THC Science

Main case page (Talk) — Preliminary statements (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk)

Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD

Statements on this page are copies of the statements submitted in the original request to arbitrate this dispute, and serve as verbatim copies; therefore, they may not be edited or removed.

Preliminary statements[edit]

Statement by Callanecc[edit]

There is a consensus of administrators at AE to refer conflict in the Armenia-Azerbaijan topic area to the Arbitration Committee for you to consider opening a new case. The consensus formed out of a discussion that the issues facing this area of conflict are more complex than can be successfully resolved at AE and require a full case (with evidence and workshop) to determine what measures may help to reduce conflict and improve the editing environment. Noting the amendment request above for an extended-confirmed restriction and the community discussion about the same (which could likely be folded into this), arbitration processes are best suited to resolving the current conflict on these articles by having the full range of remedies available. Effectively AE admins are saying that this is beyond what we're capable of resolving at AE so we're referring it to you under the CT procedure. I intentionally haven't listed any other parties as I (and the rough consensus at AE) believe that identifying parties needs to be part of the initial steps of opening the case, that is the parties in the current AE request are the catalyst for us referring it to you but not the scope of the problem. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:32, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave the specifics to my colleagues who have more recent experience in this area but broadly the problem admins have at AE is that we're making decisions based on a limited amount of information (which is vastly different following an evidence phase), with a relatively (to a case) limited timeframe and with relatively (to a case) limited timeframe to examine the conduct of everyone rather than those who are actively reported or doing the reporting. For someone to be reported there generally needs to have been some sort of conflict with someone else which means that the scope of who we're going to be able to identify and make summary decisions about is limited short of us actively searching through a topic area. AE is great at dealing with behavioural issues that are relatively clear or can be easily explained and identified in a limited number of diffs. It isn't great looking at long-term patterns of behaviour are beyond what we would accept but aren't clearly obvious to an independent observer. That, really, is why arbitration cases have long evidence and workshop phases - so that that type of conduct can be identified, evidenced and dealt with. El C made a comment in the AE thread about the issues being ideological rather than personal - that's something that AE will always struggle to resolve in a nuanced way (other than just topic banning everyone and moving on until there's an appeal for doing exactly that) but it's what arbitration cases are designed to do. Other admins will likely have some other ideas but I think the need for a case is to look at the long-term conduct of various editors and do, for lack of a better phrase, a clean-out. Re whether contentious topics is fully implemented, it's largely irrelevant as AE admins could, by custom, always do this, CT just formalised it. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork: The intention is that it would be a new case. The reason it came here rather than ARC is the suggestion in the new contentious topics procedure that this is where the Committee would prefer it comes rather than as a case request. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:55, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: In addition to Rosguill's comment below. There might be some scope to do an extended evidence phase and use the extended bit at the start for public & private submissions about who should be parties in the case? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:22, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: I think even if no one different is willing to submit evidence a case that just examines the issues with regard to ZaniGiovanni's evidence it will definitely help. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Brandmeister: The restrictions at WP:GS/RUSUKR now apply to this topic area per this discussion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: Generally, discretionary sanctions tend to be very good at resolving issues that can be clearly demonstrated with succinct evidence and where the conduct breaches behavioural guidelines particularly earlier on in an editor's 'career' on Wikipedia. Where an editor has a greater number of edits in a topic area, especially when there's not been serious previous issues, it is much more difficult to effectively determine what's happened, what if any policies (etc) have been breached and what if any sanctions are appropriate, and then to gain a consensus for that. This is mainly due to the amount of evidence which is, can be and really needs to be submitted to demonstrate long-term patterns of disruptive editing, particularly where that editing is tendentious (and especially when the tendentious component we're being asked to adjudicate is related to §2.6, 2.8 or 2.12). This is primarily due to the intricate nature of what needs to be presented and the knowledge needed to determine if any of those things are happening and how serious it is. On the other hand, arbitration cases are designed to allow editors the time and space to present evidence and design responses to it but also, more importantly, to give arbitrators (particularly the drafting arbs who can become more expert than an admin at AE given that's their job) the time to review the evidence in depth, challenge it, ask questions and workshop ideas. AE just isn't, and can't be, set up to do that. That's why arbs get the big bucks. Additionally, the DS/CT decisions an admin makes needs to be able to stand up to review and appeal by other similarly time-poor and non-expert admins at AE and editors at AN. Enforcing admins need to be able to individually justify their enforcement decisions whenever and wherever they're asked (a little overstated sure, but point stands). That might be satisfied by pointing to an AE thread where it's relatively simple but if the admin needs to search through piles of evidence and look for additional evidence that becomes a much more in-depth job. So the decision for an enforcing admin becomes more complex: not just is the enforcement action justified but can they justify it to a less informed group? On the other hand, the Committee points to the case (with its evidence, workshop and proposed decision) and that is the justification for the decision. This is a feature of DS and AE rather than a bug though. Discretionary sanctions, and even more so contentious topics, are designed to give administrators additional options to deal with problems robustly before they become intractable not to give admins super powers, nor to replace the Arbitration Committee. Even with DS/CT there will be times that AE admins need to refer matters to the Committee because of the complex nature of the issue. That isn't a bug of DS/CT that needs to be fixed, it's a feature. It encourages complex issues to go to the Committee rather than being dealt with summarily so that the best decision can be arrived at. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:53, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

And I just read this (from Barkeep49) which seems like a much more succinct summary of what I was trying to get at. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs)

@Robert McClenon: I realise that you're after an arb opinion but as one of the admins involved here I think going ahead with the moderated discussion could be a big help in the topic area and in the case (if one is opened) as it'll help to clarify, and hence separate, the conduct and content issues that are being referenced. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 08:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Rosguill[edit]

The problem that Callanecc describes regarding scope and evidence is correct. At this point, the entrenched editors of AA have been feuding for years, and it is difficult to distinguish tendentious attempts to use AE to win the conflict from legitimate frustration. The consequence is that the par for this course, when it comes to civility and impartiality on the part of AA editors, is extremely low, and editors get away with a lot of kicks below the belt because admins only feel like we can intervene when something happens that is so far beyond the pale that it clearly merits a block all by itself. The subject-area is dominated by editors with POV agendas, to a degree that outstrips almost any other subject on Wikipedia.

Additionally, in a thread that is closed but still at the top of AN which describes an off-wiki campaign to POV-push in favor of Turkish viewpoints affecting AA and other topics of interest to aggrieved Turkish nationalists. While a few editors have been blocked and broad 30/500 protections have been authorized, the elephant in the room is that ZaniGiovanni has accused various other editors active in AA of playing an active role in organizing this and other pro-Azerbaijan or pro-Turkey POV campaigns. I think an ArbCom case is necessary in order to evaluate the evidence that ZG has collected. Adjudicating AE cases for edit warring or tendentious use of sources while these accusations lay hanging across the entire topic area (and, given the AN thread, potentially others as well) feels a bit like flagging a player for being offsides while the goalposts are being stolen. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 01:54, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding SilkTork's second comment, I think that the primary concern right now in my mind is the resolution of the off-wiki canvassing allegations. I think it would be inappropriate to pre-empt the finding of fact with predictions about who will end up sanctioned, but the state of the topic-area as a whole may end up significantly affected in response to whichever conclusions ArbCom arrives at and may deserve re-evaluation at that time. I think it would make sense for ArbCom to take up the off-wiki canvassing issue first, and to expect a further request for clarification and amendment from us if the outcome does not significantly address the general disruption in the subject area. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, beside ZaniGiovanni and Abrvagl who are already named, I expect that ZaniGiovanni can best name additional parties as they are the one that has raised the allegation. My off-hand recollection is that there are a range of claims of differing levels of involvement against a few different editors (including but not limited to Abrvagl), and I don't want to risk misleading anyone by listing parties on their behalf. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 18:59, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, I think your summary was fine and I don't have anything to add beyond seconding Callanecc's description as well. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 00:43, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Seraphimblade[edit]

I agree entirely with the issues brought up by Callanecc and Rosguill. The problems in this area have gone beyond what AE can handle by sanctioning a few bad actors. And of course, AE cannot review private evidence of off-wiki collusion as ArbCom can. Like the community (as shown by the recent ECP request), AE admins are at wits' end in dealing with this topic area.

To answer the question from SilkTork and the others, the intent here is a referral to ArbCom as laid out in the new contentious topic procedures. At this point, I don't think any of us know exactly what that even looks like, and who should be on the list of parties to the case is also not yet determined. While the immediate AE request precipitating this involved a dispute between two editors, the problems in the area go much deeper than that and involve many other editors. So I think the request is to open a new case, but also to determine what the scope and participants should be, hence why the request is here rather than just as a new case request. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 03:43, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Brandmeister[edit]

There's one particular ongoing pattern in the AA area that I think is worth considering - the usage of sleeper accounts as has been noticed e.g. here ("gaming autoconfirmed then going into hibernation"). Such accounts may look like sockpuppets, but are often found to be unrelated to each other, consuming editors' time and efforts at WP:SPI. Perhaps implementation of what has been done in WP:GS/RUSUKR, Remedy A (opening discussions only to extended-confirmed editors, while comments by other editors can be removed) is warranted per WP:GAME. What do admins and arbitrators think of that? Brandmeister^talk 08:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for heads up, Callanecc. Brandmeister^talk 10:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ZaniGiovanni[edit]

I've been targeted by Abrvagl for the longest time now whether in AE or otherwise; during the first month since my tban expired (15th November), my name has been involved in at least 3 reports already by ideologically opposing editors [1], [2], [3]. None of these have resulted in sanctions, neither did Abrvagl's subpar reports throughout 2022. For the longest time I wanted to comment about the Azerbaijani off-wiki meatpuppet groups but I couldn't because of WP:OUTING. Even when I got the 2 month tban during my own close challenge (when I said 8 out of 8 Oppose users were Azerbaijani or az-wiki admins), I couldn't directly provide evidence of canvassing groups because I'd had to brake outing. I hope I can speak freely here. The users I've identified canvassing through social media/off-wiki groups are Abrvagl, Solavirum (indeffed for socking), Qızılbaş and Rəcəb Yaxşı. These are the ones I intend to provide evidence for. There is broader involvement by additional accounts, but I've been unable to tie considerable off-wiki canvassing/disruption to any other editors in particular. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 19:13, 7 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Abrvagl, you're not in ANI anymore. When making outrageous claims like this Even here, their comment indicates that they continue to believe that it is OK to oppose RfC votes based on the editors' assumed ethnicity, despite them being Tbanned for that exact case., be sure you can prove it. The only thing my comment above indicates regarding the RFC is that it's not OK to canvass. For future reference to ArbCom/admins, this isn't the first time Abrvagl makes baseless accusations in their comments so I hope something like this doesn't pass further in here and Abrvagl finally starts being more diligent especially when making such blatant accusations with no foundation, considering my comment is literally above for everyone to read.

I don't have any comments on the canvassing allegations. I've never done any canvassing, nor do I have any off-wiki contacts with the other named editors. – I'd expect you to deny off-wiki canvassing, but I don't think it's going to help you. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 11:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49: Am I understanding it correctly that the AA3 is still in the process of being accepted or not, and should I comment the aforementioned off-wiki evidence here or after the ArbCom vote ends? ZaniGiovanni (talk) 16:31, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have the off-wiki coordination evidence ready and if emailing it to Arbcom is felt to be a prerequisite for opening a case then I'm ready to do it. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork emailed to arbcom-en@wikimedia.org. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:02, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by North8000[edit]

These things are simpler to understand and harder to solve than most understand. There is a contest out in the real world. With Wikipedia being influential, each side works to help their side in the real world contest by tilting the Wiki article. An unacknowledged common milder form of wp:gaming / wp:wikilawyering. And if done in a sufficiently wiki-saavy way one doesn't smacked and can keep doing it. And maybe get your opponents smacked. And the articles stay contentious forever, or at least as long as the real world contest continues. Evolution of policies and guidance is probably needed more than an arbcom case. It should be "Your #1 priority should be top quality of he article" rather than the above-described stuff. If you can make a finding like this within policies and guidelines, maybe you could fix things on this topic and have a template for fixes elsewhere. Or maybe in areas of this case you see a possibility of uncovering egregious offenses not easily visible and use normal remedies. Otherwise I'd recommend not taking unless you see a clear possibility of what you may accomplish. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:43, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Abrvagl[edit]

The issue that led to this situation is already clearly described in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines: It's a case of long-term Tendentious and Civil POV Push editing behaviour by one of the most active editors of AA2 that cannot be correctly stated in a few diffs, and as a result, the community is facing difficulty dealing with it. The issues with civil POV pushing and tendentious editing are one of the main problems I'd like to see the committee tackle to, at the very least, prevent the toxicity that currently dominates almost every discussion going on in AA2.

ZaniGiovanni is a user who has displayed prejudice and battlefield behaviour since day one of their editing. There is also serious and extensive evidence of meat puppetry raised against ZaniGiovanni, which I believe the committee should review in conjunction with this case. ZaniGiovanni, who was warned for being uncivil (apparently only to their "ideological opponents") 2 times ([4]; [5]) this year alone, continues to demonstrate the same battlefield-like behaviour despite the numerous Warnings, Bans, and Topic-Bans. Even here, their comment indicates that they continue to believe that it is OK to oppose RfC votes based on the editors' assumed ethnicity, despite them being Tbanned for that exact case.

As far as I'm aware, there is no other editor who has received as many complaints, warnings, or bans in AA2 in such a short amount of time as ZaniGiovanni. If several editors are reporting and complaining about ZaniGiovanni, then perhaps there's a reason for that (one that goes beyond them being ideologically opposing editors). Is it not worth taking a step back and objectively evaluating the broader picture rather than victimising ZaniGiovanni based on the subjective beliefs that there is a cabal out to get rid of them?

I don't have any comments on the canvassing allegations. I've never done any canvassing, nor do I have any off-wiki contacts with the other named editors. A b r v a g l^(PingMe) 10:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork: I have no evidence or involvement with the meatpuppetry allegations against ZaniGiovanni. The report was filed by Golden, and commented by two other editors. I only brought it up because I believed the allegations to be plausible. A b r v a g l^(PingMe) 16:11, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ymblanter[edit]

I am not currently active in the area, but I dealt a lot with the editing area, including my past experience in the Russian Wikipedia - where indeed we had to deal with off-wiki coordination, so may be my perspective could be useful to the Committee. We have two groups of users which are absolutely hostile to each other. No Armenian editor would ever voluntarily agree that Nagorno-Karabakh is part of Azerbaijan, even as a statement of fact, no Azerbaijani editor would ever voluntarily agree it is not. They are not capable of talking to each other in any constructive way, only under a threat of an immediate block and sometimes even despite this threat. They have their own sets of reliable sources which one side accepts and the opposite site does not. They would be reverting the articles to their preferred version forever, until the articles get protected or put under a severe restriction such as 0RR. It is usually not about two users which can not get along - if one of them is blocked another user would come to take their place. And nothing has changed here in the last 15 years. On the other hand, I just do not see what the ArbCom can do here - all the tools are already available, and in my opinion should be applied consistently to all editors in the topic area - topic bans, and then blocks and site bans if they do not learn. I am sceptical about what the actual content of a perspective case could be.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:46, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Robert McClenon[edit]

First, I have moderated Armenia-Azerbaijan discussions at DRN in the past, and will in the near future provide links to them as evidence if there is a case. Second, I am in the process of starting another moderated discussion at DRN, and think that the arbitrators should be aware of this case. The case is at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Massacres_of_Azerbaijanis_in_Armenia_(1917–1921). The participants are:

Olympian (talk · contribs)
Abrvagl (talk · contribs)
ZaniGiovanni (talk · contribs)
Dallavid (talk · contribs)
Alalch E. (talk · contribs)

Should I attempt to conduct moderated discussion, or is this discussion being overtaken by arbitration? Robert McClenon (talk) 08:01, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

User:Callanecc, User:Barkeep49, and others: The DRN case is open, and I am waiting for responses from the parties. I will note that is not about Armenia and Azerbaijan in general, but about a particular historical subtopic. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The dispute has identified 12 sources about whose reliability there are questions, and a case has been opened at the reliable source noticeboard. I expect the case to take between one and three weeks, which is not very precise. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:02, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have closed the DRN case as failed. Some of the editors are arguing with the neutral volunteers at RSN, which makes me pessimistic about the possibility of resolving the dispute. In my opinion, this article content dispute, and other content disputes over other articles about conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan, require administrative or quasi-judicial action before content mediation will be workable. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

History of Disputes

The following are the three most recent disputes at DRN concerning Armenia and Azerbaijan:

As can be seen, these cases involve some of the usual participants, including Grandmaster, Brandmeister, and the banned user Steverci, as well as Chipmunkdavis and CuriousGolden. I haven't reviewed the record to determine which side if either they were on. I will provide links to earlier disputes in the near future.

Here are more disputes at DRN concerning Azerbaijan and Armenia:

Opening a Case

Some of the arbitrators asked me to open the DRN case request for mediation, before they decided whether to open a third arbitration case on Armenia and Azerbaijan. I opened the case and began mediation, stating what the ground rules were for mediation, and asking the parties to state briefly what the article content issues were. The content issues included questions about thirteen sources. Normally questions about sources are about whether they are reliable, but, in this dispute, they were more about whether the sources were neutral. (Perhaps our policies and guidelines on sources need to be clarified to recognize that source reliability and source neutrality are different considerations but are both important.) The sources were listed in an inquiry at the reliable source noticeboard. When presumably neutral volunteers at RSN offered their opinions as to the sources, some of the editors disagreed at RSN. At this point, it appeared that this dispute was not one that could be readily resolved at DRN, and I closed it as failed.

Armenia and Azerbaijan has already been determined to be a contentious topic. Like several other contentious topics, it is subject to battleground editing because the area on the Earth has been a real battleground, in this case, for a century. The community has not been able to resolve disputes in this area effectively. Mediation at DRN is one of the community dispute resolution mechanisms that is not effective (because editors will not accept third-party advice as to neutrality of sources).

When ArbCom opens a third case on this contentious topic, it should ask at least two questions. First, are there any particular editors who are tendentious in this area, and who should be topic-banned? Second, should any new or modified enforcement procedures be adopted? ArbCom should open a third case in this area. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia-Azerbaijan 2: Arbitrator views and discussion[edit]

I have not read over the AE discussions that prompted this, but I think brief summaries answering the following would be helpful:
- Why are the current tools available under AA2 insufficient to deal with problems in the topic area?
- What tools can ArbCom add to the AE toolkit for AA2 to help deal with the disruption?
- Do the referring AE admins have any specific suggestions or requests of us beyond "open a new case"?
I recognize that the request is "open a full case to examine the issues" but I would prefer to have some idea of problems and desired outcomes up front. GeneralNotability (talk) 23:52, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Callanecc. My thoughts, now that I've had a chance to read the AE thread: when dealing with topic areas that are subject to so much real-world controversy, I think most of the value of an ArbCom case comes from the powers delegated to admins and the community (mostly DS/CT, but there's other remedies out there). ArbCom can hand out some TBANs, IBANs, or plain old sitebans, warn people, whatever, but the problem isn't with specific editors, it's with Wikipedia being a front in a wider ideological battle. You suggest that we look at the long-term conduct of various editors and do, for lack of a better phrase, a clean-out, but to me that doesn't really solve the problem. If there are editors with conduct problems, an arb case can deal with them, but that doesn't do anything about the next group of disruptive editors who wade into the topic area, and we're just setting ourselves up to have to do more of these cases. If we need to have AA3, we can have AA3, but I want to understand how this will differ from AA2 and what we can do in order to prevent us from having to do AA4.

And when I was about ready to hit post, Rosguill came along. Thank you - that helps me see the problem a little better, and the off-wiki campaigning concerns are certainly something that is in our court. GeneralNotability (talk) 02:02, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From the purely procedural standpoint, my impression is that we are not (quite) yet operating in the blessed land of contentious topics. L235 (as a drafter and implementer)? I remain interested in this discussion however, especially answers regarding other tools. Izno (talk) 23:57, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The essence seems to be that "ZaniGiovanni has accused various other editors active in AA of playing an active role in organizing this [...off-wiki campaign to POV-push in favor of Turkish viewpoints affecting AA and other topics of interest to aggrieved Turkish nationalists...] and other pro-Azerbaijan or pro-Turkey POV campaigns. I think an ArbCom case is necessary in order to evaluate the evidence that ZG has collected". That seems to be an ArbCom issue as it looks involved and messy, and has off-Wiki aspects that may involve private evidence. I am, though, unclear on the procedure used - why has this come through as an amendment rather than a case request? It looks like a case request, though without a clear list of the unusual suspects. The people named are not those who we will be looking at, but those who wish to bring the case. Is the intention that we reopen the 2007 case, or start a new one? SilkTork (talk) 02:34, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responses. I've noted the wording of the new CT procedure and the discussion leading to this request - is the understanding/intention of the new procedure that case requests (not just enforcement requests) should come to ArbCom via ARCA? As we are trialling the new procedures, some feedback on this part of the procedure would be useful. My feeling is that where there is enough information for a case to be properly considered, it might make more sense to go straight to that, with appropriate evidence provided, rather than a request via ARCA to make a case request. A consensus of AE admins would still make sense, so that the request is not thrown back.

Meanwhile, where do we go from here? ECP has been agreed, so is a case to examine the allegations of off-Wiki campaigning enough? There's the suggestion that Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 is not working; do we need to adjust it to prevent future campaigning so we are not playing whack-a-troll? Are we being asked to do two things? Both open a case to examine the campaigning, and refine the restrictions and procedures to help AE admins keep the topic area clean? I suspect that we need to do both, and that they may or may not be complementary. I think my preference would be to treat them separately. Open a case specifically into the allegations (not AA3, but perhaps AA off-Wiki campaigning). And hold a discussion here on ARCA with AE admins as to how AA2 can be improved. SilkTork (talk) 13:04, 6 January 2023 (UTC) SilkTork (talk) 13:04, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou ZaniGiovanni, your email has been received. SilkTork (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou Robert McClenon - noted that the DRN has failed, and that there is an ongoing discussion at RSN. SilkTork (talk) 11:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accept I think we should open a Review of AA2 or a new case called AA3 to examine these issues. --In actu (Guerillero) ^{Parlez Moi} 07:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
General Notability: I do think there is value in ArbCom's ability to do a comprehensive look at a topic area and apportion appropriate responsibility, regardless of whether there is a need for new sanctions. Also, obviously, in this case we have ARCA request above that has been sitting there from one AE admin that the committee take over the community's new ECR.
I would be reclutant to do that as it stands, but am open to doing it as part of a case. That said Callanecc, Rosguill, El C, and Seraphimblade I'm a bit reluctant to join Guerillero is moving to accept without some idea of who the parties might be. I think of the IRANPOL case here, where we had some parties when we started the case and then added parties during the case. That's fine. But the Committee, and editors, having some sense of who the parties might be besides ZaniGiovanni feels necessary to establish what has been stated. Could other parties or AE threads be submitted at this point? Bottomline I'm inclined to say we need AA3 - knowing that this will be a hard case to untangle - but I don't think we're quite ready to do so just yet. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:53, 6 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Callanecc (and others) the issue is that at some point ArbCom needs editors who are willing to compile evidence for a case to work. It's possible that ZaniGiovanni and the editors he named would be sufficient as parties to start a case. I admit to some trepidation here. We have a whole bunch of AE admins telling us there is a problem and so I believe that we do have a problem. But we also have a paucity of evidence beyond what Zani has put together about offwiki coordination. So if ArbCom opens a case, I worry that the outcome is going to be disappointing to those AE admins because without evidence the case will flop. So we can certainly do a longer evidence period to allow parties to be added in the case - we structured our last case like this even - but ArbCom can't do the work to gather evidence, it can only do the work to judge it. And I'd prefer to move forward with confidence that the community stands ready to do its part in an ArbCom case rather than a leap of faith. But as it stands now I feel like maybe all we can judge is ZaniGiovanni vs Abrvagl. If that's all the ArbCom case addressed would it be sufficient? Barkeep49 (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Abrvagl and ZaniGiovanni a general note of expectations while in an Arbitration Committee proceeding (including this one): parties who are in conflict with each other (like you two) are advised not to directly address each other, though providing evidence is fine. Additionally when making any statement of fact, but in particular when alleging wrongdoing by a specific editor, it is expected that this be supported by evidence in the form of diffs. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ZaniGiovanni the decision to accept a case or not is still being decided. A majority of arbs will have to vote to accept the case and so far 2 have done so. If you have private evidence ready, you are welcome to submit it now to the committee. By default the committee does not accept offwiki evidence and so the first decision will be whether or not this qualifies for an exception. You can also wait until the decision is made to open a case as compiling evidence can be time consuming. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon speaking for myself, I'd be inclined to say "Yes open the DRN" and for us to put the case on hold while you did so. I think it unfair to expect people to participate in DRN and a case at the same time and as Callanecc points out, the results of the mediation would be informative about the need for the case and if there continues to be a need what shape it should take. This would not stop us from investigating or otherwise addressing the private evidence sent to us (which I need to review more fully before having opinions about). Barkeep49 (talk) 15:25, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of a mind to let the DRN finish here before we open a case. I'd further add that the lack of parties here is a big issue for me; unless we have some more clear parties I'm not so sure this case will achieve anything. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:59, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]