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ə as in comma?

Hearing the sound "ə" it sounds more like in fur and bird, even in the 'followed by R...' column and syllabic consonants section:

ər LETTER, forward, history
əl bottle (either [əl] or [l̩])
ən button (either [ən] or [n̩])
əm rhythm (either [əm] or [m̩])

it sounds more like that. Are the examples COMMA and bazaar correct for ə? ɑː seems to already cover this sound in PALM? and some examples in the vowels tables are in uppercase like COMMA shouldn't they be in lowercase? --Hackasaur (talk) 19:30, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Your questions could be resolved by looking up words in any dictionary (be it Oxford, Longman, Cambridge, Macmillan, or Merriam-Webster) and seeing if it transcribes e.g. comma, bazaar, and palm with the same symbol. The varieties of English you're familiar with may have simpler sound systems with fewer vowels, but our transcription scheme described on the help page is based on the standard British and American varieties that are represented in those dictionaries. Also note that both our scheme and any dictionary's use a limited set of symbols representing abstract categories of sounds (known as phonemes) rather than precise sounds per se. /ə/ in comma is more open than in bazaar in many varieties, but they are transcribed with the same symbol because both sounds fall within the same category. As for the uppercase, see the note below the tables in the Key section. Nardog (talk) 10:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think Nardog has the right of it here. Technically that sound is called a schwa and is an unstressed vowel. It verymuch depends on the language or dialect of the listener and how they perceive the sound. Comes.amanuensis (talk) 22:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is the 'followed by R...' column really required?

what is special about the r consonant? any vowel can be followed by any consonant. Is it necessary to show this column? also in the syllabic consonants table can't we have any vowel or consonant that section seems incomplete.--Hackasaur (talk) 19:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

/r/ is special in that it cannot occur at the end of words in non-rhotic accents such as Received Pronunciation. Vowels followed by /r/ exhibit a variety of special behaviors: /ɒr/ and /ɔːr/ are not distributed the same way /ɒ/ and /ɔː/ are (story doesn't become starry even in accents that merge stock and stalk); /ɛə/, /ɪə/, and /ʊə/ are never followed by a consonant other than /r/; and so forth. This is all touched upon in the notes. Also, although you linked "r" to the article about the trills, /r/, when enclosed in slashes rather than square brackets, represents a variety of sounds (usually a sound described as a postalveolar approximant or retroflex approximant, in many accents of Australia, Canada, Ireland, the UK, and the US). In our system in particular, /r/ in some contexts might also represent nothing—to those who speak non-rhotic accents—because we try to accommodate as many accents as possible at once (see "Dialect variation" section).
As for syllabic consonants, I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by that. Only the combination of /ə/ followed by /l/, /n/ or /m/ has the potential to become a syllabic consonant. Nardog (talk) 10:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To add to the confusion, in dialects with the intrusive r the nothing after plain /ɑː ɔː ə/ (in broad Cockney and New Zealand English even /aʊ/, at least in some cases) represents an /r/ when immediately followed by a vowel. Sol505000 (talk) 19:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not sure what you mean about /aʊ/ in New Zealand. Are you suggesting that people there say ‘How about’ as ‘How r-about’ for example? Overlordnat1 (talk) 13:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The example I'm aware of is the word however, pronounced hǣreva [hæːˈɹevɐ] (rather than [hæəˈɹevɐ]. which is less likely) by some speakers instead of the standard NZ [hæʊˈevɐ]. In cockney, the example Wells gives in AoE is, I think, Now he's done it, pronounced Nǣr e's done it [næːˈɹɪizˈdɐnɪʔ], with a dropped h. This, again, is variable, in near-RP speakers from London you'll always get [næʊˈ(h)ɪizˈdɐnɪʔ(t)]. All in all, the MOUTH vowel must be a centering diphthong or a front monophthong for this to happen. This [æə ~ æː] overlaps with the allophonic range of SQUARE in London, so that the difference between cow and care can be rather slight in broad cockney. But they're normally distinct, I think. In New Zealand SQUARE is close to [iɐ] and it merges with NEAR instead, so that for Kiwis bear [biɐ] is the only animal that you can drink. Sol505000 (talk) 16:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’ll have to listen to EastEnders more closely and find some more Kiwi speakers to listen to then I guess but this does seem possible, I’m from the West Midlands in England myself. In the same vein it might be worth mentioning the way phrases like ‘get off’ are pronounced ‘geroff’ by some English speakers (more typically in the North and occasionally the Midlands than the South though)Overlordnat1 (talk) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also intrusive r can replace a glottalised t in the middle of a word, in South Yorkshire in particular people often say ‘Ah’m gerrin’ berra’ instead of ‘I’m getting better’.Overlordnat1 (talk) 18:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Ireland

It’s odd to see no mention of the SQUARE-NURSE and NOW-NIGH mergers when it comes to Northern Ireland, especially considering that the article suggests the ‘PUT vowel’ and ‘LOOSE vowel’ are fully merged in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, which is blatantly untrue, as the merger is only partial in Northern Ireland, in particular, and Scotland. Other than that an excellent article (though I’m also of the opinion that as far as the ‘STRUT vowel’ and ‘schwa’ are concerned, that’s a distinction in need of a difference)Overlordnat1 (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ð as in nəreɪnðrə

Could someone have a look at the English pronunciation given at Narendra Modi? An editor recently changed the ds to ðs, arguing that it better reflects the native pronunciation. I find that doubly baffling – first, because if I'm not mistaken, the English pronunciation is normally given in a broad phonemic transcription, and not in narrow phonetic one reflecting a particular variety of English. Second, if the goal of the ð is to represent the dental/alveolar d common in many varieties of Indian English, then it fails at that. The symbol for this sound is [d̪], not [ð]. In IPA, ð stands for the voiced dental fricative, which is not found in Indian English (or at least not as an allophone of this phoneme). It's not found in Hindi either, and as for the native language of the article's subject – Gujarati – it occurs, but as an allophone of /dh/, not /d/. – Uanfala (talk) 21:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Periodically, well-meaning Indian English speakers get confused by ⟨ð⟩, as the English example words used to illustrate its phonetic features are pronounced in their dialect as a plosive (e.g. this is pronounced as [ðɪs] in many dialects of English, but as d̪ɪs in Indian English). I've corrected the article's transcription. We can invite the editor in question to this discussion if they continue to restore their preferred version. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 23:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Or better yet, replace it with a sourced transcription, or a non-English one. The audio sample (which seems to be serving as the source here) is clearly not in English (Hindi or Gujarati I assume). Many India-related transcriptions and audio demonstrations lack an indication of what language they're in (as in Mohammad Hamid Ansari), which should be addressed. Nardog (talk) 00:36, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't write patronizingly about well-meaning Indian English speakers. I'm not an Indian English speaker. We can't pronounce the d in Modi's name as in the English d. We don't pronounce Francois Mitterand in literal English on WP. The closest for the d in Modi for an average English speaker is the voiced th (as in the Arabic ذ ) Obviously neither the voiced th, nor the voiceless are found in Indian languages. If an Indian IPA needs to be used, then so be it, but that needs to be settled at Talk:Modi. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's up to the editors of the article to decide which languages the pronunciation should be in. But once decided, the pronunciation should be in that language. For English, that's /nəˈreɪndrə/ (or possibly /nəˈrɛndrə/?). For Hindi – [nəˈɾeːndɾə]. For Gujarati, I don't know. – Uanfala (talk) 13:51, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the audio, Modi pronounces his name at his inauguration. (It was modeled on the audio in Kamala Harris clipped from her inauguration, and it replaced an unstressed rendition by a generic WPian) We can't be sure that the pronunciation is wholly Gujarati or for that matter wholly Hindi. Modi is a native Gujarati speaker who took his oath in Hindi in front of a largely Hindi-speaking audience. Thanks for the high-flowing words, but in the meantime true to your MO you have chosen to edit war in adolescent fashion on that page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And pray tell me WikiPolice, how will you pronounce his middle name, Damodardas, in English? That is, without listening to Modi do it. The English version will sound in gumption more and more like an English-speaking tourist in France insisting on calling the late president Frank-oys Mitter-and. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Prescribing a fricative pronunciation of a dental stop is a very bad idea. Not only does the native pronunciation of his name not contain a fricative, the voiced alveolar stop in English is borderline indistinguishable from [d̪]. All foreign dental stops are approximated with /t d/ in English and th-stopping is most typically heard as a replacement of /θ ð/ with /t d/ ("tink diss true" for "think this through") regardless of whether the two pairs actually merge. Sol505000 (talk) 15:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm with Nardog on finding a reliable source that gives the English pronunciation. In the meantime, if this continues to be an issue of contention, we can just take the transcription out until we get such a source. Also, in the meantime, it would be appreciated if Fowler&fowler could ramp down the hostility and focus on policy based rationale for edits. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 20:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The IPA was originally in Gujarati and listening to the audio sample carefully (bear in mind it is Narendra Modi himself pronouncing his name), it is clearly not an English pronunciation, so I don't know why it got changed to English in the first place. I've rarely heard any English speaker pronounce his first name as /nəˈreɪndrə/, most English speakers, especially in the UK and US, are more likely to pronounce it as /nəˈrɛndrə/. Also, regarding the issue of [ð], the Help:IPA/Gujarati page does state in a footnote that [ð] is a spirant allophone of [d], with the Gujarati phonology page stating that [ð] may occur intervocalically in place of [d] so I believe Gujarati is more suitable for this or even Hindi rather than English. So as a result, I would suggest removing the English IPA completely and replacing it with either Hindi or Gujarati because those would be more appropriate for the audio sample - since that is Modi's voice in the audio sample, we also have to consider the fact that Modi himself rarely speaks English in public speeches so it is highly unlikely he would pronounce his name according to how English speakers pronounce it. I would only support the inclusion of an English IPA if there is a sourced pronunciation available for it or if there is a common pronunciation in use among most English speakers. Broman178 (talk) 09:56, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Broman178: Go for it. FWIW there are sources for /nəˈrɛndrə/ readily available: [1][2]. Nardog (talk) 11:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've just removed the English IPA and restored the Gujarati one as that is more suitable for that pronunciation (which clearly doesn't sound English). If anyone wants the English IPA to still be there, it either has to be discussed or added with a source. Broman178 (talk) 14:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just a sidenote that the [ð] in Gujarati, at least according to the two pages linked, is an allophone of /dʱ/, a phoneme that doesn't appear in Modi's name. – Uanfala (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, I guess I looked at those two pages a bit too quickly so I mistook [dʱ] as being [d]. Thanks for the correction. Broman178 (talk) 14:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

NURSE vowel

Is there a reason for the omission of the NURSE vowel /ɜː/ in the column for non-rhotic strong vowels, and its appearance lower down in the "Marginal Segments" table? If WP objects to the use of this symbol, I would have thought a note was needed to explain. RoachPeter (talk) 08:13, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimately, it has to do with our “diaphonemic” approach to phonemic transcriptions. I have never been a big fan personally, but we have repeatedly confirmed that this is our approach. Consequently, we are basically prescribing rhotic transcriptions, so the normal NURSE vowel is always rhotic /ɜːr/. Plain /ɜː/ is among the marginal signs because it is only intended for words like Pho or Goethe that do not have any R at all. We have only included this sign after long discussions, see Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 23#RfC: Should we acknowledge /ɜː/ as a marginal diaphoneme distinct from /ɜːr/? --mach 🙈🙉🙊 09:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - I can see you were not exaggerating when you referred to "long discussions", and I certainly don't want to open up that issue again. The English example I was initially concerned about was 'colonel', which is /kɜ:nəl/ in RP and /kɜ:rnəl/ in AmE, but not, as far as I know, /kɜ:rnəl/ in rhotic British accents. I do find it confusing to have the two columns "Strong vowels" and " ...followed by R" side by side, as the table seems to imply that each cell in the right hand column corresponds to a non-rhotic equivalent in the left. Hence my confusion when the /ɜ:r/ cell in the right column seems to link up with the STRUT vowel /ʌ/ in the left. Indeed, I find it hard to see why some of the items in the right hand columns are labelled as vowels at all. They seem to me to be combinations of vowel plus /r/ - for example in rhotic 'merry' the /er/ bit is not the rhotic equivalent of the DRESS vowel in non-rhotic accents. It is simply the DRESS vowel followed by a /r/. RoachPeter (talk) 08:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is a nitpick but, as the note says, Goethe is to be transcribed with /ɜːr/ since it has the usual NURSE in most North American accents. The argument for /ɜː/ I've found most compelling is Maczkopeti's, namely that it was impossible to include a pronunciation in a reliable source that had a NURSE vowel followed by a vowel with no /r/ in between, as in fauteuil.
Colonel would be transcribed with /ɜːr/ according to our rule as described in the note since it clearly has /r/ in rhotic North American accents, but it may present an interesting challenge to the key if it's pronounced without /r/ in rhotic British accents. That said, our reliance on RP and GA is mostly just a reflection of the dearth of reliable sources for other accents' pronunciation of individual words, especially obscure ones, which the key is mostly for (cf. MOS:LEADPRON). Nardog (talk) 14:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

inconsistent stress

There are a huge number of place names that have the stress on the (ante)penult in GA but on both the (ante)penult and the ult in RP, for example Bangalore. Merr-Web combines the stress marks for this. Would that be useful for us? Often we don't bother to indicate both pronunciations just to avoid the clutter, and this might help. E.g. 'Bangalore' would be /¦bæŋɡə¦lɔːr/ (= UK /ˌbæŋɡəˈlɔːr/, US /ˈbæŋɡəlɔːr/). — kwami (talk) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of it. Not only is it not intuitive what it is for someone unfamiliar with our conventions, but it doesn't make it clear which stress pattern one should apply. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 15:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help_talk:IPA/English&oldid=1029314735

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