talking about.Wikidemo (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The point of Wikipedia is not to publish original research, but to report what mainstream scholars have written. If one subject is the subject of more criticism than another, it is neither fair nor inline with policy nor Wikipedia's place to provide original criticisms to "compensate". Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 00:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I want to echo what Wikidemo writes--political fodder belongs elsewhere. No one here seems to be trying to protect the Senator from legitimate, principle-based disagreements, and it doesn't help the process to accuse them of such. That said--I think it's inappropriate to provide a running list of criticisms in a biography. I do think it might be relevant to the article to address Senator Obama's response to detractors though; for instance, it seems like he's been working to earn a reputation for being a bit above the fray by responding judiciously to various accusations. I think presenting some of this only expands on the value of the article and it seems like fair biographical content. Perhaps a general program for expanding the article in this way might be to identify two or three reasonably respectable sources of criticism (i.e., not simply hit-pieces, but articles or commentary that takes exception to his political philosophy in some way) and counterpoint them with the Senator's responses. Any thoughts?DRJ (talk) 07:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Case Aganst Barack Obama by Freddoso, #5 on the NYT bestseller list. A few questions by Stephanopoulos at the start of a certain televised debate. Let's start with that. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're done with that. Now if you have any specific suggestions for improving the article, that's what this page is for, not complaining about other editors.Wikidemo (talk) 19:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done with what? I wasn't sure if you were responding to the proposed program of improvements, or to WorkerBee74's not-helpful suggestions. DRJ (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're done with considering whether or not to add to the article allegations that Obama is close to William Ayers - what Stephanopoulos' "few questions" seems to refer to. We decided not to add it. Otolemur crassicaudatus asks a well-meaning but somewhat off-the-subject question, why don't we have any criticism about Obama in his biography. The answer is threefold - first, we do; second, the article as it now exists reflects the participation over a long period of a lot of editors, who have collectively edited the article in incremental fashion; and third, when editing, we have engaged in the encyclopedic practice of considering each fact on its own merits for whether it is verifiable, on topic, neutrally presented, of appropriate weight, and so on - we don't decide on a particular level of positive or negative bias to show the article subject then adjust the prose to match. An editor asking a good-faith question like that is entitled to a straight answer, not to be told that there is some "machine" that is supposedly running Wikipedia.Wikidemo (talk) 21:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Obama-Bill Ayers issue keeps being called dead by editors here and yet it keeps coming up. Actually, it never goes away. The New York Times bestseller list has three books that mention it: the first two at No. 1 and No. 5. McCain criticized Obama on it yesterday or today. And this is not enough? We shouldn't need billboards in Times Square and banner headlines on the front page of the New York Times to get a mention on this page. Witness:

• David Freddoso, The Case Against Barack Obama, No. 5 NYT bestseller, Chapter 7: "The Radical Influences", pp 121-127: Would you be "friendly" with this man or anyone like him? Would any of your friends? [...] Obama is not a Marxist for his associations and alliances with Marxists, or a radical for his association with radicals. But his ideological influences are decidedly radical, which is an important consideration for voters. I provide the following material on Bill Ayers and on the other radical connections and influences in Obama's life not as a way of suggesting Obama endorses their actions or their far-out beliefs, but as a way of raising some worthwhile questions: (*) Why does Obama associate with such people? (*) What influence have they had on him? (*) What do these relationships tell us about his judgment and the type of people with whom he will entrust executive power if elected? [p. 122-123] [...] [I]t remains both relevant and interesting that Obama is 'friendly' with an unrepentant terrorist who was involved in a movement that killed innocent people, and that he even accepted donations from him to his campaign. How many unrepentant Communist terrorists do you have as friends? [p. 126]
• CBS News, Aug. 21 -- "Conservative Group Links Obama To Ayers In New Ad": A new group called The American Issues Project is spending $2.8 million to run a television ad in Michigan and Ohio linking Barack Obama to Weather Underground figure William Ayers.
• Associated Press, Aug. 20 -- "Barack Obama records sealed at Illinois"
• Chicago Tribune news blog, Aug 20 "Daley won't say whether UIC should release Obama-Ayers records"
• John McCain for President, Aug. 20 -- "William Ayers, Friend of Barack": if Barack Obama wants to have a discussion about truly questionable associations, let’s start with his relationship with the unrepentant terrorist William Ayers, at whose home Obama’s political career was reportedly launched. Mr. Ayers was a leader of the Weather Underground, a terrorist group responsible for countless bombings against targets including the U.S. Capitol, the Pentagon and numerous police stations, courthouses and banks. In recent years, Mr. Ayers has stated, ‘I don’t regret setting bombs … I feel we didn’t do enough.’ “The question now is, will Barack Obama immediately call on the University of Illinois to release all of the records they are currently withholding to shed further light on Senator Obama’s relationship with this unrepentant terrorist?” --McCain spokesman Brian Rogers
• Washington Post, "The Trail" news blog, Aug. 20 -- "McCain Blasts Obama Over William Ayers"

Time to cover it in this article. Noroton (talk) 23:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this should be in the section where it shows his website. The Obama for Illinois senator is old and outdated. http://www.barackobama.com/splash/first_to_know.html user:chasesboys

Hi all! Just wondering if we can't fit in some comment on Senator Obama's recent policy-related comments at the Saddleback debate/forum...He made a couple of comments that seemed important as regards his presidential campaign and policy approach, particularly with regards to poverty, abortion, taxation, faith-based organizations, and adoption legislation. Comments? DRJ (talk) 05:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saddleback probably isn't big enough to make the main article, but some of his comments could be used to flesh out the applicable positions on Political positions of Barack Obama and a brief mention of the forum and reaction could probably be included on Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 06:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know a valuation of the event is subjective, but it was the first time the two presumptive presidential nominees have gone head-to-head in some fashion for this election cycle. Additionally, the forum was unique for it's format, content, and location--I don't know of any similar forums in recent presidential election history. These are the reasons I thought it might merit a brief mention on this page as well as a longer comment on either the campaign or Forum page. I'm thinking something brief for this page, like "On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church. At this forum, Senator Obama re-stated his support for Roe v. Wade while expressing concern over a purported increase in the number of abortions during the presidency of George W. Bush; he stated that family incomes in excess of $150,000 may be subject to nominal tax increases under his policies, and identified Clarence Thomas as a Supreme Court Justice he would not have nominated, citing lack of experience on Thomas' part. Additionally, he identified personal selfishness as his own greatest moral failure, and a failure to care for the disenfranchised as America's greatest moral failure, referencing Matthew 25." I feel like these few sentences are brief, accurate, and relevant to a clear understanding of the Senator and his political philosophy. These also skirt the sort of controversies which are more relevant for the Forum page, in my opinion. If, however, Senator Obama has expressed since the forum a re-statement or clarification of anything mentioned, we'd want to amend it as such. Anyhow, I'm feeling like the above is valuable for this page and I'd like to see something similar on the John McCain page, but as always, these things remain open to discussion. DRJ (talk) 07:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These suggested additions are phrased in a neutral enough fashion, and well enough cited. However, they are absolutely huge relative to this summary style biography of Obama's entire life. A few statements made during a one hour debate/interview are not of such huge importance... this is more words, for example, than are spent on Obama's legal career, or on his marriage, or on his state senate tenure. WP:WEIGHT suggests this material is far too peripheral for inclusion here. LotLE×talk 17:41, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Got it. I think I can pare it down even further to make sure it has a good weight for the article. I'm going to insert it as: "On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church." This will allow for a link within this article to an expanded article on the forum. Thanks! DRJ (talk) 20:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Er...no. This is Obama's BLP. Campaign-related stuff goes in campaign. There's no way that this event was significant enough to warrant inclusion on this BLP. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:45, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't take this as an irritated response, but the demeaning tone with which you open your response is out of place on this page. That said, this was a significant event for the above stated reasons--particularly because it was the first time the two presumptive presidential nominees have gone head-to-head in some fashion for this election cycle. You'll find similar content on the other guy's BLP. I'll wait a couple more days to re-enter the content, but I'm not accepting your hasty rejection as sufficient. I'd like to hear other comments. So, we know what Scjessey feels, and we know how I feel (I feel this is important for the in-page campaign portion) but for those who would like to comment, the added material reads as follows: When Obama became the Democrats' presumptive nominee, John McCain proposed joint town hall meetings that would include audience interaction, but Obama instead requested more traditional debates for the fall. On August 16th, 2008, Senators Obama and McCain participated in a "Civil Forum on the Presidency" at Saddleback Church.

It was not meant to be demeaning. You must build consensus for edits on this BLP, particularly those that don't follow established convention or policy. This proposal was only made a few hours ago, and almost nobody has had an opportunity to weigh in on it, but you jumped right in and added it. There is nothing inherently wrong with the text you have proposed - it is simply in the wrong article. Campaign-related stuff goes in Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 (this was explained by another editor above). John McCain's proposal for town hall meetings was a campaign ploy to address his problem with giving speeches to large crowds, so that is a matter for the McCain campaign article. Furthermore, the bit about Saddleback Church was original research, which we certainly cannot accept. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(out) Without going in to who has what tone, Scjessey is absolutely right about the non-relevance of this event to an overall biography. Even a single sentence describing the event would be WP:UNDUE weight for the general biography. In the campaign article or the political positions one, I think it could fit fine though. LotLE×talk 21:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just added to the family section the information about George Hussein Onyango Obama, as published yesterday by Vanity Fair Italy. It was removed by User:Speer320. Why? I verified the information and it is correct. --Dejudicibus (talk) 12:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a summary style article that spins off details like this into child articles (otherwise this would be several megabytes in size). There is currently an article for this individual that is expected to be merged into Family of Barack Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:27, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so where exactly should I place that information? In any case I think it would be more correct to talk about that here rather than simply delete. If Spear320 had asked me to move the information in a more suitable position, I would have do it. Do you agree?--Dejudicibus (talk) 12:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The information has already been added in the appropriate place. No need for you to do anything further. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but again Scjessey, your attitude is demeaning here. Try to be constructive and offer advice so that Dejudicibus is able to be a better editor in the future. DRJ (talk) 21:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]