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• Ian Sample (2017-02-23). "Study reveals bot-on-bot editing wars raging on Wikipedia's pages". The Guardian.

-- GreenC 01:46, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some "research". All old news, and they didn't even mention bots warring with themselves, which is much more fun. All they had to do was come here and ask, and someone would have pointed them to this page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:09, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bot warring is not "news". They looked beyond anecdotal stories like the Lamest list, and did data analysis and statistics with every edit by every bot (within a sample article group) and reported what the results actually are - something that beforehand was unknown. They also did it across wiki languages to see what patterns arose (Germany had the least problems for example). They did it not to inform Wikipedia of its bot problems, but to show how automated bots in a complex system can create unintended consequences with an eye on things like self-driving cars and other types of networks where many well-intentioned and vetted bots can create havoc unintentionally. For the purpose of Wikipedia and policy, I think the results show how widespread the problem really is - it's systemic, subtle, not a random lulz list of a dozen incidents - and maybe think about what we can do about it. I know my bot WaybackMedic over 75% of its edits are fixing problems created by other bots and tools. There doesn't seem to be much inter-bot coordination other than what bot operators do on their own. -- GreenC 15:22, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. The Guardian article seems fairly useless as far as any real coverage of bots on Wikipedia. Tracking down the actual paper reveals that the majority of the reverts they found came from interwiki bots and they analyzed data from 2001–2010, i.e. it's already rather dated. Anomie⚔ 14:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why any of those facts makes the study useless for real coverage of bots on Wikipedia. Has something changed since 2001-1010? Are interwiki bots not bots? My bot is not interwiki, it's 2017, and the majority of its fixes are other bots and tools. I have no recourse other than appeal to the bot/tool owners to coordinate and sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. The wars continue. -- GreenC 15:32, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unless there is a bov v bot revert cycle going on, this isn't really much of a war. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:06, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The traditional sense of a revert cycle is a curious though rare phenomenon, and generally easy to fix once made known. The bigger issue of well meaning bots with slightly different rules that lead to unintended consequences; and bots which spend much of their time changing edits made by other bots for lack of common rules and coordination. -- GreenC 16:18, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Err, yes, a lot has changed since 2001–1010. Wikidata completely eliminating interwiki link bots, for one thing. Anomie⚔ 16:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It was a problem with the interwiki scripts back in 2010. Now it's resolved. Wikidata improved this situation. I don't there are any bot wars anymore. A thing that we have is one bot improving other bots edit. We have a phenomenon of multiple bots visiting the same page one after the other. -- Magioladitis (talk) 16:11, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If each edit is incrementally making the page better, then everyone wins. If a bot edit makes the page worse, and another bot has to clean it up - that is undesirable - and we should discuss shutting stopping the first task. These are very case by case and are always open for re-review. An important caveats that often gets overlooked: we should never depend that any bot will make a future edit; so if one bots makes a page better than it was before their edit it will generally be justified. — xaosflux ^Talk 16:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Should_bots_perform_secondary_.22cosmetic.22_tasks_while_making_a_primary_task.3F. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:48, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing in the RFC as posed that would "add general fixes to existing bots". Each bot would still need to be approved for all of its tasks, including general fixes. The RFC seems to be on the broader point of whether such approval is acceptable, which of course it is in some situations. — Carl (CBM · talk) 12:32, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's a motion that community encourages bot owners to add general fixes in their bot tasks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 12:34, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The current policy of WP:COSMETICBOT, while relatively clear in its intent, is currently fairly vague in practice, and short on examples. Several of us (both BAG and non-BAG members) have drafted User:Anomie/Sandbox2 (talk, see also a prior discussion) to 1) the motivation for this policy 2) clarify what the terms cosmetic, substantial/non-cosmetic, and minor edit typically refer to, 3) to clarify under what conditions bots may or may not make such changes 4) how to deal with undesired cosmetic edits.

This RFC is to see if the proposed update/wording has consensus. Refinements can be made during the RFC if issues are found with it. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 11:46, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Current vs proposed versions

Current

Cosmetic changes (such as many of the AWB general fixes) should be applied only when there is a substantive change to make at the same time.

Scripts that apply cosmetic changes, such as cosmetic_changes.py, should be used with caution. The pywiki functions standardizeCategories, validXhtml, translateAndCapitalizeNamespaces, removeNonBreakingSpaceBeforePercent, or equivalent functionality, should not be used (as of May 2009), as they do not function correctly or there is no consensus for such changes. The functions removeUselessSpaces and cleanUpSectionHeaders are also not recommended, as they mainly move around whitespace.

Proposed

The draft that was here for some time has been incorporated into policy in Special:Diff/781024503/prev. I'll eventually repurpose this sandbox for other tests. Thanks, everyone.

Discussion

The overall clarification is good. The final paragraph, however, goes too far. What we have seen in several cases of abuse - with Betacommand, as one example, and more recently with others - was an attempt to gain a first-mover advantage by making cosmetic edits on their own on a large scale, based on the opinion of the bot operator rather than on any site-wide consensus. This is related to WP:FAITACCOMPLI. The best way to handle these is to restore the status quo from before the inappropriate bot edits. While there are some cosmetic edits that do objectively improve the article, others only change from one optional style to another. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:06, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I also believe that the final paragraph should, at a minimum, not be given the same weight as the rest of the text. If adopted, this new text could be used to clarify WP:AWBRULES, #4. I support the rest of the changes. (Full disclosure: I have applied minor copy edits to the proposal to change "substantial" to "substantive" per the original text and the meaning of English words.) – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This last paragraph is specifically to prevent/minimize knee-jerk reverts like [1]. If the changes would otherwise have been fine (e.g. as part of a non-cosmetic change), then there is by definition no reason to revert the edit. It is not because no substantive changes have been done in an edit that the previous version was better, especially if those changes would eventually be done as part of a substantive edit. These reverts are utterly pointless, and clutter edit histories just as much as the original edits. This is in contrast to reverting a cosmetic change because neither version are considered preferable, and both version are on equal footing.

For example, changing {{WP Astronomy}} to {{WikiProject Astronomy}} shouldn't be done on its own. But if a bot did that by mistake/malfunction, there's no reason to revert this. However, if a bot changed {{citation |last=Smith |first=John |...}} to {{citation |first=John |last=Smith |...}}, breaking an already established convention, or trying to create a convention no one supports (e.g. WP:FAITACCOMPLI), then there is a reason to revert. That's the distinction drawn in that last paragraph. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 14:40, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Refining my objection: I can live with bits about reverting, but the first sentence really serves as a restatement of, or addendum to, MEATBOT. If you want to refine MEATBOT, do it in that section, not in a section ostensibly describing cosmetic edits. I recommend removal of this sentence: "While this policy applies only to bots, human editors may also wish to follow this guidance for the reasons given here, especially if making such changes on large scales." Incorporating that sentiment, in some form, into MEATBOT might make sense. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:41, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I could live with putting that first sentence in WP:MEATBOT. However it makes more sense to me here, given that this is more or less where the only guidance on cosmetic edits exist on Wikipedia is. Having it here also makes it clear that the policy applies to bots only, unless there are issues of WP:MEATBOT. Thoughts? Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:50, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Re Headbomb: The problematic bot operators who cause problems are not making these edits "accidentally" - they intentionally allow the bot to make them because of a personal desire to see their preferences implemented site-wide. In some cases they go out of their way to make the cosmetic edits in a misguided attempt to "clean" pages or "check" the wiki. Your proposal gives these operators a first-mover advantage, which is inappropriate. In general there is no reason to remove "Template:" or to change "WP Astronomy" to "WikiProject Astronomy". These are just personal preferences of a relatively small number of bot operators, and do not need to be changed even if another edit is made. We tolerate the change, to some extent, if a more significant change is made, but that does not mean the change is actually an improvement. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see you were right, Headbomb. True, there's no reason to remove "Template:" or to change "WP Astronomy" to "WikiProject Astronomy". The point you're missing is that there's even less point to knee-jerk revert the edit. Stop/block the (meat)bot, take it to WP:ANI or other appropriate forum, and it can be reverted if consensus there determines that reverts should be done. Anomie⚔ 16:07, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That doesn't really deal with the first-mover advantage, though. It also doesn't deal well with issues like this IP editor. For an IP address which is making MEATBOT COSMETICBOT edits, the right solution is the same as handling vandalism: if they know their edits won't stick, they have less reason to make them. I'll also point out that for some problematic bot editors - such as one who was recently the subject of an arbcom decision - it can be clear from experience that discussion is unlikely to be fruitful. I think it is likely that the collection of bot operators and MEATBOT operators I have in mind, and the collection you have in mind, may not be the same. The policy needs to cover all of them. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:35, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If discussion doesn't help, then blocking would be the next step. That's why blocking exists after all, stopping editors who don't listen to requests and warnings. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:46, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First mover advantage on invoking templates with {{TemplateName}} instead of {{Template:TemplateName}}? I'm afraid you're looking at 10+ years of a pretty standard convention. As of the last dump, this was done on a total of 17 articles (and those were mostly in comments telling people were to look for the documentation of a template), out of 5.3 million articles (or 0.00032% of all articles). If you dispute that CW Error #01 is contentious, take it to WP:CHECKWIKI. But to revert simply because nothing else was done to "prevent" an already achieved WP:FAITACCOMPLI on a matter everyone agrees is best practice is a waste of everyone's time. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:19, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that one is relatively well established. However, experience shows that very often, once one problem is "fixed", another problem is invented to take its place. Reference re-ordering was an example of one of these non-rules that someone made up - it took years to get that removed from AWB, despite it never having consensus in any guideline or style guide. Occasionally I have to remind editors that HTML entities are perfectly acceptable. I have seen bot operators intentionally orphan a template via cosmetic edits, then claim the template is unused and should be deleted. It's these new issues where being aware of the the first mover advantage is particularly important. There are many "minority" styles that are perfectly acceptable. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:28, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then use a scalpel, not a hammer. "... despite it never having consensus in any guideline or style guide". That is covered by the "if" clause in the last paragraph. If the edit shouldn't have been made as part of a substantive edit, there is a reason to revert. If the edit would have been fine as part of a substantive edit, there is no reason to revert.Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:02, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if we want to encourage the pounding of the revert button over cosmetic edits. Maybe talk first revert later if ever is a better tactic. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:20, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The goal should be prevent cosmetic edits in the first place, of course. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:32, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mostly a personal feeling, the bickering over them is more harmful than the cosmetic edits themselves. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 13:57, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'm in agreement with Carl on this one. We have an ongoing problem with a small minority of bot operators, as the recent arb-case has demonstrated. Non bot-operators can't apply BRD to large scale changes carried out by these editors, for the obvious practical reasons. As has been demonstrated in recent months, their response to challenge has simply been to say "I've made the change, against policy, put up with it". Routinely reverting such changes would certainly remove the "first-mover" advantage, dis-encouraging their behaviour, and it would reduce tensions with non-bot operators, who would see BRD being applied. I take Jo-Jo's comment on blocking being a good option, but as the recent arb-case shows, this simply doesn't work/happen in practice. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hchc2009: say a bot made, because of a malfunction, 20 of these edits [2] or even 1000 of these edits [3] before it got blocked. What is gained by reverting? Especially since those have consensus to be been done as part of substantive edits? The Magioliditis/Yobot situation was caused by a big case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, not because people weren't allowed to revert (or not revert) his bot's pointless edit. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:10, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For me, the problem with that argument is that normal editors can't revert the likes of Magioliditis, as they don't have bots with which do so. For what it's worth, I think that if editors operating bots were held responsible for fixing the malfunctioning behaviour of their bots - including the potential 1,000 article mistake example you've given here - they might be more motivated to prevent their bots malfunctioning in the first place... Hchc2009 (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone has the ability to revert anyone. The question the paragraph attempts to address is should you? If a bot has been favouring one cosmetic style over another equally valid cosmetic style ({{citation |last=Smith |first=John |...}} to {{citation |first=John |last=Smith |...}}), then clearly reverts are warranted. But if a bot cleaned up

[[Category:Animals]][[Category:Cats]][[Category:Pets]]

to

[[Category:Animals]]
[[Category:Cats]]
[[Category:Pets]]

There really is no reason to revert just because this was a cosmetic edit. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 18:30, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand the distinction you are making, you are suggesting that changing from one valid cosmetic style to another such as the order of parameters in a template can be reverted, but changing {{WP Astronomy}} to {{WikiProject Astronomy}} shouldn't, nor adding spaces between categorization links, because while both styles are also permissible, the second is preferred to the first? If this is your intent, the proposed text should clarify this; as it stands, removing the spaces between category links or changing to {{WP Astronomy}} would also be considered cosmetic edits that shouldn't be reverted. To be honest, though, if the desire to avoid a cosmetic revert on top of the original cosmetic change is considered higher priority than combating fait accompli editing, I'm not clear on why the first scenario of reverting from one equally valid style to another should be considered OK. isaacl (talk) 06:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support new version, as one of the drafters of the above text, for the record. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:13, 26 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• This is a major improvement, but I still disagree with the invalid HTML example. The example has been repeatedly controversial, and the term "invalid HTML tag" is not well-defined. See, for instance, this AN thread. I'd wholeheartedly support this if that example was struck. That isn't to say it always isn't a substantive change, but I don't think it is a substantive change so obvious that it should be enshrined in policy, especially when some tags can be "minorly invalid" without being "egregiously" so. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 07:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]