THC Science

This user may sometimes share an IP address with Halo Jerk1.

Welcome to my talk page. I have been editing Wikipedia since 2007. If you want to know more about me, see my user page. My work, like a lot of others, has been complimented and criticized. And in March 2012, I was even blocked. See the block cases. And it's during that first block case that I learned a lot about WP:Assume good faith and who you can count on to be there for you; that experience has made me more acrimonious towards Wikipedia, and this feeling was intensified with my second block case (again, refer to the block cases link). Still, I believe that it's best that I help this site, seeing as many people come here for information (it's almost always ranking highest in search engines, and that type of thing is always going to bring in a lot of readers) and a lot of those people trust what they read here. So it's my job to make sure that any topic I am heavily editing is as accurate as possible.

Especially see User:Flyer22#Main type of editing style for why what you consider neutral, or what you consider needed with regard to images, likely differs from my view; don't know about you, but I'm following Wikipedia policies and/or guidelines in that regard. Any questions, compliments or criticism of my Wikipedia work, feel free to leave me a message here on my talk page or email me. If you leave me a message here, I will usually reply here.

Wikipedia talk:Article titles

Hello, Flyer22 Frozen. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:Article titles.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hi! You seemed to be the only neutral party to this discussion. If you get a chance, could you please revisit my (overly wordy) response and see if I've now met the threshold? Thanks! --Chaswmsday (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Chaswmsday, sorry to let you down, considering that I usually try to be helpful when a Wikipedian asks me for help with regard to a Wikipedia matter (I know what it's like to need that outside opinion or some other kind of additional help, especially when dealing with an editor or editors who are misinterpreting a guideline or policy or just don't care that they are), but I don't have anything more to add to the "Is exceptional treatment of alternative names within WP:USRD allowed?" discussion. At least not at this time. Flyer22 (talk) 05:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Teenage Pregnancy - Media Portrayal

Hi Flyer22. I suspect you're right [1], but can you point me to the relevant TV and film policy that states "the fiction serves as the source for plot material". I'll probably argue that while that's fine for articles about TV episodes and films, for other topics we should have secondary sources relating the media material to the article topic. I have to ask why you didn't revert the deletion of this material if you felt that it was appropriate? Anyhow, as it was large chunk of work, its deletion probably should be discussed on the talk page. Would you like to start the discussion? FiachraByrne (talk) 03:43, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in addition to that link, you are referring to this, this and this link. WikiProjects don't have policies, but with regard to practice or official guidelines... For WP:TV, there is WP:TVPLOT and we had a big discussion about such sourcing at WP:SOAPS in 2011 (WP:TV editors took part in that discussion); you can find that discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Soap Operas/Archive 5#Storylines sections lack references. For WP:FILM, there is WP:FILMPLOT, though, in part it states, "in film articles" (which can support your argument that such a "the fiction sources itself" approach is only appropriate in the article about that particular fiction). And, nah, I'm not interested in starting a discussion about the removal of the Media section in the Teenage pregnancy article; anyone else is free to do so, of course.

As for reverting, I didn't revert Kww because I didn't care much to revert (didn't care much that the content was removed), and because I'm pretty worn out by Wikipedia these days and avoid (or try to avoid) WP:Edit wars or any of the other possible drama that comes with this site when I feel that I can. The times that I don't avoid such matters...it's because I feel that I have to get involved with them. Because I work in contentious topics, it's not very easy to avoid them, however. Like I've stated before, I'm not the same Flyer22 (one of the many editors who generally liked Wikipedia). If I were her, didn't have the extra personal issues I have these days, it wouldn't be taking me so long to substantially fix up Wikipedia articles that I know need fixing up. I'm generally lazy around this site now, unless reverting vandalism and/or other unconstructive edits. Flyer22 (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it was original research. It took a series of events sourced only to primary material and made conclusions and generalizations about the treatment of teenage pregnancy in media based on them. That's original research. A statement about the plot of the Gilmore Girls isn't original research, but "Other fiction, particularly in a long-running television series..." is.—Kww(talk) 05:42, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The WP:Original research policy states: Wikipedia articles must not contain original research. The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.

Its reference for that line states: By "exists", the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source.

So, no, because sources exist for a lot of that material (including stating that those matters are examples of [so and so]), I can't agree with you that the material you removed was WP:Original research. Or rather not that all of it was. Like I stated, most of it (the significant majority of it) was/is not WP:Original research, but simply a reiteration of the plot and stating that the plot is an example of [so and so]; looking at the Wikipedia articles for those works show that they are examples of what that text stated. I would agree that what you removed in this regard is WP:Synthesis, which is an aspect of WP:Original research, but the text wasn't synthesizing sources. The text was certainly WP:Editorializing, however.

Also, if either of you want to discuss this matter further, I suggest you copy and paste this section to the article's talk page, considering that I don't care much about it (that the aforementioned material is in or out of the article). Flyer22 (talk) 06:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Flyer22; sorry to hear that you're in the slough of WP despond. I'll link to this discussion on Talk:Teenage pregnancy. Best FiachraByrne (talk) 14:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My edit

The reason why I deleted what I did from the "Wilton High School" page is that it makes no sense to have a heading called Athletics and then just have it contain two entries, both about lacrosse. It was superfluous information and reeked of someone trying to promote something to which they are personally attached (lacrosse).

Please restore my edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.233.214.171 (talk) 01:59, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What?? Involuntary celibacy article

I think I came upon the article in the middle of your setting up the AfD; it appeared to be broken, and I couldn't figure out how to get it listed or a talk place established. htom (talk) 22:59, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OtterSmith (htom), regarding this, I didn't set up the WP:AfD for that (currently) problematic article. Check its edit history. And I was more so taken aback by your "Help, please, this AfD is goofed up." message on the article page than by your speedy deletion tag. If you meant to place that message within the speedy deletion tag, that would have been a bit better, however. Otherwise, we don't leave such messages on the article page.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with "Involuntary celibacy article" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 23:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't add the speedy; I added a tag, "{ {Db-u1} }Help, please, this AfD is goofed up." expecting some admin to fix the AfD. Instead, the speedy was added, and I gave up. Sorry about the poor section title. Hope you have a great new year! htom (talk) 23:34, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Mergers

Hi Flyer22, and a happy new year! I've moved the conversation here, as I won't have time for the next few weeks to monitor and/or update the MOS, and with what appears to be consensus, hopefully we can consider the matter closed and future discussions can occur in separate threads. I hope that you're well and enjoying this new year with some lovely time off! (Or work, whichever you'd prefer!) With respect to mergers, I am both in and out. I am a strong believer in mergers where the content is duplicating the parent article, but for unique anatomical structures, such as veins and arteries, care has to be taken in performing the merge to ensure that all the information is preserved. That said, my next major project will be to try and integrate the separate articles on bony anatomy with their parents (eg Root of spine of scapula -> Spine of scapula). It all depends on consensus. That said, on my wiki-Christmas wishlist, I would really love a cleanup listing of the WP:ANATOMY articles so I can actually see where mergers have been proposed rather than haphazardly happening upon them. At any rate, I feel the process of actively proposing mergers by different users, even if I don't agree, is quite useful, because it keeps the project active and communicating. Cheers, --LT910001 (talk) 23:46, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Removed text

Hello Flyer22 -- Appreciate your comments. Just fyi, I removed the part of your comment that may (or may not) revealed someone's identity. :-) Memills (talk) 20:10, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Memills, with regard to this, I don't consider it WP:Outing since you linked to it and since I think this identity matter has been discussed with regard to Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. I call on Binksternet, who has been thoroughly involved in that case to relay if what I did is a form WP:Outing. Or maybe one of my talk page watchers have something to state on this matter, whether it needs to be WP:Oversighted? Flyer22 (talk) 20:22, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me to a matter of simple courtesy to err on the side of discretion, especially when it is requested. To my knowledge, this issue has not been discussed at Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. Memills (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does. But why link that way, given the connection that is likely to be drawn if you don't intend for the connection to be drawn? As for Men's rights movement/Article probation, I wasn't talking about it having been discussed there. I was talking about the identity matter having been noted and/or discussed on Wikipedia before and that it is related to the Men's rights movement/Article probation, though I can't pinpoint where at the moment (whether what used to be your user page, on your talk page or somewhere else on Wikipedia). Since JamesBWatson has been involved in this matter as well, I also ping him to comment on this WP:Outing topic. Flyer22 (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And for further clarification: I wasn't aware of the name before today, but I did think that the name was already out there on Wikipedia (judging by comments on your talk page about classes and such) and did not know that mentioning it could be WP:Outing. Flyer22 (talk) 21:20, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, when in doubt, better to error on the side of discretion re WP:Outing. Since you seem to be unwilling to do so, I will request that this be WP:Oversighted. As an alternative, if you wish, just delete this section, and I will consider the matter closed. Thanks. Memills (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not unwilling to do so. I simply prefer to know if I am actually committing a WP:Outing violation by noting that an article that a Wikipedia editor has linked to is written by that Wikipedia editor. For example, when an editor sources or tries to source content in a Wikipedia article using a piece that he or she is the author of, such a matter is often noted on Wikipedia. I'm trying to see the difference with this case involving you, besides the fact that you were not trying to use your article as a source in the Wikipedia article. For example, is it more so a matter as to whether the real name is used? That is why I have pinged two editors, and have queried my talk page watchers, to weigh in on this. Flyer22 (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"No, I am not unwilling to do so." Double negative there, which means you are willing to delete this section? Er, right? But, you haven't done so yet.

You write that you have a general question about WP:OUTING. Fine. You can error on the side of discretion by deleting this section as I have requested. Then, you can take your general question to other WP editors / WP pages without further violating my privacy. Memills (talk) 21:53, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A double negative? Hmm. Anyway, you stated, "As an alternative, if you wish, just delete this section, and I will consider the matter closed. Thanks." I've clearly declined the alternative.

You violated your privacy by linking to an article that can quite easily identify you as the author (to anyone who pays good attention to detail). You started this section on my talk page, referring to the post that you removed, which can quite easily be traced by just looking at my or your contributions. But because I decided to link to that removed post that is still viewable in the edit history, you decided to propose that I remove this section from my talk page. I choose to let it be WP:Oversighted. I generally prefer to keep evidence of my talk page interactions...on my talk page (plain as day or archived). Flyer22 (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It may be possible for anyone "who pays good attention" to deduce your identity via your username, the information on your user page, and some web searches. If someone did deduce it, that doesn't mean that you violated your own privacy. Personally, if I deduced it, I would have the courtesy not reveal your identity on a WP Talk page.

However, explicitly identifying someone's real name on the talk page of an article, as you did, is something else: "I just realized that the author of that Psychology Today source is you, if going by the similarity of your Wikipedia username and that author's name." That was both irrelevant to the article Talk page discussion, and, it is WP:OUTTING.

At this point, we wait to hear from the Oversight folks. Memills (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, you violated your own privacy. Unless you think that people are generally too stupid to make such a connection, you shouldn't be providing such a link if you don't want someone to note that connection. Like I stated, such connections are made all the time involving WP:Conflict of interest matters and I don't see this case involving you as too different than that. WP:Outing begins by stating "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia." As noted, you posted the link. And I didn't identify you to harass you; I did so because it was relevant, in my opinion, to note that the very article you were citing is written by you (not that you of course were not already aware that you'd written it). It also is not good form for an editor to cite a source that he or she is the author of, in support of his or her argument, and to make it seem as though that source is written by someone else; before you state that you were not doing that, that it wasn't your intention, it was (taking all of our interaction on this matter into account) to me. As for "the Oversight folks," I clearly welcome them. Flyer22 (talk) 23:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Me too.

WP:Outing and WP:Conflict of interest are quite different.

"I didn't identify you" ...you made a point of it.

"I did so because it was relevant." My identity was not relevant to the Nature vs. Nurture Talk page discussion. Memills (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Of course WP:Outing and WP:Conflict of interest are quite different; I never stated or implied that they are not. I don't think you heard of WP:Outing before I mentioned it today, though. As for the rest, I've already clarified my stance on those matters; no need to repeat. Flyer22 (talk) 23:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Of course WP:Outing and WP:Conflict of interest are quite different; I never stated or implied that they are not."

Yes you did:

"...connections [to identity] are made all the time involving WP:Conflict of interest matters and I don't see this case involving you as too different than that."

And:

"I don't think you heard of WP:Outing before I mentioned it today, though."

Who cares if I have or haven't? It is presumptuous to assume either way, and, moreover, it is irrelevant. Memills (talk) 04:26, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I did not state or imply that WP:Outing and WP:Conflict of interest are the same thing; as shown, I basically stated that your action of having linked that article in the way that you did is not much different than a WP:COI matter. That is not the same thing as stating or implying that it is one; nor is it conflating WP:Outing and WP:Conflict of interest. It is comparing what you did to a WP:COI matter. WP:Conflict of interest matters are generally exempt from being considered WP:Outing. As for you clearly not having been aware of WP:Outing, it's relevant because I feel that you have misapplied it in this discussion; if you were more familiar with that policy, you likely would not misapply it. As for "presumptuous," if it's not obvious to you by now, I'm extremely perceptive (which has been a great benefit on Wikipedia). Either way, I don't see why this discussion is still going on. We disagree on this matter; now we should be waiting to see if anyone else weighs in on it and/or if WP:Oversight is used with regard to it. Flyer22 (talk) 04:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Above, Flyer22 wrote "Since JamesBWatson has been involved in this matter as well, I also ping him to comment on this WP:Outing topic", so here I am. I don't offhand remember when I was involved, and I'm not even sure what "matter" I was involved in. (Nature v nurture? Outing policy? The identity of this particular editor?) Nevertheless, for what it's worth, I will throw in some of my thoughts about the outing issue. I shall start with my own opinions, and then consider what the outing policy says.

At one time, I held the following very simple view of such cases as this: if an editor chooses to provide evidence on Wiki which indicates their own identity (such as using a username related to their real name, and making edits which are directly related to publically available online content connected to their real name) then they have voluntarily made that information available to other Wikipedia editors, and it is absurd to object if others subsequently refer to the information. I found from experience that the outing policy is very often interpreted as forbidding mentioning of real life identites which the user has effectively announced in such a way, but I thought that this was an absurd way of applying the policy.
Over the course of time, however, I have come to realise that things are not always as simple as that. For example, many of us, when we first create a Wikipedia account, do not fully realise what we are letting ourselves in for. I, for example, created my account to do a few trivial adjustments (my first ever edit with this account was removing a mistaken apostrophe). In fact, I have got far more deeply involved in Wikipedia than I originally imagined I ever might, including occasionally making administrative decisions which have prompted fairly vicious responses from disgruntled editors. I have also heard of cases of quite appalling off-wiki harassment. If I had used my real name, or something closely related to it as a username, instead of the pseudonym that I use, it is very likely that I would have come to regret it. I have therefore come to be more sympathetic to editors who, despite having provided information which gives clues as to their real-life identity, do not wish to have that identity publicised.
How about the link given in the edit which is accused of being outing? How relevant is it that the link may have been connected to an editor? In one way, not very. It seems to me to have said, in effect, "this is a brief summary of an idea which I regard as relevant in this discussion, and here is a link to a fuller account of the idea." Seen from that point of view, it could be thought that the identity of the author of the linked material is irrelevant. However, another way of looking at it is that linking to an off-wiki source without declaring a personal involvement with the source is likely to be seen (rightly or wrongly) as attempting to give one's opinion more authority, by appearing to show independent support for it. Doing so was, therefore, in my opinion, unwise. However, I do not have the remotest doubt that thousands of editors do just that, or much worse than that, without anyone suspecting it, because they have hidden their identity behind an opaque pseudonym. It is possible to take the view that anyone who chooses to do that has forfeited their right to hide their identity, but the outing policy quite clearly does not support that view in the case of a fully pseudonymous editor, and is it reasonable to give a lower standard of protection to anyone who has taken fewer pains to hide who they really are?
My conclusions from all this are as follows. Despite the change of opinion over the course of time, which I mentioned above, there are still a few situations where I personally think that the outing policy is interpreted as providing protection to editors in circumstances where they should not be protected, and their actions have been such as to have forfeited any right to confidentiality. However, that applies to situations of serious misconduct, ad this is really not one of them. I think that it was an error of judgement to link to one's own material in this situation, and I also think that it is always at best questionable to link to one's own material without declaring an interest. For those reasons, my sympathy for the editor involved is more limited than it would otherwise be, and I would advise the editor in question not to link to his own material again, unless he is willing to acknowledge his authorship. Nevertheless, the error was a minor one, which did little if any harm to the project, and I don't personally think it was serious enough to justify an exception to the duty of confidentiality which we normally observe.
So far, that has been my personal view. Putting that aside, and turnignto the outing policy, I see the issue as perfectly clear-cut and unambiguous. "Posting another editor's personal information is harassment, unless that person had voluntarily posted his or her own information, or links to such information, on Wikipedia." We are here dealing with personal information which the editor has not voluntarily posted. (Posting information from which another editor is able to infer one's identity is not the same thing as voluntarily posting one's identity.) While my personal opinion would lead me to regard this as a borderline case, in which reverting the edit was probably for the best, policy leads no room for doubt whatever. I have therefore revision-deleted the controversial content, and I shall request oversight.
One final comment, which is not very relevant to this case, but it is perhaps relevant to my expressing some of the views I have expressed. There is one article on Wikipedia where I have edited both the article and its talk page, for which I am the author of relevant content published elsewhere. That content has received a significant amount of attention, and there are hundreds of links to it from various web sources. It would have been relevant to have linked to it in some talk-page discussions. I have never done so, and do not expect ever to do so. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:49, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for weighing in, JamesBWatson. I'd coincidentally just woken up (intend to go back to sleep for a bit soon) minutes before you posted here. Hours before you commented, via email I consulted with a Wikipedia administrator who does not see this matter as a WP:Outing matter, but believes that it would have been best if I had not made the author connection on Wikipedia. That administrator watches my talk page, but I'm not sure if he's willing to add on to your comment on my talk page. You and I see the first line of WP:Outing differently, as shown above. I can't see this matter as WP:Outing since I was not intending to harass and since the editor did (from my view) voluntarily post a link to his personal information (meaning his name, his credentials, etc.); so, it seems, I have the view that you used to have on the WP:Outing topic. I don't even consider the information personal in this case since it concerns an article where his real name, credentials. etc. are available to his readers, are available to anyone who comes across that Psychology Today source online; that's public information that he posted to on Wikipedia. I don't think there is anything that can make me view this as a WP:Outing matter, but I'll take care not to repeat this behavior in the future (not unless a clear-cut WP:COI case). As for "JamesBWatson has been involved in this matter as well"; I had just mentioned Talk:Men's rights movement/Article probation. What I was referring to is your involvement in weighing in on Memills's feminism/masculism editing; see this section and the following section. Flyer22 (talk) 10:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Who cares if it's outing or not? There is no reason to make a big deal about someone linking to an article while discussing issues at a talk page, even if that article may have been written by the editor. There was no appeal to authority or other abuse of logic—it was just "there is some further info here". It was undoubtedly unwise to post a link and then request that the genie be put back in the bottle, but we are not talking about corruption, or any kind of dubious COI, so why not forget about it? We don't seize on a mistake and pursue it, and the outcome of the discussion should not hinge on whether an editor unwisely posted a link. I think the redaction by JamesBWatson was very helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 11:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Oversight committee has made its decision. Flyer22's edit in question has been removed. Flyer22 commented above that "I don't think there is anything that can make me view this as a WP:Outing matter." I hope you reconsider that given their decision. Memills (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Memills, I won't be agreeing that I violated WP:Outing. Not only do I not believe that I did so, but the same goes for Wikipedia editors I have been in email correspondence with about this (including the aforementioned administrator). They have not commented here on my talk page on this matter as to not add fuel to the supposed fire; I wish that at least one of them would, however. And the request for WP:Oversight having been granted does not mean that I violated WP:Outing. So I suggest you stop pressing the issue and carry on as usual. I have considered the "Oversight committee['s]" decision; you should consider what I, as well as JamesBWatson, have stated about you posting a link in the way that you did. If you do so again, do not be surprised if an editor notes it on Wikipedia and/or that they feel you violated your own "privacy" by doing so. Flyer22 (talk) 16:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"WP:Oversight having been granted does not mean that I violated WP:Outing."

What else could it mean?

Anyway... carry on. Memills (talk) 16:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You apparently are not familiar with the fact that WP:Oversight is often granted when a person requests it because they feel that personal information about them is on Wikipedia and they want it removed. Such matters usually involve cases where a person posted personal information about themselves, or a link that leads to such information, and now want it removed; such matters have nothing to do with WP:Outing (unless of course the person feels that that the information could be used to out them).

And do you want the last word or something? Do I have to ban you from my talk page to get you to stop replying to me about this? Flyer22 (talk) 16:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The last word is yours. :-) Memills (talk) 17:23, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shutter Island

Hello! Happy New Year, and hope you're doing well. :) As you can see, I am commenting on the Shutter Island situation. However, in the future, I would recommend keeping the main discussion on the film article's talk page and posting a brief notification at WT:FILM. Otherwise, the discussion gets effectively split. (I commented on the film article's talk page, but others have commented at WT:FILM, making it unclear for additional parties to weigh in.) I've also shared sources that we can use to best define the critical consensus. Thanks, Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 17:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Happy New Year to you as well, Erik. And, LOL, great minds think alike (okay, okay, we sometimes disagree on film matters, but we agree often enough); I was preparing to make this comment before you even posted to my talk page today. I feel the same way about centralizing a discussion. Thanks for your help on this matter, and for the Happy New Year good wishes. Flyer22 (talk) 18:08, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reverts: Pedophilia article

A cookie for you

I wouldnt revert you without discussing, as I do respect you as an editor in this contentious area we both work in♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 17:55, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, what I stated here about you likely reverting... I stated that, SqueakBox, because I know that you are passionate about this topic (and child sexual abuse) and that often, instead of first taking a matter to the talk page, you will revert when you believe that you are right. I've certainly been known to do the same. So my not reverting you was a matter of deciding what the best course of action would be in this case. We have worked fine together in these fields for years, and I wouldn't want anything to sour that. Thank you for your statement about respecting me enough not to revert me (or perhaps you mean that if you had reverted me, you would have discussed it afterward?). If you had reverted me, though, I wouldn't think that you respected me any less. Reverts simply come with the territory on Wikipedia. Also thanks for the cookie.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with ": Pedophilia article" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 18:48, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki 'violations'

"We don't add such notes to articles; it's pretty much a WP:Editorializing violation ..."

I've been using Wiki for as long as you have, probably longer, and registered as a user a year or two ago, but seldom bother to log in. I have read much on many topics, and find a lot of mundane, obscure, and especially redundant material, often within the same article, and regardless of claimed 'policy', find 'violations' on a regular basis, but also find it regularly really only matters depending on whose 'turf' is being threatened. So called policies are in the eye of the editor/beholder/watcher. I've even pointed out to at least one watchdog that ALL of Wiki is 'trivia', in the broadest sense. I understand the watchers protect their pages religiously, that 'power users', devoting so much time to the project, likely have little else in their lives to make them feel powerful. This is NOT a judgement call, sorry.

Why didn't you take up modeling? Why wouldn't any beautiful woman? Yes, you have to resist endless sexual advances, but the actual work isn't ditch digging! (I laugh aloud when I hear actresses/models complain about how tough it is to work in cold weather/water -- like a sewer worker has it easy EVERY day in a freezing sewer!). Use the talents/looks God gave you, and develop new ones for yourself in your spare time, or for your old age. You say 5'3" is too small? Not every model is a 'runway' stick figure. About half of all the 'hot actresses' are under 5'5", so I'm sure it had more to do with self-esteem issues, as we all have to deal with, but some much more realistically than others. Or, perhaps, you're living a fantasy?

Yeah, the edit I made was somewhat 'editorial', but pointed out the FACT a suspension of belief was required to fully enjoy the show (never mind the dialogue/repartee which everybody loved was completely unbelievable). The article reader might find my 'trivia' relevant without having to 'click' on the links to the two actresses and discover/compute their age difference. Perhaps I should have used different construction or phrasing? But that would still have attracted you. Yeah, I watched the show, saw maybe a dozen or 20 episodes over the years. Reruns likely, as I seem to remember there was something else on at the same time that I favored more. But unless they're fans, the readers here probably have not, more so as time passes. Someone using Wiki to do (here comes a dreaded phase) 'original research' would get a better picture of the facts.

I know, I know -- I've violated all kinds of Wiki policies and guidelines here with this verbiage. And that this entry will be deleted QUICK! But you say you don't answer email and I have a serious question for you: Can you honestly say NONE of your articles regarding 'sexual' issues contain NO 'original research'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.247.57 (talk) 02:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, IP. You got so worked up over this revert? Or was it that I reverted you twice?

As for modeling (I see you read my user page), like I stated, "I turned it down to focus on my own interests." This means that I was not interested in modeling. I assure you that I am not living some fantasy by noting that people wanted me to model, but I didn't want to model and felt that my height would realistically get in the way of it anyway. Yes, I know that there are different types of models and I know that there are many attractive female celebrities that are my height or close to it. But how many 5'3" models have you heard of? Fame isn't everything, but if I was going to model, I would have wanted to reach as high as I could (as they say, "reach for the stars"). So, yes, I suppose I was insecure about my height with regard to modeling. But in the end, modeling just was not, and is still not, my passion career-wise or in any way; the closest I got to it being such is editing and defending aspects of the Supermodel article.

As for "[my] articles regarding 'sexual' issues," I edit various sexual articles and only focus most of my attention on a few of them. Like I've stated on my talk page before, the vast majority of the sexual articles need significant fixing up (yes, a lot of them contain WP:Original research), but I am just one person; there are not enough editors around here who take the time to fix up these articles in the way that I do (meaning extensive sourcing, good formatting and making sure that these articles comply with various Wikipedia policies and guidelines). In fact, I can't think of any other editor who does that. Other editors who edit such articles help out with them here and there, but mostly watch the articles and take care of the maintenance side of them.

As for "this entry will be deleted QUICK!," I usually don't delete personal attacks or posts that can be perceived as personal attacks from my talk page; see, for examples, User talk:Flyer22/Archive 12#Ignorant & Unhelpful (and the section immediately after it) and User talk:Flyer22/Archive 12#Idiotic Sad Case (all by the same IP). Such comments intrigue, if not entertain me. Rarely do they anger me. Some of my talk pages watches will think that I should not have dignified your comment with a reply. But, hey, they aren't me. And replying to such a post doesn't necessarily make it more or less dignified. Oh, and regarding email, I do respond under certain circumstances; like my talk page currently states, "Keep in mind, however, that, concerning Wikipedia, I only regularly email with a select few (and I do mean a very small group of people from this site). So for others, if you email me, make sure that it is about something that makes my user talk page less than ideal to use for that message. Otherwise, I may very well ignore you, especially since replying back will provide you with my email address (one of them anyway)." Flyer22 (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You know what

Keep on reverting vandalism while I take out the minor stuffs. Happy editing. Soham 16:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, Soham, about this edit that I thanked you for via WP:Echo, thanks again. And happy editing to you as well. Flyer22 (talk) 16:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did'n't want to divulge information as to the edit, I received the echo and knew why I was being thanked. Soham 16:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that; I did it so that this section is clear as to what it is about, which also serves as a reminder for me. Your edit was reverted, but I'll leave that matter to you to handle. Flyer22 (talk) 16:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind being reverted, but this kind of editing will only lead to excessive unnecessary admin work. I going to notify the user about his behaviour along with warring nature. Soham 17:32, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That user also has a WP:Pending changes problem, if this case is any indication. It aggravates me to see editors accepting changes that they should not be accepting. This type of bad monitoring is why I'm not a fan of WP:Pending changes; too much mess still gets through that system. Flyer22 (talk) 23:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to pending changes, he or she said it was a mistake and that he or she was about to revert. Hopefully that's the case. Flyer22 (talk) 23:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion that was not a mistake, but AGF. Soham 06:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You've got mail!

Hello, Flyer22 Frozen. Please check your email; you've got mail!
Message added 01:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Zad68 01:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC) Zad68 01:12, 12 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You've got... message!

Dear Flyer22, i am the one that made some -heavy- editing in the "National Youth Organisation (Greece)" at 20:16, 9 January 2014‎ (94.66.14.189), that you reverted. I removed some dead links (most references don't exist anymore), but mostly rephrased the text removing some strong characterizations about the organization been "fascist" (but still keeping some "hints", as it's not clear that it surely was not) - please keep in mind that the regime that created that organization -at the time WW2 was starting- fought AGAINST Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany, plus many members of that organization were Communists (actually, there are still some of those -very- old folks that are currently elected in parliament with left-wing/Communist parties, the same parties that were members while members of that organization!). To be honest i don't know how thinks work in wikipedia (that's my first "contribution" - i don't even know if this place is appropriate for my message!) - i understand that you are an old member and (hoping that it's not an issue of "ideology" - i think that you just try to protect the article from vandalization) i would appreciate if you could help me with my editing (e.g., in the article's title exists the word "Organisation" - i think it must be "Organization"). Thanks. P.S. I am Greek - sorry for my English! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.14.189 (talk) 00:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IP, you removed sourced material without explanation (without an edit summary), and that's why I reverted you. With regard to sourcing, Wikipedia editors should adhere to WP:Verifiability. What WP:Reliable sources do you have to support your claims and counter the article's sourcing? Flyer22 (talk) 00:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is a great explanation! So let me explain myself: Reference "100+1 Years of Greece" (in Greek:"100+1 χρονια Ελλαδα") -that is used 3 times in the article, one as a reference to the phrase "It differed from its Nazi and Fascist Italian counterparts in that it never managed to turn its members into blind followers of the regime"- is a Greek book without an author (seriously!), not in circulation, and not found in any public library - actually it's one of those "books" published just for ideological propaganda. The publisher, named Maniateas (in Greek:"Μανιατεας") is currently... missing because of financial scandals! I include a link (https://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=733045) to the internationally well known anarchist site "indymedia" where -from 2007 to 2012- extreme left-wing people, among them some former employees of him, describe his business as a fraud (in Greek, but you may manage to machine translate it - in the title of that page, after some Greek phrase you will read the English phrase "take the money and run..."). Reference "THE "NATIONAL YOUTH ORGANISATION" OF THE REGIME OF THE 4TH OF AUGUST 1936 (in Greek)" was a web page from a school project, not existing from 2008, that was just two paragraphs of text, again without an author - i include a link to the archived page (http://web.archive.org/web/20081017030223/http://www.istoria-neolaias.gr/stinKoinonia/stinKoinonia_eon.html). References "Archives of the Hellenic Broadcasting Corporation", "Proud march on our schools (in Greek), "The 4th of August and the Youth of an Era (in Greek)", all used just for the text "Some of the activities that EON members were involved in included military training, athletics events, imposing parades and marches, reforestation,[5] trips and community service.[6][7]" - i kept the text but removed the references because the first does not exist, the second is a page about a Greek student complaining for having to march with his school, and the third is also a semi-nationalist blog with opinion articles that does not even have the specific page. Reference "EON magazine" is... a page from a Greek action site (24soldgr), that does not even work anymore! Reference "Photograph of the official emblem and motto" (used twice) is a photograph from an external site - i think you are right, it was my mistake to remove it. Please advise (should i rewrite the article, including the last reference, with an explanation in the edit summary?)... and sorry to bother you in that way- thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.14.189 (talk) 20:22, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Spambot post

Hi thanks for reverting the spam posting at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Atlantic_City_boardwalk&diff=next&oldid=590410359 . However I noticed that you labelled this as good faith. That is not something that I would have called it. We have a dozen or so spambots that post the same style of advertisement on different pages, from many different IP numbers. They target pages with the word "board" or "forum" in the title. If you come across some repetitious spam, I will block these with out warning, as they are robotic editors without human readers behind them, they will not read any warning. Also it can be worth checking for the the links from the spam on other Wiki-pages to see if they managed to avoid getting reverted before. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:01, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Crying Game

I thought you weren't here to play games? Now who's playing the Crying Game? LOL Thanks for clarifying that sodomy can also mean bestiality. No need to get all upset.Cluelesswonder (talk) 17:36, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

With regard my (sort of) interaction with you thus far, seen here, here, here, here and here, and with the message I left you about edit warring, I would be fully justified in "crying" by reporting such behavior (your behavior). Look at your WP:Edit warring, including your WP:3RR violation, at the article in question (Sodomy law), over something so easily WP:Verifiable. Look at your adding a "clarification needed" tag for something you knew the text was referring to and could have clarified yourself. Yes, I'm not here at Wikipedia to play games. And if you honestly didn't know what sodomy typically refers to (including that bestiality is commonly a part of that definition), you do now. If you intend to continue editing at this site, become familiar with Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines and cut out the WP:Battleground editing. Otherwise, editing here will be far from easy for you. Replies like this will sink you fast. Flyer22 (talk) 17:58, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see that I'm not the only one who suspects that you are not a new Wikipedia editor. What tipped me off that you are not? The vast majority of new Wikipedia editors don't know to sign their usernames (even with the editing box staring them in the face and telling them to sign it) and they usually don't talk about primary and secondary sources or know about the "citation needed" tag; the ones that do know about it, don't know how to use it right off the bat. Seems you have also admitted to not being new. Either way, the way that you edit Wikipedia is the typical inexperienced style of a WP:Newbie. Flyer22 (talk) 18:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've blocked Cluelesswonder 48 hours for personal attacks and sockpuppetry, I fully expect the admin who handles that SPI to resolution will block indef, I'm still learning the processes there. Zad68 18:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And indef now, which I've been instructed is the normal procedure. SPI case will be kept open to check for other socks. Zad68 19:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nature, nurture, various associated terms

Hi, Flyer22,

I see you have been busy on a variety of Wikipedia articles. As I see there is now another editor proposing renaming Nature versus nurture to Nature and nurture, a proposal I generally support, I thought I should check in with you to see what sources you suggest would help all of us reach an understanding of what is the mainstream view on that issue and what article title (among several terms already used as redirects or as wikilink terms) would best fit Wikipedia policy on the basis of reliable sources. I'm not in a rush on this, and I will wait while you deal with all the busyness you deal with to hear what you have to say. I wanted to say directly that I think your suggestion to always check WikiProject pages as well as article talk pages before taking on major article edits is a very good idea, and I'm glad you brought that up. I look forward to following that thoughtful suggestion throughout my future editing. See you on the wiki. I hope you are enjoying a good new year. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 23:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

American Hustle

Hi, Flyer. I'm afraid I haven't seen American Hustle yet, so on the chance that you had, and given our and User:Doniago's good work on Titanic (1997 film), I thought you might want to take a crack at the 1,000-word-plus monstrosity over there! I almost laughed when I saw the word-count! : ) --Tenebrae (talk) 23:47, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tenebrae, above you linked to a disambiguation page for the film, but I can see that you are referring to American Hustle (2013 film). And, yikes, that plot summary is definitely out of control. I haven't seen that film yet either, but, since I'm not planning on watching that film any time soon and I won't care much if I'm spoiled on it, I'm willing to take a shot at reducing that plot summary if Doniago is not. But like you know, it's tricky reducing the plot summary for a film that you haven't seen because you are more likely to cut something that should stay. Flyer22 (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

D'oh! Sorry to give the wrong link!

If it helps, changing passive voice to active voice and removing unnecessary "that"s can help whittle things down even when one hasn't seen it. 'Preciate you fighting the good fight! --Tenebrae (talk) 15:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination of The Monsters in the Morning for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Monsters in the Morning is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Monsters in the Morning (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Levdr1lp / talk 12:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your recent edits: Herpes genitalis and Timothy L. Tyler articles

Would you please stop making wholesale reversions of legitimate edits under the pretense that the source does not exist? You recently edited Timothy L. Tyler claiming that there was no mention of his bisexuality. The source specifically says "Tyler, who had girlfriends before his incarceration, has become bisexual while in prison, in search of companionship." http://tbo.com/news/crime/mandatory-minimums-keep-many-nonviolent-people-behind-bars-20130817/ I will detail the other examples. Thanks for focusing on helpful contributions. Ohnohedinnit (talk) 16:10, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As shown here, here, here, here, here and here, I explained why I've reverted you. The wholesale reverts at the Herpes genitalis article were completely justified, per WP:MEDRS and WP:MEDMOS. But on the topic of wholesale revisions, this addition by you that Zad68 reverted is largely a wholesale revision on your part.

And with regard to the Timothy L. Tyler article, I was going by the second source, which was the first one used to support the statement before I rearranged the references by number order. Bisexuality (in this case, the bisexual behavior) is not necessarily the same thing as being bisexual (the sexual orientation; the deep-rooted sexual attraction). I made that very clear in this discussion I pointed you to. There are heterosexual people who have engaged in sexual activity with the same sex, but who are not bisexual. There are gay men and lesbian women who have engaged in sexual activity with the opposite sex, but who are not bisexual. The sexual activity does not change the sexual orientation. And with regard to the article in question, what was the first source did not call Tyler bisexual; it states, "Tyler — who dated women before prison including his sister's best friend — also started having sex with other men in prison because he craved affection. This romance provides a mental escape from the four walls around him." So that source makes it out as though he sought, or still seeks, sex with men while in prison for companionship, not because he truly desires to be with men sexually. In the absence of a woman, it is common for a heterosexual man to take up a romantic and/or sexual relationship with a man while in prison, especially if sentenced to prison for several years, many years or for the rest of one's life. It is common for a heterosexual woman to take up a romantic and/or sexual relationship with a woman while in prison, especially if sentenced to prison for several years, many years or for the rest of one's life. Doing so is called situational sexual behavior (and sometimes by other terms, such as the more common term situational homosexuality), but the Wikipedia article on that subject is currently awful. All that stated, I restored the bisexual aspect to the article because the other source claims that Tyler says he is now bisexual; it states: "Tyler, who had girlfriends before his incarceration, said he has become bisexual while in prison, in search of companionship." Notice, however, that the wording for the bisexuality aspect is essentially the same as the wording for the other source on the bisexuality aspect, expect for the first source making the claim that Tyler says he is bisexual? That source may have taken liberty with the text in that case; in other words, Tyler may very well still identify as heterosexual. I'll clarify in that aforementioned WP:MED discussion that one of the sources does attribute the bisexual matter to the way that Tyler identifies.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with ": Herpes genitalis and Timothy L. Tyler articles" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 17:30, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your screenplay

Wondering what it is about, how far have you got on it; if you need advice let me know although I'm not a professional writer. I wrote a screenplay entitled Fifteenth Reunion in 2009. It could probably be made by an indie shop or even a college or high school film group. I may go back and rework it one of these days. My current project is a coming of age fiction story about a teenaged boy who builds a spaceship, flies to Betelgeuse, meets sexy aliens, and learns about how to be a human. About 250 pages on its second draft. I'm honing, trying to focus it, get it shipshape.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 01:27, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you took the invitation to continue this discussion at my talk page. And if someone gets on to us about a WP:Talk violation here, we can always take the discussion to email. Anyway, on to the discussion of screenplays and screenwriting: Tom, is your screenplay copyright-protected? By that, I mean is it registered with Writers Guild of America, West (WGAW)? If not, you should definitely copyright protect it. Not simply state that it's copyrighted because you wrote it. Also, for feedback on a screenplay, as well as sufficient exposure for it, a good website (perhaps the best website) to go to is TriggerStreet.com.

As for the screenplay that I'm currently working on... Rather than give a decent synopsis, I'll break it down like this: I had been working on one that heavily involves the many-worlds interpretation. The main character in that, a female, has the ability to travel from one reality/world to the next and is desperately trying to get home (to the world she belongs in). As that character states, "In this world, you are standing in front of me listening to me tell you this. In another, you are listening to a different version. In yet another, you are about to be in a car crash. In many, you don't exist at all. ... To know everything about my doppelgängers is to know everything about me. Every possibility. Every path to my world." She has a group that is somehow bound to her and she has promised to get them home as well. With each jump to a different world, which can also happen beyond her control, the group studies their doppelgängers for clues so that they may stop being subjected to different worlds. Studying the doppelgängers is important because the main character has what the group has come to refer to as "The Eye" -- the ability to see each possible outcome that can result from any person's actions. I stopped working on this story for now because it's mentally exhausting (with a twist ending; yes, I already know how I want to end it); it's a real mind-bender. Read the Many-worlds interpretation article, and you'll see what I mean.

The screenplay that I've been working on for a week or more so now also features a female as the main character. Not every story I've written has it to where the main character is female. Half of them don't. I figured that I might as well have such female characters, especially since there are not enough of them in Hollywood. In this story, it's an apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic world divided into "the clean" and "the infected." The clean are the normal people, like you and me. The infected are the people with the ability to multiply their natural strength or speed beyond what is normal, an ability made possible by a mysterious virus that came out of nowhere many generations ago. So they are essentially mutants, sort of like X-Men...but with more realistic power. The infected are essentially oppressed, treated like lower beings and slaughtered solely because they are not normal, and there is an active war going on between these groups of people. The infected are fighting for freedom while the clean are fighting for the eradication of every infected. Now when it comes to fighting for these causes, people have two choices; either join the war directly or join it through the tournaments. The tournaments are a way to represent one's respective side and fight for it in the hopes that enough wins will ensure that side is victorious. For the infected, this means liberation. For the clean, this means they will have the right to exterminate all of the infected once the tournaments are finally over. The main character (in her early 20s) is a part of the infected and runs a camp where she trains fighters for the tournaments. After a bout between two of her fighters early on in the script, a young man (age 19) shows up saying that he has a power that can bring liberation to the infected. Legend has it that once every two centuries, two people with the power to draw out another's spirit and manifest it as a weapon are born; this is called "the godly power." And this is what the young man claims to have. The story moves from there.

So that's it. I'm currently on page 25 of that script; page 24 when it's typeset. Will be further into it tonight and/or very early the following morning. Unlike my other script ideas, this is the one that I will be heavily pursuing filmmaking-wise...eventually. I got the concept of "the godly power" from the anime Guilty Crown (an anime that I watched a few months ago and enjoyed; trailer for it is here). The godly power is based on what, in that anime, is called "the king's power" or "The Power of the Kings"; the stories are very different, of course, though. No plagiarism for me. And while the king's power is about manifesting one's heart (called a "void") as a weapon, the godly power is about manifesting one's spirit (actually the mind) as a weapon. Flyer22 (talk) 03:58, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, Flyer22. I possibly registered my screenplay with WGAW but am not sure, still I am confident that if a respectable film company wants to produce it, they will take the smart route and pay me for it; if I fix it up further (I am not totally happy with the female characters in it, plus some scenes are too teenagerish) then I may register it like you say.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

About your 2nd screenplay -- sounds cool. Have you thought out all the rules of the clean-infected world, how it works, why, backstories of how it got this way? Like, if a clean and infected person come into contact, why doesn't the clean person become infected? Reason being-- I think it is necessary to have some kind of structure, fairly clearly defined, for the characters to battle in, otherwise it becomes like Field of Dreams (a movie I did not like) in which the author, kind of like God, changes the rules midstream just so the characters can get something or solve some problem -- I'm talking about that ending scene in which the audiences miraculously drive out to a cornfield to watch baseball without much marketing or individual initiative. When there are rules, the characters can solve their problems, fight within the structure, and readers or audience can root for them, feel tension, enjoy it.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:16, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your screenplay is somewhat like Hindu caste society, with infecteds like untouchables? Is this right? If so do they have a samsara-type religion of birth-death-rebirth? Also, about the tournament -- who sets it up, runs it, why does winning the tournament matter. Reminds me a bit of Game of Thrones although I only half-watched this movie; if yours will be similar, it may have a good following since younger people these days seem to be into this kind of stuff. If the clean-infected world is like a master-slave world, then how are the clean people also debased by the relation? In other stuff I've worked on, it's tough having a hero with too much godly-power -- too little and the character is weak, too much and it's overkill, like Greeks in their tragedies with Hercules as a hero had to make him vulnerable (ie human) otherwise the audience could not identify. Anyway, sounds like an interesting project; if you get it to the point where you appreciate frank criticism (I have two modes: tough critic will work something over and I say what is real, positive or negative, or supporter in which I am a flag waver) let me know and I'll try to help. My email is on my user page if needed but right now I'm pretty busy with my other stuff.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One other thing. Have you thought about benefits for the audience? I think this is often overlooked -- basic motivations not just for the characters in the story, but how the story will satisfy the needs of the audience? I think it is important to understand how you will reach people this way. I'm kind of thinking that art (good art) tries to transform people, by understanding where they are now, then taking them to somewhere better -- a journey, an uplifting, an exploration, so the audience comes out stronger, smarter, more satisfied, more enlightened.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 12:16, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What you stated about copyrighting your screenplay -- the "a respectable film company" part -- is a good point. One of the screenwriting books that I have, I think Dave Trottier's The Screenwriter's Bible: A Complete Guide to Writing, Formatting, and Selling Your Script, makes a good point about paranoia with regard to producers/etc. stealing another person's script...and states that what such people are interested in is that person's writing ability more than the script. If they steal the script, and it's a great script, they are without that person's great writing ability that can make them more money; no valid producer, etc. wants that.

I'm still working on the clean-infected "rules." As to infection, no one knows why the virus infected certain people and not others. And because it's been two centuries since that virus broke out, the original ones who had it have died off; the ones who currently have it are born that way. I kind of liked Field of Dreams, by the way, though I was significantly young (a child, later a teenager) when I saw that movie. I need to watch it again, and see how I feel about it now. I'm not sure that I've watched it all the way through. I mostly just remember that catchphrase: "If you build it, he will come." And, hey, at least that film is critically-acclaimed.

I don't think that my screenplay is like Hindu caste society. As for who sets up the tournaments... Well, "the council"...which is made up of four clean and four infected members. The people (general society) put them in charge when the government and all other forms of law crumbled. The council is sort of mysterious. A white-haired elderly woman (who may or may not be part of the council) sets up the tournaments; she selects the best fighter from each group (with various clean and infected groups competing, respectively) after they battle before her. She's never physically there to watch them; the performances are broadcast to her via holographic imagery, and it's vice versa (via broadcast) when she names who has been selected. The tournaments are important because, like I stated, "The tournaments are a way to represent one's respective side and fight for it in the hopes that enough wins will ensure that side is victorious. For the infected, this means liberation. For the clean, this means they will have the right to exterminate all of the infected once the tournaments are finally over." The tournaments are an ongoing thing, have been going on for many years now (though not for two centuries). The hope is that once the tournaments are finally over and the scores are tallied, the war will finally be over: Either the infected will be liberated or they will be exterminated. One might ask: Can you really trust the system? And who is to state that the score has not been tampered with? This is why both sides keep diligent track of the scores. But then again, who is to state that the war will definitely be over, that the infected will simply roll over and let the clean kill all of their kind? All of this will be handled in the story. As for Game of Thrones, that's a television show. And I highly recommend that you watch every episode of it, get caught up on it before the fourth season premieres. It's a really good show, with excellent writing, superb acting and good-to-great special effects. It's listed on my user page as one of my favorite current shows.

As for the benefits for the audience, I have thought about that (always do with regard to writing a story) and I agree with you on it, except that I point out that not every good story will be uplifting. Still, when it comes to explanations, too much dialogue and/or backstory can hinder a story. The dialogue should generally move the story forward, and in as few words as possible. It's best to show, not tell. Flyer22 (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My sense is you've done your homework and know much about writing screenplays, so I wish you success. Agree about too much backstory hindering a story -- I think we'll agree that working out the backstory can be important, so you know it is there, what happened, and perhaps you can refer to parts of it, tangentially, if needed, since it might give your story more realism and depth. I think I was thinking about The Hunger Games not Game of Thrones -- sorry -- that is your script reminds me somewhat of the HG, with the idea of a tournament.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did Teaching Co courses on diseases, illnesses etc, thing about viruses is like a miniature animal piggybacking on a host. Viruses want to spread themselves; usually they'll attack a human for a few days and there is a cycle, with different stages, the last one being some way to get the host to expel new germs (coughing, sneezing, itching) so the process can be repeated in a new victim/host. Viruses which overpower a host (kill the human) die too, so generally they don't want to do that, but rather live off the host for a while. Meanwhile, the host figures out (usually) how to get rid of the virus. So a virus which permanently infects humans, generation after generation, marking their status substantially -- like making the human permanently be identifiable as an "infected" -- maybe an explanation is needed. When a human becomes infected with a virus, usually (according to the Teaching Co course) there's redness, swelling, temperature -- how the body fights the infection. So if people are infected in your world, maybe the condition reverts to something chronic -- maybe more like acne or AIDS or herpes -- something that sticks around somehow, that is noticeable (so the "cleans" can identify the "infecteds"). If the cleans and infecteds intermix, like on the Council, what will keep the cleans from becoming infected? What is the ultimate source of their animosity towards each other? No doubt you've been thinking about these things. If they agree to a tournament, then the animosity is somewhat regulated by the rules (since they both agree to the tournament approach), so it is not a fever-pitch anger between the two groups but rather a controlled dislike? That is why I was thinking along the lines of a caste system.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my sci-fi book I've tried to think through much of this stuff but I doubt I've been as thorough as some major sci-fi writers; rather, I'm trying to keep it rather simple, for thematic clarity, not sure if it will work as I hope.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 21:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I made tweaks to my "20:09, 18 January 2014 (UTC)" comment a few seconds (though it's time stamped as a minute) before you posted. I thought about the tournaments with regard to The Hunger Games (film) as well, mostly because I've recently watched both The Hunger Games films for the first time (both late last year, not far apart from each other), those are the latest tournament-fight films (ones that reach a wide audience anyway) that have been released, and I'm involved in editing the Wikipedia articles for those films. I like both films. As for the virus, you mentioned AIDS. AIDS "infects humans, generation after generation, marking their status substantially -- like making the human permanently be identifiable as an 'infected.'" Main difference there is that the virus in my story can only be spread through birth. If that's illogical... Well, this is science-fiction, after all, LOL. As to how the infected are identified, a green birth mark identifies the vast majority of the infected; the others, such as the main character, have no birth mark that can identify them as such. Again, no one knows why it's like that. Or more precisely, I don't know why it's like that. No room to explain all of that either, unless I want to cut out some other things or extend the length of my screenplay. Studios these days err on the side of "the shorter the screenplay, the better." That stated, I'm aiming for the screenplay to be at least 120 pages long, which is normal length and which should equal 120 minutes of viewing time. As for the ultimate source of the animosity between the clean and the infected, that is fear/envy and hatred. People fear or even envy what they don't understand. Sometimes they simply hate what they don't understand. We have seen this throughout history, such as with slavery. And people don't like to be oppressed and will usually hate the ones who have oppressed them. All of that is the source of the animosity between the clean and the infected. All of that will be shown in the screenplay. Flyer22 (talk) 22:29, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, good luck Flyer22!--Tomwsulcer (talk) 16:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Man of Steel (film)

Right. It was the change to the release date (the previous edit) that was unsourced. Rather than revert or remove altogether, I tagged to indicate the change needed to be supported by a citation. Dwpaul ^Talk 02:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And the unsourced change has now been reintroduced ... Dwpaul ^Talk 02:38, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And now a source has been added. All good. Dwpaul ^Talk 02:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Benny Morris

Please explain why the sourced addition is not construcitve. It is not vandalism to add text that has an RS It is extremely relevant to BM vies and statements.81.159.118.159 (talk) 22:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. Fixed and tweaked. Flyer22 (talk) 22:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Breast article: Even though I agree with you

that in common English usage breasts refer to those of women, the lead of the article says "[b]oth men and women develop breasts from the same embryological tissues." So, we should look for sources that also comment on how the mammary region of males is erogenous too, or change the lead? The way it is now is rather prone to misconstruction and/or incomplete. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 17:56, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Srtª PiriLimPomPom. You are referring to this revert I made. I saw some validity in one aspect you changed, which is why I restored this (followed by a minor tweak). I stated here on NeilN's talk page that you were likely going to revert; nice to see that I was wrong about that. Like I told NeilN, one of my other reasons for reverting you is because "the source about orgasm from nipple stimulation only claims that some women can orgasm that way (the orgasms are still genital orgasms, regardless); it mentions that a few men have similar response with regard to how the brain reacts to breast stimulation, but it doesn't state that those men achieved an orgasm from such stimulation." Either way, this is best discussed on the article talk page, so that other editors, those in general, can weigh in on this topic.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with "Breast article:" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 18:15, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As for changing the lead, it should not be changed so that it excludes mention of males; males do have breasts, unless one characterizes a breast in the strict sense (mammary gland), and the article is not solely about female breasts. The point is that your change was odd because males are not usually regarded as having breasts, and your change was largely unsupported with regard to the sources in that section of the article. Flyer22 (talk) 18:21, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Before we transfer this discussion to the article's talk page, I want to say that I'm entirely ok about omitting the orgasm part because I don't have sources for that (only the knowledge that the connection with genitals is present in males too, and some anecdotal evidence - that doesn't count here, I know - that it is possible for a male to orgasm through it, and not at all rare to orgasm through strong mixed stimulation of nipples and anus), but I still find the section on their, uh, sexiness, a bit of a double standard. The design of the male chests around the nipple area can be aesthetically pleasing and a fetish too, some males of a mostly queer* audience are interested in heightening these aspects, and not only males appreciate women's breasts. Combined with this and the impression that section gave that only female nipples are erogenous, the impression that section gave me was that there was an unawareness of the fact that male bodies can be appreciated in an about equal manner (well, yeah, to the exception of an enormously different hormonal balance needed, healthy males can even breastfeed) and of the existence of homosexuality. If we can get sources for that (and I'm pretty sure it is nowhere near hard, no pun intended), I don't see many reasons to comment over it. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 20:31, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, this should be discussed at the Breast article talk page. Some aspects that you are arguing for are aspects that I have not seen covered in WP:Reliable sources (either not at all or not usually), such as "healthy males can even breastfeed"...as in a human male using his chest to feed another person milk. Are you not taking the mammary gland into account? Look at the Breastfeeding article, and you will see that it only focuses on females being able to breastfeed; the reason why is obvious to me. If you are referring to male lactation, see what this section of the Lactation article states and what the Male lactation article states. The place to work out this type of thing is the article talk page, where others may be able to assist you with WP:Reliable sources. While I have knowledge of and access to an abundance of anatomy and/or sexual scholarly works, the breast matter is not something I am focusing on at the moment. Flyer22 (talk) 20:50, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing disruption by User:John on biography articles

Aloha. Did you ever file the RFC on John?[2] I ask because John is now disrupting John Barrowman with the same, unilateral interpretations of what is and what is not tabloid journalism and of course, he's refusing to discuss it. [3] He's gone so far as to remove celebrity interviews of notable subjects while deleting content that is already sourced in the article. It's hard to tell if he is simply incompetent and/or disruptive, but he just removed a huge swath of sourced content simply because a vandal removed the source. I asked him to look at the last good version to compare it and he refused. He also edit warred and threatened to use his admin tools while falsely claiming there was a BLP issue. If you did not file the RFC, then I am ready to co-sign and file an AN report. If you did file the RFC, please provide a link. Viriditas (talk) 03:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only way you're going to get John to stop is by holding a community-wide RFC on what circumstances those sources (Mail, Mirror, Sun, etc) can be used. That was my experience. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but this does seem to go beyond that, at least on Barrowman. First, he claimed there was a BLP violation. There wasn't, and reliable sources already in the article supported the content, so I reverted his deletions and asked him to come to the talk page per BRD. He didn't discuss, but went straight into edit warring, followed by a threat to block me on my talk page over a non-existent BLP violation. Just to get him to the article talk page, I had to confront him on his user talk page, at which point he made a number of unsubstantiated claims. When asked to explain further, he was either unable to do so or incapable of doing so. Then, he began removing more content simply because a vandal had removed a citation. I asked him to look at the last good GA version to see the sources and he refused. How can someone like this be an admin? I don't think an RFC on the sources alone will either solve or address the problem. John doesn't seem competent to edit Wikipedia. Viriditas (talk) 03:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The issue you face is that past Wikipedia discussions have held sources like the Mail and Mirror as unreliable so someone can rip them out without considering any of the nuances and other editors won't get too fussed. May not be what you want to hear, but that's how it is in my view. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not talking about the Mail, I'm talking about admin John's bad behavior. However, if you want to discuss the Mail in this example, the fact of the matter is that it was a celebrity interview by Jenny Johnston who has received commendations for her interviews. There is no question whatsoever this is a reliable source, but that is not the primary issue. John is making a series of bad edits, bad allegations, and bad actions all around. The fact of the matter is The Daily Mail has won awards for its journalism.[4] There is absolutely no consensus on RS/N to remove sources like this. I know this because I have followed those discussions about the DM (there and in other talk pages) since 2004, and I have been one of its leading critics. This is a unilateral POV campaign being run by User:John based on absolutely no interpretation of any existing policy or guideline. He's either totally incompetent, purposefully disruptive, or a combination of the two. We've repeatedly seen, over and over again, how one editor will wage an obsessive campaign against a certain source, a style guideline, the use of grammar and or typography, or some other pet issue. And, we've seen how editors that do this get shot down time and time again because they are acting tendentiously. That's what's happening here, but John is getting away with it because of his admin status. There's no editor without admin rights that would be allowed to act like this. Viriditas (talk) 04:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "only warning" on your talk page was completely uncalled for. From past discussions, it should be clear to him the community does not agree with some of his views on BLP sources and he should take that into account when dealing with experienced editors. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:16, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For me, the biggest issue is that after he was reverted, he should have taken to the talk page to discuss his concerns. At that point, I would have patiently explained and addressed his concerns for as long as it took until we were both satisfied. But that's not what happened. He edit warred, warned me, and then instead of engaging in discussion, made a "my way or the highway" comment on the talk page and failed to discuss the problems. That's what upsets me. Viriditas (talk) 04:22, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

John can be quite frustrating with regard to his view of enforcing WP:BLP; see User talk:Flyer22/Archive 13#User: John for just how much more frustrated I became. Or this matter at the Brad Pitt talk page; that was after the community had decided that People magazine is generally fine to use for biographical content with regard to living people, though I feel that JethroBT didn't close the discussion on that matter as accurately as it should have been closed.

Like I noted before, John does not seem to differentiate between tabloid (newspaper format) and tabloid journalism. Or that, like the lead of the Tabloid (newspaper format) article currently states, that format "is used in the United Kingdom by nearly all local newspapers."

My WP:ANI report on John is not the only WP:ANI report on his sourcing rationale; he acted ridiculously by giving you a "This is your only warning" threat, the same threat he gave me in a similar circumstance and was deservedly chastised for. I'm not sure what you can do to stop him on his sourcing grudges. He has a good chance of getting away with it if reported at WP:ANI again, due to those who agree with him and/or those who are biased with regard to his administrative status. There also is not much support at the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard for use of the Daily Mail, but it clearly should not be removed in the case of exclusive interviews. Flyer22 (talk) 04:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And, no, I never filed a WP:RfC/U on John. Flyer22 (talk) 04:42, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. Am I correct to assume that like NeilN, you prefer a community RFC over a user RFC? Viriditas (talk) 04:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No preference on that matter. But I do think it's past time that a WP:RfC/U is started on him for these sourcing grudges of his. Flyer22 (talk) 04:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Flyer, thanks for your feedback. If it's helpful, I agree with NeilN's suggestions here that would have been useful to clarify in my close-- I'm sorry that this causing more trouble. In my defense, I tried to stick to the language used by many editors in that RfC, and they variously stated that "contentious" material should not be sourced to People (or at least, not alone). To speak to your example, I would say that unless there are discrepancies between it and other reliable sources, something like a celebrity's birthday or their family members could be reasonably sourced to People. I agree that sometimes editors will call something contentious, but there should be a demonstrable reason why that is so (which it may well be in specific cases). Calling it a "gossip magazine" or saying that birth dates are simply iffy in People alone just aren't going to cut it, for instance. John's arguments were not persuasive during the RfC and they shouldn't be elsewhere if that is the basis for disagreement. I, JethroBT ^{drop me a line} 07:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Willing to help or suggest someone?

I undid an edit on Association of Women for Action and Research by Owlterego (talk · contribs). Given the subject matter, I feel awkward giving advice. Cheers Jim1138 (talk)

You handled it well. I'm not sure what to state to that person either, or who to suggest to give advice in our places. Flyer22 (talk) 06:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 320: / Line 320: @@
 :::::::::No preference on that matter. But I do think it's past time that a WP:RfC/U is started on him for these sourcing grudges of his. [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22#top|talk]]) 04:54, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
+::::::::Hi Flyer, thanks for your feedback.  If it's helpful, I agree with {{u|NeilN}}'s suggestions [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:NeilN&diff=592488149&oldid=592487937#People_magazine_discussion_close_at_the_WP:Reliable_sources_noticeboard here] that would have been useful to clarify in my close-- I'm sorry that this causing more trouble.  In my defense, I tried to stick to the language used by many editors in that RfC, and they variously stated that "contentious" material should not be sourced to ''People'' (or at least, not alone).  To speak to your example, I would say that unless there are discrepancies between it and other reliable sources, something like a celebrity's birthday or their family members could be reasonably sourced to ''People''.  I agree that sometimes editors will call something contentious, but there should be a demonstrable reason why that is so (which it may well be in specific cases).  Calling it a "gossip magazine" or saying that birth dates are simply iffy in ''People'' alone just aren't going to cut it, for instance.  John's arguments were not persuasive during the RfC and they shouldn't be elsewhere if that is the basis for disagreement. [[User:I JethroBT|<font color="green" face="Candara"><b>I, JethroBT</b></font>]][[User talk:I JethroBT| <sup>drop me a line</sup>]] 07:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 ==Willing to help or suggest someone?==