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1

This is an essay. The content for this essay comes from real-life experience with real-life divas. Paraphrasing a quote from a user to this policy without linking or mentioning who that quote came from is not "harassment". There is no censorship here. Ihardlythinkso (talk · contribs), clearly a user with an extensive history of disruption when looking at the block log for this account, has been edit-warring with me on this, and it is not appreciated or needed. The edit summary accusing me of "representing the worse of WP's hostility & nastiness" is repugnant and unfounded. Doc talk 07:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You have no credibility, Doc. You're simply dishonest, and attempting to harass Eric Corbett thru your post. Remember this?:

I haven't posted there [Eric Corbett's User talk] since my last post, and I don't plan on it. It seems pretty clear I'd be blocked for "harassment" if I were to ever post there again. Doc talk 06:22, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

You added the harassing post and I reverted you, then you claimed I should do WP:BRD on it, which is arse-backwards. (Another proof of your disingenuousness.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not Eric Corbett's page, and I haven't posted there since I said that. I never brought his name up here - you did. Your block log, frankly, sucks. I take little stock in your credibility, as I've never been blocked for TE and the like. And you ain't going to get me to do it. Doc talk 08:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More dishonesty from you ...

Your edit sum:

No links, paraphrased. Simply the perfect summation of the diva mentality, You can't make this shit up. Brilliant!

Your post:

"Wikipedia needs me far more than I need Wikipedia."

What Eric Corbett wrote:

Wikipedia needs me far more than I need Wikipedia. User:Eric Corbett 23:26, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

(So where's the "paraphrase", liar?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 08:26, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't link or attribute any quote to any particular editor. No reader would come along and think that quote to be "harassment". Harassment of who? And you'd better stop calling me a liar. Your block log is making more sense with every attack you make. Kicking me off your talk page (a classic way to both get the last word and simultaneously set up groundwork for a "baiting" claim): unimpressive. Doc talk 08:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're such a paper tiger. (And so full of BS. Are you an "encyclopedia builder"? I think not. You should be blocked. Drmies was right, you are a "disruptor". Go soak your head.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:23, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More attacks. There's no question who the proven "disruptor" is here. Let's compare block logs before deciding who should be blocked. Go play chess. Doc talk 10:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is a fine essay. I want to see a section on "What DIVA is now" OR "Don't misinterpret Diva". For example

• Not all personal experience is DIVA argument: Very recently I said an editor "I Have seen many times non-English redirects being nominated for deletion". I have ACTUALLY seen it. I was telling him my experience. Nothing else.
• DIVA is not a weapon of spammers and trolls': So that they will use this page to close any protester's/admin's mouth.

More importantly—

• Real incidents: We are not bots. We may have emotions. And after some conflicts and/or disputes or for any other reason we may need short breaks. Wikipedia also suggests to take such breaks. After an article move in November, I was so upset, I took a short Wikibreak, though I did not announce or write about the Wikibreak anywhere. Not all retirements or wikibreaks are DIVAs.

Tito☸Dutta 22:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I added a {{CN}} tag. Jânio Quadros mentions the resignation initiated "serious political crisis". I am not sure "good for who"? --Tito☸Dutta 22:58, 14 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This essay only tells us what to do if you're a member of the diva's entourage. But if you're a follower then the appropriate thing to do is to fulfill your destiny and fawn all over the diva, "Oh please, don't go! Don't go! We need you too much! We love you!" What I'd like to know is, how to deal with a diva when you're one of the little people, the toe-steppers busy being squashed by the diva and the diva's entourage of heavies. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:51, 7 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Don't feed the divas → ? – Precedent: Move of WP:Don't be a dick to WP:Don't be a jerk, which didn't even involve any issues relating to WP:BIAS against women. The message of this essay (don't engage, or enable others to engage, in "entitled" demands to get one's way, especially through threats to quit the project) is important, but it offends (I've caught heat for even mentioning it) for the sole reason that its title and a few bits of its wording are pretty much the same thing as having this be at "WP:BITCH". There has to be a way to express this without being misogynistic, when Wikipedia's main point of criticism in academia and the press is a hostile editing environment for, and poor coverage of, women.[1][2][3]   I detest unwarranted "political correction" and picking at "microaggressions", so if I find this troubling, it's probably inappropriate in an encyclopedia project. It's a PR and WP:Editor retention problem. It also defeats the point of the essay, which (as with WP:JERK) is intended to reduce strife, not generate more of it. The name no longer makes sense anyway, since its referent, WP:Don't feed the trolls is now WP:Deny recognition. I suggest many alternatives below (WP:Deny entitlement, etc.). If we kept the current name style, I'm not sure what a good replacement term would be. "Royalty" came to mind first.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:37, 14 June 2015 (UTC) [Revised and re-launched; it wasn't showing up in WP:RM the first time for some reason. 06:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)][reply]

• Oppose; I don't see that the current title needs a rename. It conveys the message far better than "royalty" would. While diva usually refers to a woman, the WP:Diva essay is clear that it's gender-neutral. Since bitch is mentioned in this section, I point out that bitch has increasingly referred to men over the years. I wouldn't mind a WP:BITCH essay, but we already have WP:Don't be a jerk. And, by the way, I disliked when WP:Don't be a dick was changed to WP:Don't be a jerk. Also, if anyone thinks that I don't have a problem with these titles because I'm male, that's not it; I'm female. Flyer22 (talk) 15:59, 14 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, I'm not wedded to "royalty"; just the first idea off the top of my head, and there are many more ideas below. The rest of that I've refuted in detail here. None of this constitutes a source- or policy-based (or clear common-sense-based) rationale against the move.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  I don't mind supporting this essay being moved to WP:TANTRUM or WP:HISSYFIT, though. I don't see a problem with those alternatives. Flyer22 (talk) 02:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Seems like pandering to a politically correct issue that isn't even really there. Divas are not exclusively female. I don't know a proper equivalent to encompass male divas without stepping on imaginary toes, but "royalty" is not it. All royals are not divas, obviously. I helped write a lot of this article, and none of my RL inspirations were female. WP has notoriously few female editors, as we well know. And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other. Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors. The title should remain as it is. Doc talk 06:12, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've refuted this in detail here. You've provided no source- or policy-based (or clear common-sense-based) rationale against moving the page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose because the current title is hilarious while getting straight to an important point. GregKaye 19:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Support: Redirect to WP:DENY, though something non-gendered like WP:TANTRUM has a ring to it. WP:JERK covers the rest. While the labels like troll, dick and diva have a ring to them for the frustrated, I can't think of one single time they have been used and resulted in a positive outcome. It's merely a method by which people can vent their spleen at someone else. Frankly, no one on the receiving end is going to take it to heart and just say, "oh my, I am so sorry I was being a [fill in the blank], I most sincerely promise to take your admonition to heart and change my [fill in the blank]-ish ways." And yes, there are sexist implications, as there are for the b-word; just because slang is evolving new uses doesn't negate the power a word has when used in a more typically offensive fashion. Montanabw^(talk) 19:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Montanabw, WP:DENY is discussing a different matter than this essay. And as for a Wikipedia editor realizing the error of their ways after being called a dick or a diva, some do. And I don't see how calling an editor a jerk or indicating that they should not be one results in "a positive outcome" more so than the "dick" and "diva" alternatives. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that the content of these essays sometimes does actually change people's approach. But this only happens when they can get past the label and the not-even-slightly-veiled insult. Which isn't often. This essay in particular would be vastly more effective if it addressed the "I'm going to quit if I lose" pattern (not the people using it), which is very frequent, and not only used by habitual "divas". It's very often used by subject-matter experts who have not adjusted yet, and are used to academic deference because of their credentials. I shudder to think how many have left and never come back after this essay was cited to or about them. I know of one for certain. Actually two, now that I think back aways (a published dermatology personage working on one of the albinism articles). WP:JERK I would not change. It's a different case. It's not addressing one narrow, specifically addressable debate tactic, but is speaking to an overall pattern of assholery. It's kind of a last resort "snap out of it" move to cite that. WP:DIVA is not. It's more like reminding people of Godwin's law. And making nazi (or other genocidal) metaphors to "win" debates is just as much a curable habit as threatening to take your ball and go home, I'd wager.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - I like Montanabw's idea of WP:TANTRUM. Perhaps WP:HISSYFIT would be a tad better though there's some suggestion this might come from hysteria? Might I suggest the humorous WP:Don't feed the drama llamas as well. Also agree that gendered insults, even when applied to another gender, are still gendered insults. When calling a man a bitch, you're saying he's acting like a woman, and that's intended to be insulting to him for some reason. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 22:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of people restrict the term bitch in that way, when applied to a man; others don't. Flyer22 (talk) 11:46, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move to any title which isn't sexist or abrasive. If Doc and others don't care about the historical context of words or the perpetuation of sexism in society, they're entitled to their opinion; and we're entitled to not taking that opinion very seriously. Alakzi (talk) 11:23, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  As anyone can clearly see from the opening line, it is not "sexist". "A Wikipedia diva is a long-time user who believes he or she is more important than other editors, and who requires regular validation of that belief." The "he or she" part should clue one in really quick. Abrasive? How should we describe people like this then? In flowery, politically correct terminology? Half of you miss the entire point of the essay to begin with. Not everyone here is holding hands and singing Kumbaya. That's why we have pages like this. Doc talk 06:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Historically, "diva" refers to women who are said to be self-important. A gendered pejorative is, by definition, sexist. Though derogatory words for women have come to be used against both sexes, the association is not altogether lost. It is irrelevant whether you did or did not intend for it to be sexist; the continued use of gendered pejoratives contributes to the perpetuation of a male-domineered gender-binary society. Alakzi (talk) 10:55, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - The current title is clear, descriptive and on-point. Without even reading the essay, one immediate groks the advice just by the title. It is in no way misogynistic. Used informally, diva has the same meaning as prima donna: "a person who thinks she or he is better than everyone else and who does not work well as part of a team or group". None of the alternatives that I have seen so far come close to being as meaningful and recognizable as the current title.- MrX 11:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: The cases are not comparable. As far as I understand it, "Dick" is an open insult, while "diva" is just an adjetive with a negative meaning. Both are words that someone would not like to be described with, but they are not in the same location in the sliding scale of words to describe people. And, by the way, whatever its origins are, in modern usage "diva" is not a gender-specific adjetive. Haven't you seen The Avengers? Cambalachero (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the way, if we translated a "tantrum" into behavior specific for wikipedia (of course, none of us are toddlers, so there are no real tantrums in this page), a WP:TANTRUM redirect should actually point to Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point Cambalachero (talk) 11:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. "Sock" and "vandal" names can have some objective justification. "Diva" is subjective and open to abuse (duh, like it isn't/hasn't been used abusively?!; isn't that why it is here - to satisfy the need to be abusive - WP's hallmark character trait?). An incremental improvement in ocean of WP hypocrisy. WP s/n be sanctifying or encouraging name-calling per WP:NPA (duh). IHTS (talk) 21:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Trying to argue that the term diva isn't gendered requires some pretty tortured reasoning. "Well, I don't mean it that way" misses the point. WP:TANTRUM sounds like a good alternative. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the claimed precedent was more offensive than the name here. I get the feeling that the reason that some (but not all above) do not like the title, is because they are behaving like the diva described in the essay. This includes the long diatribes. However people mostly do not like to be called "divas", whether male or female. The name of this is not so much an issue, but the way people may be accused of being a diva. The term diva is commonly used in English to those making an undue fuss, so the current name is appropriate. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't see the point in suggesting that the accusation is the problem, and then engaging in the accusation, just to cast doubt on people that disagree with you. That said, I agree with your premise, and it's the motivator of the move request and the suggestion for some rewording. I go into this in more detail in the discussion at #Name ideas, below. Short version: It's the behavior pattern we want to address not some personality "type" we want to give the finger to. So having this essay be at a pejorative label at all is counter-productive. PS: If as you say the current name matches the [slang, not opera] usage of the word, why would that make it "appropriate" when there are other problems with it? "Stupid jackass" probably accurate describes lots of editorial behavior too, but we wouldn't tolerate an essay named that, I'd bet.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• If I can !vote on my own proposal I really like WP:TANTRUM. I crack up every time I see it. I guess that doesn't help with "what the whole title should be". In Googling for "hissy fit etymology", I find tentative etymological connections to "hussy" and to "hysterical", though, so that has the same issue as "diva".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Debated etymology, but yeah. TANTRUM is a fine option. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 20:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support any move to a non-gendered title. "Political correctness" or no, as the nom says, this is a PR and retention issue. Wikipedia has a hard enough time attracting female editors as it is, we don't need to make it even harder on ourselves.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, what about "Don't feed the high-maintanence editors (HME's)"? Any objection to that? There is nothing gendered in that title at all. Doc talk 06:37, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Name ideas

• This essay was named in homage to / mimicry of WP:Don't feed the trolls, but that's now at WP:Deny recognition, so the present title of this essay is essentially nonsensical, having no referent for the odd diva-feeding pseudo-metaphor, except in the memories of WP old-timers. WP:Deny entitlement, WP:Deny enabling. It could move to something completely different, e.g. WP:No hissy-fits, WP:Don't threaten to quit in a huff, WP:Don't take your ball and go home, WP:Then take your ball and actually go home, WP:You can't "win" by quitting, WP:Proof by door-slamming, WP:Argument by tantrum, WP:Quadros' law, WP:Conniption fail, WP:Bailing is not an argument, WP:Don't let the door..., WP:Threats to leave are not a debate, WP:Resign or don't threaten to resign, WP:Get on with it or zip it, WP:Wikipedia is not the playground, WP:Threats to storm off are a concession of debate, WP:Storming out, WP:Just go, WP:Run away! Run away!, etc., etc. Mix and match, see what makes you laugh but also gets the message across. Some would need a new sentence added to the text, e.g. to account for playground and taking your ball and going home references, or the Monty Python reference, etc. I think I'd favor one that didn't suggest people actually quit, for WP:Editor retention reasons. Then again, in my experience, people who threaten to quit over editing disputes usually cause more trouble than they are worth; it's a WP:5THWHEEL thing.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  06:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  None of these titles describe the type of editor that is a "diva". Sugar-coating it or sweeping it under the rug will not make this sort of individual less identifiable, nor immune to extra scrutiny. Doc talk 07:16, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No one is a "type", unless they have some form of psychosis and are literally incapable of change. These are all behavior patterns. The point of an essay like this is not "get the #$%* off Wikipedia and never come back, you nutjob!" It's "these behaviors do not work here, and you won't fare well here unless you adjust." And, of course "Everyone else, don't enable this stuff." Trying to assign the behavior pattern to a mythical "type" that may not really be evidenced in all the ways that conform to the stereotype in question is what sweeps it under the rug. We're not trying to sniff out a "sort of individual", but "sort of behavior". The less it's tied to a stereotype, the more readily it is applied to people who use it, e.g., only when they feel cornered on some issue they feel really strongly about, but who would otherwise not go there. This comes up fairly often. Much more so that truly nutter "divas" who can't even see that they're engaging in this behavior. Otherwise this page would have been WP:MFD'd a long time ago, along with all the patently hostile essays that were deleted. Fortunately this one is not written that way entirely, and to the extent it is it can be fixed easily.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have only just seen this page for the first time and I read the Talk here before the Article. After reading the Talk, I was in favour of Motanabw's (I think) suggestion of Tantrum. This indicates rather childish behaviour on the part of the editor, but what do you call a person having a tantrum....a tantrumer, tantrumee (not a serious question)? I then read the article and it actually covers a lot of behavioural issues, rather than just walking off. However, to my mind, the article covers all these in the second-last sentence where it discusses these editors as being "high maintenance". How about WP:Don't feed high maintenance editors (HMEs)?DrChrissy ^(talk) 10:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If it simply has to be renamed because of possible sexism reasons (amazing it's just now been caught), this is the best alternative so far. All the others describe an action instead of a type of editor. Which is why this essay was created to begin with. Otherwise: nominate it for deletion again.[4] Whitewashing and sanitizing this essay because it might "label" or "offend" people? Hogwash. Doc talk 09:59, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have just thought of a tweak to my suggestion above - how about WP:Don't be high maintenance. It's more concise, it is directed straight at the problematic editor (rather than "Don't feed the..." which is directed at other editors), it can be used as a warning as problems escalate as well as a last-ditch effort if an editor is threatening to leave, it is non-sexist, I think it has inherent international understanding, and in my opinion, it is less judgemental and more likely to make the problematic editor think about their actions rather than escalating to the point where they leave.DrChrissy ^(talk) 11:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This essay would still have to be entirely and fundamentally rewritten to accommodate the new "non-label" style. I vote against that as well. Doc talk 06:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Google tells me that "high-maintenance" is a gendered term as well.[5][6] It can be applied to men (and cars and complex technology), but it's mostly applied to women. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

HME is the best option I've seen so far in this PC reversion wave of madness. Men, women and those that identify as transgender can all be an HME (or a freaking diva, for that matter). Doc talk 06:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Flyer22's oppose

'I don't see that the current title needs a rename. It conveys the message far better than "royalty" would. While diva usually refers to a woman, the WP:Diva essay is clear that it's gender-neutral. Since bitch is mentioned in this section, I point out that bitch has increasingly referred to men over the years. I wouldn't mind a WP:BITCH essay, but we already have WP:Don't be a jerk. And, by the way, I disliked when WP:Don't be a dick was changed to WP:Don't be a jerk. Also, if anyone thinks that I don't have a problem with these titles because I'm male, that's not it; I'm female.'

@Flyer22: The exact content of the essay (if they read it) is not going to assuage the "what is this sexist crap?!" reaction many women experience when seeing this page title or its shortcut. The #1 criticism of Wikipedia in the last 5 years or so has been anti-female bias, both in what our content covers and in our editing community. There's a quite large body of both scholarly papers and media coverage on that issue.[7][8][9] In the face of this, and my original points, an I-don't-see-a-big-problem-with-it response isn't much of a rationale; it's WP:ILIKEIT). Same goes for the I-just-disagree approach (the negative form of WP:PERNOM); you have not actually refuted any argument I've made, just registered unclear disagreement with it. The fact that hip hop and teenager slang uses "bitch" or "beeatch" to refer to males sometimes is irrelevant (and misses the point - it's not a gender-neutral term, it's using a female slur to extra-offend a male. That's exactly the case with "diva" to refer to a male, too; it's still female slur. In both cases the vast majority of usage is aimed at women). "Bitch" isn't the title at issue here. The fact that the article is written gender-neural is only marginally relevant, when then issue is mostly reactions to the title itself and resultant impressions of Wikipedia, during a media storm of "Wikipedia is a cesspool of misogyny". It doesn't really matter that these claims are exaggerated; they're a huge PR problem for the project, the worst it's ever had, and the hardest to fix. Why? Because the only way to even slightly adjust the "sausage party" problem it is to attract a very large number of new female editors. Page names like this only hinder that effort, for absolutely zero gain. I have no problem with crude fucking language, in context. >;-) But I'm glad WP:DICK is now WP:JERK, for a reason that gives yet another rationale for this move: It was nearly impossible to use either WP:DICK or WP:DIVA without pissing off anyone referred to it, simply because of the name, and thereby probably increasing their likelihood of being dickish or diva-ish, when the intent of both essays is to reduce this tendency.

All of this together is way more than enough reason to move this page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  05:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish, the WP:Ping didn't work, but there is no need to WP:Ping me to this page; it's been on my WP:Watchlist for about a year. Maybe two years. Anyway, what proof is there that, generally, women will see this essay and state or think "What is this sexist crap?!"? I also saw no such proof regarding the proposal to change WP:Dick to WP:Jerk. And it's not like anyone can't still currently state/link to WP:Dick if they wanted to. As for claims that Wikipedia is misogynistic and has few female editors, I know all of that. Some editors know just how well I know all of that. And when it comes to arguing what terms are used to offend and/or oppress women, I've certainly had ample say at Talk:Cunt. But I don't see how changing these essay names is a step toward getting more female editors. I see it as generalizing what women will find offensive. I, for example, do not find them offensive to my sex/gender. Well, if the term diva was used to refer to women as a whole for whatever reason, then that is a different matter for me. If a male or a female editor is being a diva, then that is what that male or female editor is being. And WP:Dick? It can be argued that it should offend males more than females, given that its usage usually refers to males. And, yes, I understand that part of the reason its title was changed is because dick usually refers to males. Wikipedia is often a tough place for women, and I've gotten used to that, even by playing hardball right back. These name change matters are things that I do not see doing anything significant for Wikipedia (except for some people being less offended by jerk as opposed to dick). But if people want to close that gender gap, Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force is the place specifically designed to get more female editors. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm skeptical we need "proof" that traditionally woman-targeted slurs are offensive to a large number of women, even if slang usage has started applying them to men. I got vented at, and even accused of being a diva myself (yes, see above), for going on at length and responding point by point in these discussions, so I'll stop here (unless you ask me to respond to the rest). PS: It's not hard to find material about "diva" being considered offensive or sexist or misogynistic, with some obvious Google searches.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Doc9871's oppose

'Seems like pandering to a politically correct issue that isn't even really there. Divas are not exclusively female. I don't know a proper equivalent to encompass male divas without stepping on imaginary toes, but "royalty" is not it. All royals are not divas, obviously. I helped write a lot of this article, and none of my RL inspirations were female. WP has notoriously few female editors, as we well know. And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other. Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors. The title should remain as it is.'

Taking these points in order: "Seems like pandering": Already explained why it's not. "not really there": So, none of these articles really exist? [10][11][12] etc. "Divas are not exclusively female": Already addressed that in great detail. "I don't know a proper equivalent": OK. Someone might, and probably 50+ viable names can be constructed just from moving words around in the possibilities I brain-dumped below. "Royalty is not it": Sure, it was just one of many ideas. "All royalty are not divas": All divas in the normal sense are not divas in the slang sense, either, and not all behaviors addressed in the guideline are necessarily "diva" behaviors. There's an obvious focus problem here. The label, while funny to some (including me) isn't the important part, the disruptive behaviors are. Keeping the name is not worth the offensiveness level.

I wasn't going to go into this, but I know directly of one long-term, pain-in-the-ass, but actually highly productive, subject-matter expert, female editor who actually did quit the project in part over this template being cited at her (offensive because of its name, not its message); she quit in larger part for various other things that had been bugging her for a long time. It wasn't the last nail in the coffin but it was very close to it, probably the next-to-last. She's exercised WP:Right to vanish, so I'll just call her KvdL.

"I helped write a lot of this article": Great, and good job, but you don't get a supervote at RM. "None of my RL inspirations were female": Already addressed this: It's about reactions, and perception fallout. 'The road to Hell is paved with good intentions', as they say. "WP has notoriously few female editors": Yes, that's the whole point! See the external links I just provided. WP has few female editors because of systemic, if low-level and thoughtless, misogyny (or "stuff that is being perceived as misogyny", functionally equivalent for purposes of this discussion; it's not about intentions.) "And that has nothing to do with this little essay one way or the other.": External data strongly suggests otherwise. This one page by itself isn't the source of this problem, but its title is obviously part of it. We do not have to fix every single gender-related problem on WP all at the same time (WP:OTHERCRAP); fixing this one is part of a long process. And size of the essay has no bearing on anything. "Changing the title will not open the welcome wagon to female editors": It wont hurt, and it will be part of the ongoing process. That's sufficient. Cf. the Nirvana fallacy; perfection is not required for a move toward improvement to be made. "The title should remain as it is": WP:ILIKEIT.

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:02, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Perhaps you believe that meticulously dissecting my oppose will somehow a) nullify it, b) make others weigh your "refutation" over my opinion, or c) miraculously make me change my mind. Good luck with all that, and the rename. Doc talk 07:11, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• These are discussions, not votes. A) Did you believe that responding with various points against my move proposal would nullify it? A counter-argument to an argument is intended to counter it, yes. B) I'm not sure who "others" are. If you mean am I trying to skew comments after yours by where I'm commenting, no; I realized the responses were long, so I collapseboxed them; then made a Discussion section and moved them here instead, but you editconflicted me while I was doing that last part. If you mean do I hope later commenters consider my comments and yours and that they find my reasoning more applicable? Of course. If you mean do I hope that the closing admin will find my arguments more compelling? Of course. Why else would I make them, just for typing practice? C) Why would it take a miracle for you to think about multiple sets of arguments, weigh them, and adjust your views accordingly? People do very frequently change their mind in RMs and XfDs. Try it sometime?  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• The "point-by-point" style you are using is a major turn-off, possibly the most annoying "counter-argument" style possible. I've been here for a long time, and I know how it affects others. Do as you will. But oftentimes: the less you say the better. It's called being "succinct". I doubt you are swaying anyone at all by this tired method of refutation. I've said my piece for now. Doc talk 07:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• It's easier to respond to the arguments by quoting them and replying to them inline than paraphrasing and responding from scratch. It took longer than I wanted to respond to Flyer22, in the latter style, so I switched to the faster style in responding to you. I don't use it frequently, just when I want to get on with it

  You seem to be expecting to be able to make arguments that no one may respond to. I generally don't ignore arguments people make unless they're incomprehensible or off-topic, or I don't actually care about anything but some specific point. I'm sure if feels like "less is more" when it equates to "only one of my points has been challenged, so the other 7 should more strongly affect the outcome". >;-) I agree that the block of text would have been shorter without the quoting. While I like it when people bother to go through discussions before !voting, it usually doesn't happen; I don't expect it. I feel, I think, the same way about extremely brief, only-address-1-out-of-7-arguments responses, as you do about ones that hit 7 of 7. I don't get your meaning with "tired method of refutation"? Do you mean the quoting, the "failure" to ignore most of your points, or that I disagreed with you? The first I get, the other two do not compute. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• "I doubt you are swaying anyone at all by this tired method of refutation." What's tiring to read are attacks on the form of an argument (or counter-argument) not the substance. (How's that for being "succinct"?) IHTS (talk) 10:05, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• IHTS: go add another anti-WP quote to your little userpage. Doc talk 02:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I see. Your ad hominem invite to go off-topic w/ scrappy catfight isn't another demo of argumentation style? And your adding extensively to the essay's bullet list of qualifiers to permit max application of name-call "diva" ... isn't polemic?! (Got it.) IHTS (talk) 21:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• See above. And try to refrain from personal attacks, as they apparent can get one blocked. Doc talk|

SMcCandlish, I know which female editor you are talking about (the "KvdL" part gave it away); and since I did not get along with her, I won't comment any further on that in this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NP, on KvdL. LOL: I thought IHTS's "What's tiring to read are attacks on the form of an argument (or counter-argument) not the substance." was a criticism of my point-by-point style and reliance on fallacy-citing.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should just nominate it for deletion again. Because WP:TANTRUM sucks, and it cannot be worked into "repairing" the essay once it is gutted of all intended meaning. Doc talk 10:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Point of Order

The nominator stated above that, "having this essay be at a pejorative label at all is counter-productive." Changing the title of the essay to something like WP:TANTRUM is not even in line with something like WP:BIGOT. Should that essay be renamed, since it is a label? Doubtful. How about WP:BULLINCHINA? That's a label typically reserved for a clumsy oaf: very insulting! Is it the perceived sexist undertones of the label "diva" that is the real issue here? Or is it the actual using of a label in an essay title to describe an editor in a potentially negative light? There are more essays to nominate for deletion if that is the case. Doc talk 08:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not a "point of order" (nothing wrong w/ OP's motion). Rather your suggestion to broaden the issue. IHTS (talk) 15:04, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is sexism, not insults to editors. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 18:08, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. In the 7+ years this essay has been in existence, it's been through 1 failed deletion nomination; and "sexism" was never brought up. The name "diva" never should have been linked to the WP article on diva to begin with. A Wikipedia diva is not a singer, and they most certainly are not exclusively female. The first sentence of the essay describes what a Wikipedia diva is, and there's no sexism implied there at all. This is PC nonsense, IMHO. Doc talk 23:24, 24 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]