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"feel" may be the same as "seed" in some foreign accents, such as Swedlish, but in US and UK, it's a diphthong and distinct from the sound in "seed". In fact, the vowel sound in "feel", same as in "real" is not covered in this key. Also, "seed" is an elongated vowel, whereas "fleece", like "feet" is much shorter in duration. This key makes no mention of this important distinction, which is often lost on ESL students. Dave Yost (talk) 21:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's because it's not important at the level of phonemes, which is all we can expect an IPA key to cover. Of course different accents have different allophones. Rothorpe (talk) 22:42, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. The sounds of the vowel aren't identical, but it's the following consonant that determines it, not the word: feel rhymes with we'll and seed rhymes with we'd, and here the word is the same... A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 14:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Seed" rhymes with "weed", not "we'd". 68.208.127.65 (talk) 20:13, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I sincerely hope this is the correct place for an answer to the query: "what is the proper IPA for Stretham"? (To defend myself, Template:Respell directed me to here). There is a duologue going on at Talk:Stretham#Phonetic transcription of Stretham. Taking into account that discussion, and after listening hard to local people speaking, I have transcribed Stretham as follows

• Stretham /ˈstrɛtæm/ (which I believe is the Received Pronunciation)
• in-line reference:

• Locally, the /t/ is a glottal stop as in Stre'am (locally /ˈstrɛʔəm/ or even locally /ˈstrɛʔm/)

--Senra (talk) 11:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perfectly fine place to raise such questions! In my experience, the townname sufix -ham is almost always an unstressed /əm/, thus giving /ˈstrɛtəm/. There may be some exceptions, but if you are correct that the locals use /ˈstrɛʔəm/, that suggests this is not one of them. No one uses /ˈstreɪtəm/, do they? Obviously, if you can find a source that would be good. Cheers! — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The IPA character ʉ is listed as corresponding to both beautiful and curriculum, but I am not aware of any dialect in which (if I may attempt a phonetic presentation) "beautiful" is pronounced as bj-oo-ti-fool, nor "curriculum" as ker-ik-ah-lum; ergo these contradict one another and so one or the other must be wrong (i.e. the other "u" than that indicated must be intended in one of these two words), yet it is far from obvious which it is. It would be helpful if this could be corrected. 94.171.240.69 (talk) 23:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In this transcription system /ʉ/ means that you can pronounce the word indifferently with either /ʊ/ or /ə/; it turns out that you use /ʊ/ for beautiful and /ə/ for curriculum, but other speakers can do otherwise. A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 00:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All of the "reduced vowels" (except, arguably, /ə/) have that sort of variation. Should we put an explanatory note? I doubt the above anonymous user is the first to be confused by this convention. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 21:02, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is it OK now? A. di M. (talk) 21:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like it, but isn't the product of happy tensing a short [i]? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 21:49, 10 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It depends on the dialect; there are speakers for whom Andy's and Andes are homophones (see the archive of this talk page). Anyway, it might say "(either I or i: or something in between)", and the same for all the others... A. di M. (talk) 08:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where does this come from? It's not in Accents of English. Grover cleveland (talk) 19:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. Grover cleveland (talk) 01:56, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A discussion relevant to this project is underway on WP:VPR#Change /r/ in English IPA transcriptions to /ɹ/.—Emil J. 12:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion, but I, the starter of it, have accepted that my idea was bad. So the discussion is over now. Skrodl (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the last months many threads have been archived to Wikipedia talk:IPA for English/Archive 1, ..., Wikipedia talk:IPA for English/Archive 4, despite Help talk:Pronunciation/Archive 1 and Help talk:Pronunciation/Archive 2 and Wikipedia talk:IPA for English/Archive 3, ..., Wikipedia talk:IPA for English/Archive 8 already existing. As a result, /Archive 3 and /Archive 4 contain threads both from 2008 and from 2010. A. di M. (talk) 23:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Title says it all. I can't find any such thing here, and I wonder why it doesn't exist or isn't prominent on the page. Is there no software that can do that?

The first time I saw a word's pronunciation given on WP, after the word, in parentheses, and in some unfamiliar funny-lookin' characters that were obviously a kind of pronunciation code with which I was (and remain) unfamiliar, I turned on my speakers before clicking on it. I certainly didn't expect a link to a page about how to interpret the code.

I'm just a naive WP user. You Wikipedians must have discussed this possibility but I sure can't find any trace of it.

/jim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.101.206 (talk) 20:31, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We don't generally use sound files primarily because that's a lot of work, and many people don't consider it necessary. (Most dictionaries don't include sound files, and do just fine.) — kwami (talk) 07:01, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the point of using IPA in Wik is to help non-native-speakers, then I think there are deficiencies in either the IPA or the version used. Some-one coming from a language where aspiration is a phonemic rather than allophonic distinction is likely to be confused by some-thing like this: b buy, cab. (It's equivalent to saying F life live for some-one who speaks a language (like English) in which voicing is a phonemic distinguisher: s/he will be at a loss on how to pronounce the word -- even though to a person of a language with-out that distinction mightn't even notice a difference.)

So it seems to me that the IPA as used here is frustrating to many Americans because it's too foreign and complicated and frustrating to many speakers of other languages because it lumps "diverse" sounds together. Kdammers (talk) 06:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IPA for English is intended for speakers, either native or good enough to know what the sounds of English are. You're correct: if you do not know how to speak English, this key will not help you much. Of course, you'd first have to decide which dialect you wish to use, and that is not encoded here at all. I don't think changing this would work. How would we ever agree on which allophonic differences are salient enough to include, and would good or native speakers even remember that "lull" has two different consonants, or that the stop in spy is a different consonant than the stop in pie?

As for it being too difficult for Americans, I'm sorry, but we can't dumb down everything for Americans because of their insular educational system. (And I say that as an American raised on that system.) We don't give astronomical distances in miles, for example, nor the mass of the Moon in pounds. Now, some editors, in order to make WP more accessible to them, go around adding conversions to more American-friendly units like pounds and miles; likewise, some editors go around adding more American-friendly pronunciation guides as outlined at {{respelled}} or {{USdict}}. However, that's a lot of work, and most people don't bother. — kwami (talk) 06:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reasoned response. I don't think we have to get into the dialect issue (IPA and the Wik advocates of it do a fair job of adjusting for and explaining that), but I still think the allophone issue should be better addressed. someone can be well enough versed in a language to read it and understand Wik entries yet still not comprehend that what s/he views as two totally different "letters" (phonemes) are not perceived as different by the average native-speaker of English ESPECIALLY when the examples given support this, to the out-sider, confusion.

On the second point: In the IPA discussion page, a solution has been proposed: a mouse-over gives examples using common English words. Kdammers (talk) 00:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The logic expressed above seems to make no sense whatsoever... IPA is used so it can be read by non-English speakers, but then use a pronunciation guide that cannot be used by non-English speakers. Meanwhile, there seems to be wide agreement, including the note at the top of this page, that IPA is not useful for English speakers and is being included for non-English use. Wow. Maury Markowitz (talk) 23:01, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit like saying that we use the metric system for non-English speakers, but then write the articles in English, so that they're not useful for either. The IPA is just the phonetic equivalent of metric. Americans complain about it for the same reason that they complain about the metric system: their insular education leaves them unprepared to work internationally. — kwami (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who says the IPA is used so it can be read by non-English speakers? Neither Kwami nor the post at top say as much so I'm not sure where you're getting that, Maury. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 01:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think Maury is confusing America with the rest of the vastly greater English speaking world. Common enough in Kwamis land of 'insular education' . --Kudpung (talk) 01:34, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect as much, too. But perhaps we should let Maury speak for himself. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 01:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is much more interesting than I thought possible. All of you appear to be perfectly happy to throw around culturally predugicial comments attacking other users, without a shred of backing evidence. Didn't anyone think of going to my personal page before attacking me for being a cultural imperialist?

For the record, my comment above is based on the statement "someone can be well enough versed in a language to read it and understand Wik entries yet still not comprehend that what s/he views as two totally different "letters". This is the complaint that everyone coming here has, and it appears the common response is to call the person an imperialist. Wow.

Surely the group of people that created the world's largest and best encyclopedia in a few short years can do better? What I see here is institutionalized laziness. This is a technical issue, there are many obvious technical solutions. Maury Markowitz (talk) 11:20, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One user, Kdammers, has asserted that we use IPA to help non-native speakers of English. We don't, and this is what Kwami has said in response. When you say "The logic expressed above seems to make no sense whatsoever" it seems as though you're reading the exchange as being made by one person. You'll have to excuse me if I come off as culturally prejudicial in implying that you make sure you comprehend things as they are intended before responding.

It is possible to put allophones in a diaphonemic transcription scheme, but why would we do that? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 12:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, IPA is not for non-natives and it's not for Americans. According to one source (http://the_english_dept.tripod.com/esc.html), there are 375 million native speakers, the same number of second-language English speakers, and 3/4 million foreign-language English speakers. If there are, say, 250 million native speakers in America, then that sure leaves the non-American native speakers as a (compartaively) small body that we are apparently catering to according to this thinking.Kdammers (talk) 02:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, do you have a better suggestion? — kwami (talk) 05:39, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

it's not a good example; please remove it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.126.70.183 (talk) 07:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is a good example, if it warns you that the transcriptions may not reflect your dialect. Can you think of a word ending in L which has that vowel? — kwami (talk) 07:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For whom does foal [fol] rhyme with full /fʊl/? -- Evertype·✆

Nobody? --Kudpung (talk) 01:14, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Phoneticially the phoneme /ʍ/ is not at all the same thing as the sequence of phonemes /hw/. Phonetically the one is [ʍ] and the other might be [hw] or [hʷ]; Indeed that sequence is typologically rare and tends to [xw]. [ʍ] is more akin to [ɸ] than to [h] or [hw] or [hʷ]. It is s voiceless [w], like blowing out a candle, not a labialized [h] or a sequence. In IPA for English I suggest that only /ʍ/ should be given, and not /hw/ at all. The Concise Oxford typically writes only /w/ for words in wh-, and while the OED has used /hw/, it notes:

In OE. the pronunciation symbolized by hw was probably in the earliest periods a voiced bilabial consonant preceded by a breath. This was developed in two different directions: (1) it was reduced to a simple voiced consonant (w); (2) by the influence of the accompanying breath, the voiced (w) became unvoiced. The first of these pronunciations (w) probably became current first in southern ME. under the influence of French speakers, whence it spread northwards (but ME. orthography gives no reliable evidence on this point). It is now universal in English dialect speech except in the four northernmost counties and north Yorkshire, and is the prevailing pronunciation among educated speakers. The second pronunciation, denoted in this Dictionary by the conventional symbol (hw), and otherwise variously denoted by phoneticians, (wh), (w), (ẉ), (ʍ), is general in Scotland, Ireland, and America, and is used by a large proportion of educated speakers in England, either from social or educational tradition, or from a preference for what is considered a careful or correct pronunciation.

Note: the OED says that the OE sequence /hw/ was either reduced to /w/ or devoiced to /ʍ/. It is a mistake for IPA for English to write a velar/labial sequence /hw/ in contexts other than Old English. I propose that the policy (for Kwami says it is a policy) be changed and that /ʍ/ be used, as this accurately describes the pronunciation of wh- in the dialects which have it, and /hw/ does not. -- Evertype·✆ 09:23, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never said it was policy, I said it was a consensual convention.

I wouldn't use the OED for an argument in phonetics; in any case, you're confusing phonetics and phonology.

The /hw/ analysis is a common one. Treating it as a separate phoneme /ʍ/ is also common. I doubt either can be proven: it's a theoretical issue.

So that we don't repeat ourselves, the discussion to switch to <hw> was here. — kwami (talk) 09:55, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the analysis of [ʍ]=/hw/ being common (though I don't know how common), it is also easier for the target audience to read. I understand Evertype's argument that it's less phonetically precise, but this isn't a transcription convention known for its phonetic precision. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 16:48, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The previous discussion seems to have had a brief mention of the 3rd option, /w̥/, which went over without much comment. However, this has the advantage of both visual similarity to plain /w/, and phonetical accuracy. Unlike /ʍ/, it also adheres to the regular IPA method of representing voiceless sonorants. It won't do any better against the "but is it really a single phoneme?" arguments (anyway, isn't that a topic for English phonology, not this key?), but I don't see anything that puts this at a disadvantage against /ʍ/. --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 17:33, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

/w̥/ is too easily confused with /w/. There is absolutely nothing wrong with /hw/ as a phonemic analysis: it's used all over the place in reliable sources. Indeed, even the use of /h/ for words like hit is arguably phonetically inaccurate, since most English speakers do not have a glottal constriction in such words: phonetically they are more like [ɪ̥ɪt]. Grover cleveland (talk) 01:03, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say I've ever seen [w̥] used for English, certainly not in phonemic (or diaphonemic) representations. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 01:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's used in The Sounds of the World's Languages as a phonetic analysis. Grover cleveland (talk) 01:41, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Phoneticially the phoneme /ʍ/ is not at all the same thing as the sequence of phonemes /hw/. Minimal pair, please? (Or, at least, an example of each.) The [ç] in human is transcribed as /hj/ and no-one objects to that; how is this different? A. di M. (talk) 10:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes: I think Evertype must have intended to say "the phone [ʍ] is not at all the same thing as the sequence of phones [hw]", which is true, of course, but irrelevant. Grover cleveland (talk) 19:29, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so: he was careful in distinguishing slashes from brackets and went on to describe what the possible realizations of each were. Now, by /ʍ/ he means the one in white, which etc., but I can't tell what he means by the "typologically rare" sequence /hw/ which "might be [hw] or [hʷ]" and "tends to [xw]". If he can provide an example of the latter in English (preferably but not necessarily a minimal pair with /ʍ/), his argument is valid; but I don't think there's one. A. di M. (talk) 10:24, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Evertype is thinking of Spanish borrowings like Juan? For me they're identical (when spoken as Spanish loanwords in English) to the native /hw/ words like what, but perhaps there are some speakers for whom they are somehow different. Obviously the best thing would be for Evertype to come back and clarify... Grover cleveland (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thought this was interesting, and perhaps relevant if old criticisms come back. The BBC has a respelling key in which they transcribe diaphonemic /r/. — kwami (talk) 00:47, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Our respellings acknowledge word-final or pre-consonantal R, as in words like party and hair, which is pronounced in some accents of English (rhotic) and not in others (non-rhotic). Therefore Parker is transcribed as PAAR-kuhr, not PAA-kuh, and the rs will be pronounced or not according to the speaker's accent."[1]

Hi. IPA articles for all other languages have links to sound articles (where sensible). Why is English the only exception? People mostly come here to translate unknown symbols into sounds. 220.210.180.29 (talk) 01:45, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The quick answer is that this transcription system doesn't necessarily indicate sounds but classes of corresponding sounds. /æ/ isn't just an open front unrounded vowel, it's the vowel of cat. Because dialects differ in the phonetic features of their vowels, this could be [æ], but it could also be [a], [ɛ], [ɪə], etc.

That said, perhaps we could construct sound files of speakers of various dialects pronouncing our example words. RP and GA would be a must, but other dialects are certainly possible. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 15:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My question remains. Why is English the only exception?

Your reasoning does not apply to most consonants, which are shared. I would add the links myself, but the page is protected for some reason.

In any case, even where there is regional variation, I think we should either link to the various sounds in the notes or, as you say, expand the table to show the dialects, which is already happening for Czech/Slovak, Dutch/Afrikaans, Swedish/Norwegian etc. 220.100.125.198 (talk) 23:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Er... I've heard the second consonant in getting realized at least in half a dozen different ways. A. di M. (talk) 09:31, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may want to improve the article then, because I don't see any mention of this fact. What you are highlighting is a shortcoming of the current version, largely independent from the point I raised. 220.100.125.198 (talk) 11:34, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A. di M.'s point highlights the problem with linking with most of the sounds, including consonants. Because of allophony, phonetic particularities, or dialectal variation (which, by the way, aren't under the scope here; that would be at English phonology and IPA chart for English dialects, as well as the numerous articles discussing English's historical phonology) we'd only be able to link to /f s ʃ m n j/ and maybe /w/. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 12:36, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In IPA chart for English dialects I cannot see variations for b, dʒ, ɡ, f, v, s, z, ʃ, ʒ, x, m, n, ŋ, w, j and ʔ. Even where there is variation, I can't see what stops this article from mentioning the various sounds (with links) either inline in the table, or in footnotes. That's what articles for all other languages are helpfully doing.

Assuming that at least some of the variations in "getting"'s rendering do not affect the rendering of a /t/ at the start of a word, I still think that A. di M.'s point does highlight an issue with the current article. 220.100.125.198 (talk) 13:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at fortis and lenis, which shows some allophony for /t/and /d/ in American English. And that's just one dialect. The problem compounds until there's too much information. Heck, WP:IPA for Catalan encodes just two dialects and it's a mess.

If the point of this key (it's not an article, which may be an important point) were to describe English pronunciation, then we would indeed want to exhibit greater phonetic description. However, the point is to show how English pronunciation (which our readers are expected to know) is rendered in IPA. That, on top of its abstract character, means detailed phonetics and linking to sound files wouldn't be called for here. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:49, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the fundamental difference with Catalan is that the reader cannot be expected to know what it sounds like. We do not treat the native language of our site the same as foreign languages. (We can safely assume that nearly every reader here knows English; we must assume that every other language is alien to them.) — kwami (talk) 00:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like a broader debate about the purpose of this key, and the assumptions we are making, is needed.

If I write

The word ''adobe'' ({{pron-en|əˈdoʊbiː}}) blah blah

I get

"The word adobe (Template:Pron-en) blah blah"

which points to this page, where I expect readers to be able to actually work out how they are supposed to pronounce the thing. They should ideally get an answer without being further redirected to other geeky phonetics pages that they are not necessarily interested in. All the reader wants to know when they come here through that link is how to pronounce that IPA string. I really don't see how adding links to sounds would get in the way.

As you can see, in all this no assumption about English proficiency of the reader was necessary or relevant. 205.228.108.57 (talk) 03:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't tell if that's supposed to be a pro or a con. They come to this page, and they see how the word is pronounced. That's exactly what a pronunciation key is supposed to do, the way they work in every dictionary. They aren't redirected anywhere else for that info. Why would further debate be needed? — kwami (talk) 04:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the question in the title of this section has not been answered. On what grounds would you not introduce links to sounds where appropriate and unambiguous? How would they harm exactly? Make examples please. 205.228.108.58 (talk) 05:24, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be odd to have sound files for /b/ but not for /t/. People would complain that the key is incomplete. (That's assuming they don't object to us not covering their dialect.) If we do include /t/, and give it, say, the pronunciation it has in "top", and link to that from "bottle", a reader might rightfully complain that when they pronounce the /t/ in "bottle" like the soundfile we provide them from "top", they are criticized for their poor pronunciation. — kwami (talk) 05:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I never said we should link /t/ (although I do think we should link [t]). You simply don't how many people will complain until those links are introduced. As far as I can see, incomplete coverage for other languages has not been a problem so far. 205.228.108.58 (talk) 05:47, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And again we are forgetting the template {{IPAc-en}}, which codes:

The word ''adobe'' ({{IPAc-en|pron|ə|ˈ|d|oʊ|b|iː}}) blah blah

to get:

The word adobe ( /əˈdoʊbiː/) blah blah,

where mousovers give pop-ups indicating how to pronounce all the symbols.

−Woodstone (talk) 06:48, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That has the same problem. If I see "great ape ( /ɡreɪteɪp/)" and pronounce the "'t' as in 'tie'" as the tooltip suggests, people would be likely to understand grey tape. A better idea would be having a tooltip at least for each onset and each rime, and if practical for greater units (e.g. "Betelgeuse Template:Pron-en". A. di M. (talk) 10:28, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A much simpler solution would be syllable markers /ɡreɪt.eɪp/ vs /ɡreɪ.teɪp/.

As I said above, linking to phone articles wouldn't be appropriate, nor would bringing information from "geeky phonetics [sic] pages" but linking to sound files that we create for this article would be nothing but helpful as long as we have sound files for at least RP and GA. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 13:20, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]