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Wikipedia:Osmosis/Issues

User talk:Jimbo Wales#Osmosis: Wikipedia medical articles hijacked by paid editors working for private foundation

I see that, for medical articles, Wikipedia is no longer primarily a collaboratively edited text & image encyclopaedia, but a platform for documentaries created by a private third party. Videos which Wikipedians have no ability to edit, nor our readers any ability to verify facts against sources. This is not Wikipedia. -- Colin°^Talk 11:06, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

while I partly agree w/ your assessment, what similiar quality of videos do we have that is comparable w/ [19]?--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:59, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a volunteer-created collaboratively-written encyclopaedia. Their quality is a concern, actually, not a feature. If I want to watch a program on epilepsy, I'll turn on the BBC. If my attention span on the subject only reaches 8 minutes, then I guess there is YouTube. What part of these videos fits in any way whatsoever with Wikipedia? It is educational and has a free licence, so Commons can host it. But it doesn't belong here. I created WP:MEDRS so editors could work together on creating articles with the highest quality sources. Now we have one editor adding and edit warring unsourced videos into all our major medical articles. I ask myself what was the point of WP:MEDR if it can be ignored when the content is a video rather than text.

For the YouTube generation, this is now Wikipedia: unsourced content brought to you by a billionaire's private foundation. -- Colin°^Talk 12:14, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, we need to review each on on its merits, and errors (if found) need to be pointed out to the creator. I must say, I thought watermarks were not allowed on images, in which case the intro with the name cant remain. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:26, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Cas Liber, I don't think this is a "case by case" issue. The problems are fundamental. The topic of a Wikipedia article has been produced in video format, hosted here and embedded in the lead of 300 of our medical articles. This content is not collaboratively editable and does not conform to any of Wikipedia's fundamental polices or guidelines. I have now found three articles where Doc James edit wars to retain these videos when editors find problems, and I have no doubt there are many more. I'm not surprised by this because I have not found Doc James capable of collaborative editing, but these videos take that to the extreme. Since when did fixing issues on Wikipedia require "pointing out to the creator" and waiting for them to get around to re-doing a video. This is a wiki. I'm supposed to be able to change it. Quickly. This is article content WP:OWNED by Osmosis and forced upon us by Doc James. Additionally, is anyone here happy that WP:MEDRS doesn't apply? The fundamental for Wikipedia use by students, journalists, etc should be that we provide sources so they can check the facts and jump off to other professional publications where they can read more. This is not possible in an "article-as-as-video". This stuff belongs on YouTube.

Cas, would you be happy if someone came along to one of your featured articles, and inserted a bold paragraph in the lead. It begins with "Content created by Osmosis", contains several factual errors, and ends with Facebook and Twitter links to Osmosis. When you press the Edit button to revise it, you are told to fill in a form and your complaint will be forward to Osmosis for consideration. Meanwhile you are unable to remove or revise it. That's what we have here. It is "content" and our content and behavioural policies must apply. I think all of it should be removed from WP. Editors may link to it if they find it meets our WP:EL policy. -- Colin°^Talk 13:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

You raise some valid points but I am unhappy with your approach. You talk about Doc James being uncooperative, but you are insisting that your solution be implemented immediately regardless of the views of other editors. It seems to me that there is a possibility of a productive discussion that reaches a consensus. (My own view is that I would like to know more about this. Having worked on a lot of neuroscience articles, I understand very well how valuable media is and how difficult it is to get media that we can use at all, so I'm afraid that applying a strict MEDRS approach will simply result in us having nothing but text in our articles.) Looie496 (talk) 13:58, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Where have I "insist[ed] that [my] solution be implemented immediately"? I have started a discussion. Unlike some here, I'm not edit warring on any articles. Looie496, which part of "collaboratively edited" is not important aspect of Wikipedia to you? This isn't a animation clip of some neurons firing. It is the entire article topic in video format. Written by a paid employee of private foundation. I'm all for short video clips. They can be individually sourced if they make any claims or are inserted into an article in a way that makes a claim. And they can be replaced just like photos and other static images. An entire 10 minute documentary that covers the whole article topic and yet obeys none of the rules of Wikipedia is not appropriate. -- Colin°^Talk 14:14, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Looie496: I have broad concerns about the direction WP:MED has taken in recent years, and this is a very good example of the other, similar problems. For a good view of history, I recommend that everyone reading today click on the History tab at WP:MEDRS, and go to the first, oldest entries. This project seems to have lost its way since the time we fought so hard for quality sourcing in health and bio medical content. Editing for the overall medical integrity of our articles has been replaced by three competing concerns: translating leads, building some little box thingie to spread our increasingly outdated content, and installing videos that are against the very core of everything we accomplished with MEDRS. We used to work beyond leads of articles; have we given up? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

• It would be fine to add a link to their YouTube videos under External links, but embedding them into articles means we are offering free advertising to a company that is selling these videos to medical students. There are free videos and then there is Osmosis Prime at $9–$18 a month. Clearly having the free videos embedded in high-traffic Wikipedia articles means more people might sign up for Osmosis Prime. According to Osmosis's terms of use, the company behind it is Knowledge Diffusion Inc., 571 Mather Mail Center Cambridge, MA 02138 (see Bloomberg).

I've already seen two cases of volunteer editors explaining at length what is wrong with a video, and either the company rep or Doc James saying the video will be updated. This is the worst aspect of paid editing: that unpaid volunteers end up doing their work for them. Doc James and Ocaasi, can you say how this came to happen and what the role of the WMF was? SarahSV ^(talk) 14:27, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi @SlimVirgin:. WMF played only an initial role in this. We fielded the request from our partnerships team who had been contacted by Osmosis. I set up an initial meeting. From there it was a handoff to Wiki Project Med Foundation, and I was acting in my capacity as a member of Wiki Project Med Foundation where I was previously the outreach coordinator and a board member. I documented our plan here Wikipedia:Osmosis, laying out what was intended on a public page. That was the entirety of my role; the rest was handled by several members of Wiki Project Med Foundatin. Cheers, Jake Ocaasi ^{t | c} 16:29, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jake, thanks for the reply. Because you created Wikipedia:Osmosis with your WMF account, I assumed the WMF was involved. SarahSV ^(talk) 17:40, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

SV, I am having problems with them even as an External link. They raise concerns for me with respect to verifiability and reliability, and in the medical case, are quite at odds with MEDRS (which we would not likely have today were it not for Colin's insight and incisive editing). These people are creating videos without the knowledge of the recent highest quality sources we require in medicine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:17, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Sandy, I should have said that they might be okay as External links, but not if there are sourcing and accuracy issues. Allowing a private company to host its own material within the body of articles is an odd thing to have done, especially when it's in the business of selling paid versions of the videos, so I'd like to know how this came about. SarahSV ^(talk) 15:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree they are better in EL, based on what I've seen. If they are seriously outdated, then they should be removed until they have been updated. On most topics there is a ton of serious medical vids that could be used. Having just watched an Osmosis one for the full 10 minutes, on PanNETs (not yet linked from the article, it had a clear if slow-moving explanation of what the pancreas does, and where tumours can start, but only super-brief bits on diagnosis and treatment. In my usual area of art history, we have large numbers of 4-5 minute videos from Khan Academy embedded in articles, which I'm fine with. The video is obviously helpful, they use decent academic art historians, and being out of date is not a serious issue. Actually many medical articles would benefit from a curated group of say 3-4 video links in EL. I don't at all like the DMOZ/now Curlie links that is all many articles have in EL - I think most have not been properly updated for years, and they are wildly US-centric. There is a lot of excellent stuff on You Tube, but also a lot of mediocre stuff by doctors, and of course much pure crap/fringe. Johnbod (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I see it was discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine/Archive 76#Videos in December 2015. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:31, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) There are some valid concerns being raised here but the sloppiness and cow-having in this thread is not conducive to working anything out. Jytdog (talk) 16:35, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

You'll have to translate "cow-having ". Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

have a cow, verb. cow-having = nominalization. Jytdog (talk) 16:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, not known in UK. We have kittens. Johnbod (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

SlimVirgin good on you for finally going and finding the original discussion. It has been discussed other times as well as this search shows. Jytdog (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

And at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:48, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Currently travelling. So will comment in full in a bit. A few points, the videos are under an open license. Readers have requested videos for a long time. The scripts for the videos are posted for comments by our community before they are produced. The group will make updates and corrections based on feedback. References are previded. Might be good to have refs by page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:13, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

reset

• (edit conflict) As I understand it the "unmet need" being addressed here is video content that is appropriately licensed and good quality. Along with more and more users accessing WP via mobile (which has led us to put more work into ensuring that first sentences are tight and not cluttered) another thing that is happening is that more and more readers want video content (this was discussed a bunch in the movement strategy discussion).

I look at the video thing with some askance and have not engaged with it - I work on text, exclusively. A-V content is never going to be editable by dinosaurs like me (and apparently, like Colin) - we will need good collaborators to work with, on creating and updating such content, where we have it.

But as I understand it, the desire here was/is to meet that stated "unmet need" of our users -- people who want knowledge. That is kind of the baseline that in my view this discussion should start from.

With that in mind, it is my understanding that per open.osmosis.org the for-profit company has made a ton of videos available under the CC 4/0 license, with funding from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

That's a good thing.

That is also advertising for the for-profit company.

The question as always with these things, is where in the line between what helps us meet our mission and what is too much helping the company with advertising?

The same kind of issue arises with many collaborations - the Cochrane people sometimes overcite Cochrane, WiRs sometimes end up promoting their host institution. These are not simple issues.

If we keep the osmosis videos (and I am not opposed to keeping them) I think there are some things that could be done to make them less advertising-y, like getting rid of the social media links. I think it is OK that they would be named as creators at the end. A link to their website there would be OK too, I ~think~. Jytdog (talk) 17:14, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

So why not just add links to videos as ELs? Well one is that this does not promote OA licenses. Note Khan videos are not under an OA license. Second is that these ELs do not end up in offline versions of Wikipedia. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:24, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

This is not okay, because they are using the free videos to get people to buy Osmosis Prime. The free videos are on YouTube (under the standard YouTube licence), and the pitch is "if you do like those videos, you should definitely try out OsmosisPrime". If we want videos so badly that we're willing to hand over free advertising space inside articles, I'm sure the pharmaceutical industry (or really anyone) would happily produce high-quality "free" videos in exchange for being allowed to advertise. SarahSV ^(talk) 17:32, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

No they are not using the free videos to get people to buy Osmosis Prime. The videos are useful to many independent of other ways they raise money (such as providing quizes) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:15, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

To be clear the cc 4.0 videos are on the commons, not on youtube. we are not linking to the youtube videos. Bringing in the youtube postings is not helpful and distracting. Jytdog (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

The YouTube links are relevant because you can see there that the free videos are offered as a taster to encourage people to buy Osmosis Prime. It's therefore important to them to get eyes on those free videos, and Wikipedia is ideal for that purpose. As part of the arrangement with Wikipedia, they asked to be placed in the first section of articles (above the fold): "James and other medical editors will place the videos in the first sections of articles (but below the infobox) as appropriate." [20]

Re: Knowledge Diffusion Inc., they were given a $250,000 grant in January 2017: "In collaboration with WikiProject Medicine and the UCSF-UCB Joint Masters Program, Osmosis will undertake a 12-month pilot project ..." [21] $100,000 from TEDCO in December 2017. [22][23] In January 2018 Coverys, the insurance provider, announced that it was investing in them: "To date, Osmosis has focused on medical students but is working to gain traction with a number of additional healthcare provider segments including nursing, physician assistants, pharmacy, dentistry and others." [24]

Pinging some editors interested in WP:PAID: @Smallbones, Coretheapple, Kudpung, and TonyBallioni: SarahSV ^(talk) 21:42, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I acknowledged above that they get advertising from it; that is basic business - we don't need any "proof" of that; the youtube videos are indeed completely irrelevant and a distraction. We are not linking to them.

Any partner with whom we collaborate, from the British Museum to Cochrane, gets exposure through those collaborations.

There are obvious problems with execution of this specific collaboration. That does not mean the whole thing is Evil.

Doc James is generally very, very leery of collaborations with businesses and as he is one who has been most involved in this, I am withholding judgement until he has a chance to weigh in with more background. Maybe we will keep them and fix them; maybe we will get rid of them. The drama is premature and unhelpful. Jytdog (talk) 22:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

It's hardly premature; this was set up in December 2015. What happened here is that someone decided it was okay to let a for-profit company effectively add a few unsourced paragraphs to medical articles—paragraphs not written by specialists and not capable of being edited—topped and tailed with their company logo. And hard to work with because you have to sit through a whole video. And when people tried to remove them because they contained mistakes (or disputed material), they were reverted and told to seek consensus, even though there was no consensus to add them in the first place. See this revision for apparent WMF involvement. That's the sort of thing you were railing against when it came to Wikidata. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:16, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

What is premature is the judgement embedded in the section header and the part above the break, and the framing you, Colin, and SandyGeorgia have put on this, that the collaboration is fundamentally evil. I set up this sub-section as a "reset" to try to have a calm discussion.

We may decide that the existing videos are too promotional for the collaboration partner and should come down. That is one issue. (I lean that way btw)

Whether the whole collaboration is unworkable is a separate issue. That is a larger discussion and we don't have the background from Doc James to understand that yet; that part is premature to actually figure out now. It may well be that the Osmosis folks represented that they were going to set up a separate nonprofit to carry this stuff and never did. It may be that the execution turned out different than what was planned. It may be that we should walk away from this -- it may be that we can reset it. There is a lot to discuss and it isn't cut and dry.

A collaboration partner willing and able to make high quality, cc 4.0 licensed video is not a potato to be thrown out the window in some mad rush to judgement spurred by someone acting like our house is burning down. Jytdog (talk) 22:31, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: interesting (and troubling) info you are producing. Thanks for taking the time. I am also wondering about the Wiki Project Med Foundation role relative to WMF.[25] I do not know how the relationships are set up, but I would think that WMF would not want anyone serving in any WMF capacity to participate in creating content on medical articles, or determining what goes in them. It has immunity as an internet service provider that hosts user-generated content; as such, it is typically concerned that neither it nor its employees run the risk of creating medical content which could be wrong, misleading, or incomplete. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:38, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Another perennial ax-grinding issue. This discussion is hopeless. Jytdog (talk) 22:46, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Jyt, you are generating the appearance that anything you disagree with is ax-grinding. No matter how many people chime in to say they see the problem. And yet, you do not seem to see how this approach stalls WP:MED, how that has affected content, and how the stalling leads to fallout at places like Jimbo talk. What I am seeing lately in here is that we just can't talk about, and work on, content anymore. I no longer even consider bringing my requests for help on articles to this talk page. I just don't see a content focus anymore. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia, I was wondering about that too. Jake, would you mind telling us whatever you know about this? You created Wikipedia:Osmosis in December 2015 with your WMF account, and listed on the page the five people who were involved: James Heilman, representing WikiProject Med Foundation; Rishi and Kyle from Osmosis; Sylvia Ventura, WMF Strategic Partnerships, and Jake Orlowitz, WMF Community Engagement. That does make it look like a Wikimedia Foundation–Osmosis–WikiProject Med Foundation project. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, you also noted above the 4th point, "James and other medical editors will place the videos in the first sections of articles (but below the infobox) as appropriate." How did the idea of placing videos below inboxes come about, in terms of standard layout? Do none of our MOS guidelines matter anymore, and why did we allow an external organization, making money off of this, a preferential place in Wikipedia articles? Who makes decisions of this nature? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:11, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Looking at the page Wikipedia:Osmosis posted by Jake (User:Ocaasi), I see issues from point 3 onwards ...

1. Jake will document the pilot plan (this page)
2. James will introduce this concept and sample videos to Wiki Project Medicine
3. WikiProject Medicine will decide if the video content, quality, and type is appropriate for a pilot on 10-50 articles.
4. James will work with Rishi to identity most-needed videos for popular articles (use mobile pageview data and v:1.0 tool)
5. Kyle and Tanner will upload the videos to commons using a compatible format with complete metadata and useful descriptions
6. Fil will assist Kyle in uploading translated subtitles to videos on commons, and place the videos in the first sections of non-English articles (but below the infobox) as appropriate
7. James and other medical editors will place the videos in the first sections of articles (but below the infobox) as appropriate
8. Osmosis will track video views and traffic and report back on changes
9. Additionally, Osmosis will add an edit/comment link to their internal teaching tools which incorporate embedded Wikipedia content
10. Future opportunities may explore using Osmosis learning tools (flash cards/quizzes)

Starting with point 3, what I see in archived discussions are samples of the problems now being revealed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:41, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that was all in 2015. The vids put up for editor review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis have mostly not received any, and where they did there is no indication that comments were acted on to change anything. No sign of "Osmosis will track video views and traffic and report back on changes" there - has that happened? On a project I did with the Metropolitan Museum of Art their stats often showed the bulk of their views for a particular item coming via WP links. Johnbod (talk) 17:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

That is a good point about the lack of review of the content and lack of response when there were reviews. We have not been keeping up with that. (good on User:soupvector for having done some of that) Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

That editing did not feel particularly collaborative. I urged that the script editing be done in WP space so that it would be "our" content to retain/reuse as desired, to no avail. — soupvector (talk) 21:08, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

That is a useful datapoint, yes. A collaboration partner that is not responsive, is not optimal. Jytdog (talk) 22:06, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Above User:Doc James claims "more and more readers want video content". I see from the linked page that it actually includes my video of a plasma globe! Does it actually say in the link that our readers don't want to read articles, they want the article as a video instead? Or that they'd like our text articles to have more videos for visual content. You see, unlike The Blue Planet nature documentaries, Epilepsy is not a visual topic. You can illustrate a few things like neurons firing or a person having a seizure with a short video clip. But fundamentally, readers come to Wikipedia to read sourced articles on topics. They don't come to spend 10 minutes watching a YouTube video instead, because, well, because YouTube. Is this actually WMF policy now, to just forget collaboratively editing text by volunteers, adding sources, and just get some billionaire foundation to create article videos instead? Please let me know if it is, so I can shift my talk page from "semi-retired" to "fully-retired". -- Colin°^Talk 21:38, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

When I researched subjects finding out about pancreatic cancer online, some did look at videos, but these were mostly shortish "my story" ones by patients. The prominence the medical research charities and NHS etc. give these shows that they appeal to many. Some did look at "a doctor explains" ones though. Johnbod (talk) 00:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I will dare a response here. You have come at this like a bull in a china shop. I linked above to the WMF strategy effort, which includes surveys showing that our userbase wants video content. That is a thing.

My sense is that videos are intended to serve as an AV version of the WP:LEAD. One can, in good faith, view that as useful or not. It is kind of an interesting idea in my view.

There are other issues about collaborations generally that arise here.

There are also issues about the specific execution - the links and logos on the videos, whether we have carried our weight in reviewing them, and whether Osmosis has been responsive when changes were requested.

And the issue of who has the skills to edit something is quite distinct from whether people can edit them. The videos are cc licensed so anybody can make a derivative work of them, who has the skills and software. I cannot edit lua templates, but that doesn't mean that templates in lua are unWikipedian. I just don't have the skills. Other people do.

Those are all things that rational people can discuss. Running from forum to forum (I think you are up to 4 now) screaming bloody murder is not rational nor much "grown up" (à propos your remark here) Jytdog (talk) 21:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Did anyone say we should stop providing text content? Nope not once, not ever.

Do we have data on viewership? Yes we do, at least on Wikipedia / Commons. Some data is here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Medical/health related editing

• edit conflict

There are two issues here: One, that an aspect of WP editing is being supported monetarily by a wealthy foundation. Second, and the one I want to comment further on is that medical/ health related articles have real world consequences. All content in health related articles must be verifiably and reliably sourced. As well, and because of that editors must be able to edit the content. I have long felt that health related articles should be edited by experts and then locked. But then who are the experts one wonders. Second to that, if not locked readers should be welcomed with an article tag telling them the article can be edited by anyone. Now adding video content that is not sourced and that cannot be edited is a further step in the direction of content that is "dangerous". While this problem could extend to all articles there is an aspect of danger present when dealing with MEDRS.

There is an issue underpinning much of this problem and that is a desire to have articles so accurate that can be safely used by physicians and medical students. It scares me to think medical students and physicians could be using articles which can be edited by anyone, anyone at all, even 11 year olds. No one can watch all of these article all of the time...and all that means.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:25, 26 March 2018 (UTC))

@Littleolive oil: Yes (as you supported back then). This is another discussion, so I hope you don't mind the new break (please change it to a title of your choice). No one should be trying to watch every medical article on Wikipedia; a prominent disclaimer would still help. And I am pretty sure the number of active medical content editors has declined since the problem was first raised at RFC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:43, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

No problem at all in separating this out. And thank you. I think there is a bottom line, which is my point on this, to which all other arguments must take second place and that is the articles must be as accurate as is humanly possible. That means videos which are not editable, verifiable or reliable cannot be used. Everything else is layered on top of that. I'm writing the obvious but sometimes the obvious gets lost in the complex, and sometimes, once the obvious is taken care of everything else falls into place.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:56, 26 March 2018 (UTC))

utterly dead, beat to death, smitheereened issue. for crying out loud. I am logging out for today, i have had it. Jytdog (talk) 22:46, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Jyt, this is looking much too personal for you. Could you allow any discussion to proceed on its merits? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:54, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

As a proof of concept, I've just edited File:Abscesses.webm and uploaded a new version File:Abscesses 1.webm, which is resized to 720p (to reduce the file size for Wikipedia use) and has the opening and closing credits removed, although I've left the "Open Osmosis" logo at the end. It's not a difficult job to do in Open Shot Video Editor (FOSS), nor did it take more than about 15 minutes. I understand that I couldn't correct any factual errors, but it may assuage some of our concerns about promotion. I also expect that Osmosis may not be too pleased (or maybe they won't worry), but their videos are released under CC-BY-SA 4.0 and are therefore "fair game" from that perspective. I can see that re-doing 300 videos would not be a trivial task, but we do have crowd-sourcing on our side. --RexxS (talk) 01:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

User:RexxS please see Commons:Watermarks. In particular the legal issues wrt removal of "copyright management information" (such as the title, author's name, copyright notice, etc.) Moving them to the file description page may not be viewed as sufficient by some, as the file still becomes more able to be copied elsewhere and then without the title, organisation name, copyright notice, etc, etc. The WMF advice is that "due to this lack of clarity, individual editors who are considering removing watermarks "should seriously consider the legal issues involved and consider consulting an attorney before doing so"". In other words, don't do this without explicit written permission from the copyright holder. Users should also be aware of the legal requirements in the CC licence wrt documenting changes made. For Wiki text this is done for you in the file history. For media, you have to do it explicitly on the file-description page. "shortened by 24 sec and resized to 720p for use in Wikipedias" is probably not sufficient unless you explain what you cropped out. -- Colin°^Talk 08:50, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Colin I think you need to read c:Commons:Watermarks and understand that it has no more standing than an essay. Nevertheless, it is clear there that promotional watermarks are unacceptable and should be removed. I'm afraid that the rest of what you wrote is simply scare-mongering (especially as the DCMA has no standing where I live). To be specific, you misquote the CC BY-SA 4.0 license, This what it actually says:

You are free to ... remix, transform, and build upon the material for any purpose ... Under the following terms: You must give appropriate credit, provide a link to the license, and indicate if changes were made.

It defines "appropriate credit" as "the name of the creator and attribution parties, a copyright notice, a license notice, a disclaimer notice, and a link to the material" and "indicate if changes were made" as "indicate if you modified the material and retain an indication of previous modifications". In addition it's obvious that your concern about future illegal adaptations cannot restrain an editor from creating legal derivatives that comply with the CC-BY-SA 4.0 licence: no-one can be held responsible for future misuse by others, otherwise no adaptation would ever be possible. My adaptation meets every condition of the licence – in fact it goes beyond what is required: I am only required to indicate if I made changes; there is no requirement to document what the changes were. Since I have not replaced the original, but have linked to it on the file description page, anyone can compare the files freely. --RexxS (talk) 10:55, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Are you a lawyer, Rexxs? Really, you can do what you like because fundamentally the only person at legal risk when you upload content is you. But please don't offer legal advice or suggest other editors are safe to remove "copyright management information" from videos. Commons editors have largely stopped doing this. We're volunteers and nobody has your back. It isn't worth the risk. -- Colin°^Talk 11:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

We always get the scare of "are you a lawyer?" don't we? Well, let's say I am (or was, or my daughter is), does that alter your position? No, I thought not. Please stop trying to frighten people away from legitimately editing content that is freely licensed, simply because you want no solution other than complete removal. Of course everybody is free to remove promotional watermarking; this isn't "copyright management information", it's merely an advert. If you're so sure that my adaptation is a breach of copyright, feel free to go ahead and nominate it for deletion on Commons - they take copyright very seriously there - and see where that gets you. Until then, you need to stop trying to patronise other adults who are perfectly capable of reading a licence. --RexxS (talk) 12:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

User:RexxS we can simply request that they do this going forwards. And ask them to update all the ones going back.

Per a wealthy foundation, I do not get it, what is wrong with the creation of content being supported monetarily? The NIH allows some of their staff to edit Wikipedia on staff time. Do we now have members of this project who are going to decry that? Are we out to end the existence of WiRs?

The videos ARE being produced based on reliable sources and by experts. Yes I realize that you prefer academic to more easily accessible language. Academics do not need us though. And we do a greater good by using accessible language. I have been in disputes with a few people over this including SV and Sandy.

Here are the sources for this video.[26] Sources ARE provided if you look / ask.

The main page of Wikipedia announces "the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit". We also have a disclaimer at the bottom. Sure some people want more.

How is the health of the medical community? I have been tracking that from 2013 to 2016. It appears to be fairly stable. Still trying to get numbers for 2017. Am likely going to hire someone to calculate the numbers as I do not have the technical skills to do so. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:36, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc, we need to move in a direction where there is recognition: a) they are commercial links, not even acceptable in External links; b) editors can remove them just like any other ELNO, without c) being responsible for making sure they fix their inaccurate content. You have an example as real as can be at Talk:Dementia with Lewy bodies. The consensus criteria is dated 2017 (and contains knowledge that pre-dates 2017). The video is 2018. Either they don't know how to do the research, or they don't understand the topic; they don't understand REM sleep behavior disorder, they don't understand the onset of symptoms in DLB, and they don't understand the different kinds of memory. It is not my job to help them make money-- I am a volunteer Wikipedia editor. My role is to delete content that doesn't meet our guideline and policy, and that is a disservice to our reader. How can we be expected to find the time to write articles, deal with trolls, and also educate these people so they can make money, and why should we? The DLB example is much too clear to be ignored, and we've now got about a half dozen others that we know of. It is pretty unlikely that most of their 299 videos do not have similar problems. Without a workable solution that recognizes how serious this is, an RFC to the broader community should be considered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:25, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Sandy,

1) The claims that they contain grave error is false. Even after I showed that they did not mis a core symptoms you persist. Yes they do not use the exact language you wish or the font you like. Yes they are written for a general audience. But that is who we are supposed to be writing for.

2) No they are not "commercial links". They are videos about medical topics released under a fully open license. This is exceedingly rare and in fact amazing.

3) With respect to REM sleep behavior disorder they state "symptoms: sleep disorder like sleep walking and talking in sleep" I also do not think we should use the exact technical language you want in the lead. Does that mean that they and I do not understand REM sleep behavior disorders? No, what it means is that we care more that Wikipedia's leads are accessible to people than that every complicated detail in it complete fullness ends up in the leads of our articles. Our leads and these videos are overviews. The body and sub articles are there for the full details.

4) My goal is to try to make our content accessible to a very large number of people. I do this in multiple ways a) by writing the leads in easy to understand language b) by working to provide video content for those who might have limited reading ability (through partnerships with Osmosis) Or simple prefer to learn by video c) by translation into other languages in collaboration with many folks both inside and outside Wikipedia d) by building offline apps in partnership with Kiwix e) by working with folks at Internet-in-a-Box to get Wikipedia's medical content out to those with no access to the Internet f) by improving our content here in collaboration with medical schools, schools of pharmacy, Cochrane, the NIH, the CDC, the World Health Organization, and other.

From what you write here and elsewhere maybe our goals are not compatible. I have discussed these goals at length here on this talk page for years. I have developed consensus for this goals both through discussion and by being bold. This has required countless hours of personal effort, with great personal and financial sacrifice. The efforts have been gradual over years. You have not joined these prior discussions. Now here you are criticizing all this work after being absent for so many years, without reviewing all the discussions that have come before. Apologies but this makes me deeply disappointed... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

James

1) I hope that, as a physician, you value precision in medical terminology. They are wrong. Not just in language. In timing of onset, and in distinction of types of memory and in the onset of that memory loss. They were wrong at Breastfeeding. Quick vs. sudden are significant terms in neurology-- they are wrong at Tic disorders. The answer to those, of you accusing me at WT:V of falsehoods are on my talk, but please, hear what others are trying to tell you.

2) They are making money off of the advertising that is driven to them thanks to us ... well, not all of us. If commercial is the wrong word for that, my apologies, but same thing.

3) REM sleep behavior disorder is not "sleep walking and sleep talking". You are aware as a physician that those are separate entities. RBD is dream enactment behavior during REM sleep. It can be as simple as flinching, flailing legs or arms-- no walking, no talking need be involved (although they may be). The description is inaccurate in ways that leads to misdiagnosis, so who are we educating, and why educate them incorrectly? That matters to us, right? We wouldn't do it in an article, so why a video? They Are Wrong. You are trained to value precision in medical description and terminology. They don't seem to be. I am surprised at you defending them.

4) Some of the direction here is driving inaccuracies into the leads of every article I see. This is not Simple Wikipedia. (A thought: why not have the translation project work off of simple Wikipedia, since that is the level they want?) Seeking the most dumbed-down sources and driving them into the lead of every article quite often has resulted in errors-- both blatant, and of significant nuance. Leads are summaries per Wikipedia guideline for a good reason.

I recognize and appreciate your personal sacrifice, dedication, and effort. It is indisputable. I do.

But. I ask that you listen to other editors, and realize some of these projects are costing us (us being WP:MED in terms of content guidelines we fought to gain long ago, that are now being undermined ... do you know what it is to have gotten MEDRS accepted as a guideline?? What other Project can claim a change as important as that one was? Why would we now defend poor content, because it is in videos?

The loss of Colin to medical editing was no small thing. Why do you think I have also been absent, Doc? Content is being degraded, and working on it is harder and harder, with less and less of a collaborative spirit. I merrily left behind the utterly inexcusable prostate suite to go work in an entirely different area, where an article badly need to be rebuilt from the ground up, knowing I could do it, not remotely expecting to hit this wall. Editing here is supposed to be fun, not driven by the commercial interests of outside projects. I would not be pointing out that two of the editors who were the first involved to bring this Project MEDRS are uncomfortable editing in this environment. Please, listen to others. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:32, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

1) "Quick" versus "rapid" are not exceedingly different. Yes the DSM5 refers to tics as rapid.

2) They are not making money off of us any different than say the Lancet or the BMJ.

3) They say "Sleep disorder" first. And than mention a couple possibilities. Many sources mention sleep walking during REM as one aspect of DLM.[27] And it is a classic one.

4) Are these videos perfect? No. Could they be improved sure. Is Osmosis will to collaborate definitely. Should the Osmosis 2 sec intro be trimmed? If we want we can, meh. Should we be deleting every video made by this group because one or two people do not like the font they use? No definitely not. Not without a clear consensus. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc your Lancet/BMJ analogy does not work on any level. We are putting videos with prominent advertising of a link to a source that hosts a commercial store with products for sale in the leads of articles, which our readers can't miss. Lancet/BMJ are in sources, at the bottom. Which readers may not even click on. And our readers aren't driven first to advertising when they click on a source-- they are driven first to the content of a journal article.

If an editor puts sleep walking incorrectly as text into an article to describe RBD, any other editor can instantly fix it. We cannot fix Osmosis errors, nor should we have to. We are not paid to edit for them, yet they make money off of being given a highly preferential position on Wikipedia.

It is curious that there was no consensus, either here or wiki-wide to breach so many content policies and guidelines with these videos, but now you want consensus to delete them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

There is nothing that when clicked on brings you to the site in question. This of course is unlike DOIs. When you click on these you are often brought to a page were you can pay for the article in question.

Yes I get it, you do not want to edit or work on videos. Others of us feel differently. And finally sleep walking is not incorrect. It is indeed a symptom of DLB.

Osmosis actually makes more money off of Youtube (they get more views there plus they get ad revenue). What they do allow by using an open license is for use to also have there videos which people can watch for free without ads on Wikipedia and in our offline compilations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I am very concerned by this statement "My goal is to try to make our content accessible to a very large number of people. I do this in multiple ways a) by writing the leads in easy to understand language b) by working to provide video content for those who might have limited reading ability (through partnerships with Osmosis) Or simple prefer to learn by video c) by translation into other languages in collaboration with many folks both inside and outside Wikipedia d) by building offline apps in partnership with Kiwix e) by working with folks at Internet-in-a-Box to get Wikipedia's medical content out to those with no access to the Internet"

These are perhaps goals of some in WikiMedia Foundation generally and some are goals for third parties (Kwix, Internet in a box) and some are goals for other Wikipedias (translation). The are not obviously and naturally goals for English Wikipedia, which is our primary purpose. This is a text-based hyperlinked encyclopaedia where we collaboratively edit text (and only text) to produce educational encyclopaedic content. We supplement these articles with images and other audio-visual clips, which reside on Commons, and are not collaboratively editable. If you have a mission to create educational videos, covering whole article topics, then that is not Wikipedia's mission. We are not YouTube. Go talk to WMF about creating a sister project WikiVideo. I have seen too many times Doc James pervert our article content to suit his pet projects, which are not aligned with English Wikipedia. Four years ago I saw him spend his time dumbing down our leads to baby language in the assumption that this made it easier to translate or with the idea that this was Simple English wikipedia, for those who find English hard to read. We saw him try to force one citation style template on us, in order to make copy/paste translation easier. We now see him claim these videos must be embedded into articles so that his offline app partnership can include the video. That's your partnership Doc James, your goal. When has the wider Wikipedia community agreed to have a commercial third party create article-videos embedded in the lead of our articles? Would you be happy to read political articles on Wikipedia created and sponsored by Fox News? Get a grip. -- Colin°^Talk 09:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Subject matter expertise

W.r.t Doc James's statement that "the videos ARE being produced based on reliable sources and by experts", I strongly disagree. There are many red herrings in this sprawling discussion but this issue of expertise is core to our mandate. The main writer of Osmosis's video on breastfeeding, Philip Boone, is a medical resident whose most relevant qualification is having graduated from medical school, a whopping two years before working for Osmosis.

My impression when I first saw this video was, "Wow, this guy is totally incompetent when it comes to breastfeeding. Your average La Leche League leader down the street knows more than he does." Reading his LinkedIn profile gave me no reassurance. (If anyone's wondering what kinds of qualifications make someone an expert in the medical specialty of breastfeeding, Ruth Lawrence's bio lists some.) I would be interested in seeing more profiles of Oasis's script writers - I suspect that hiring actual experts is not their business model. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:10, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

No not a medical student User:Clayoquot but a A resident in Pediatrics/Medical Genetics at Harvard. Also has a PhD.

Additionally the script was edited by an attending pediatrician at Stanford.[28] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I said he was a medical resident. I did not say he was a medical student. Doc James, please read more carefully. His PhD is in genetics which has no relevance to breastfeeding. It's interesting that the script was edited by an attending pediatrician, and such glaring errors still got through the review process. Hmmm. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes apologies misread. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

How are these not spam?

There are definitely issues surrounding the medical appropriateness of these videos, which others have brought up. There is even the philosophical question of Wikipedia having essentially "frozen" and practically unverifiable content. Putting that aside, as reasonable people may differ on those questions. There is one point where I can see no reasonable argument and that is the matter of hosting advertisements for an outside organization and from what I have seen these are straight up spam. Sure, they allegedly provide some good information but they exist to promote a company and sell subscriptions. Issues with medical content aside, these videos simply fail WP:NOTPROMO and, in their current form, are unacceptable for use on Wikipedia. Period. I sure would like to hear how anyone thought these were acceptable. Really, I am all ears. Do we now differentiate between good spam and bad spam? Anyway, my thought is that any discussion of the merits of these videos should probably take a back seat to this fundamental violation of Wikipedia core content policy. The simplest way to address this would be to edit each of the video files to remove the spam sections of the video. I have, however, read that these files are not editable? Is that the case? If so I assume that it is but a minor thing for those who arranged for these videos to ask Osmosis to provide the content without the advertisements and links. If Osmosis is not willing to do so then they are intended as spam and need to be removed for that reason. Long form video may have a place in Wikipedia's future but not as an advertising vehicle for an external organization. Jbh ^Talk 00:22, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

They can be edited, of course. See above. --RexxS (talk) 01:58, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

and RexxS example ameliorates the main problem ...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I mentioned the videos couldn't be edited based on this comment posted by Colin. I could be wrong. Apologies if so.(Littleolive oil (talk) 02:33, 27 March 2018 (UTC))

Well....they can be edited as long as by "edited" one only means "cut down". Practically speaking, it's extraordinarily difficult to make even minor changes or additions to the content of these videos. (Though removing the Osmosis logos and credit sequences would resolve one of the issues with this content: the violation of the spirit of WP:WATERMARK and MOS:CREDITS.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it would be extraordinarily difficult, and probably require expensive technology, to make changes or additions in the style of the original video. It would probably be quite hard even for Osmosis to do this because some of the original creators of the videos no longer work for the company. But hey, it wouldn't be too hard to splice in new content if we weren't trying to make it look consistent. A Wikipedian could, for instance, create a 60-second clip, in whatever tool and style they want, that summarizes the errors in the video and points out that the author of the video is a nonspecialist medical resident. And then that clip could be quite easily spliced into the start of the Osmosis video and re-uploaded. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

oh, I like the way you think, Clayoquot! Jbh, "I sure would like to hear how anyone thought these were acceptable." 'Tis a mystery. And I have pondered it. Fundamental violation of ... just about everything ... and no one even noticed for years (I have an excuse, I wasn't editing :)

Perhaps people have found creating content to be too hard, so are happy to outsource content they just manage? Perhaps with the overall decline in Wikipedia editing, no one is home anymore? Perhaps ... no one cares anymore? I really cannot understand how we got so far off track with this. I just wanted to work on a really badly outdated article, and hit this. We can't edit away the errors, and I can't understand why we would want to. Dementia with Lewy bodies had 100,000 hits on one day only this week (I can't figure out why), on March 21,[29] and the article was a wreck at that point. How many of those people said to heck with Wikipedia, and went first to this video? Our medical content has become a vehicle for someone else to make money, while we slave away like ninnies.

So, in the series from Ocaassi I re-posted above, Step 3 never happened. We could start with asking why that never happened, and why the project proceeded without that consensus, and even if it had happened, why anyone ever thought that WP:MED was a place where consensus could be generated to breach all manner of policy and guideline.

Or we could get on with figuring out how to get rid of the things. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Sandy, I'm pretty sure the 21 March spike was tangential to a bit of celebrity sensationalism here, rather than any organized effort. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@LeadSongDog, thanks! I did not think it was any organized effort, but I have been looking for what drove the spike. I'm not sure that particular article is it, although the event may be. Usually a spike that high is because some event happens where there is a direct link on the news source or webpage to the Wikipedia article, and I haven't been able to find anything like that. Another thing that happened on March 21 was an exciting new research discovery related to Parkinson's. Or perhaps a #MeToo site linked to us, per the Mindy thing. Anyway, I brought it up because I had barely begun work on that article on 21 March, and it was in pretty bad shape. Anyone coming to Wikipedia probably said WTH, and went for the video instead. I am now about halfway through improving the article, and picked up six new journal articles today when I was at the hospital. I wish it had had a 100,000 spike next week! Thanks again, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@LeadSongDog, oops, you're right-- now I see it-- it does link to us. Darn, what a missed opportunity to spread accurate updated info about DLB. Had I started a week earlier ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:32, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Malheureusement, there will always be another opportunity. Your effort isn't wasted. LeadSongDog come howl! 20:05, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I support Colin's position. There is no "case by case"--the issue here is an over-arching one and he is absolutely correct in his interpretation of consequences. I won't write at length here. Outriggr (talk) 04:28, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Some people (in fact many people) want video explanation. All the videos this group makes are going to be released under an open license so that we can potentially use them. All the ones we currently use are under an open license currently.

Yes they also have a subscription model for test questions from what I understand. If people are unhappy with the opening and closing credits they can be removed. Just because they produce other stuff that they offer under a subscription model does not mean that they stuff they offer under an open license is an "ad" for that subscription stuff. Their viewership via Youtube is greater than that via Wikipedia and they earn ad revenue there. Other medical video produces have declined to release there videos under an open license. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Some people (in fact many people) want to marry someone beautiful, become rich, have a family, die old in bed. None of this is justification for this material on Wikipedia. Go find another WMF project for this, a project that doens't care about collaborative editing by volunteers, who is happy to see paid editors, who only wants expert editors, and is happy to present jokey videos about serious diseases, written for American medical students, as in any way appropriate for a general international audience, which might actually consist, you know, of someone with the medical condition. -- Colin°^Talk 19:52, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Claims of COI

With respect to COI editing, the concerns mainly occur when the person producing the content in question have a COI with respect to the subject area in question. That is not the case in these examples. This is a red herring which distracts from the difficult work of actually dealing with serious COI issues. Osmosis do not manufacture a treatment for the condition in question. They are not paid by a PR agency or company that does.

Another examples is that the NIH does not have a COI when working on Wikipedia about PTSD. Osmosis does not have a COI when they produce a video about abscesses. If people are unhappy with the social media links I am sure they would be fine with removing them and because these videos are under an open license we can remove them ourselves.

The claims that there is a grave COI issue here is like arguing we should not use references to the Lancet as that advertising the Lancet or data from Cancer Research UK as that is an add to that charity. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:48, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Open-Osmosis are funded by a foundation created by the billionaire behind Jonhson & Johnson. As a private foundation, albeit one that on superficial examination appears to be a good cause, they can emphasise and censor whatever aspects they wish. Do they support abortion, promote abstinence from drink, encourage condoms for safe sex, support vaccination, deny global warming, accept the medical use of marijuana, promote equal education and opportunities for women, think AIDS is God's punishment to gay people, condone prostitution, think vitamin C is the answer to all heath problems, etc, etc, etc. No idea, but as a private foundation, they are totally entitled to believe and promote whatever nonsense they want, should they wish to. The same is not true of the NIH or Cancer Research UK. What we do know is that Osmosis is "A better way to learn", "A fully customized learning platform driven by data, science, and the technology of the future." and you can start your free trial here. :-) -- Colin°^Talk 07:56, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

This comparison is only smoke and deception.

• Suppose that, in some future, Wikipedia advertises for the Lancet. How many physicians would change their mind about subscribing to the Lancet (apart, may be, from cancelling their subscription) ?
• Suppose that, here and now, Wikipedia advertises for Osmosis. How many students will subscribe to Osmosis (despite the warning: never ever trust Wikipedia about human health, or any other critical topic) ?

Pldx1 (talk) 08:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand your two suggestions. Wikipedia does not "advertise" for anyone, and has no plans to. The degree to which the Osmosis videos are adverts or fremium content teasers for their paid subscription videos, is up for debate. If the Lancet were to recruit doctors to create content for Wikipedia I would also be concerned, as such content would be subject to the editorial focus of the Lancet and its publisher. This is why Wikipedia is fundamentally a volunteer created collaboratively edited project. I have no problem with commercially created images or short video clips such as an electron microscope image of cells or a chemical reaction. These single-topic media files are self-asserting -- editors can judge if they are what they say they are, and add or remove them if there is conflict. Entire article-topic videos are a different matter, where a narrator presents their own version of the article text spoken out loud, and offers their own personal opinion on what aspects of the topic to cover and avoid. It is quite notable that these clips were originally created for medical students -- the focus is all wrong for the general reader. So we have the editorial focus of Osmosis, not of Wikipedia. That is the very definition of "Conflict of Interest". And any complaints by editors on Wikipedia are met with edit warring by Doc James, and a possible promise of a future revised video, which it seems, does not often come. These are well documented facts. -- Colin°^Talk 09:00, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:Colin. Sure, you don't understand what I have written: an hypothesis is not a suggestion ! Reading again, may be ? Pldx1 (talk) 10:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Pldx1:, you say that Wikipedia does not "advertise" for anyone, and has no plans to, but that is a substantial part of what this is about. A (prominently placed) link to an external site that advertises. It has long been accepted that links to copyright infringing sites were themselves contributory copyright infringement. If WP accepted links to {political|medical|media|fashion|younameit} advertising, how much worse would the fake facts problem get? If the video has intrinsic value, clean out the advertising (it isn't CC-BY-SA-ND), host it on Commons, and give the same simple attribution as any other media there to satisfy CC-BY-SA. If it doesn't, then there's no hiding behind the offsite hosting: linking to it is contributory to advertising. LeadSongDog come howl! 14:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:LeadSongDog. The one who said Wikipedia does not "advertise" for anyone, and has no plans to was not me, but User:Colin. Moreover, it seems clear, at least for me, that Colin intent was to say Wikipedia should must not "advertise" for anyone, and has plans to continue to enforce it's "no advertisement" policy. Pldx1 (talk) 17:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC). Pldx1, you bad guy ! Yet another mess with must/should despite of RFC 2119 ! Pldx1 (talk) 18:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Ooops, sorry for the confusion. However, "should not" doesn't capture my intent. "Must not" is closer: it is practically an existential threat to WP. Does anyone seriously believe the WMF would survive as a commercial advertiser in direct competition to Google? It has to be avoided at all cost. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:27, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

• Colin, re: the "charitable foundation creating educational videos under a free license" mentioned on Jimmy's page, what is the charitable foundation?

Knowledge Diffusion, Inc. owns osmosis.org and open.osmosis.org. The osmosis.org terms of use say: "'Osmosis' means any website, mobile application, or Internet service under Knowledge Diffusion’s control, whether partial or otherwise, in connection with providing the services provided by Knowledge Diffusion, including osmose-it.com and freetext.org ... In an effort to promote the dissemination of open educational resources (OER), Osmosis.org has chosen to share much content under Creative Commons licenses using the banner 'Open Osmosis'."

The company has used Wikipedia to build brand recognition, which helps it to sell Osmosis Prime. Doc James, you're usually pretty savvy when it comes to this kind of thing. Other contributors to Wikipedia don't have this kind of courtesy extended to us—e.g. that our work will always appear above the fold, and that we get to add a link to a company of our choice next to our edits. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:16, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

User:SlimVirgin there was no agreement or requirement that the videos occur above the fold. As an overview of the topic in question I simple felt that often it fits well in the leads of articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc, that choice of wording was seen and edited by you, so it is understandable that the appearance of an agreement is there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

PS, also, considering point 7, would you mind if I take the video out of the infobox at tic disorder? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:44, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Yup I would mind as it is appropriate IMO. We have discussed the DSM5 wording in a bunch of places. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:22, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

SarahSV, according to https://open.osmosis.org/, "With support from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation". -- Colin°^Talk 17:09, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Colin: I think that means they got a grant from that foundation. But Jimmy said: "A charitable foundation creating educational videos under a free license is a good thing." That gives the impression that Osmosis is a charity, but it's a for-profit company. SarahSV ^(talk) 17:13, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

They were creating a non-profit arm when we discussed collaboration. Will follow up to verify that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Here's an example of how the association with Wikipedia helps their marketing (bold added):

Coverys, a leading medical professional liability insurance provider, announced today the investment in two separate organizations, Knowledge Diffusion, Inc. (Osmosis) and Pack Health, LLC (Pack Health). Both organizations provide innovative resources that help improve patient outcomes and support provider performance. Osmosis is a medical and health education technology company with headquarters in Baltimore, Maryland. It has an audience of more than 500,000 current and future clinicians between its advanced learning platform (http://www.osmosis.org) and popular YouTube channel (http://www.youtube.com/osmosis). Osmosis leverages its video learning platform to create and disseminate co-branded video content that is visually appealing, clear, and concise. It also has a strong partnership with Wikipedia, which features Osmosis content on health and medicine articles. To date, Osmosis has focused on medical students but is quickly gaining traction with a number of other critical healthcare provider segments including nursing, physician assistants, pharmacy, dentistry, and others.

SarahSV ^(talk) 17:20, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

If you look at the Cochrane website you will also notice that we are one of their three key partners.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc James, yes, and that makes Wikipedia look good. But the Osmosis partnership makes Osmosis look good. Also, Cochrane didn't ask for a certain amount of space in hundreds of articles, or try to specify where in the articles that space had to be. Would you consider releasing more information about how this came about, particularly re: "James and other medical editors will place the videos in the first sections of articles (but below the infobox)"? [30] I accept that you acted with good intentions, but that requirement is a bit of a red flag. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

User:SlimVirgin it was User:Ocaasi (WMF) that added that text. It was however never a requirement of this collaboration but only one possible suggested spot. Have removed that wording from the page in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:08, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc James, thanks, I saw that it was Jake who added it, but I'm wondering how it came about, i.e. who first suggested it and when. That one issue shows that this was about marketing. Another thing that puzzles me is that the videos are aimed at medical students, whereas you normally insist that articles be aimed (as far as possible) at the general reader. Several of the ones I looked at would be too technical for most readers.

SlimVirgin I honestly don't recall how the issue of video placement was raised and discussed, but it was coming from a place of at least mutual benefit for Wikipedia. There has been a lack of quality multi-media on Wikipedia amidst a media-consumption environment where people increasingly seek video content and explanations to help understand concepts. For that reason, having a video 'above the fold' was important for discoverability, so that people would find and watch them. Osmosis was offering open-licensed, high-quality medical content in a format we very often lack; it was seen as a potential boon to our articles. They offered the content and said, more or less, "wouldn't it be cool if when people read about a medical topic there was a high-quality, free video they would find to help understand it?" There weren't any strings attached that I can remember about the videos having to be in one part of the article versus another. It was basically, "take our content and put it where it will be useful to readers." --Jake Ocaasi ^{t | c} 19:54, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Jake, thanks for the explanation. That helps. My concern was that they had insisted on that placement. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:57, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

SarahSV Osmosis needed a bit of education about where video placement was appropriate. Their initial idea was that it could be in an article infobox(!), which we explained would never happen. We explained that any video would have to be below the first section header, as a minimum. From there they didn't insist on anything, it was merely a matter of taking content that seemed a good fit and finding a good place for it in the article. --Jake Ocaasi ^{t | c} 16:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Ocaasi Infobox placement has happened, at tic disorder, and Doc James has said I may not move it out of the infobox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

More Osmosis marketing that mentions WP (interview): "Today [2017], Osmosis is an educational platform with over 65,000 users, seeing an incredible growth of 670,000 views on YouTube and millions of views on Wikipedia (being the largest provider of videos to Wikipedia.)" SarahSV ^(talk) 19:23, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

SarahSV, thanks for digging into this. I agree with your concerns and points. I think the most charitable we can be here, is to assume an astounding degree of naivety and lack of thinking through the issues. Wrt what Jimbo wrote, well I don't think he sees this conversation, so you'll have to take it up with him on his talk page. I agree he didn't pick his words carefully or accurately. I also don't really see any difference between charitable foundation and commercial organisation if both are privately funded. Unlike a public charity which is answerable to the public (as Oxfam found to its cost) or a state-owned institution. -- Colin°^Talk 19:58, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

• James, I think you should regard yourself as having a conflict of interest when it comes to these videos. They were added to articles following an agreement, in December 2015, between two Knowledge Diffusion employees, yourself and two WMF employees, Sylvia Ventura, WMF Strategic Partnerships and Jake Orlowitz, WMF Community Engagement. The agreement said that you were representing Wiki Project Med Foundation, not the board of trustees, but it's impossible not to notice that everyone involved was either WMF-related or from Knowledge Diffusion, Inc. And Wiki Project Med Foundation isn't the community.

Since then, you've effectively functioned as a Knowledge Diffusion rep, restoring videos when editors object, and fielding requests for corrections. It's unfair of the company to leave you in that situation while the company account, OsmoseIt, has barely been active. I appreciate that you're acting in good faith and that you genuinely don't see it this way, but people involved in a COI often think there isn't a problem, and it isn't a question of good or bad faith. See WP:COI: "That someone has a conflict of interest is a description of a situation, not a judgment about that person's opinions or integrity." The fact is that you're trying to wear two hats, and it isn't fair to put you in that position. SarahSV ^(talk) 17:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

User:SlimVirgin no I do not have a COI with respect to these videos. I do not wear a "hat" at osmosis if that is what you are claiming. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Doc James: everyone involved in the agreement about the videos has a COI: the Knowledge Diffusion employees have a financial COI in relation to the company and its videos (not in relation to the video topics), and are paid editors if they edit here on behalf of the company, and you, Jake and Sylvia have a general COI in relation to the videos (and arguably in relation to the company). WP:COI: "Any external relationship can trigger a conflict of interest. ... COI emerges from an editor's roles and relationships, and the tendency to bias that we assume exists when those roles and relationships conflict." SarahSV ^(talk) 19:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Hum so User:SlimVirgin I have COI with respect to the National Institutes of Health, Cancer Research UK, University of California San Francisco, Slacker School of Medicine, the World Health Organization, Cochrane, National Organization for Rare Disorders, National Libraries of Medicine, National Health Services, etc because I have spoken with all these groups about Wikipedia?

Am I required to declare this in every edit summary? Thankfully the WMF increased the length of edit summaries to allow this, though I think the community was looking at shortening the edit summaries as they felt they were made too long. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:43, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

You reached an agreement with a private company to do something on their behalf that has turned out to be contentious. Now that people are removing the material, you're edit warring. Yes, if the same thing had happened followed an agreement between you and the World Health Organization, it would also be a COI; it's just much worse when it involves a private commercial interest. James, it's very much in your own interests here to be gracious and step back, and let the community reach a decision independently of you. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:13, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

This is an extreme missunderstanding of what COI is. You are invalidating any efforts to do anything that uses external material. Yes there is an interest here to not paint Wikipedia as a cesspit of debate over nothing, where there is no possibility of aquiring future content donations. This is not COI, this is interest. An entirely non-conflicting interest. What you are suggesting is that supporting Wikipedias fundamental mission statement is COI. Carl Fredrik ^talk 20:19, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

agree w/ CF appraisal--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@CFCF and Ozzie10aaaa: see Bernard Lo and Marilyn J. Field (Institute of Medicine, 2009): "A conflict of interest is a set of circumstances that creates a risk that professional judgment or actions regarding a primary interest will be unduly influenced by a secondary interest" (bold added). [31]

James has acted on behalf of commercial interests (a secondary interest) and believed he was also acting in WP's interests (the primary interest). WP wants material that complies with its core content policies, including V. The company wants space in articles to increase its brand recognition, but unfortunately it has chosen not to comply with V, although it could do so by releasing the scripts with inline citations.

Now that the issue has become contentious, James refuses to step back to allow uninvolved people to handle it, and is edit warring to restore the videos. That places him in a conflict in the sense that "a set of circumstances has created a risk that his judgment or actions regarding his primary interest have been unduly influenced by his relationship with the company". Note: we can't know whether his judgement has actually been unduly influenced, and nor can he; the point is that the risk has been created by the relationship with Osmosis. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:57, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I do not agree with your assessment that Doc James has acted on behalf of a commercial interest. I believe this focus is extremely misguided and is akin to suggest that preferencing high-impact factor journals is acting in the commercial interest of said journals in a way that is problematic. Your interpretation of COI can implicate any actions as COI.

The word to note here is unduly, which this case clearly is not under any interpretation. You seem to advocate disinterest. Carl Fredrik ^talk 21:04, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Can you say what you mean by "you seem to advocate disinterest"? SarahSV ^(talk) 22:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm also not seeing any CoI issue. Collaborating with Osmosis is like doing GLAM outreach. Wikipedia:Osmosis shows that Doc was willing to work with Osmosis to improve Wikipedia. It does not show that he has secondary interests in Osmosis itself. I really wish Doc hadn't edit warred, but I believe he did it out of conviction that the videos help Wikipedia's readers. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 12:55, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

ongoing?

Doc James it appears from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Osmosis that no new videos have been posted since 2016. Is this collaboration no longer active?

Also are you are aware of any instances where Osmosis has changed a video in response to feedback? If so would you please provide diffs of that? thx Jytdog (talk) 14:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes ongoing. They updated the celiac disease video based on feedback. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

That was in March 2016. [32] SarahSV ^(talk) 19:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, but It was not enough. I can not accept that the video is not improved because it requires a lot of time of work: "To give some perspective, making edits to these videos does not take 2 seconds. The edit we made on your suggestion took a couple of hours of work --OsmoseIt" or because "We feel your other suggestions are an expansion of the scope of the video, beyond what we want to cover for our target audience. --OsmoseIt". This is Wikipedia and we have to comply with Wikipedia policies and objectives, not Osmosis team objetives. See more detailed explanations here.

I believe that the videos are educational and a good initiative. I agree that they could be included in Wikipedia, as long as they meet these criteria: that Osmosis update them continuously and that they are correctly referenced / supported by current verifiable sources, as we do with the text of the pages, and always taking into account the feedback with other editors, dedicating the necessary time (as Wikipedia editors do...) and complying with the Wikpedia policies.

Oh, my God!! I had not seen the IBS video until now . I just saw it and I was horrified!! (I really only saw in depth that of celiac disease) If this is what Osmosis specialists get to do... it's better not to have any video than to have this! Videos are educational and a good initiative, but they have to be of quality. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 23:57, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I reverted your removal of the IBS video. There is nothing factually wrong with it to justify a "horrified response".--Literaturegeek | T@1k? 02:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

In my modest opinion, I think that one mistake has been to centralize the discussions in the Osmosis project. I think it should have been talked directly on the specific talk pages of each disease, so that it was visible to everyone. Many editors certainly did not know about the Osmosis project. In the discussion of this project, linking to specific discussions and talking about other general issues related to the project itself. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 13:51, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

BallenaBlanca, thanks for the examples. I've added them to Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not YouTube. Great illustration of how the community cannot edit these videos and why that is a problem. We are the mercy of a private third-party who does not share our agenda -- they have their own paying audience to worry about. -- Colin°^Talk 14:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Colin thanks for your kindness.

I want to say that I do not feel comfortable with this situation, I do not like to enter into these disputes. I just want to give my opinion from the medical point of view because I think that at least in the case of the video mentioned is of extreme importance. Other Wikipedia nuances are beyond my knowledge.

I want to add that I have no doubt about the honesty and good intentions of Doc James. I think he is a neutral and collaborative editor, one of the most valuable that Wikipedia has and the pillar of articles on Medicine. I admire his work and I am saddened by what is happening. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 14:40, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Update

I have had a discussion with folks at Osmosis about many of the issues raised above:

1) They have agreed to remove both the front bumper and back bumper from all videos. Attribution will remain on Commons in the usual spot, as will the notice of what license they are under.

2) They will update the collaboration page here which has obviously fallen out of date.

3) They will produce a new video for breastfeeding to address the concerns that were raised here by User:Clayoquot and User:Gandydancer. As well as fix the other issues mentioned. They will put in place better mechanisms for up dating videos / addressing feedback.

4) I have followed up with respect to their NGO status. They are looking at two possibilities, creating an NGO group for Wikipedia work and becoming a Benefit corporation. They have not accomplished either yet.

They will put together a timeline for when these efforts will be completed. Best Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Doc James, I would say you need community consensus before continuing with this. They're not going to keep updating videos for free, so these are always going to lag behind, and volunteers shouldn't have to spend their time helping Osmosis staff correct them. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:27, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Why would they not continue to update videos for free User:SlimVirgin? All these videos are already under a free license, why would they not have an incentive to keep them updated? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:40, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

They have agreed to fix only one of the problematic videos. Doc, I have not wanted to extend the debate to every detail that is wrong with every video, but this will not suffice as a solution. (You are overlooking the "suffer from" POV at tic disorder among others, and the coeliac problems expressed at Jimbo talk, and the still poor text at dementia with Lewy bodies, and we haven't even systematically evaluated others.)

We are seeing the same walled garden problem here that led to this issue happening in the first place, as is mentioned at Jimbo talk; this is a Wikipedia-wide issue, and yet we are seeing proposals on one Project page, with no acknowledgement of the extent of the issues these videos create ... in spite of almost no support for these videos in the wider discussion at Talk:Jimbo. We are also seeing no movement here on the matter that whether these videos are in individual articles is a matter for consensus, and without resolution, we could be headed for the dreaded infobox territory.

It seems that most of the issues have surfaced now, and Colin has had an opportunity to put forward the essay at Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not YouTube. I agree with Colin that moving to RFC too fast is not conducive to good resolution of problems, but it appears that, if we are not quite there yet, we are approaching the time when we should begin to consider who will draft a Wikipedia-wide RFC. It is usually best to have two people, who represent the opposing viewpoints. This situation is not sustainable, and the sooner we get broad consensus, the better in terms of minimizing the issues we will face on many articles.

I echo SV's concern that you not continue to proceed, Doc, as if this were a one-person or one-project matter. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

No this is not entirely correct. They have agreed to fix a number of videos, I just mentioning this as one. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:32, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

No, they did not fix the CD video, only a small part. Look at my comment above. --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 14:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Sandy Georgia, SlimVirgin — I would like to point out that this is absolutely not a one man project by Doc James, but in fact a collaboration among a large group of editors. Doc James simple does most of the work, and I find it would be a massive shame if this were to stop just because of a small minority loud voices criticized everything. If the videos are bad we can remove them from specific articles, if they aren't then there is no issue — there is no reason to put the project on hold because they can't be edited. Most editors are horrible at editing images, that hasn't stopped us from including them on articles. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:52, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Hey everyone! Thanks for sharing your concerns with me and my team. I really appreciate how passionate you are about the content itself and the mission of Wikipedia. I just want to add some clarity to some of the issues mentioned here.

1) Both myself and my team would like to be good citizens of Wikipedia. I feel that having us in the community will help foster conversations around how video can enhance wikipedia.

2) I regularly add videos. There are 300 or so which you can see here

3) I do read and respond to feedback, including your suggestions about saying “person” not “patient”. My team made that transition a while ago, and since then they have continued to improve our language to be more inclusive. I’d be open to dialog on how to receive more constructive feedback from the community for existing and future videos.

4) When I upload videos, I’ve been putting the sources in the video description, but for some reason that information isn’t displaying. Not sure why, I thought it was working fine until I looked back at it today. Definitely something I can fix now that we know it’s a problem.

5)I’m willing to remove the branding and social media links from the end of the videos. We’ll be keeping the CC-BY-SA 4.0 license and the credits so that we adhere to CC attribution guidelines from the CC content we use within our videos.

I’m looking forward to working with you all to address your concerns, and to find solutions that work for us all. Thank you!OsmoseIt (talk) 23:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

thank you for posting your remarks--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:33, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Point of order

In what capacity is Doc James acting, here? Is Doc James a representative of Knowledge Diffusion (the company) and/or Osmosis, or is he holding himself out to them as a representative of Wikipedia?

I don't doubt that James is acting in good faith or that he has what he believes are the project's best interests at heart. However I am not sure why we are relying on James to be our sole conduit to Osmosis. Why is he in the position to choose which requests, suggestions, or concerns get passed on to Osmosis staff, and why is he posting responses on their behalf? Osmosis and Knowledge Diffusion should have their own representative able to engage directly with the Wikipedia community. It's not fair to Doc James or to the Wikipedia community to ask Doc to serve two masters here. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:01, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

User:TenOfAllTrades I have no formal relationship with Osmosis or Knowledge Diffusion and do not represent them in any manner. I do however generally consider their videos to be useful for our readers. And thus I generally supported adding them and still support keeping them (with modifications).

I was involved with convincing them to use an open license and to upload their videos to Wikipedia starting back in 2015. I began this when one of there members (a pediatrician at Stanford) was still working part time at the Khan academy. That organization released three of their videos under an open license as you can see here

Khan was not interested in releasing further videos under an open license however. When Osmosis formed they were much more interested in using open licenses and working with us.

In these discussion I speak on my own behalf. Happy to ask them to respond here directly if people wish. Looks like some are simply push to remove the videos entirely though. This does not really require them to join in a discussion. Having them join a discussion is only required if people are interested in collaborating. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:30, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have agreed with almost every word you have written in the discussion about the videos here and at Talk:Jimbo, User:TenOfAllTrades. (I mean that, precisely - almost every word). But really. "serve two masters"? That is your first slide over into the lala land that Colin et al are painting.

There is no big dark thing going here.

Doc James has advocated for accessible content for a long time. That is what the translation task force is all about, for example. As already discussed in the 1st post about this here at WTMED, Doc James started working with the folks at Khan Academy (a nonprofit) on medical videos for WP, and the person Doc James was collaborating with there left Khan and continued the work at Osmosis.

It seems to me that Doc James likes the videos since they are meant-for-the-public educational material that are freely licensed, and reasonably good quality. (they are not "created for med students" as Colin keeps saying). They arguably help us meet our mission.

All that said i totally agree that it would be great to have osmosis reps in the discussion; it would have been great if there had been more dialogue all through this time period. Jytdog (talk) 20:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

OsmoseIt, 23:47, 14 March 2016 (UTC): "The target audience of our videos is for medical students ..." SarahSV ^(talk) 23:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

"Serve two masters" is reasonable idiomatic English in context, where it was ambiguous what role(s) Doc James held officially or unofficially with respect to Wikipedia and Osmosis. And even though (I don't imagine) it was his intent, has has functionally been Wikipedia's envoy to Osmosis, and also Osmosis' spokesperson here. While your vigorous defence of James' honor is admirable, it's neither necessary nor helpful for you to ratchet up the drama by accusing everyone else of being too dramatic. Picking on Colin doesn't help your argument, either; I hope you'll dial that back.

There doesn't have to be a "big dark thing" conspiracy for there to be a "substantial suboptimal thing" needing relatively prompt attention. Knowledge Diffusion and Osmosis, with the support of Doc James and what seems to be a very small group of other Wikipedia editors, embarked on a substantial project to insert content from a particular source into prominent places in prominent articles, without a great deal of oversight or review (until now). We seem to be agreed that there should have been more dialogue through the process up to now, and that the community is very uncomfortable with delaying that dialogue much further now. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, and will point out that any activity on medical articles on Wikipedia is always the result of what a small group of Wikipedia editors do. Carl Fredrik ^talk 20:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Subpage agreement please

Should we set up a central page for listing issues with individual videos? I would rather not have to engage talk-page-by-talk-page, and think a subpage would provide more eyes on the issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:29, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes a good idea. Started one here Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:37, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I am concerned that that may be a bit of a cart-before-the-horse approach to this situation. Before we get to dissecting and closely critiquing individual videos, we should probably consider whether or not we intend to retain these videos at all, in substantially similar form as inline article content.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 00:25, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah they were my thoughts too....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:38, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't intend to continue evaluating any of them, but putting it in one place was a containment effort. I don't want to deal with this at each article. Given the absence of support for these videos in the broader community, it would be nice if they could be removed from the articles mentioned now, but on the other hand, I have no interest in heading towards Infobox Wars. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

+1 At the moment I don't see any community-wide consensus for these articles-as-videos. I think they should all go. -- Colin°^Talk 07:22, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

There is no need for such community-wide consensus. There is however need for local consensus on each article, which can be implicit (i.e. they were not removed or immidiately criticized). However, if you wish to remove all the videos there is need for commnity-wide consensus, and I would dare say that if you wish to remove any specific video there is need for local consensus on that article. I oppose any removal that is not based on specific issues with the individual video. Carl Fredrik ^talk 13:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Forget about "implicit" when they were inserted without notification and without edit summaries. I would like to mention, again, that WT:MED has shot itself-- and all our past efforts-- in the foot, by acting like a walled garden. Specific issues with the videos are outlined in numerous places. And local consensus at WT:MED to breach all manner of Wikipedia policy and guideline is overruled by ... well ... everything. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:19, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

(ec) The onus is on editors arguing for inclusion of content to achieve consensus in favor of it. Content that was added under vague edit summaries doesn't receive special privileged protection—hanging around hoping not to get noticed doesn't get you tenure here.

In the discussion here and at Jimbo's talk, I've seen mention of something like 300 videos. It's not reasonable to insist on having three hundred separate, sparsely-attended discussions which touch on the same general concerns. (Even if far fewer videos were in articles right now, it still wouldn't make sense to do fifty, or twenty, or even a dozen duplicate discussions.) Article-by-article discussion(s) in the way you propose would be the correct and usual approach if there were a broad preexisting consensus that these sorts embedded video summaries were acceptable to the Wikipedia community, and the only concerns raised here were about specific video details.

Absent an existing general consensus, an insistence on three hundred article-by-article discussions is just a way to avoid engaging the issues and grind down opposition with bureaucracy. That's not cool. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The whole thing is not cool. Specifically, that protracted attacks on Colin are implicitly accepted by active editors in this project, several of whom are admins. And, unlike the Infobox Wars, in this case, there is obviously an explicit breach of core policy, so I am done with concerns that we are headed down that path. Either someone drafts an RFC, or the videos start going. And anyone who watches the personal attacks continue in here,[33] coming from one editor who has been admonished many times, and does not speak up, is a weanie to be lashed with a wet noodle. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:40, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

PS, WP:NPOV is also core policy. In the year 2000, the requirement for "significant distress or impairment" in Tourette syndrome was removed from the DSM, in recognition that the majority of people with TS are not impaired or distressed. Since 2006, I have kept the POV words, "suffer from" out of the TS suite of articles. Now we have a video with that POV installed at tic disorder. What were people thinking when they did this? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

CFCF Every single one fails core policy WP:V, one of the three Core content policies. WP:MED has no authority whatsoever to break this with local consensus (which there is none -- none of these were ever discussed on article-talk prior to insertion and most were inserted by stealth with either no edit summary or just the word "added").

IMO every single one of them can and will be removed with the following rationale:

Per WP:V "any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." This video does not contain any inline sources, nor any means to tie sources to specific facts and claims made. Per WP:V, "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" and "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source" This material must not be restored as-is.

And unlike Doc James, I shall use an edit summary when doing so. I did not create WP:MEDRS so that a private company can insert articles-as-videos with a free pass to ignore the medical sourcing requirements everyone else has to follow, and inline-citation requirements that everyone on Wikipedia has to follow. No exceptions. WP:NOTYOUTUBE. -- Colin°^Talk 13:31, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The videos have so far been near-exact copies of the ledes, which are either sourced or don't need in-depth sourcing. Providing the videos with sourced transcripts for the commons description may be a good idea, but is not obligatory. I also strongly object to your user-essay WP:NOTYOUTUBE. I also see you wrote it yesterday, and it does not strengthen your argument here to link it as a policy similar to the other WP:NOT rules. Carl Fredrik ^talk 15:13, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

• Carl, the videos I've looked at are not near-exact copies of the leads. This is material that doesn't comply with WP:V and WP:MEDRS. The insertion of it into Wikipedia helps Knowledge Diffusion, Inc. commercially by increasing brand recognition, and that helps them to sell Osmosis Prime. They're quite clear about the connection between the free and paid on YouTube. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:27, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
• The videos I looked at are nothing like the leads. CFCF, could you please provide an example of a video that is a near-exact copy of an article lead? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:36, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
• CFCF, this is completely untrue in every case I have looked at. And even if they were, the last thing we need is another external project driving the content and sourcing in our leads-- we already have that with the translation project. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The videos I've seen are primarily copies of ledes, and the organization has been responsive to changing any videos with specific issues. The transcripts should be available, and if we simply centralize these somewhere comparing them with the ledes is very simple. This conduct risks alienating any future collaboration, so I would suggest we instead look at constructive solutions and level criticism at specific issues, preferably one at a time. These videos have been around for a long time, and it is not possible to handle all this discussion at once without entirely ruining the prospect of any future videos. Carl Fredrik ^talk 20:24, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

General issue of long article-topic videos

I have created the essay Wikipedia is not YouTube. As with all essays, it offers one viewpoint and set of opinions that isn't necessarily shared by the whole community and has no pretensions to represent consensus (yet!) Constructive edits to the essay by those who share some of the views/opinions expressed are welcome. Editors who have opposing views can rant on the talk page, if they can remain civil, or create their own essay. In particular, Doc James and Jytdog are expressly discouraged from editing the essay or its talk page due to their current civility issues on this topic and me personally. Editors with experience writing guidelines or crafting our very finest articles, such as User:SandyGeorgia, User:SlimVirgin, User:WhatamIdoing and User:Graham Beards are very much encouraged to comment/edit. Feel free to ping others. I should note that I may not always be as active as some here, so if you have the urge to make significant changes, please discuss first and remember there is no rush.

My aim with this essay is to discuss the problems with long article-topic videos, and at present conclude they are not appropriate for Wikipedia. I have no problem with them being hosted on Commons and being used in some other WMF project. The issues above, of paid editing, COI editing, proxy editing, promotional material, the privatisation of Wikipedia content, edit warring, bullying, and chucking WP:MEDRS out of the window, are not covered. That's being discussed above and elsewhere. -- Colin°^Talk 20:51, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

w/ regard to[34]Medical articles should be everything they need to be(not just text), to therefore inform our readers via ...text, audio and video...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Prior discussions at WPMED about the collaboration

• Dec 4, 2013
• Aug 28, 2014

• Nov 26, 2014
• Feb 8, 2015
• July 5, 2015

• Dec 24, 2015
• Feb 8 2016
• Mar 23, 2016
• Aug 30, 2017

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:07, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks James. One thing I noticed in the March 23 link is that Doc James added videos to three articles with an edit summary of "Added". As Doc James is widely trusted to make competent edits and "Added" is nonspecific, many article watchers would not have checked his additions. If this is his usual edit summary for the 300 videos, I would guess that there are videos on some of our articles that the regular watchers of the article haven't noticed. I am not suggesting that Doc James was deliberately hiding anything. Just pointing out that the videos might be have received even less review than we think. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:47, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

There is no obligation to provide an edit summary, and as this has been discussed extensively before this seems like conspiratorial thinking on your part in order to justify this inane discussion. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:59, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

agree w/ CF--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:07, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

CFCF 1) Where has the possibility that regular article-watchers might not not have noticed the additions of the videos been "discussed extensively" before? 2) How does one manage to read "I am not suggesting that Doc James was deliberately hiding anything" and conclude that the writer thinks there is a conspiracy? 3) Some aspects of this discussion are inane (and hysterical and counter-productive) but there are also serious issues about content quality that are being raised and taken seriously by all sides. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:30, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

1) The project has been discussed extensively, not the prospect, which is not what I suggested. 2) The conspiracy is the notion that editors would not have noticed the additions. 3) But these are not possible to discern due to the sheer volume of discussion. I find myself responding to the same thing at 5 different places, and unable to follow the 10+ simultaneous discussions (I do not have time to respond to discussions 24/7), in part because the same questions and arguments are presented over and over again. It would be preferable to let this cool down and then discuss potential solutions calmly. The solution to remove all videos is not on the table. Carl Fredrik ^talk 20:28, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

When I were a lad, we used to judge potential admins on whether they gave useful and honest edit summaries. Don't know if this still goes on, but Help:Edit summary says "When editors stand for Adminship, their RfA pages include statistics about how often they have provided edit summaries in the past." James is an admin. Just saying. -- Colin°^Talk 20:35, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

What kinds of videos do our readers want?

The reason that I see repeatedly given for keeping the videos is that Wikipedia readers want "more videos". In the July 2015 discussion linked to above, there's an interesting comment from WhatamIdoing, linking to an update on the WMF strategy discussion that giving us this "more videos" request. I watched 20 minutes of video that she linked to, and read the slides.

In that presentation, I am seeing the requests for more videos. I'm not seeing any indications that in this research, we have asked questions like, "What do you want to learn from videos that you aren't currently learning from article text?" Or: "Can you give me an example of an article that ought to have a video, and tell me what should be in that video?" Or that we showed samples of videos to readers with accompanying article content and asked, "Is this video helpful? Is this what you were hoping for? How is it better than just having article text?" Not grasping and communicating the needs behind a so-called requirement, so you understand it only at the most superficial level ("more videos") is one of the main reasons technology projects fail. It's why all software developers love this cartoon.

I'm bringing this up because I fully accept that most readers want more videos, but... what I find hard to believe is that most readers want videos that consist almost entirely of bulleted lists on Powerpoint slides, with a narrator reading the text that is on the slides. Everyone I know detests that kind of video. Especially when the content of text is as exciting as a start-class version of an encyclopedia article and when a more complete encyclopedia article is right in front of them. Some editors here (or maybe only one?) like that kind of video and know people who like that kind of video, but I hypothesize that they are a small minority of the population.

If we are going to sink volunteer resources into reviewing video content, we should start with thorough user-centered research into what kinds of videos are actually useful to readers. Then we can make strategic decisions as a community to acquire or develop videos that will meet those needs. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 04:29, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Well their video on pneumonia on YouTube got 133,500 views in the last few months.[35]

Their video on tuberculosis and HIV/AIDS each have about half a million views. The tuberculosis one has 5,500 likes to 98 dislikes.[36] The HIV/AIDS one has 3,200 likes to 106 dislikes.[37]

IMO that is fairly impressive. And I can assure you all these views were not just me. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:46, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Clayoquot, very interesting. It seems James has misinterpreted "we want videos" to mean "we don't have the attention span to read Wikipedia articles. Please can you do it all like on YouTube." Their popularity on YouTube is irrelevant. Cat videos are popular on YouTube and we don't have one of them in every article. James has forgotten that this is a collaboratively edited encyclopaedia. -- Colin°^Talk 07:11, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

That isn't a misinterpretation — we can simply cater to both those who read articles and those who view videos. We know that nearly no one reads entire Wikipedia articles, so I think you're the one who's missinterpreting and being disingenuous to boot. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

And this discussion: "I don't think these videos add anything of value to our articles. The blood flow through the heart video is simply a repeat of what is stated or implied in the article. There's nothing of educational value that is not already described in detail in the main article. I would be more impressed if you could find a video of a cardiomyocyte beating in a petri dish or in vivo, or something similar that expands upon, rather than repeat, the information in the main text." was replied by James "Different people learn in different ways.". Yes, they can go learn this way on YouTube. -- Colin°^Talk 07:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Then you don't need to watch the video. We don't direct people to Youtube because Wikipedia represents uniquely non-commercial information. There is nothing wrong with us presenting information in several different modes. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:55, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

But the information is unsourced. If you want to introduce a special rule that says videos in medical articles (or perhaps all articles?) are a type of material that need not comply with WP:V, the onus is on you to gain consensus for that change. SarahSV ^(talk) 16:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The videos are supported by references, just not inline ones. Plus we do not require inline references in the WP:LEAD as long as the content is supported by the body of the text. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:45, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Where can I find the information that shows the references that they used for the videos? Clearly in the case of the Breastfeeding video there are glaring mistakes that are obviously not based on acceptable refs. Furthermore, it is not only what is included in the video, it is what is not included. For example at Breastfeeding they list five health effects for babies while our article lists many, many more than that. If one only looks at the video they come away with an entirely different understanding of health benefits than if they had read the article. This should clearly show that its hard to cram a whole article into a ten-minute video and should not be attempted, at least in some cases. Gandydancer (talk) 17:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

User:Gandydancer It is also hard to fit an overview of an article into the text of our leads. Yes trade offs do occur.

Referencing is not as consistent as it should be. You can see the references at the end of the script here

Working on getting the scripts for all articles. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:32, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The videos aren't leads. Outside leads, per WP:V, "[a]ll quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." SarahSV ^(talk) 17:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The vidoes are part of the ledes, and are often based on exact readings of the ledes. They are sourced, and a blanket challenge on all video content is not acceptable practice. Video files have no specific policy, but images are not covered by the same criteria as text, and it would be improper to begin by throwing away all these videos, which is very very counterproductive to Wikipedias goals. Carl Fredrik ^talk 19:30, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

What does Osmosis plan to do with the inaccurate videos?

This video has been removed from the corresponding Wikipedia page (coeliac disease), but is still available on Wikimedia Commons. I have chosen to edit it in this way (see video). At least, whoever sees it there knows what he/she is seeing. A video about celiac disease, which is a systemic disease that primarily affects the intestine, made by (see credits at the end of the video): "an Assistant Professor of Pathology at the University of Minnesota School of Medicine and School of Dentistry. Before deciding to teach full time, (she) completed a pathology residency and fellowships in hematopathology and molecular pathology. (...) (she) creates materials for medical students, dental students, and allied health students."

I am concerned, however, the hundreds of thousands of people who watched, are watching and will watch it on YouTube (currently more than 200.000 visits).

I worry that the prestige of Wikipedia may also be compromised.

What does Osmosis plan to do with the videos we are detecting that contain outdated or inaccurate information...? --BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 13:36, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Osmosis grants and timeline

In case this is helpful, here's an overview of Knowledge Diffusion/Osmosis grants and how the company became involved with Wikipedia. It has received several grants or other investments, often referring to its relationship with Wikipedia, WikiProject Medicine or Wiki Project Med. It's currently applying for $100,000 from the Wikimedia Foundation. In May 2016 the company said: "Our current library of videos are the official medical teaching videos on Wikipedia (e.g. Zika virus, pneumonia, and jaundice), and garner over 200,000 views/month and hundreds of positive comments" (bold added). [38]

• May 2014: Knowledge Diffusion Inc., operating as Osmosis, received $150,000 from the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation "to help Osmosis make its platform accessible to all clinical students". [39]
• 17 December 2015: Ocaasi (Jake Orlowitz) created Wikipedia:Osmosis with his WMF account stating that a partnership had been formed with Osmosis. Those listed were "James Heilman, Wiki Project Med Foundation (not in role as WMF Board member); Rishi, Osmosis; Kyle, Osmosis; Sylvia Ventura, WMF Strategic Partnerships; Jake Orlowitz, WMF Community Engagement". The page said: "James and other medical editors will place the videos in the first sections of articles (but below the infobox)." [40]
• 22 December 2015: Osmosis began uploading their videos to Commons. The company account is User:OsmoseIt (Commons), identified here as Kyle.
• 24 December 2015: Doc James began adding the videos to the lead or first section of articles. [41][42][43][44]
• 1 January 2017: A new account, Chrisbospher, objected: "I really like the idea of creating med ed videos, but can't help but feel that since Osmosis is a for-profit education company (https://www.osmosis.org/plans) charging $199/year, that it is disingenuous for us to help them with free advertising via wikipedia." James opened an AN/I because Chrisbospher twice changed James' description of Osmosis from "an organization" to "a for-profit organization".
• January 2017: Osmosis received $250,000 from the Hewlett Foundation: "In collaboration with WikiProject Medicine and the UCSF-UCB Joint Masters Program, Osmosis will undertake a 12-month pilot project to help medical school faculty and students integrate OER [open educational resources] into their curriculum ..." (bold added).[45]
• December 2017: Osmosis received $100,000 from TEDCO (Maryland Tech Development Corp) in December 2017: "Knowledge Diffusion Inc (DBA Osmosis), located in Baltimore, provides an operating system for health professional’s education. Reaching more than 500,000 current and future professionals, Osmosis offers a personalized learning platform ..." [46] "The startup creates medical education videos that are distributed widely through Wikipedia and YouTube" (bold added). [47]
• January 2018: Osmosis received an unknown amount by Coverys, a medical professional liability insurance provider: "Osmosis leverages its video learning platform to create and disseminate co-branded video content ... It also has a strong partnership with Wikipedia, which features Osmosis content on health and medicine articles. To date, Osmosis has focused on medical students but is quickly gaining traction with a number of other critical healthcare provider segments including nursing, physician assistants, pharmacy, dentistry, and others" (bold added). [48]
• January 2018: Osmosis applied for $100,000 from the Wikimedia Foundation: "We intend to grow the pool of editors of Wikipedia’s health-related topics by expanding Wikipedia-editing opportunities for health professional students ... Osmosis videos have been made in collaboration with members of the WikiProject Medicine community and are posted on the relevant Wikipedia pages" (bold added). [49] According to Mjohnson (WMF), the application made it to round 1. [50]

SarahSV ^(talk) 16:13, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Diligence appreciated. Greater concerns about Doc's edit warring these videos into articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:27, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, Sarah. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:48, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

• noting, since SlimVirgin didn't, that she joined the discussion at the talk page of WMF grant proposal, citing the several discussions here, and selectively pinged Colin and SandyGeorgia there in this diff. That would be the definition of canvassing. Whatever Jytdog (talk) 19:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
  • One would have guessed that Doc James already knew (apparently he did not, but that was just revealed). BTW, considering this fellow has 33 mainspace edits, this is a marriage between the worst of two nightmares (the education program and Osmosis). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:49, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
• This is disturbing that they are representing themselves as being officially partnered with Wikipedia. Natureium (talk) 19:51, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
• I see references to partnership with 'Wiki Project Medicine' above in this section. Doc James does this refer to WP:MED or meta:Wiki Project Med? Did the Wiki Project Med Foundation have any role in this? Also, since you seem to be the primary POC for this can you address how they came to be allowed to make representations such as "Our current library of videos are the official medical teaching videos on Wikipedia"? (Wikipedia has official videos?!?) And otherwise use Wikipedia in their publicity material? Finally, is there any written agreement relating to these videos?
  As you know better than most, one of the biggest issues Wikipedia faces, and which is of considerable concern to many of the volunteers here, is the effects that commercial interests have on Wikipedia content. I, and I would think many others, would be very interested on how this came to pass. Thank you for your indulgence in this. Jbh ^Talk 21:13, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Refers to Wiki Project Med Foundation. Agree the wording "official" is incorrect and unfortunate. There is no formal signed agreement between either myself or WPMEDF and Osmosis. Just as we have no formal signed agreement with the World Health Organization, National Institutes of Health, University of California San Francisco School of Medicine, Radiopedia, or Ecgpedia beyond them agreeing to release certain materials under an open license which occurs via OTRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
    • Doc James, please don't keep making those comparisons. This is a small for-profit company that has obtained free advertising on Wikipedia for years, as well as hundreds of thousands of dollars, always mentioning its connection to Wikipedia (a connection the community wasn't aware of), including claiming to supply "the official medical teaching videos on Wikipedia". [51] Now it has asked the WMF to give it $100,000. Please consider releasing all the information you have about this. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:53, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
    • By the way, just to be clear, I'm not accusing the company of any wrongdoing. They've taken what was offered and can't be blamed for any of this. My concern is how it came about from the Wikipedia end of things. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
      • I am not sure what you think I have on this? I am not and have never been involved in their communication side of things. I have never approved or was even aware that they were using the phrase "official medical teaching videos on Wikipedia" and have just send a request that they stop.
      • Basically I liked Khan Academies work (but it is under an NC license). When the division that was at Khan working on medical videos moved to Osmosis and agreed to release their videos under a license we allow, I saw that as a positive for our readers. We discussed this nine times over the last few years on this page. Sure the majority now appears to disagree with further collaboration. So be it.
      • Yes they are a small for profit that has received "hundreds of thousands of dollars" in grants. They were when we began talking working on becoming a not for profit. That they has not occurred is concerning. They have however received no money from the WM movement as of now. And with being disallowed on EN WP I am sure will not in the future. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:05, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
        • • https://radiopaedia.org/supporters also has memberships and I am not sure of their corporate structure. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:35, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
        • Okay so based on this RfC I have requested that they "remove any mention about being in collaboration with Wikipedia". Plus I have recommended that they withdraw the grant application from the WMF. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:16, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
          • Thank you for writing to them. The issue wasn't really discussed nine times, James. You posted a few times about it and a very small number of people responded. Regarding the WMF grant application, it passed round one, and a decision was due to be reached on 26 March, according to the schedule. When you say they received no money from the movement, I wonder how much that advertising space was worth over the years. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
            • No,, SlimVirgin — The project was discussed, and thoroughly. It is now ruined, and I hope you're happy. Carl Fredrik ^talk 12:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
              • It was never a mystery that the people behind a firm like Johnson & Johnson were unlikely to approve of what was going on here. CFCF, please show more maturity; this has been a difficult situation for everyone involved. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:22, 30 March 2018 (UTC)