Archives

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Note: Some of these topics are also being discussed at Wikipedia talk:Cite sources - you might want to check there too for relevant discussions.

I rewrote this section in response to a question on the Village Pump for more clarity. It is my intention to have it reflect de facto policy, not to introduce new policy: all featured article I've seen follow these guidelines. Also, I've removed the sentence that confusingly named "Overview" as a common title for the first section (is it really? Any prominent examples?) but simultaneously called it not to be preferred. Either "Overview" is a decent and acceptable title for the first section, or it isn't. If it isn't, then it shouldn't be mentioned, or else explicitly forbidden. A guide is not the best place for wishy-washyness. JRM 17:46, 2005 Jan 26 (UTC)

EVERY section should be present in the table of contents (that's technical writing 101), and in order for that to happen, the first section MUST have a section header. I generally call this first section "Overview". But recently, because of this "Guide to layout", I am now having to deal with people coming into an article and removing the first section's header! Please change the Guide to layout to reflect proper technical writing practice: if there is more than one section, and if any of those sections have headings, then every section, including the first one, should have a heading. -- BBlackmoor ^(talk), 2006-02-1 T 16:40 Z

Threeafterthree is misinterpreting this guideline to mean that See also sections shouldn't exist. His reasoning is that, either the link is already in the article, and therefore he deletes it; or it should be in the article, and therefore he deletes it until he can find a way to work it in. He is going through articles removing the See also sections based on this reasoning.

In fact, it's fine to have See alsos that are related to the article without being mentioned within it. That, indeed, is the whole point of the See also section. I'm therefore removing the following:

"Topics related to an article should be included within the text of the article. Topics that could not reasonably be made into article text probably do not belong in a see also section"

because it's this part of the guideline that is confusing him. But he is reverting my removal of it.

Does anyone else have a view? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have been trying to "clean up" articles by removing articles fron the See also section of articles that have already been linked to in the article per this guideline. Now an editor who disagrees with this has come here and changed this guideline to support his/her opinion of how this section should work. Can we please discuss this change here first? The guideline seems to make alot of sense as written. Thanks, --Tom (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)ps, I see that this was touched on before above. anyways,--Tom (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, Tom, you are removing links that are not in the article, on the grounds that they ought to be in it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, I removed the links since they were already linked at the bottom of the article. I then added them back saying that I would try to add them to the article per the guidelines over the next couple of days. You then came here and edited this guideline to support your position. I have now removed them again since you said the article was going to get a major rewrite and it wasn't worth arguing over. --Tom (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For example, here. I'd really appreciate some other input here, as I find it hard to cope with this kind of editing without resorting to a tone of "voice" I recently decided I'm not going to engage in anymore. :-) SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My feelings on the removal of the See also sections is that a See also section should not be removed until its link or links are already internal-linked within the article. In some cases, there is no way to internal-link a See also link or links within the significant body of the article, and in those cases...the See also section and its links that cannot be incorporated into the significant body of the article should remain as well. Flyer22 (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Slimvirgin has now distorted my original point with this edit. Is this appropirate to change a discusiion this way? I do NOT want to remove See also sections entirely UNLESS the artlicle(s) listed in them has been already linked to. See also sections SHOULD exist as the current guideline points out. Can I make that ANY clearer. SlimVirgin, please do not change discussion titles and put your comments ahead of mine and distort this. I really didn't appreciate that. --Tom (talk) 20:50, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, but that's not what you're doing. Here you removed the section, even though neither of these links is in the article, but both have direct relevance. And it's the third time (or so) that you've removed it, citing this guideline. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted that since there is an ongoing disagreement.What is up with changing the title of the discussion here and inserting your comments in front of mine?--Tom (talk) 21:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for reverting on that particular article, but could you address the broader point? You can't go around removing See also sections just because you think the links ought to be in the article. If they're not, they're not, and links can't always be forced in, and shouldn't always be forced in. Sometimes it's a good thing to draw people's attention to internal links that are related to the article, but not in a way that dictates they be included in it. That is the whole point of See also sections. The part of this guideline that implies otherwise does need to be removed, if that's how you're reading it -- or reworded in some way. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again Slim, I have ONLY been removing links inside of See also sections that are linked higher up in the article. The Mann article was an exception since we went back and forth. Please review my edit history and you will see that is the case. I understand the guideline as it is currently written and agree with it. Basically See also links are relevent articles that have not been incorporated into the article YET. Once and if they can be worked into the main article, the See also should be depopulated and removed. If a See also link is already linked in the article it should be definately removed, correct? Anyways, maybe if necessary that section of the guideline could be rewritten here and consensus reached on the best wording? Anyways, --Tom (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the section reads now: The "See also" section provides an additional list of internal links to other articles in Wikipedia that are related to this one as a navigational aid. A "See also" section should ideally not repeat links already present in the article, include links that are only vaguely related to the topic, or link to pages that do not exist. Topics related to an article should be included within the text of the article. Topics that could not reasonably be made into article text probably do not belong in a see also section.

A good practice is to treat subjects in a "See also" section as topics that could be worked into the article (and then the "See also" section deprecated and removed once those topics have been added).

Links are presented in a bulleted list and should usually be listed in alphabetical order.

A less common practice is to name the section "Related topics". "See also" is the most appropriate place to link a Portal with

It should be a heading of level 2 so that it appears in the table of contents. --Tom (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I generally disagree with Tom's opinions. Since this talk section is over month old I proose that it'll be moved to Proposed change to 'See also' guideline section. CrZTgR (talk) 07:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excerpt:

The section should not link to pages that do not exist, and a good rule of thumb is that it should not repeat links already present in the article.

I think that See also sections are useful in their own right, since sometimes one has neither the time nor inclination to read an entire article to discover other related subjects. I oppose this "rule of thumb" and suggest that relevant topics are included in the See also section, regardless of whether or not references to those articles are hidden away somewhere in the main body. ----Seans Potato Business 15:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with User:Seans Potato Business and I do not find anything wrong with repeating references to other articles in main body and then in See also section. If See also section becomes too long it could be sorted into one or more templates but not removed. CrZTgR (talk) 07:02, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree also. I often go to the See also section of an article, hoping to find links to closely related articles. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 07:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At the same time I disagree with Tom's opinions as presented in December 2007 (see above) CrZTgR (talk) 07:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. I find the advice in here very unhelpful, and it's being used by at least one editor to go around systematically removing not only links that are already in the article, but links he thinks ought to be in the article. Every time he does it, he links back to this page in his edit summaries. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 08:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Goodness, yes. I think there's a reasonable underlying point about not duplicating relatively unimportant wikilinks in the "see also" section. But if a link is really important and fundamental, the fact that it's also included inline in the text of a section should not mean removing it from the "see also" section. Two different issues. Wikidemo (talk) 10:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that "See also" sections should contain important links even if they are linked in the article although I think templates would definately be preferable wherever possible. Guest9999 (talk) 21:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly agree with this. I seldom have time to read a long article carefully, and I imagine that most people are the same. I think the "See also" section should be a compendium of links to related articles, preferably with brief annotations for each link. This would be really useful for any encyclopedia, and especially for Wikipedia, which tries to make maximum use of the hyperlink concept. Let's be useful, folks. — Aetheling (talk) 23:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although, if the same link appears in a template at the bottom of the article, that link probably shouldn't be repeated in the "See also" section. If a reader was looking for related links, most of the related links are found in the template(s) at the bottom of the article. --Silver Edge (talk) 12:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People might still want to highlight it for some reason. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 13:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If articles are already displayed predominantly using the {{see also}} and {{main}} at the start of the appropriate sections I see no need to put them into a see also section at the bottom. I use the see also section to put in relevant links for which I do not have the time or the inclination to embed into the text in the hope that in the future someone will come along and integrate the link into the text. But unfortunately some use selective links in the "see also" sections to push POVs. Does one then delete them saying an unbalanced POV or does one enter into an arms race of adding more and more links to a "see also" section? I think it is better if the "see also" sections are kept as small as possible (internal link farms and all that) "and a good rule of thumb is that it should not repeat links already present in the article." is useful in helping to police "See also" sections. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As people have said above, there are times when it's good to highlight certain links for readers' interest. Adding and removing links can both be used by POV pushers, unfortunately. All we can do is make sure the See also sections stay within a reasonable length. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 14:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the section "See also" is to be used the way some are suggesting then perhaps it should be renamed "Internal links" or some such name. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I strongly disagree with this change; it furthers POV wars and link farms within See also. Articles should be incorporated in the text and listed as See also only in very limited cases. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Since this guideline has been in place for at least a year and a half (I didn't check further back), broader discussion before removing it would be warranted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe a "See also" section is very helpful and should list links to closely related articles. I often can't think of what the title would be for a concept I'd like to read about, so I go to a related title and hope what I really want will be listed in the "See also" section. If these sections are being used in POV wars, delete the POV articles that are being linked to. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sandy - as a general rule links should not be repeated in the See Also section. As it is, many See Also sections are horribly long, and repeating links that are in the article is going to make them even longer and repetitive. If it's that necessary to have a large number of articles linked, put them in a list or a category and link to that (and only to that) in the See Also section. If the underlying issue is POV problems on specific pages, then this needs to be addressed on those pages - WP:NPOV always applies. Karanacs (talk) 21:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Sandy and Karanacs. I feel "See Also" sections should only list additional links, over and above those linked from the body of the article. Mike Christie (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to agree with Sandy as well. Let's not clutter up the bottom of every page with a long list of links that, while possibly relevant, have been linked probably twice already (once in the lead and once in the article body). — Dulcem (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the long-standing version. Before changing, broader discussion should be undertaken. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the goal is not to "clutter up the bottom of every page with a long list of links", it's not working. The effect is to encourage filling navigation templates with tons of links, repeating links from the article body and one or more tables. "See also" is a form of navigation for readers, and even if a topic is mentioned in the article body, a reader may not read the entire article. Some allowance should be made for listing related topics, even if they are linked somewhere in the text. I would rather see a short list of key related topics in "see also" than more bloated nav. templates. Gimmetrow 23:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Problem is, we'll get the navigational templates anyway, and end up with both. I've gotten stuck with nav templates I don't want, and fortunately, they can be made collapsible. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the proposal. See also sections as they stand are not especially useful, as they usually contain links to unimportant, loosely related articles while missing out on other pages that would definitely be of interest for the reader. The purpose of "see also" sections generally is to indicate other material that complements what you just read, but the way they are employed on Wikipedia seems to miss that point. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the issue of POV pushing applies to both options here. The current wording is being used by editors to remove links they don't want to see highlighted, which they do by adding them to the article, then removing them from See also, citing this guideline.

Having important links buried in the text and not listed in See also forces readers to look through the whole article to find them. But lots of people only want to scan articles quickly, and the See also section is something they're likely to look at to find related material. We should therefore offer it. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:12, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In general one shouldn't repeat a link if it's not likely to be helpful, and repeat it if it is helpful and not otherwise easy to notice and get to for someone quickly perusing the article. That's a matter of article length, organization, the link in question, the nature of the other links int he see also section, and a bunch of other things. It's an editorial decision. Do we really have to spell this out? Wikidemo (talk) 01:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, but I think it would be helpful to say what you've just said, instead of the current advice, which is leading to helpful links being removed. You're also right that we shouldn't have to spell these things out, but sadly ... :-) SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 04:10, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly. But Wikidemo's language does more than protect against abuse. Some people will always treat our suggestions mechanically; we should encourage editorial judgment. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that his language would be helpful because it does encourage editorial judgment. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:51, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed wording

Can someone put up some exact proposed wording so we can come to consensus without multiple changes? The concern is See also link farms, duplicating links already in the text and in navigational templates, used to push POV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion:

The "See also" section provides a list of internal links to related Wikipedia articles. As with all advice in guidelines, whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. As a rule of thumb, links already included in the body of the text are not repeated in See also, but they may be repeated if particularly helpful, interesting, or relevant, and not otherwise easy to notice. Red links should not be added to this section.

SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Current:

The "See also" section provides an additional list of related internal links to other articles in Wikipedia. As with all advice in guidelines, whether a link belongs in the "See also" section should be approached with common sense. The section should not link to pages that do not exist, and a good rule of thumb is that it should not repeat links already present in the article.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at them side by side, I don't see any difference, but I do see WP:CREEP in the proposed change. What is the difference? Both recommend editorial judgement, common sense, and rule of thumb. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is that this version explicitly says links may be repeated. The previous version didn't make this clear, so people were using it to go around removing links simply because they were already in the text, and in the case of one editor, was systematically going through articles removing links that he felt ought to be in the text. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All I see in the new proposal is subjective instruction creep; the problem of one editor should be sorted out via "should be approached with common sense" and "rule of thumb", which aren't prescriptive. This new wording opens the door to all kinds of disagreement over what constitutes "helpful, interesting and relevant". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:02, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ten people have posted above wanting to see the guideline changed to explicitly allow links in the text to be repeated in See also. So that's what this wording does. As a compromise, it also retains your preference that, as a rule of thumb, this shouldn't happen unless the links are particularly interesting. My own preference would be not to have the rule of thumb language at all, and I think that was the preference of all or most of the ten people who posted. But I retained it in my suggestion as a compromise between the two positions.

I agree that people will argue over what is "helpful," but people will argue regardless of the wording. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem here is that, as Wikidemo says, we're trying to legislate for common sense, which isn't possible. But what we want to stop are people removing links in the See also section for no reason other than this guideline saying links shoudn't be repeated i.e. for no editorial reason. That's the aim of any new wording. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 18:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"forces readers to look through the whole article to find them"

Readers who know what they are looking for should just go to the article. Readers who don't know what they are looking for aren't going to look through an article to find it. See also sections should be used minimally, and removed when possible. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

"Readers who don't know what they are looking for aren't going to look through an article to find it.". Exactly, but they might glance at the See also section. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 19:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no interest in providing links to those who read Wikipedia in a state of free association. That certainly is not the point of See also. We have sidebar templates on topics, we have nav templates on grouped articles, we have categories for loosely hierarchical organization. See also sections are a tacit admission that Wikipedia is perpetually incomplete and should be limited to topics the article does not already cover or link to. If we've already linked everything in a see also it should be removed, it's not there as an internal link farm. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

But people disagree with that, as you can see above. Therefore, we're trying to find compromise wording. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

People do disagree with that, which is why the current wording is already a compromise. What's wrong with it? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I meant that people disagree with the current wording, which is why this section was started. See above for the reasons. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 21:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a variety of opinion in the discussion without any overwhelming call for change. So as to your specific proposal, I oppose it. The added sentence will add to internal links farms, POV pushing, and even spam. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Why is the "particularly helpful, interesting, or relevant" phrase back? I don't see any new consensus for that, only opposition. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are ten people above who want that section changed. If you can propose better wording, please do, but there's no consensus not to allow links to be repeated. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 17:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are not ten people who've shown consensus for your proposed change. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

The proposed wording seems fine. As an example of an article where I think the current wording causes problems, take a look at right triangle. In this article I think that if Pythagorean theorem isn't linked in the first few sentences, it should appear in see also, but this is prohibited by the current wording because the term is already linked deep within the body of the article. All in all, I agree that links should not be repeated if they are already in the lead, but otherwise believe that important links ought to appear in see also even if they are being repeated. Christopher Parham (talk) 19:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added your point about the lead. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:09, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SV, you've got two people saying they oppose the wording, and two people saying it is ok. That's not a discussion with consensus for you to insist on making the change. You want this change to get the upper hand in your own edit wars on other articles. It's not good faith to push the issue here. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

How on earth would this change give me the upper hand in edit wars, and what edit wars? I'm actually not keen on long See alsos with lots of repeated links. Your assumption of bad faith is astonishing.

We have 11 people saying they don't want the current wording. I'm going to remove the sentence people are objecting to, then we can discuss what to replace it with, if you don't like the wording I added. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 20:51, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see much of a difference between the two versions, except the current version uses 'should', which I like. Here's a suggestion:

The "See also" section provides a list of internal links to related Wikipedia articles. Though generally this section should not repeat articles already linked in the body text, links that editors agree are particularly helpful, interesting or relevant may be repeated, particularly if they are not prominent in the body. Red links should not be added to this section.

I like it because it places emphasis on editorial consensus and relative prominence, and uses 'should', which is proscriptive enough to make people think. My ¥0.5 WLU (talk) 00:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree with the "links that editors agree" part of that wording. That can, and in some cases will, be read as empowering one disagreeing editor to assert a veto. I also disagree with wording saying, e.g., "where there is a consensus", which can be read as requiring a consensus to be demonstrated in order to reverse the removal of a link. I haven't been following this discussion, but the current wordding,

The "See also" section provides a list of internal links to related Wikipedia articles. Whether a link belongs in the "See also" section is a matter of editorial judgment and common sense. The section should not link to pages that do not exist.

looks fine to me. Thnkering with that in an attempt to explicitly define "editorial judgment and common sense" in this context invites wikilawyering, IMHO. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I strongly disagree with the removal of the long-standing consensus wording, and a good rule of thumb is that it should not repeat links already present in the article. Also, the edit warring that occurred today is inexcusable; I believe SV knows that WP:3RR doesn't excuse three reverts. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the guideline for the stylization of links appearing in See also? Should it be considered as "see these articles" or "see these subjects"? To illustrate, this is a problem I see often (ignoring the problem that these are redlink examples):

==See also==
*Uniquely Titled Movie
*Movie With A Common Title (1999 film)
*List of similar films

The problem, to me, is that the disambiguation tag in the second link should not be italicized, as it is not part of the movie's title. On the other hand, if you italicize only the actual title, the resulting link has a somewhat awkward appearance since it has mixed stylization. This is assuming that the link should be italicized at all. The other option would be that all links in this section be treated as article names rather than as prose; thus not requiring any stylization. That is, the links in this section should be read as "see the Uniquely Titled Movie article" rather than "see the article on Uniquely Titled Movie". Ham Pastrami (talk) 04:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would also be worth discussing whether the links in See also should be piped, or whether it is preferable to show the actual article name for the same reasons as in disambig. Ham Pastrami (talk) 04:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This seems to be the most suitable place to put this. Something in the layout of this article that I am working on is placing the [edit] buttons for the Background section and the Prelude to the battle section next to each other, just below the line of the latter section. The image of the typical Viet Minh ambush is also partly covering the first sentence. Is this a layout issue? Does anyone know what I can do to fix it, or where I should ask? SGGH ^speak! 10:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The header to the page starts "This page documents a style guideline" yet the lead goes on to say "This guide is not... about style". Could this be clarified, it seems a bit contadictary. Guest9999 (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the current suggested default ordering. It seems to me that the default ordering should go specific -> related, whereas we're going specific, related, specific, which seems a bit odd.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 20:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words shouldn't 'see also' be at the end because its not very much about the topic, it points you to other related topics and articles, whereas all the other sections are specifically and intimately about the article topic.

Was this discussed anywhere to a conclusion?- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 20:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that the "See also" section comes before "Notes", "References", and "External links" due to the fact that it contains internal rather than external links. In other words, it directs readers to other articles within Wikipedia rather than to external websites. – Black Falcon ^(Talk) 05:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Flyer22 (talk) 02:19, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That effectively is saying that the wikipedia is more important than the topic, that we should reference ourselves, rather than reference according to the needs of the topic. Shouldn't importance refer to the topic, since the article is about a particular topic, and the contents of 'see also' is inevitably peripheral to the topic?- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 16:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's just saying to the reader at the end of the article, "Now that you're here, you might also want to see this and this on the same site." Then we move on to what's on other sites. The order has been that way ever since I started editing. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's an advert. Great, so the wikipedia has advertising breaks in the middle of the article, by policy... ;-)- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 16:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also share Wolfkeeper's skepticism. If we say that See also should come before References because it points to internal pages, wouldn't that also justify placing stubs and navboxes above external links? Keeping in mind of course, that navboxes generally replace overgrown See also sections -- why does putting them in a box cause them to move down the article? There doesn't seem to be much logic in this ordering -- especially since the internal links of a stub/navbox are listed under External links. I'd also agree that Notes/References, which pertain to the article at hand, should be located closer to the article's content than a section that explicitly points outside the article (not all Notes/References do). It's strange to have to skip over See also every time you click on a footnote link. Ham Pastrami (talk) 18:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that much of a hassle to skip over the See also section every time you click on a footnote or a reference, since clicking on a footnote or reference skips over it for you. Anyway, I've thought of the points you've brought up as well, but still see logic in the way the layout for the See also section already is. Plus, changes like this are a hassle, because it means that we'd then have to change a lot of articles accordingly. And there's plenty of editors who won't be aware of the new placement for the See also section, if this were to take effect, unless they somehow get word. It's not like most editors check the layout format constantly, not when the layout guide is not supposed to be something that constantly changes. Some aren't even aware of the exact proper formatting for the layout guide anyway. Flyer22 (talk) 20:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that's really a problem, plenty of things aren't done right anyway; maybe it's more a question of what the reader really wants, I suppose in most cases they would be more interested in 'see also' sections than the references, so it makes more sense for the reader to have see also first.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 17:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If a Section has subsections, should all the see also links go at the beginning of the main section rather than under the subsection heading where they apply? An example is here [1] where the subsections printing and photography have main articles link under the header. I was told they all have to go at the top of the main section but this seems a bit confusing and less clear than the way they are currently. However, the guildeline on the page just says "section" with no reference for what to do with subsections. Thank you. pschemp | talk 01:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think they can go under the subsection headings that they're most relevant to. That's the way I do it anyway. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 16:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You may have misunderstood, pschemp ("There are Further details and See also templates in the middle of sections: they belong at the top."), as in this version. These templates go under the section heading before the text, per this and, for example, the instructions on each template (see {{See also}}). What you have in the article now is correct. Someone else may have corrected them before you saw the comment, which may have confused you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there a link to Wikipedia talk:Footnotes/Mixed citations and footnotes? This seems unorthodox for several reasons. First, it's a talk page without an accompanying article, even though its content is intended to be an article. Secondly, the small number of edits to that page combined with a lack of discussion seems to indicate that this did not result from a collaborative editing process. Finally, it introduces a method of combining notes and references in a manner which I have not yet seen in the wild, and is not elegant enough to encourage adoption (over simply combining a "Notes and references" section). Was this added by consensus? If not, I think it ought to be removed. Ham Pastrami (talk) 08:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I decided to remove the links since no one has commented. I raised questions about it on the author's talk page and he did not respond either. Ham Pastrami (talk) 12:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like clarification on a point in order to (hopefully) put an end to an incredibly slow edit war. Note 2 under the section "Standard appendices and descriptions appears to suggest "Notes and references" is the recommended heading for footnotes which are both comments and citations, yet the paragraph under "Notes" gives an example of a citation which is headed "Notes". (And then there's the further confusion supplied by Wikipedia talk:Footnotes/Mixed citations and footnotes, which I see has already been brought up.)

Question is simple: Given that its footnotes are both citations and commentary, should Regina's historic buildings and precincts have "Notes and references" or just "Notes"? --Sturm 10:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Either; it doesn't much matter. If I were Jimbo, I'd probably make it "notes", because "Notes and references" suggests footnotes and a bibliography, and this is only footnotes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:06, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree, it doesn't really matter, but one thing you could do is determine if the non-reference notes are really necessary -- if they can be moved into the article without disrupting its flow, then do so; if the commentary is not NPOV, it should be deleted. Note #38 in particular seems to be synthesizing a lot of information instead of properly sourcing it or deferring to another wiki article. If you're able to get rid of all the notes, then you're just left with "references" and that solves that. Ham Pastrami (talk) 13:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]