The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 2019–20 coronavirus outbreak (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sleath56 (talk · contribs)
• FobTown (talk · contribs)
• Feminist (talk · contribs)
• Akira CA (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Stonewalled discussion on Talk between two editors on how to further proceed sections. Editors for reasons provided and unprovided revising section flow to preferred state only to be reversed by the other to their own preferred state. Previous appeal on DRR3 have gone unaddressed. Citation of policy concerns by sides are largely unaddressed and any compromises seem give and take to both sides.

Interactions appear to devolve to personal-derived revisions of the others edits throughout the page, by both sides, with no relevant edit summary explanations provided for why, as this is heading close to 3RR, dispute resolution is requested.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[1]

Previous discussions, for thankfully largely resolved issues, but may provide context to current Talk discussion at:

[2]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Previous entry on DRR3 unsuccessful, aim is towards providing a 3O to a stonewalled discussion. Provide guidance on resolution and offer suggestions on how to proceed further discussions on Talk with the goals of constructive and productive outcomes.

Summary of dispute by FobTown[edit]

Have tried to move towards a middle ground as Sleath56 wanted to get rid of quotes from Steve Tsang. However, Sleath56 took it further by removing my section on positive coverage from #Censorship and Police Response despite it being well cited by the Financial Times and other sources. It seems that Sleath56 is quite rigid with the section headers, as they insisted on keeping the original header for #Censorship and Police Response, which in turn allows them to restrict what goes in that section. Similar case with #WHO Response which they maintain is only for official quotes and not opposing viewpoints. FobTown (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[3]

In the latest Talk Sleath56 misrepresented another editor and used that to claim consensus for "no duplication" in the article. FobTown (talk) 22:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)[4] @Hzh:: The point is that duplicating the information unnecessarily bloats the article. You have two places where similar information on Li Wenliang are given (and that is after other mentions had already been removed), therefore try to merge the two, then you only need to mention Li Wenliang again without repeating the information. You should also try and see if what Steve Tsang said can also be merged (he isn't important enough to warrant repeating). Sleath56 (talk) 20:12, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Sleath56[edit]

The issue in my view seems to be a matter of WP:SYNTHESIS not being held to task and simply not understanding the statements of other editors with regards to duplicative entries. Another editor suggested the lack of relevance of one individual's opinion that was being added through using their opinion to framework the whole section under was tediously contested on the grounds that "they didn't really say that" despite the language being explicit and unambiguous. Sleath56 (talk) 18:43, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

From my explanation on the article Talk page: My version of the #Censorship section, you can see that I've principally highlighted direct and notable actions such as the Li Wenliang censorships and the specific government censorship tactics that have been declared. The point throughout has been to organize it with a mind towards WP:SUMMARY. To explain, the concerns I have with in enforcing the exclusion of the Tsang passage isn't because suddenly receiving 3O means your view is irrelevant, but because I consistently felt structuring the section through his personal government theory is unnecessary, especially when the various RS argue the same. The problems with the specific hospital entry I've held is that it is a minor incident, could be construed to be more of a mistake by the RS you've cited since the hospitals were already build fast by the same RS, and is an unnecessary detail to further the idea of the government's desire for positive coverage when the CAC entry explicitly states the government's demand against "negative stories".

The point of the #WHO response section is to keep a concise area for readers to see the official WHO responses to the outbreak as it doesn't have a place anywhere else. The section should indeed be expanded, but that should be through the inclusion of more recent WHO statements. Mackenzie is the only entry of relevancy as he is a WHO official, but when it's stated that he cited his opinions in an unofficial capacity and when the RS call him the "lone voice."

2019–20 Wuhan coronavirus outbreak discussion[edit]

First statement by moderator[edit]

I will try to resolve any content disputes over this virus, whether about the template or about the article. Please read DRN Rule A. Do not edit the article while discussion is in progress. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion at this noticeboard, except in a section that I provide for the purpose. (If back-and-forth discussion were going to work, it might have worked on the article talk page.) Address your statements to me and to the community. (I represent the community.) Be civil and concise. Overly long statements may be collapsed, and uncivil statements will be collapsed with a warning (but it appears that everyone has been civil). I do not claim to be an expert on the topic. I expect the editors to provide any information that I need to understand the content dispute. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, not to discuss the editors, so comment on content, not contributors. (Added note: The paragraphs that I hid were a complaint about an editor. In this forum, we avoid saying who we disagree with, because it is enough to say what in the article we disagree about.)

Now: Will each editor please summarize, in one paragraph, what they think the content issues are? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:36, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

First statements by editors[edit]

While there are conduct concerns I hold such as the refusal to stand by WP:DRNA despite reminders given, I nonetheless view this dispute as entirely solvable through a mediated discussion of content and will aim in spirit to focus my points of order through concerns of content disagreements.

The points of contention I hold in this content dispute is through interpretation of WP:NOR and WP:NPOV, alongside the philosophy of my editorial stance which have been provided above in the opening statements. This has been a relevant concern through the lack of clarification in attempted discussion of guidelines why the intended edits are appropriate in those regard. It is difficult to frame the content dispute concisely in this matter because points of order which have been already addressed and seemingly cleared are resurrected without notice or explanation through their merit under editorial guidelines.

Overall, there is fundamentally a disagreement in the merit of WP:PROPORTION and WP:DUE in the addition of entries. It’s my view they should be abided and attempts to argue those grounds under guideline discussions have gone not rebutted but unresponded under policy frameworks. Sleath56 (talk) 09:51, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

General complaint aside from content-specific

Content has been entirely removed on the claim of duplication (even though it was only barely mentioned in other section), the quoted expert is an irrelevant nobody, or not suited to that particular section. I've worked to address such concerns, for instance positive coverage can be better explained in #Censorship, propoganda, and police response rather than #Criticism of local response. In #WHO response, while I've expanded beyond the original source of Mackenzie with other viewpoints, that entire paragraph still gets removed because the added experts are also irrelevant. NPOV concerns should be addressed within the section rather than burying, as by burying that means that other editors/readers won't have a hint that it ever existed unless they check page history.

Steve Tsang is no longer the "lead", as there are also plenty of other sources that agree with his view. That being said he still has the best way of summing it up, so that is why numerous sources have quoted him. "As part of the central government's "bifurcated approach to diffuse discontent", while the propaganda machinery was going into "overdrive...to protect [Xi Jinping's] reputation", citizens were permitted to criticize local officials so long as they did not "question the basic legitimacy of the party”. The National Post puts it in the following manner of "Communist Party circling protective wagons around Xi Jinping", which is less explicit than ' propaganda machinery was going into "overdrive...to protect [Xi Jinping's] reputation"'.

Fine to have the CAC quote against negative articles, followed by the actual examples of blocking of articles and directives to new outlets, and the effect was social media users initially evading censors using "Trump" or "Chernobyl" as well as an outpouring of calls for freedom of speech after Li Wenliang's death. By that precedent Xi Jinping was quoted on emphasis on stories fighting the epidemic (positive coverage) and I've included actual examples; not only making a big deal of hospital construction but also the Wuhan lockdown and the provincial quarantine, particularly with the FT noting that such selective coverage was effective enough to fool observers domestic and international. Due to a quote from an official stating that propaganda about the epidemic response will be high priority, I'm keen to expand the title to #Censorship, propaganda, and police response (there is so many examples of censorship and propaganda that no other title fits the bill). And nowhere else in the article does it mention any examples of positive coverage.

I expanded the WHO section so it is not only Mackenzie's view and the UN diplomat's quote there, there are several sources who have noted criticism/justification for the WHO approach. And there is the petition calling on WHO director's resignation. I am also expanding it to note Taiwan's exclusion/inclusion as per the One China Policy.[9][10] Should there be a separate section called #Criticism of WHO handling since it doesn't fit in #Criticism of local response? FobTown (talk) 22:20, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion[edit]

@Robert McClenon: Are we supposed to wait for your go-ahead to conduct discussion or are we able to respond directly to each other? Sleath56 (talk) 22:51, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator[edit]

User:Sleath56 and anyone else: You may say anything that you want in the back-and-forth discussion. I will ignore it unless it is uncivil, in which case I will caution the editor and may collapse it. Go ahead. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:55, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

The statements above are long, and some of them refer to other editors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, which should be discussed without identifying who you disagree with. We can focus on what you want to put in the article. Each editor is asked to provide a one-paragraph statement of what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change. If there are multiple changes, either mention each one in one sentence, or wait until a later round. We can continue this discussion as long as we need to, so do not worry about getting everything identified now. But be concise, and comment only on content. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:55, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Second statements by editors[edit]

First Comments[edit]

@Robert McClenon: Appreciate the mediation. I think I can perhaps say for both participants that we were hoping a 3O take on this dispute could be given at this point. Surprisingly for concerns to an article this prominent right now, there's been essentially no one else providing their perspective despite the visibly lengthy bilateral discussions we've held on the Talk page.

@FobTown: To summarize: Tsang is not WP:DUE to be kept in that section, especially when other editors have commented to that point, nor does it make sense when that section is documenting government actions, yet there's some professor's hot take in the middle, especially when cutting his entry doesn't even remove the substance of what is being said. I'm not sure what the issue is with the section flow when it keeps being reshuffled with no explanation, I've maintained it for chronological flow especially as this is an ongoing event.

For the WHO section, it's documenting official response and declarations. Stubbing criticism from individual actors is not WP:DUE and breaks the flow of the section. Criticism to the WHO fits in the main article for the WHO, where there is already a Controversies section, which I've already linked in a See Also temp for the section. See the Ebola article for a sense of what constitute WP:PROPORTION and WP:DUE to merit inclusion in the outbreak article. Also the importance of WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:SUMMARY that I've maintained should be considered when conducting edits. Sleath56 (talk) 16:36, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I've already reduced Steve Tsang's content, but his quotes and other quoted sources do play a purpose in eloquently summing up the whole section. The bigger problem is that you are cutting actual examples of positive coverage by the state media; who not only made a big deal of hospital construction but also the Wuhan lockdown and the provincial quarantine, particularly with the FT noting that such selective coverage was effective enough to fool observers domestic and international. Plus it is odd to have to go to the WHO page (which is more for an overview of the organization) to find criticism on the 2019-2020 coronavirus handling, furthermore omitting criticism from that section would mislead the readers that everything is "perfect"; furthermore there are also events mentioned too like Taiwan's almost-exclusion and the petition calling for Tedros to step down. FobTown (talk) 17:13, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Responses[edit]

• "I've already reduced Steve Tsang's content".

This is not true. The entry has merely been reordered to the end of a paragraph, and the additional quote on "bifurcation" starts another one. The issue is not reduction, it's that he warrants omission in entirety. Per "do play a purpose in eloquently summing up the whole section", this is argued according to which guideline? I've stated the concerns of WP:NPOV without response. The argument isn't on what's 'eloquent or not,' that's not how content on Wikipedia is determined. This is not an argument that holds WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:NEUTRALEDIT needs to be considered. This is absolutely a case of WP:UNDUE. If the argument is for its preservation, a direct participation into the discussion on following editorial guidelines as I've cited needs to be conducted here.

• "particularly with the FT noting that such selective coverage was effective enough to fool observers domestic and international"

Again, how is a conjecture by a single article claiming the entire media is 'fooled' considered due? There are a plethora of opinions on the lockdown, positive and negative, not that such is relevant in a discussion on censorship.

• "Plus it is odd to have to go to the WHO page (which is more for an overview of the organization) to find criticism on the 2019-2020 coronavirus handling, furthermore omitting criticism from that section would mislead the readers that everything is "perfect"

Please note WP:FALSEBALANCE. Just because extant criticism by individuals exists doesn't mean it warrants WP:PROPORTION of being included. Not that that's the problem here. The WHO page actually is the appropriate place for it, take a look at that page and you'll see there's an entire section dedicated to controversies. I've noticed there's no response to my advice to take a look at the Ebola section for due criticism. None of the examples merit.

• "furthermore there are also events mentioned too like Taiwan's almost-exclusion"

This already contains an entire section on the WHO article.

• " and the petition calling for Tedros to step down."

A 350k online petition is not notable or relevant. Something that comes from an association of medical professionals that call for the same would be.

Additionally, not sure what the problem with in having Xi Jinping's comment on censorship and forcing positive coverage start the paragraph instead of the Xianguo individual. Sleath56 (talk) 18:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Because positive coverage was cited by the Financial Times and other sources. We could even go into details too like patriotic music to the rapid hospital construction as well as using a fake image.

Steve Tsang is a widely quoted expert on China among international media, I don't understand why you hate him. Another source observed that the Communist Party is circling wagons around Xi Jinping. In general, he and others are observations by international media and experts which should accompany any official Beijing quotes.

In that case we should expand Ebola to include criticism too, rather than forcing reader to go to the WHO page.

NPOV concerns should be addressed within the section rather than burying/deleting. FobTown (talk) 21:50, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Third Statement by Moderator[edit]

Okay. It seems that no one wants to be concise, but everyone is civil. Rather than tell everyone to trim their statements, I will switch to Rule B and allow back-and-forth discussion. Carry on until I interrupt. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:23, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Continued discussion by editors[edit]

To quote the full entry: "The Financial Times noted that such widely publicised actions made a strong impression upon domestic and international observers that the "overbearing, centralized government" of China was particularly suited to dealing with the crisis, despite the fact that the lock down of Wuhan came too late to be effective as millions had left"

This is clearly an undue opinion and sensationalist at that. It's barely tangential to the censorship section, and it cites no evidence for the claims that the international media was fooled. It leaves readers with the false impression, as you'd put it, that there was no one in the media who thought otherwise. There is no consensus on the effect of the lockdowns and even if an opinion on them was warranted, a random FT journalist is not a WP:DUE source for the claim.

From an logic standpoint, the section doesn't need someone (and a mere professor at that) to narrate what's going on. The way the section is typed with his inclusion breaks WP:WIKIVOICE. Tsang is not the only expert on 'China.' Why would he alone merit inclusion here in a way that the section is structured by his arguments? The rest of the has been organized to stand independently while presenting the same accusative arguments in RS by individual analysts, except that one paragraph there.

Your response seems to mean you didn't view the Ebola link to see how the section there is structured. That page has criticism in it, but the criticism is based on their own admissions, review panels, and international experts directly related to the field. Let me put it plain: Just because there is criticism doesn't mean it warrants inclusion, (WP:BALASP:"For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news.") This is my point in that there are definite criticisms that are due as can be seen on the Ebola article and I would support those without reservation, but quotes of strong accusations presented without explanation from individual actors like adjunct professors and anonymous officials who can't even give out their identity to support the statements they've made are not WP:DUE in this matter nor WP:PROPORTION. As such, I don't see at all the argument that those sources shouldn't be in the main WHO article's controversy section, (which is directly header linked so I strongly question the opinion that it's 'buried' at all). As such, reactions statements must consider WP:NPOV, this as the page says is non-negotiable, and they must consider [[WP:RELIABILITY] with preference for their attribution with to hold evidence (as the criticism in the Ebola page shows examples of) and not just be opinion. Unless there is evidence based accusations, those hold concerns of WP:FRINGE as opinions and the problem with that is that if you include one side, you'd have to add proportional opposing views for WP:BALANCE and the whole thing turns into a massive section bloat contrary to WP:SUMMARY because of needing to satisfy WP:NPOV. Sleath56 (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm okay with your quotes from various Chinese gov't officials but by themselves isn't sufficient, indeed having just having official quotes bloats the article without adding anything new. We also need instances and those instances are reported by international major news organizations, plus these instances are observed/commented on by experts quoted by international major news organizations. I've structured the positive coverage so it flows right after Xi Xinping's directive and before the "As part of the central government's "bifurcated approach to diffuse discontent", while the propaganda machinery was going into "overdrive...to protect [Xi Jinping's] reputation".

Individual actors like adjunct professors and anonymous officials are not "nobodies". Each of them is a somebody, and they were quoted by a major news source which makes it significant enough for inclusion by themselves. But in this case we have several different individuals with similar viewpoints on that same issue so WP:FRINGE doesn't apply.

The WHO criticism section isn't just opposing viewpoints, it is also actual things that happened like delayed reporting to WHO, underestimated or downplayed cases, exclusion of Taiwan, delaying the announcement that it is a worldwide health emergency, etc. In fact, the WHO praise of China's handling drew criticism as "WHO was pandering to China’s dictatorship" and "China has been unwilling to agree to their experts’ request to conduct on-site visits".[11][12] FobTown (talk) 14:32, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Wow, the WHO section is generally much better now per your latest edit. I appreciate the considerations on mostly WP:DUE sources and overall revising per WP:WIKIVOICE and WP:BALANCE being plainly taken there. The only remaining issues there is the anonymous diplomat, who is not WP:DUE and the criticism of Tedros on the PHEIC which is not WP:PROPORTION (a mere 350k online petition is not WP:DUE and based on an inaccurate picture of how those are declared considering that it is the WHO committee that recommends to to the director-general whether to declare an emergency. https://www.statnews.com/2020/01/22/who-postpones-decision-on-whether-to-declare-china-outbreak-a-global-public-health-emergency/

I didn't say they were "nobodies," I said they were not WP:DUE. The precise point of WP:NPOV is to prevent individual voices from holding disproportionate prominence on Wikipedia. If the point they make is widely adopted, you could adopt WP:SUMMARY and state their arguments in WP:WIKIVOICE that "there's wide arguments for x". This is what I've done in revising the section there.

" I've structured the positive coverage so it flows right after Xi Xinping's directive and before" A reminder that this would be WP:SYNTHESIS, which is one aspect of concern that I've opposed the version presented since. Leaving the section in plain chronological flow is neutral editing, and prevents other editors from boosting up or burying paragraphs from occurring. As said this is also more productive for an ongoing event article where developing incidents can be easily documented if such a fashion is adopted. Sleath56 (talk) 16:14, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Okay, the WHO petition can be removed.

The unnamed UN diplomat's view has been widely adopted, so I backed it up with the CNN source, with the UN diplomat's quote summing the viewpoint up nicely.

Including instances of positive coverage, such as widely publicizing the hospital construction or Wuhan lockdown or province quarantine, does not violate WP:NPOV. I could work on merging the FT report and Steve Tsang, as they share a viewpoint. As such positive coverage instances have already happened and has been summarized, it isn't an impediment for any new developing incidents that can go at the bottom. FobTown (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Keep in mind that WP:DUE isn't based on how much one person's view is covered in RS. It's based on how much that view is shared by others who are also covered in RS. If there are similar and significant voices who present the same view, which is the only way this UN diplomat's perspective is acceptable under WP:DUE, they would obviously be preferable because they aren't anonymous. The meaning is by every criteria, that current is not appropriate.

The hospital construction point is equally inappropriate for reasons I've stated repeatedly before, I'm not sure why it's been resurrected when it holds a problem of WP:PROPORTION. As said, here is no consensus on the effect of the lockdowns and even if an opinion on them was warranted, a random FT journalist is not a WP:DUE source for the claim. I don't see how merging the FT and Tsang as appropriate. Both talk about different things. Sleath56 (talk) 00:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

"unnamed UN diplomat" should be reworded as "UN diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity". The UN diplomat presumably wished to remain unnamed as this would almost certainly bring reprisals against their home country from China. More importantly, the quote "The WHO is so much in thrall to China’s influence" does a great job of summing other other sources (CNN, Guardian) that have asserted that China wields a great deal of power in the WHO.

“The WHO is so much in thrall to China’s influence, they have felt compelled to stay close to China’s line on this crisis,” says one UN diplomat who spoke on condition of anonymity. “China wanted to downplay this virus and the WHO felt it had to fall into line, at least until its position became untenable.”[13]

The WHO's praise of China's response have led critics to question the relationship between the two entities. The UN agency relied on funding and the cooperation of members to function, giving wealthy member states like China considerable influence. Perhaps one of the most overt examples of China's sway over the WHO is its success in blocking Taiwan's access to the body, a position that could have very real consequences for the Taiwanese people if the virus takes hold there.The WHO's position regarding China has also renewed a longstanding debate about whether the WHO, founded 72 years ago, is sufficiently independent to allow it to fulfill its purpose.[14]

At every press briefing, WHO director general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus has defended China’s handling of the epidemic in the face of critical questions. At the end of January, when Tedros declared a public health emergency of international concern – having put it off a week earlier under what was assumed to be pressure from Beijing – he praised China for protecting the rest of the world. [15] FobTown (talk) 18:52, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Some of the positive coverage, particularly the hospital, is technically #Misinformation as the state media and Ministry of Foreign Affairs claimed it was up in 16 hours (it prolly took at least a week) but for now it better belongs in the #Censorship and police response (or better yet #Censorship, propoganda, and police response section. #Misinformation for now is more appropriate for conspiracy theories and rumors.

Chinese state-owned media and at least one party official are spreading disinformation to convince foreigners of the success of Beijing’s response to the growing public health emergency of the coronavirus.

People’s Daily, owned by the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and the most-circulated newspaper in China, and Lijian Zhao, a deputy director of information with the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs, tweeted an image Monday morning of a building they claimed was a hospital in Wuhan, China, the center of the recent coronavirus outbreak. The publication and the bureaucrat said enterprising workers in Wuhan had constructed the hospital in just 16 hours. In reality, the picture showed an apartment building more than 600 miles away. BuzzFeed News first reported the fakes.

Chinese speed. Infrastructure maniac. The 1st building of #Wuhan's #Coronavirus hospital, Huoshenshan hospital, completed construction in 16 hours. The whole 1000-bed hospital will be completed in 9 days. It will be transferred after one day of medical equipment installation. pic.twitter.com/6EUJn9DFXD — Lijian Zhao 赵立坚 (@zlj517) January 27, 2020 “Chinese speed. Infrastructure maniac. The 1st building of #Wuhan’s #Coronavirus hospital, Huoshenshan hospital, completed construction in 16 hours,” Zhao wrote.

The Global Times, another party outlet, published a story Monday about the purported construction: “Amazing! Huoshenshan Hospital’s 1st building completed in 16 hours!” A screenshot in BuzzFeed’s story showed that the Global Times used the same picture as Zhao and People’s Daily. The picture no longer appeared in the article Monday afternoon.

Yaqiu Wang, a researcher with the Human Rights Watch who studies Chinese censorship, said the boast was not surprising, given that the Chinese government has long prided itself on quick construction.

“The government wants to use the new hospital to show it is on top of things, but apparently it is not. Even the picture of the hospital is fake,” Wang said. [16] FobTown (talk) 19:02, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

As there is now a |Controversies related to the 2019–20 coronavirus outbreak page, there is no reason not to pursue WP:SUMMARY within the main article. Sleath56 (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

The separate Controversies page is at the present a rag tag collection so positive coverage does not belong there, omitting positive coverage also breaks the flow of the #Censorship and police response segment. FobTown (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The page was created a day ago by another editor. That supposition doesn't mean it's not the correct avenue for the more tabulative entries that have been the subject of discussion here. Nothing was omitted at all, as has been reminded before, the section as revised satisfies WP:SUMMARY. With the main article as the only location of discussion, I held willingness to extend the discussion to find a satisfying variant for WP:DUE. Now that there's a main whole controversy article, I see no reason the outbreak page should be bloated as such instead of abiding by established guidelines under WP:SUMMARY which made no confusion in the point that: "A fuller treatment of any major subtopic should go in a separate article of its own. Each subtopic or child article is a complete encyclopedic article in its own right and contains its own lead section that is quite similar to the summary in its parent article." Sleath56 (talk) 03:52, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Nothing changed in insisting on your preferred paragraph, which omits actual incidents while only having quotes. Remember when you previously kept deleting the WHO criticism (when it was a short stub) on the charge of WP:SUMMARY but since then you accepted it after I expanded it? I would have had no problem with you tagging that section or addressing concerns, but you can't just delete material that you don't agree with (as opposed to a blatant violation) on the excuse of WP:DUE or WP:NPOV or WP:SYNTHESIS, and now WP:SUMMARY, if its well supported by reputable sources. FobTown (talk) 14:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Statements issued by Xi Jinping on 3 February declared the need for an emphasis by state media on "telling the moving stories of how [people] on the front line are preventing and fighting the virus" as a priority of coverage, while top official Zhang Xiaoguo said that his department would "treat propaganda regarding the control and prevention measures of the virus as its top priority".^[1][2] The Cyberspace Administration (CAC) declared its intent to foster an "good online atmosphere," with CAC notices sent to video platforms encouraging them to "not to push any negative story, and not to conduct non-official livestreaming on the virus."^[3]

Steve Tsang isn't even explicitly mentioned in my latest paragraph revision. FobTown (talk) 14:04, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

A statement on General Secretary Xi Jinping on 3 February declared the need for an emphasis by state media on "telling the moving stories of how [people] on the front line are preventing and fighting the virus" as a priority of coverage, while top official Zhang Xiaoguo said that his department would "treat propaganda regarding the control and prevention measures of the virus as its top priority".^[1][2] For instance state media organizations People's Daily and Global Times, along with deputy director of information Zhao Lijian from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, have been observed to be publishing effusive praise on Beijing's response to the epidemic,^[4] such as extensive coverage of the accelerated construction of the new hospitals in Wuhan (which Zhao claimed was completed in 16 hours),^[5][6] the lock down of Wuhan with its population of 11 million, and the "unprecedented" quarantine of Hubei province. Though such efforts had a questional effect on the epidemic, as the new hospitals were operating at under half-capacity due to shortages of beds and medical resources^[7][8] while the lock down of Wuhan came too late to be effective as millions had left, the Financial Times and others noted that such widely publicised actions were a "PR coup" showing that the "overbearing, centralized government" of China was particularly suited to dealing with the outbreak^[9][10][11], creating the impression as if Beijing had directly intervened at Xi Jinping's request.^{[12][13][14][15][12][13][14]}

At one point you actually agreed with the following: "bifurcated approach to diffuse discontent", while the propaganda machinery was going into "overdrive...to protect [Xi Jinping's] reputation", citizens were permitted to criticise local officials so long as they did not "question the basic legitimacy of the party". This quote helps flow from positive coverage to censorship.

I moved your Cyberspace Administration to the next paragraph as that concurs with the subsequent content of discouraging/censoring negative stories. FobTown (talk) 14:07, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

As part of the central government's "bifurcated approach to diffuse discontent", while the propaganda machinery was going into "overdrive...to protect [Xi Jinping's] reputation", citizens were permitted to criticise local officials so long as they did not "question the basic legitimacy of the party".^[16] The Cyberspace Administration (CAC) declared its intent to foster an "good online atmosphere," with CAC notices sent to video platforms encouraging them to "not to push any negative story, and not to conduct non-official livestreaming on the virus."^[17] Censorship has been observed being applied on news articles and social media posts deemed to hold negative tones about the coronavirus and the governmental response, including posts mocking Xi Jinping for not visiting areas of the epidemic,^[18] an article that predicted negative effects of the epidemic on the economy, and calls to remove local government officials.^{[15][19][20][2]} Chinese citizens have reportedly used innovative methods to avoid censorship to express anger about how government officials have handled the initial outbreak response, such as using the word 'Trump' to refer to Xi Jinping, or 'Chernobyl' to refer to the outbreak as a whole.^[1] While censorship had been briefly relaxed giving a "window of about two weeks in which Chinese journalists were able to publish hard-hitting stories exposing the mishandling of the novel coronavirus by officials", since then private news outlets were reportedly required to use "planned and controlled publicity" with the authorities' consent.^[21][1][2]

After consideration of RS which include contrary numerous views on the latter, I raise again my initial concern such that the entries on WHO have been moved to the WHO's main article. I do remember as those concerns have always been valid, but in the spirit of compromise, I had accepted them under the view that further RS would come with substantive criticism to merit its inclusion. As the trimming of overly excessive entries in that part have been repeatedly rejected, and the intent appears to be bloat and contrary to WP:SUMMARY, I retract the support per the further comment above which I do agree with that it allows appeals to use my own act of compromise as a club in discussion. None of the points of criticism are substantial in that they hold evidential merit, the examples of the contrary can be seen on the Ebola page of what evidential criticism looks like. WP:PROPORTION and WP:DUE are not fanciful notions to be considered, and as components of WP:NPOV, they are non-negotiable in consideration, especially when counter objections based on guidelines have not been stated at all throughout the discussion.

@Robert McClenon: Are you available to provide a 3O perspective on this matter, as at this time now, the DRN has effectively stonewalled for 4 days. Sleath56 (talk) 21:35, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Throwing up complaints (WP:NPOV, WP:PROPORTION, WP:DUE, WP:SYNTHESIS), and now attempting to claim WP:SUMMARY, is not in the spirit of compromise, rather like another editor complained these are ill-conceived excuses to delete selective without considering working through it. FobTown (talk) 22:01, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

On the contrary, you were absolutely right. A selective selection is rather hypocritical, and editorial compromise should come from assessment of validity as guidelines present and not just personal desire to establish a compromise. As such, I stand behind my previous position, but I’ll accept those concerns are secondary at the moment to the primary focus: The entries in the censorship section have already been repeated ad nauseam. They don’t merit repeat when repeated citations merit no response through an explanation of guidelines. Per the response above: Welcome to Wikipedia, this is not a PERSONALESSAY if that was under the impression. On this site, guidelines are established to keep direction and prevent exactly the unilateral self-justified edits to preferred variants as has been routine throughout this. I've cited WP concerns with clear examples, and there has been no interaction with those in response throughout. The objection above that WP:SUMMARY is only "now attempting to claimed" as if it was a novel concern is patently comic and belies an unwillingness to engage and read what other participants have said. That seems to explain why the discussion seems to repeat itself ad-nauseum even though everything has been repetitiously discussed already. It's literally in my opening statement in this DRN. Sleath56 (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator[edit]

I am switching back to WP:DRN Rule A. Be civil and concise. Everyone has been civil, but no one has been concise. Address your comments to the moderator and the community, not to each other. Now: Will each editor state, in one paragraph, what they think is the primary issue about article content? Comment on content, not contributors. If you can't summarize the issues in one paragraph, summarize an issue or issues in one paragraph. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:13, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

User:Sleath56, User:FobTown, User:Akira CA, User:Feminist. Please provide your one-paragraph summaries of the article content issues within 36 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:19, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors[edit]

I no longer consider myself involved with the article. feminist (talk) 05:22, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

It seems feminist and me are falsely added to the list above, this dispute is between Sleath56 and FobTown. Akira CA (talk) 09:21, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

One problem is that there is a high disregard for section bloat. It almost appears as if the intent is to bury prominent examples of censorship within paragraphs of minute factoids. WP:SUMMARY is a legitimate policy that must be followed. The censorship section is already 19k bytes and entries there should be concise and not just stuffing in everything reported under the sun. There is a Controversies related to the 2019-20 coronavirus outbreak page, along with Censorship in China and Internet censorship in China pages, which are all linked. Yet the appearence seems to be plugging up the section with entries that don't warrant WP:PROPORTION or WP:DUE. Something that is absolutely non-negotiable is the preference to revert section phrasing to a personal pet variant, even though the main version has been refined by numerous editors, for sentences that are often directly plagarised word-for-word from sources. Additional stubborn revisions to a grammar error-ridden state with changes that seem excessively petty, such as changing "Statements issued by Xi Jinping on 3 February" to a grammatically non-sensical "A statement on General Secretary Xi Jinping on 3 February" are one example of this. Sleath56 (talk) 17:37, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

While the state positive coverage and propaganda section may compete with censorship in terms of length, I an clearly not trying to bury anything (i.e. delete content from censorship) as I prefer an all-inclusive article. If anything, I have to commend you for adding the New York Times article which shows the effect of propaganda and how young people reacted skeptically to it.[17] It is a similar theme to the Financial Times and National Post articles showing how international observers reacted to the state positive coverage, with some being wowed and others seeing through the deception. FobTown (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator[edit]

Comment on content, not contributors. That means comment on content, not contributors. Be specific. ("Section bloat" is not specific. "All-inclusive" is not specific.") User:Sleath56, User:FobTown - Will each of you please identify three sections about which there is disagreement, and state what each of you wants to do with each of the sections. Do not refer to the other editor. The purpose of this mediation is to improve the article. List three sections, one paragraph each, and tell what should be changed or kept the same in each section. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors[edit]

The point of order I hold in explanation is that there is a section: #Censorship and police responses, which through my intent has been organized to WP:SUMMARY standards that uphold WP:PROPORTION by focus on prominent events or acts of police and government censorship.:

• "An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news."

My objection has been to the implementation of expatiating details which are principally reactions to the censorship, which contributes to bloat as the incorporation of those points would necessitate inserting contrary points from WP:BALANCE. Unless an opinion is necessary to explain how an act is censorship, I've maintained a concise section such that bloat as described above need not happen. Trimming down the section has brought it to 19k, whilst the alternative version is 26.6k. Additionally, I oppose co-opting the section towards this unnecessary unproportionatal expansion towards this concept of 'positive coverage' which is far more subjective and less blatant than the clear police acts and government censorship tactics as clear repressive acts that are being marginalized by this overenthusiastic concern on this specific 'concept', I haven't opposed it but rather trimmed it down which is frankly enough. This is especially a necessity as the specific elaborations contain plagiarising directly from the source materials. There are three different articles, one directly relating to the outbreak, for this topic those expatiating details need to go instead. The diff can be compared here: 1. The merits for cutting points have been stated above. This is an overall summary for against such entries. Sleath56 (talk) 20:15, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Sixth Statement by Moderator[edit]

Prologue[edit]

The parties have ignored instructions to be civil and concise, and have been civil but excessively long, which is better than being uncivil, but does not help resolve a content dispute. The parties have ignored instructions not to engage in back-and-forth discussion. The usual resolution for cases that fail discussion here is a Request for Comments, but that does not seem workable when the editors will not follow instructions. There is no right answer now, but the least wrong way to address this dispute is probably WP:ANI, where the parties can engage in lengthy back-and-forth which may result either in a warning or in sanctions. (talk) 03:36, 28 February 2020 (UTC)}}

Re-Opening Comments[edit]

Okay. User:Sleath56 - I am re-opening this case again. It isn't entirely clear to me what Sleath56 expects from a moderator. It appears that they, Sleath56, are the primary contributor to the walls of text, although both parties are to blame there. If Sleath56 is expecting that by providing me with so much verbiage that I can't distill what they want a third opinion on, I will decide in their favor, they don't understand how I handle DRN. If they are expecting that I will offer a compromise, as they say the are requesting, they need to be concise.

If another volunteer is willing to handle this dispute, I thank them. Otherwise I will continue for a little while.

Now, I will ask: Do the editors want to discuss specific sections of the article, or do the editors want to talk about specifying some ground rules, such as about length of sections of the article? Each editor may provide up to three paragraphs, each about a specific section of the article, and one paragraph about ground rules. Label each paragraph. If an editor replies to another editor, I will fail this discussion again, and will recommend that that editor be given a one-way interaction ban against the other editor, without the usual exceptions.

Try again. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Sixth Statements by Editors[edit]

Carried Over[edit]

@Robert McClenon:: Appreciate the role of moderation you've held throughout, but taking note to your comment, I can't help but object to the closure as I was really quite hoping this dispute could be resolved without escalation. AN/I isn't really appropriate as I would like to still view this as a content dispute apart from the flagrant disregard to follow DRNA in refraining from editing the article from the status quo. I think it's clear that the discussion is stonewalled, as you've said, but I think I can say for both participants that we were hoping that the moderator would weigh in to either provide a compromise suggestion or if that seems unattainable, to at least provide a third opinion on whether the citations of guideline concerns by both side had merit. I certainly opened the DRN with the hope that a 3O would just simply weigh into the matter. I've directly opened a DDR/3 previous to this but that went unadopted. All I would really just like is an 3O to weigh in if the concerns I hold have merit, if they don't, I'd be perfectly willing to close my end of the dispute. I was under the impression the 5th statement I've provided was concise enough to state my position considering how tediously long the back-and-forth became. Sleath56 (talk) 05:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Sixth Statement by Sleath56[edit]

Sixth Statement by FobTown[edit]

The section #Censorship and police response being strictly for censorship and police incidents is far too limiting, therefore I have advocated for it to be renamed #Censorship, propaganda, and police response. Indeed why would many in the international press discuss both censorship and positive coverage in the same article? Because both censorship and positive coverage go hand in hand for those article authors. For instance in the death of Li Wenliang, censors first tried to block online discussion and then the state media attempted to "co-opt the incident by "cast[ing] Dr. Li's death as the nation's sacrifice". And likewise in the New York Times article, it discusses young individuals' mistrust of state propaganda pusing heroic sacrifice stories and young individuals' attempts to get around censorship (i.e. digital archives or substitute keywords). [20] If not in #Censorship, propaganda, and police reponse (which is by far the most appropriate), then where else should positive coverage go in the article? FobTown (talk) 04:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

In response to concerns about section bloat, the blocking of hashtags after Li Wenliang's death was originally just another instance of censorship in earlier versions of the article. However, after Li Wenliang's death provoked calls for freedom of speech among young people and academics, it was decided to making the censorship and coverage on his death a separate paragraph. Sure that might make a lengthy section even lengthier, but I'm all for this approach since everyone's contributions are included as long as it is backed by reliable sources and isn't duplication. FobTown (talk) 05:00, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

References for Coronavirus[edit]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Maximus the Greek (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Khirurg (talk · contribs)
• Dr.K. (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is over which sources to use regarding Maximus the Greek's nationality, as there are various sources (19th, 20th century) that state he is an Albanian, a Greek and a Greek Albania. No consensus has been reached. The dispute boils down to "your sources are trash".

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? YES: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=942265202#Maximus_the_Greek

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarify Wikipedia rules and policies regarding valid sources? Propose a new solution? Edion Petriti (talk) 12:39, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Summary of Dispute by Khirurg[edit]

Summary of Dispute by Dr.K.[edit]

I don't think there is any dispute as to the origin of Maximus the Greek. Please check the article to see that the overwhelming majority of academic, if not all, RS call him the scion of a Greek family who was born in Arta, Greece. The OP is pushing the POV from some obsolete old sources that Arta was in Albania, which is an anhistorical perspective, given that Albania did not exist during Ottoman times. The OP has also found a periodical from the 1860s calling Maximus the Greek, an Albanian. This is clearly an obsolete old source not recognised or quoted by modern academics. This posting here is an attempt to defy the state of modern scholarship regarding the origins of Maximus and it has to stop. I have provided at least 43 modern (and old) RS from the who is who of academia to the article attesting to the Greek origins of Maximus, complete with full quotes for easy verification. Dr. K. 01:21, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

• Addendum: It is characteristic that Maximus himself signed his writings as Maximus Grecus Lakedaimon (i.e., Maximus the Greek of, and originating from, Lakedaimonia) and his family origins were probably from Mystras, a location in Laconia, which was the geographical site of Ancient Sparta in the Peloponnese. See Google link of article in the Springer encyclopedia by Greek scholar and Maximus specialist Dr Georgios Steiris, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Medieval and Renaissance PhilosophyFaculty of Philosophy, Pedagogy, PsychologySchool of Philosophy National and Kapodistrian University of Athens. Demerius Trivolis, Manuel's brother Maximus's uncle), self-identified as 'a Peloponnesian from Sparta'.^[1] The Trivolis family was later associated with the Palaiologos dynasty in Mistras.^[2][3]

Citation by Denisoff: Les travaux classiques sur l'histoire byzantine ne mentionnent pas, en effet, la famille Trivolis à laquelle notre démonstration apparente le moine hagiorite Maxime le Grec. (1) Une lettre ... fournit l'expression incontestable de relations AMICALES. Denissoff, p. 118-119. — meaning friendly relations, not family ones. Edion Petriti (talk) 09:55, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Edion Petriti[edit]

There is a dispute concerning his origin - the first sources regarding his ethnicity are all Russian - given he was active in Russia. There are sources stating he was a Greek, a Greek Albanian (i.e. an Orthodox Albanian - even though he was a Catholic monk for quite some time), and an ethnic Albanian. The POV that Albania did not exist at the time is non-historical; if we were to adhere to this logic, there was neither a Greece at the time of the Ottoman conquest, we're not talking about national states as they begin to appear in the XIX century. Where was Maximus born? Vernadskiy, Smurlo, Polevoy simply state: "in Albania". A document of the Lavra of the Most Holy Trinity, cited by Golubinski (Istoriya Russkie Tserkve, 1900, tome II, p.666-7) affirms that he was originally from "the city of Arta". Historians do not agree on this point; some place it in Greece (Calendar [=Martyrologium] of the Catholic Orthodox Church, ed. Kosolanov, 1880, p. 47), some in Epirus (Golubinski, op. cit. p. 667) and some in Albania (Nilskiy, Il Venberabile Massimo il Greco, martire della Civilizzazione, "Khristianskoe chtjenie, 1862, vol. I, pp. 313-386). Maximus is the ecclesiastical name, the secular one being Michael Trivolis. "... we have in our own possession letters of this Michael, in Mount Athos there are canons, epigrams and epitaphs of the monk Trivolis". ... This is the first dicovery of Denisoff that guided him on further, fruitful discoveries on the youth of Trivolis. On the physical aspect of Trivolis, see the two illustrations published by Polevoy (History of the Russian Literature, 903, I, pp. 172-3). The epithet "Albanian" is given to him by Filaret Drozdov, and Palmieri. Porfiriev calls him a "Greek Albanian", and also Elpatievskiy - defining with the first epithet the cultural education and with the second, his nationality. The Russian Church has given him the epithet of "prepodobniy" (the Just). Edion Petriti (talk) 07:17, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Maximus the Greek Discussion[edit]

1st volunteer statement[edit]

Okay now that this has been filed correctly, I will volunteer to mediate it. First I want to be sure that all 3 editors involved are willing to participate. @Dr.K.: and @Khirurg: are you willing to participate in this process? Nightenbelle (talk) 19:17, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

• OK for me. Edion Petriti (talk) 07:18, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Well then to make sure I'm clear on where we are. @Edion Petriti: wants to change the article so it says he was a Greek Albanian, and @Dr.K.: and @Khirug: both want to leave it as is. There is some conflict over which sources we should use, with Edion favoring older sources and Dr. K and Khirug favoring more modern sources. Edion- I know you said you would like clarification here, but we are mediators here, we help people find compromises, we don't make decisions. So what I'm going to do instead, is perhaps suggest adding a section/few sentences on the historiography of Maximus the Greek that describes how earlier historians thought his origins may have been X, but modern historians now believe Y. Would anyone have a problem with that? Nightenbelle (talk) 15:12, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Nightenbelle: Thank you for your considered proposal. You are an excellent mediator. Your proposal is good, except if you look at the vast majority of the sources, modern, and even older ones, they converge on certain key points. 1. The Trivolis family originated in Mystras, Laconia and was connected to the entourage of the Palaiologos dynasty. 2. Demetrius, Maximus's uncle, self-identified as a "Greek from Peloponnese". 3. Manuel and Irene, Maximus's parents, originally lived in Constantinople and emigrated to Arta, where Manuel became the military governor of the city. 4. Maximus signed as "Maximus Grecus Lakedaimon". This leaves no ambiguity as to where the academic consensus lies regarding the origins of Maximus. As far as the semantics of Arta, Epirus, or Arta, Greece, or Arta, Albania, etc., these arguments are rendered irrelevant. Because Maximus belonged to a Greek family, identified as Greek, his uncle was and identified as Greek, so no matter where Arta was, Maximus was Greek. To try and compare the tiny minority of sources that mention he was Albanian, or that he came from Arta, Albania, to the current academic consensus and its context, would be an exercise in WP:UNDUE and would violate WP:NPOV and WP:OR. Dr. K. 19:56, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Nightenbelle, there are also modern sources... this is the problem; 20th century sources that the editors involved are not willing to take into consideration. I just wanted to add a section on his "probable" Albanian origin, but the editors Dr.K and Khirurg wouldn't have it. If you add a section, on his disputed origins, fine by me. There are a lot of Albanians with the Tërvoli surname. Edion Petriti (talk) 08:18, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Here we have incontrovertible evidence by dozens of RS that the Trivolis family iriginated from Sparta and that his parents came to Arta from Byzantium. We have two handwritten notes of Maximus's uncle calling himself a "Peloponnesian from Sparta" ("This most beautiful book of mine is property of Demetrios Trivolis Peloponnesian from Sparta. I bought it after the fall of our fatherland Lacedaemonia, which was once fortunate". and "The present book was written by my own hand of Demetrios Trivolis Peloponnesian from Sparta who made these works in the island of the Corcyreans after the fall of our fatherland"), top of the line RS attesting that Maximus himself signed as "Maximus Grecus Lakedaimon" and you are still arguing about the "probable" Albanian origin of Maximus. You also mention the pure speculation WP:OR that There are a lot of Albanians with the Tërvoli surname.. This is getting to be disruptive editing. I advise you to drop the stick. Dr. K. 17:52, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle This is what I'm talking about, this is the users' attitude I am dealing with. Edion Petriti (talk) 19:00, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

2nd Volunteer Statement[edit]

So what I am hearing then, is the other two editors involved have no interest in finding a compromise- they are set. In that case, this DRN is not going to help. We cannot make decisions on content. If you want more imput- a RFC would be better. Honestly, however, I would also suggest WP:RS for some research, then ask them why these editors are not accepting your sources. A DRN only works if all editors are willing to participate and compromise. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Janet Jackson (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Rodneygunn (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The total Album sales should be updated from over 100 million to over 185 million. The over 100 million is heavily outdated. The fact of over 185 millions should reflect the actual sales.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2020/02/international-icon-janet-jackson-announces-black-diamond-world-tour-2020/

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Correct the problem and change the sales. Here is a link for accurate sales. https://www.livenationentertainment.com/2020/02/international-icon-janet-jackson-announces-black-diamond-world-tour-2020/

Janet Jackson discussion[edit]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Salve Regina University (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Melcous (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Wikipedia user 'Melcous' continues to state that the Salve Regina University Wiki page is somehow not neutral, saying that there are links to sources which do not provide factual backup, and then continuing to place the non-neutral template warning at the top of the page over and over again without provide any specific evidence as to why. Melcous fails to provide any specific evidence that page has continuous neutrality problems. In addition, Melcous continues to threaten those editing the Salve Regina University page, threatening to ban others from Wikipedia, etc.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Salve_Regina_University&oldid=944443163

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Stop Melcous from placing false and inaccurate templates at the top of the Salve Regina University page and to inform Melcous that it is improper to threaten other users without any justification whatsoever.

Summary of dispute by Melcous[edit]

Salve Regina University discussion[edit]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.