Content deleted Content added
No edit summary Tags: Reverted Mobile edit Mobile web edit |
Lowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs) m Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 27) (bot |
||
| Line 1: | Line 1: | ||
{{For|requests for transcription|Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language}} |
{{For|requests for transcription|Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language}} |
||
| ⚫ | |||
{{Skip to talk}} |
|||
{{Round in circles}} |
{{Round in circles|search=no}} |
||
{{FAQ|collapsed=no}} |
{{FAQ|collapsed=no}} |
||
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes| |
{{WikiProjectBannerShell|collapsed=yes| |
||
{{WikiProject Help |
{{WikiProject Help|importance=high}} |
||
{{WP Languages|importance=mid |
{{WP Languages|importance=mid}} |
||
{{WikiProject Linguistics|phonetics=yes}} |
{{WikiProject Linguistics|phonetics=yes}} |
||
}} |
}} |
||
{{reader-facing page}} |
{{reader-facing page}} |
||
{{oldmfd|date= |
{{oldmfd|date=1 March 2008|result=Keep|votepage=Help:Pronunciation}} |
||
| ⚫ | |||
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
{{User:MiszaBot/config |
||
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |
|archiveheader = {{talkarchivenav}} |
||
|maxarchivesize = 100K |
|maxarchivesize = 100K |
||
|counter = |
|counter = 27 |
||
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
|minthreadsleft = 4 |
||
| ⚫ | |||
|minthreadstoarchive = 1 |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
|archive = Help talk:IPA/English/Archive %(counter)d |
|archive = Help talk:IPA/English/Archive %(counter)d |
||
| ⚫ | |||
}} |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
|target=/Archive index |
|target=/Archive index |
||
|mask=/Archive <#> |
|mask=/Archive <#> |
||
| Line 27: | Line 24: | ||
}} |
}} |
||
== |
== Double entry == |
||
Hearing the sound "[[Mid central vowel|ə]]" it sounds more like in f'''u'''r and b'''i'''rd, even in the 'followed by R...' column and syllabic consonants section: |
|||
{| class="wikitable" |
|||
|- |
|||
| ər || LETT'''ER''', forw'''ar'''d, hist'''or'''y |
|||
|- |
|||
| əl || bott'''le''' (either [əl] or [l̩]) |
|||
|- |
|||
| ən || butt'''on''' (either [ən] or [n̩]) |
|||
|- |
|||
| əm || rhyth'''m''' (either [əm] or [m̩]) |
|||
|} |
|||
it sounds more like that. Are the examples COMM'''A''' and b'''a'''zaar correct for ə? ɑː seems to already cover this sound in P'''A'''LM? |
|||
and some examples in the vowels tables are in uppercase like COMMA shouldn't they be in lowercase? |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
:Your questions could be resolved by looking up words in any dictionary (be it [https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/ Oxford], [https://www.ldoceonline.com/ Longman], [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/ Cambridge], [https://www.macmillandictionary.com/ Macmillan], or [https://www.learnersdictionary.com/ Merriam-Webster]) and seeing if it transcribes e.g. ''comma'', ''bazaar'', and ''palm'' with the same symbol. The varieties of English you're familiar with may have simpler sound systems with fewer vowels, but our transcription scheme described on the help page is based on the standard British and American varieties that are represented in those dictionaries. Also note that both our scheme and any dictionary's use a limited set of symbols representing abstract categories of sounds (known as [[phoneme]]s) rather than precise sounds per se. /ə/ in ''comma'' is more [[vowel height|open]] than in ''bazaar'' in many varieties, but they are transcribed with the same symbol because both sounds fall within the same category. As for the uppercase, see the note below the tables in the Key section. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 10:21, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
|||
I think Nardog has the right of it here. Technically that sound is called a schwa and is an unstressed vowel. It verymuch depends on the language or dialect of the listener and how they perceive the sound. [[User:Comes.amanuensis|Comes.amanuensis]] ([[User talk:Comes.amanuensis|talk]]) 22:39, 17 June 2021 (UTC) |
|||
== Is the 'followed by R...' column really required? == |
|||
what is special about the [[Voiced dental, alveolar and postalveolar trills|r]] consonant? any vowel can be followed by any consonant. Is it necessary to show this column? |
|||
also in the syllabic consonants table can't we have any vowel or consonant that section seems incomplete.--[[User:Hackasaur|Hackasaur]] ([[User talk:Hackasaur|talk]]) 19:48, 20 March 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:/r/ is special in that it ''cannot'' occur at the end of words in [[non-rhotic]] accents such as [[Received Pronunciation]]. Vowels followed by /r/ exhibit a variety of special behaviors: /ɒr/ and /ɔːr/ are not distributed the same way /ɒ/ and /ɔː/ are (''story'' doesn't become ''starry'' even in accents that merge ''stock'' and ''stalk''); /ɛə/, /ɪə/, and /ʊə/ are never followed by a consonant other than /r/; and so forth. This is all touched upon in the notes. Also, although you linked "r" to the article about the trills, /r/, when enclosed in slashes rather than square brackets, represents a variety of sounds (usually a sound described as a [[postalveolar approximant]] or [[retroflex approximant]], in many accents of Australia, Canada, Ireland, the UK, and the US). In our system in particular, /r/ in some contexts might also represent nothing—to those who speak non-rhotic accents—because we try to accommodate as many accents as possible at once (see "Dialect variation" section). |
|||
:As for syllabic consonants, I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by that. Only the combination of /ə/ followed by /l/, /n/ or /m/ has the potential to become a syllabic consonant. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 10:42, 21 March 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:To add to the confusion, in dialects with the [[intrusive r]] the ''nothing'' after plain {{IPA|/ɑː ɔː ə/}} (in broad Cockney and New Zealand English even {{IPA|/aʊ/}}, at least in some cases) represents an {{IPA|/r/}} when immediately followed by a vowel. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 19:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::I’m not sure what you mean about {{IPA|/aʊ/}} in New Zealand. Are you suggesting that people there say ‘How about’ as ‘How r-about’ for example? [[User:Overlordnat1|Overlordnat1]] ([[User talk:Overlordnat1|talk]]) 13:17, 7 April 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::The example I'm aware of is the word ''however'', pronounced ''hǣreva'' {{IPA|[hæːˈɹevɐ]}} (rather than {{IPA|[hæəˈɹevɐ]}}. which is less likely) by some speakers instead of the standard NZ {{IPA|[hæʊˈevɐ]}}. In cockney, the example Wells gives in AoE is, I think, ''Now he's done it'', pronounced ''Nǣr e's done it'' {{IPA|[næːˈɹɪizˈdɐnɪʔ]}}, with a dropped h. This, again, is variable, in near-RP speakers from London you'll always get {{IPA|[næʊˈ(h)ɪizˈdɐnɪʔ(t)]}}. All in all, the {{sc2|MOUTH}} vowel ''must'' be a centering diphthong or a front monophthong for this to happen. This {{IPA|[æə ~ æː]}} overlaps with the allophonic range of {{sc2|SQUARE}} in London, so that the difference between ''cow'' and ''care'' can be rather slight in broad cockney. But they're normally distinct, I think. In New Zealand {{sc2|SQUARE}} is close to {{IPA|[iɐ]}} and it merges with {{sc2|NEAR}} instead, so that for Kiwis ''bear'' {{IPA|[biɐ]}} is the only animal that you can drink. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 16:00, 11 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
I’ll have to listen to EastEnders more closely and find some more Kiwi speakers to listen to then I guess but this does seem possible, I’m from the West Midlands in England myself. In the same vein it might be worth mentioning the way phrases like ‘get off’ are pronounced ‘geroff’ by some English speakers (more typically in the North and occasionally the Midlands than the South though)[[User:Overlordnat1|Overlordnat1]] ([[User talk:Overlordnat1|talk]]) 15:02, 12 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
Why is ɪ appearing twice, both under "Vowels" and "Weak vowels"? If we need two entries here, I would expect separate symbols (even if one is a modification of the other with a combining mark of some kind). <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''']] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] 😼 </span> 22:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC) |
|||
Also [[intrusive r]] can replace a glottalised t in the middle of a word, in South Yorkshire in particular people often say ‘Ah’m gerrin’ berra’ instead of ‘I’m getting better’.[[User:Overlordnat1|Overlordnat1]] ([[User talk:Overlordnat1|talk]]) 18:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:I believe the double entries for //ɪ// and //oʊ// are mainly there for historic reasons, back from the day when we were propagating our own idiosyncratic symbols for the weak vowel versions of the two. I have tentatively unified the symbols, keeping all the content. --[[User:J. 'mach' wust|mach]] [[User talk:J. 'mach' wust|🙈🙉🙊]] 06:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== |
== Colons for length symbols == |
||
In the 3rd bullet point of the Dialect variation section colons are used in place of length symbols: |
|||
It’s odd to see no mention of the SQUARE-NURSE and NOW-NIGH mergers when it comes to Northern Ireland, especially considering that the article suggests the ‘PUT vowel’ and ‘LOOSE vowel’ are fully merged in both Northern Ireland and Scotland, which is blatantly untrue, as the merger is only partial in Northern Ireland, in particular, and Scotland. Other than that an excellent article (though I’m also of the opinion that as far as the ‘STRUT vowel’ and ‘schwa’ are concerned, that’s a distinction in need of a difference)[[User:Overlordnat1|Overlordnat1]] ([[User talk:Overlordnat1|talk]]) 14:45, 7 April 2021 (UTC) |
|||
: Most speakers of North American English (with the exception of Eastern New England) do not distinguish between the vowels in father /'fɑ:ðər/ and bother /'bɒðər/, pronouncing the two words as rhymes. If you speak such a dialect, ignore the difference between the symbols /ɑ:/ and /ɒ/. |
|||
I think they need to be replaced. [[Special:Contributions/2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:B1A9:DA55:640A:FC65|2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:B1A9:DA55:640A:FC65]] ([[User talk:2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:B1A9:DA55:640A:FC65|talk]]) 20:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== ð as in nəreɪnðrə == |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
Could someone have a look at the English pronunciation given at [[Narendra Modi]]? [[User:Fowler&fowler|An editor]] recently changed the ''d''s to ''ð''s, arguing that it better reflects the native pronunciation. I find that doubly baffling – first, because if I'm not mistaken, the English pronunciation is normally given in a broad [[phonemic transcription]], and not in narrow phonetic one reflecting a particular variety of English. Second, if the goal of the ''ð'' is to represent the dental/alveolar ''d'' common in many varieties of Indian English, then it fails at that. The symbol for this sound is [d̪], not [ð]. In IPA, ''ð'' stands for the [[voiced dental fricative]], which is not found in Indian English (or at least not as an allophone of this phoneme). It's not found in Hindi either, and as for the native language of the article's subject – Gujarati – it occurs, but as an allophone of /dh/, not /d/. – [[User talk:Uanfala|Uanfala (talk)]] 21:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:Periodically, well-meaning Indian English speakers get confused by {{angbr|ð}}, as the English example words used to illustrate its phonetic features are pronounced in their dialect as a plosive (e.g. ''this'' is pronounced as {{IPA|[ðɪs]}} in many dialects of English, but as {{IPA|d̪ɪs}} in Indian English). I've corrected the article's transcription. We can invite the editor in question to this discussion if they continue to restore their preferred version. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Ƶ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 23:23, 7 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::Or better yet, replace it with a sourced transcription, or a non-English one. The audio sample (which seems to be serving as the source here) is clearly not in English (Hindi or Gujarati I assume). Many India-related transcriptions and audio demonstrations lack an indication of what language they're in (as in [[Mohammad Hamid Ansari]]), which should be addressed. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 00:36, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::Please don't write patronizingly about well-meaning Indian English speakers. I'm not an Indian English speaker. We can't pronounce the d in Modi's name as in the English d. We don't pronounce Francois Mitterand in literal English on WP. The closest for the d in Modi for an average English speaker is the voiced th (as in the Arabic ذ ) Obviously neither the voiced th, nor the voiceless are found in Indian languages. If an Indian IPA needs to be used, then so be it, but that needs to be settled at Talk:Modi. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 13:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::::Well, it's up to the editors of the article to decide which languages the pronunciation should be in. But once decided, the pronunciation should be ''in'' that language. For English, that's {{IPAc-en|n|ə|ˈ|r|eɪ|n|d|r|ə}} (or possibly {{IPAc-en|n|ə|ˈ|r|ɛ|n|d|r|ə}}?). For Hindi – {{IPA-hi|nəˈɾeːndɾə|}}. For Gujarati, I don't know. – [[User talk:Uanfala|Uanfala (talk)]] 13:51, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::::In the audio, Modi pronounces his name at his inauguration. (It was modeled on the audio in [[Kamala Harris]] clipped from her inauguration, and it replaced an unstressed rendition by a generic WPian) We can't be sure that the pronunciation is wholly Gujarati or for that matter wholly Hindi. Modi is a native Gujarati speaker who took his oath in Hindi in front of a largely Hindi-speaking audience. Thanks for the high-flowing words, but in the meantime true to your MO you have chosen to edit war in adolescent fashion on that page. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 14:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
{{od}} And pray tell me WikiPolice, how will you pronounce his middle name, Damodardas, in English? That is, without listening to Modi do it. The English version will sound in gumption more and more like an English-speaking tourist in France insisting on calling the late president Frank-oys Mitter-and. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</span>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<span style="color:#708090">«Talk»</span>]] 14:10, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:Prescribing a fricative pronunciation of a dental stop is a very bad idea. Not only does the native pronunciation of his name ''not'' contain a fricative, the voiced alveolar stop in English is borderline indistinguishable from {{IPA|[d̪]}}. ''All'' foreign dental stops are approximated with {{IPA|/t d/}} in English and [[th-stopping]] is most typically heard as a replacement of {{IPA|/θ ð/}} with {{IPA|/t d/}} ("tink diss true" for "think this through") regardless of whether the two pairs actually merge. [[User:Sol505000|Sol505000]] ([[User talk:Sol505000|talk]]) 15:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::I'm with Nardog on finding a reliable source that gives the English pronunciation. In the meantime, if this continues to be an issue of contention, we can just take the transcription out until we get such a source. Also, in the meantime, it would be appreciated if Fowler&fowler could ramp down the hostility and focus on policy based rationale for edits. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Ƶ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 20:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::The IPA was originally in Gujarati and listening to the audio sample carefully (bear in mind it is Narendra Modi himself pronouncing his name), it is clearly not an English pronunciation, so I don't know why it got changed to English in the first place. I've rarely heard any English speaker pronounce his first name as {{IPAc-en|n|ə|ˈ|r|eɪ|n|d|r|ə}}, most English speakers, especially in the UK and US, are more likely to pronounce it as {{IPAc-en|n|ə|ˈ|r|ɛ|n|d|r|ə}}. Also, regarding the issue of [ð], the [[Help:IPA/Gujarati]] page does state in a footnote that [ð] is a spirant allophone of [d], with the [[Gujarati phonology]] page stating that [ð] may occur intervocalically in place of [d] so I believe Gujarati is more suitable for this or even Hindi rather than English. So as a result, I would suggest removing the English IPA completely and replacing it with either Hindi or Gujarati because those would be more appropriate for the audio sample - since that is Modi's voice in the audio sample, we also have to consider the fact that Modi himself rarely speaks English in public speeches so it is highly unlikely he would pronounce his name according to how English speakers pronounce it. I would only support the inclusion of an English IPA if there is a sourced pronunciation available for it or if there is a common pronunciation in use among most English speakers. [[User:Broman178|Broman178]] ([[User talk:Broman178|talk]]) 09:56, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::::{{re|Broman178}} Go for it. FWIW there are sources for {{IPAc-en|n|ə|ˈ|r|ɛ|n|d|r|ə}} readily available: [https://pronounce.voanews.com/phrasedetail.php?id=2848][https://www2b.c0.abc.net.au/abcpronunciation-external/Search.aspx#?S=Modi,%20Narendra]. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 11:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::::I've just removed the English IPA and restored the Gujarati one as that is more suitable for that pronunciation (which clearly doesn't sound English). If anyone wants the English IPA to still be there, it either has to be discussed or added with a source. [[User:Broman178|Broman178]] ([[User talk:Broman178|talk]]) 14:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::::Just a sidenote that the [ð] in Gujarati, at least according to the two pages linked, is an allophone of /dʱ/, a phoneme that doesn't appear in Modi's name. – [[User talk:Uanfala|Uanfala (talk)]] 12:53, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:::::Oops, I guess I looked at those two pages a bit too quickly so I mistook [dʱ] as being [d]. Thanks for the correction. [[User:Broman178|Broman178]] ([[User talk:Broman178|talk]]) 14:24, 29 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
== Inclusion of /ts/ as a marginal phoneme and removal of /ʔ/ == |
|||
== NURSE vowel == |
|||
/ʔ/ is an entirely paralinguistic sound and "uh-oh" is not a valid word to base the inclusion of a marginal phoneme around. However, seeing and /ts/ is a common marginal phoneme in words like "tsar" or "Mozart", including it would probably be valid. [[User:Plexus96|Plexus96]] ([[User talk:Plexus96|talk]]) 14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC) |
|||
:Ultimately, it has to do with our “diaphonemic” approach to phonemic transcriptions. I have never been a big fan personally, but we have repeatedly confirmed that this is our approach. Consequently, we are basically prescribing rhotic transcriptions, so the normal NURSE vowel is always rhotic /ɜːr/. Plain /ɜː/ is among the marginal signs because it is only intended for words like [[Pho]] or [[Johann Wolfgang von Goethe#cite note-3|Goethe]] that do not have any R at all. We have only included this sign after long discussions, see [[Help talk:IPA/English/Archive 23#RfC: Should we acknowledge /ɜː/ as a marginal diaphoneme distinct from /ɜːr/?]] --[[User:J. 'mach' wust|mach]] [[User talk:J. 'mach' wust|🙈🙉🙊]] 09:54, 14 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::Thanks - I can see you were not exaggerating when you referred to "long discussions", and I certainly don't want to open up that issue again. The English example I was initially concerned about was 'colonel', which is /kɜ:nəl/ in RP and /kɜ:rnəl/ in AmE, but not, as far as I know, /kɜ:rnəl/ in rhotic British accents. I do find it confusing to have the two columns "Strong vowels" and " ...followed by R" side by side, as the table seems to imply that each cell in the right hand column corresponds to a non-rhotic equivalent in the left. Hence my confusion when the /ɜ:r/ cell in the right column seems to link up with the STRUT vowel /ʌ/ in the left. Indeed, I find it hard to see why some of the items in the right hand columns are labelled as vowels at all. They seem to me to be combinations of vowel plus /r/ - for example in rhotic 'merry' the /er/ bit is not the rhotic equivalent of the DRESS vowel in non-rhotic accents. It is simply the DRESS vowel followed by a /r/. [[User:RoachPeter|RoachPeter]] ([[User talk:RoachPeter|talk]]) 08:55, 15 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
::This is a nitpick but, as [[Help:IPA/English#cite_note-13|the note]] says, ''Goethe'' is to be transcribed with {{IPAc-en|ɜːr}} since it has the usual NURSE in most North American accents. The argument for {{IPAc-en|ɜː}} I've found most compelling is Maczkopeti's, namely that it was impossible to include a pronunciation in a reliable source that had a NURSE vowel followed by a vowel with no /r/ in between, as in ''fauteuil''. |
|||
::''Colonel'' would be transcribed with {{IPAc-en|ɜːr}} according to our rule as described in the note since it clearly has /r/ in rhotic North American accents, but it may present an interesting challenge to the key if it's pronounced without /r/ in rhotic British accents. That said, our reliance on RP and GA is mostly just a reflection of the dearth of reliable sources for other accents' pronunciation of individual words, especially obscure ones, which the key is mostly for (cf. [[MOS:LEADPRON]]). [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 14:30, 15 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:/ʔ/ is included for Hawaiian loans. It's illustrated by ''uh-oh'' simply because it's one of the most common and intuitive ways to illustrate the sound; it doesn't mean it's only used in paralanguage. |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
:/t/ and /s/ are already phonemes so there's no need to list /ts/ separately. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 00:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== IPA overwhelming == |
|||
There are a huge number of place names that have the stress on the (ante)penult in GA but on both the (ante)penult and the ult in RP, for example [[Bangalore]]. Merr-Web combines the stress marks for this. Would that be useful for us? Often we don't bother to indicate both pronunciations just to avoid the clutter, and this might help. E.g. 'Bangalore' would be {{IPA|/¦bæŋɡə¦lɔːr/}} (= UK {{IPA|/ˌbæŋɡəˈlɔːr/}}, US {{IPA|/ˈbæŋɡəlɔːr/}}). — [[User:Kwamikagami|kwami]] ([[User talk:Kwamikagami|talk]]) 23:25, 16 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:I'm not a fan of it. Not only is it not intuitive what it is for someone unfamiliar with our conventions, but it doesn't make it clear which stress pattern one should apply. — [[User:Aeusoes1|Ƶ§œš¹]] <span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA">[[User talk:aeusoes1|<small><sub>[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]</sub></small>]]</span> 15:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC) |
|||
IPA is overwhelming, redundant, and not user friendly. If you use the basic latin sounds the phonics are all there and we all know them. No need to learn a whole new set of sounds that are extremely numerous and cumbersome. [[Special:Contributions/136.143.149.206|136.143.149.206]] ([[User talk:136.143.149.206|talk]]) 17:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC) |
|||
== IPA cannot cover dialectal variations == |
|||
:We don't "all know them", though. Your west coast US pronunciation will be different from mine. [[WP:RESPELL]] describes how simple pronunciation guides don't always work. For instance, I pronounce "[[English-language vowel changes before historic /r/|"Mary", "marry", and "merry"]] differently, but know that some Americans don't. The same applies to [[Cot–caught merger|"cot" and "caught"]]. Some of my compatriots pronounce [[Trap–bath split|"aren't" and "aunt"]] differently, but I don't. [[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]]) 18:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC) |
|||
It makes no sense to try using IPA as a guide to "regional" or other dialectal variations in pronunciation, as it was designed to represent a standard (hence "I" for "international") pronunciation of English. Therefore most of the section on "Dialect variation" is superfluous or outright counterproductive. Witness the discussion of imagined differentiations (or non-differentiations) between the stressed vowels in "merry", "Mary" and "marry", or the ubiquitous admonitions headed "If you speak such a dialect ..." - even such speakers can and should know and learn what the standard pronunciation is. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/212.17.118.122|212.17.118.122]] ([[User talk:212.17.118.122#top|talk]]) 06:52, 23 June 2021 (UTC)</small> |
|||
:This is the exact opposite of the criticism often levied against this key (or use of the IPA for (dia)phonemic representations for that matter), namely that because the IPA represents specific phonetic sounds, it can't be used to represent a wide range of accents. If you read the ''Handbook of the IPA'' or any phonetics textbook, you'll know that neither criticism is valid. The IPA can be employed in all sorts of transcriptions with various degrees of narrowness and underlying analysis, from impressionistic to fully allophonic to partially allophonic to phonemic to diaphonemic, as long as the value of each symbol is either self-evident or set out in a key (like this), and is applied consistently. [[User:Nardog|Nardog]] ([[User talk:Nardog|talk]]) 09:22, 23 June 2021 (UTC) |
|||
:There is no “standard pronunciation” that “speakers can and should know and learn”. Our diaphonemic transcription is a standard transcription of sorts – not a standard pronunciation – that tries to accomodate major accents of English. This approach is unique to the English Wikipedia and not used in other encyclopedias or dictionaries, which is why it is occasionally criticized. --[[User:J. 'mach' wust|mach]] [[User talk:J. 'mach' wust|🙈🙉🙊]] 05:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC) |
|||
| ⚫ | |||
Peshawar family kpk [[User:Zshid|Zshid]] ([[User talk:Zshid|talk]]) 19:17, 28 June 2021 (UTC) |
|||
On the help page, we show both primary and secondary stress marks, yet we never define how we do (or don't) use those symbols in the diaphonemic system. I believe the last chat we had arriving at some consensus was [[Help_talk:IPA/English/Archive_26#Secondary_stress|here]], where we agreed on WP to assign secondary stress only to a strong vowel ''preceding'' primary stress but not to a strong vowel ''succeeding'' it (i.e., following the British rather than American convention). It seems like it would be helpful to explain this, and even the concept of how secondary stress operates in English at all, if anyone can think of a concise wording for the concept. [[User:Wolfdog|Wolfdog]] ([[User talk:Wolfdog|talk]]) 12:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC) |
|||
Snakes video family kpk registration [[User:Zshid|Zshid]] ([[User talk:Zshid|talk]]) 19:18, 28 June 2021 (UTC) |
|||
Revision as of 17:28, 19 June 2024
 | This help page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Double entry
Why is ɪ appearing twice, both under "Vowels" and "Weak vowels"? If we need two entries here, I would expect separate symbols (even if one is a modification of the other with a combining mark of some kind). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 22:05, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- I believe the double entries for //ɪ// and //oʊ// are mainly there for historic reasons, back from the day when we were propagating our own idiosyncratic symbols for the weak vowel versions of the two. I have tentatively unified the symbols, keeping all the content. --mach 🙈🙉🙊 06:11, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Colons for length symbols
In the 3rd bullet point of the Dialect variation section colons are used in place of length symbols:
- Most speakers of North American English (with the exception of Eastern New England) do not distinguish between the vowels in father /'fɑ:ðər/ and bother /'bɒðər/, pronouncing the two words as rhymes. If you speak such a dialect, ignore the difference between the symbols /ɑ:/ and /ɒ/.
I think they need to be replaced. 2001:BB6:B84C:CF00:B1A9:DA55:640A:FC65 (talk) 20:13, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
Inclusion of /ts/ as a marginal phoneme and removal of /ʔ/
/ʔ/ is an entirely paralinguistic sound and "uh-oh" is not a valid word to base the inclusion of a marginal phoneme around. However, seeing and /ts/ is a common marginal phoneme in words like "tsar" or "Mozart", including it would probably be valid. Plexus96 (talk) 14:36, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- /ʔ/ is included for Hawaiian loans. It's illustrated by uh-oh simply because it's one of the most common and intuitive ways to illustrate the sound; it doesn't mean it's only used in paralanguage.
- /t/ and /s/ are already phonemes so there's no need to list /ts/ separately. Nardog (talk) 00:42, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
IPA overwhelming
IPA is overwhelming, redundant, and not user friendly. If you use the basic latin sounds the phonics are all there and we all know them. No need to learn a whole new set of sounds that are extremely numerous and cumbersome. 136.143.149.206 (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
- We don't "all know them", though. Your west coast US pronunciation will be different from mine. WP:RESPELL describes how simple pronunciation guides don't always work. For instance, I pronounce ""Mary", "marry", and "merry" differently, but know that some Americans don't. The same applies to "cot" and "caught". Some of my compatriots pronounce "aren't" and "aunt" differently, but I don't. Bazza 7 (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Text on secondary stress
On the help page, we show both primary and secondary stress marks, yet we never define how we do (or don't) use those symbols in the diaphonemic system. I believe the last chat we had arriving at some consensus was here, where we agreed on WP to assign secondary stress only to a strong vowel preceding primary stress but not to a strong vowel succeeding it (i.e., following the British rather than American convention). It seems like it would be helpful to explain this, and even the concept of how secondary stress operates in English at all, if anyone can think of a concise wording for the concept. Wolfdog (talk) 12:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)