Category:Political prisoners (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

This was closed as "convert to container category" with the rationale "Although a majority of participants would prefer to keep the category and discuss inclusion on a case-by-case basis, on this occasion the arguments based on Wikipedia policies outweigh the numbers." This is very subjective - with the disclaimer that I was the category's creator and voted keep, I nonetheless find the keep arguments well-articulated, and the opposing one much less so. In particular, I note that I and others have replied to several voters who suggested containerization, but said voters never replied to us. It's disappointing that silent refusal to participate in the discussion is treated as "convincing". I could see this being closed as no consensus, or relisted, but I don't think closing this as de facto delete (containerize isn't much better) is the right action. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:36, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn — the “keep” voters were, on the whole, every bit as thoughtful, engaged, logical and policy-grounded as the other side. Ignoring our arguments is arbitrary and, frankly, insulting. — Biruitorul ^Talk 13:13, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep At the very, very, least the closing statement is poor. "...on this occasion the arguments based on Wikipedia policies outweigh the numbers." is a fine reason to go against the majority, but you have to actually cite what policies are involved. Beyond that, BHG made a strong argument, but A) it was well refuted and B) most people didn't agree with it. And yes, we are capable of using sources to figure out category membership. Bad close that cannot be allowed to stand. Hobit (talk) 14:43, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn - I'm a bit shocked that, despite so many of us voting to Keep this important category it was unilaterally deleted anyways. Please, there are so many important historical topics about political imprisonment that predate modern NGO designations. --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wrong on both counts, @Dan Carkner:

1. See WP:NOTVOTE. The closer's job is not to count heads, but to weigh policy-based reasoned argument.
2. The closer's decision was not made unilaterally. It was explicitly based on weighing the arguments made in the discussion: the arguments based on Wikipedia policies outweigh the numbers.

This blatant misrepresentation of the close is disruptive. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Closer's response: Forgive me not going into more detail in the close. I will remedy that. As for the to-and-fro about WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, I was satisfied by the arguments that categories can be justified by text within the article, and if need be can be discussed on a case-by-case basis. However, I found that the justifications for the category did not satisfy WP:SUBJECTIVECAT: an inherently non-neutral inclusion criterion should not be used in naming/defining a category. What about adding sub-cats by prison? Category:Boven-Digoel internees was made a sub-cat during the discussion – probably justifiable in my opinion, but POV. Category:Detainees of the Guantanamo Bay detention camp was repeatedly brought up as a controversial case, to which the only answer given was WP:FRINGE, but that hardly avoids POV. Category:Prisoners in the Tower of London might perhaps also be put forward to be a sub-cat, because a lot of the members could be called political even if some were regular criminals, and WP:SUBCAT says When making one category a subcategory of another, ensure that the members of the subcategory really can be expected (with possibly a few exceptions) to belong to the parent also. I concluded that recording people in Wikipedia as political prisoners should only be done in articles, lists, and categories by designating organisation. – Fayenatic London 16:45, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fayenatic, with respect, "political prisoner" has 6.8 million hits on google books, it's a very important topic, ranging across almost all modern nations and empires, not something that should be deleted because you find it murky to sort out one case study from another. It's a defining attribute of many important historical figures, especially victims of Soviet regimes and other totalitarian systems that predate modern NGOs; not something that is equivalent to the mere status of being someone who has been imprisoned for any reason. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:18, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Dan Carkner, that argument is based on a classic straw man: the notion that this CFD is to "delete" en.wp's coherent of political prisoners.
No article has been deleted by this CFD, and no article's text has been altered. This CFD was solely about the use of categories to group en.wp's articles on people who have been labelled as political prisoners, and as the closer explicitly notes above recording people in Wikipedia as political prisoners should only be done in articles, lists, and categories by designating organisation. The claim that this amounts to "delete" political prisoners is nonsense. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:37, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse "Political prisoner" is an inherently POV term, and the closer's rationale about needing more context for this seems a reasonable approach. Jclemens (talk) 17:06, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  Having gone through and read the comments, I find BrownHairedGirl's argument persuasive and sufficiently aligned with NPOV policy that the keep !voters simply don't have a policy-based leg to stand on. Jclemens (talk) 17:17, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse. The closer correctly applied the policy of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. Deciding inclusion on a case-by-case basis is not a viable option when the definition of political prisoner is so heavily dependent on POV. It is deeply depressing to see how some editors in the CFD argued to disregard that core policy POV issue in favour of a majoritarian view of sources, and come here to continue their opposition to policy. That approach would entrench Wikipedia's systemic bias, because the inevitable prominence given to English-language sources by our English-speaking editors would tilt the population of this category towards the perspective of English-speakers. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:30, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]