The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. T. Canens (talk) 14:24, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

American professional soccer players abroad[edit]

American professional soccer players abroad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Contested PROD. Numerous issues with this topic - entirely unreferenced; no evidence the topic has been subject to significant coverage, as opposed to run-of-the-mill WP:ROUTINE news stories about an American signing for a foreign team; WP:LISTCRUFT; inaccurate (e.g. Nermin Crnkić is listed even though he is not American, and there are numerous players who do not play in professional leagues; arbitrary inclusion criteria. Need I go on? This kind of information is more than adequately covered by Category:American expatriate soccer players. GiantSnowman 09:44, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 09:46, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: Again, there is a difference between this page and Category:American expatriate soccer players. One covers past and present foreign based players, including those with a page, while the other covers only Americans abroad now, whether they have a page or not. Jozy Altidore for example would be in that category but not on this page. Secondly, Nermin has an American passport, played high school soccer in the United States, and is eligible for the US national team. Thirdly, I agree when you say that there is no significant news coverage on the subject and thus I say delete. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 14:49, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ArsenalFan700 — The article now has references that include several publications that provide significant news coverage. I don't know if these article revisions change your views. Barryjjoyce (talk) 13:49, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - I can't see there being any advantage to having a current listing of American footballers playing abroad; this would require a ridiculous amount of work to keep up to date; the category is sufficient. Spiderone 15:06, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stating that it would require a ridiculous amount of work to keep up to date is a ridiculous point. It would take a lot of work to maintain all the thousands upon thousands of player articles each match day, it would take a lot of work to maintain club record lists and the like etc. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 16:45, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete There's already a Category for this subject. An unreferenced, inaccurate list with questionable inclusion criteria is not what an encyclopaedic entry should look like. Exemplo347 (talk) 08:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exemplo347 — Responding to each of your comments in turn: (1) arguing that a category duplicates a list (or vice versa) at a deletion discussion is not a valid reason for deletion and should be avoided, see WP:NOTDUPE, (2) the article is referenced now, plus see WP:NEXIST, (3) all identified inaccuracies have been addressed, plus see WP:SURMOUNTABLE, (4) the inclusion criteria are clear (to me at least) and satisfy WP:LISTCRITERIA, what about the criteria are "questionable" in your view? Barryjjoyce (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:04, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Spiderone 16:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment — I don't feel strongly whether this article stays or goes, but I do hope that whatever decision is made is based on correct facts and correct interpretations of wiki policies and guidelines, and not based on mistaken assumptions. In that vein, I'd like to make a few points. First, the fact that the article had no references at the time of deletion nomination is not a correct basis to delete; per WP:NEXIST, the correct standard is whether sources exist, not whether they are present in the article. In any case, I have added a few references. Second, several folks have claimed that this topic does not have significant coverage. That is not so. I have added references from eight sources. Many US soccer media outlets report on Americans abroad quite prominently, and for at least one source, this topic is their exclusive focus. Third, nobody has explained what is "arbitrary" or "questionable" about the inclusion criteria. The criteria for inclusion, as explained in the article, is that the players are (1) Americans, and (2) playing soccer professionally abroad. I'm not sure what other inclusion criteria people are proposing. Fourth, the presence of some errors, per WP:RUBBISH, is not a valid reason for deletion, esp where the nominator himself has been demonstrated to have been inaccurate in attempting to point out the claimed inaccuracies. Relatedly, the complaint about non-professional leagues being included has been fixed. It took all of 10 minutes. Not a valid reason for deletion. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:45, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - per GS, whilst I agree the category does not quite equal the listing, I also agree that, aside from the fact that I don't think the subject has gained any real coverage per WP:NLIST, I don't think that "professionally" can be clearly defined. anyone who has been paid any money is professional and this would create a list of unmanageable length. Fenix down (talk) 09:41, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fenix down — I believe the article addresses both of your reservations. The references section lists a number of publications that provide significant coverage about Americans playing abroad. And the article is limited to players in a "fully-professional league", a term that has been defined by WikiProject Football, and that is used in applying the WP:NFOOTBALL notability guideline. Barryjjoyce (talk) 13:48, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The fully professional league bit doesn't really help, as it is a project-defined criterion used for notability, the list itself is still incredibly vague and there is not a clear indication of notability per LISTN, for instance:

1. There is no indication that there is any requirement to make a first team appearance, simply to "play for the club".
2. This list seems to work as a "live list". How would this be managed?
3. Why include the regionalliga, it is not an FPL
4. Why are players for FPL teams in Canada not included?
5. What about players who might play for reserve teams which currently play in FPLs (e.g. Russia)?
6. Why exclude players with dual citizenship that have played for another nation?
7. What about players who are american citizens but have only declared for another nation?
8. The links you have provided are in the main merely search queries for a number of websites. This does not indicate that there is discussion of american soccer players abroad as a subject, only that articles have been written about aerican players who happen to play abroad.

To me, this is simply not a list that can be managed effectively with a clear and agreed set of inclusion criteria and so is not something which is encyclopedic. Fenix down (talk) 14:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.