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Israel Start‑class Low‑importance

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User:Huldra, when you say that "the pools are purely Roman work, not from Solomon's time at all," that would depend on what exactly you're talking about with respect to the pools. True, in Roman times they extended an aqueduct from these very pools to Jerusalem (see here), to supply water to the city. But the source of the water is a matter-of-fact, coming from the nearby ʻAin ʻEiṭam (Spring of Eiṭam), and which source of water was used by King Solomon to build pools. At least, that is the conventional thought of scholars. Because the pools have yet to be excavated - although its source is well-known - we were cautious with our words and wrote: "The pools are thought to date back to the time of King Solomon, having been built by him and which are alluded to in Ecclesiastes (2:5, 6), where it says, 'He made for himself pools of water.' According to Josephus, Solomon would take leisurely rides to this site in his chariot.^[1] Your words, however, showed no caution whatsoever, but you assumed that Solomon had nothing to do with these pools whatsoever. Firstly, there is a conventional view that says that the pools are somehow connected to King Solomon, as you can see by the writer of this article, Dima Srouji, here, who wrote on the second-page of his article: "In the neighboring village of Artas, the first pool and aqueduct are popularly held to have been built by King Solomon, an attribution reinforced by Artas historian Sanad Mousa. Yet some Palestinians and others involved with the renovation of the pools believe that the traces found through excavation in the last centuries point only as far back as the first century AD." (END QUOTE). Actually, both views are correct. One of the aqueducts is of late antiquity (only one pool having thus far been dated to around the mid-2nd to mid- 1st century BCE, based on its late masonry), but the pools' original foundation is long thought to have been built by King Solomon. Hence: "The pools are thought to date back to the time of King Solomon." And then there is the writer of another article, written in Bethlehem in 2014 (see here), although he / she mentions the pools also in relation to Suleiman the Magnificent. True, the writer is not an archaeologist, but he or she is basing his/her words on a conventional view that exists, and which theory has its foundation in the writings of the historian Josephus, where he writes in his Antiquities of the Jews (8.7.3), the following account: "King Solomon rode upon a chariot... and used to take his progress out of the city in the morning. There was a certain place, about fifty stadia distant from Jerusalem, which is called Eitham, very pleasant; it is in fine gardens, and abounding in rivulets of water; thither did he use to go out in the morning, sitting on high [in his chariot]." (END QUOTE). The ancient name of this water source, ʻEiṭam (Heb. עיטם), is actually eponymous, named from one of Judah's descendants who lived in that area of the country (see I Chronicles 4:3). A city by that name was also named after him. In fact, Israeli archaeologists have identified this city with the ruin now known as Khirbet al-Khuaḥ, a ruin that is adjacent to Solomon's Pools. For this, see: Biblical Encyclopaedia - Encyclopedia of the Bible and its Period, Bialik Institute, vol. 6, pp. 186-187. The Sages of Israel, during their redaction of the Babylonian Talmud in the 5th-century CE often make mention of this site, with respect to the aqueduct that was built there and which once extended as far as the Temple in Jerusalem: Yoma 31a, Zevahim 54b, Shabbat 145b, and Bekhorot 44b. By the way, this place is not to be confused with the "Rock of Eitam," a different place described by Victor Guérin.---

Davidbena (talk) 23:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is simply not acceptable in the lead. Yes, we can have further down as a tradition, but there is zero archeologiacal evidence that this is in any way related to King Solomon, so he and his charity has to go out of the lead. Huldra (talk) 20:31, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

True, but there is also no archaeological evidence that proves that the pools were not originally built by King Solomon. The aueduct is something different. The best that we can do is cite what local tradition says about the place, and that is important, without any doubt in my mind. The pools are renowned because of King Solomon. Israeli archaeologists have identified the nearby ruin as being Eitam, where Solomon frequently visited, according to Jewish tradition.Davidbena (talk) 19:23, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"no archaeological evidence that proves that the pools were not originally built by King Solomon", ok, there is "no archaeological evidence that proves that" Stonehenge wasn't built by King Solomon either....that doesn't make us write that they were built by him!!

See what dr Masterman wrote back in 1902: link, pp. 105−106: "Whether any part of it goes back to Solomon's time, as is claimed, is more than doubtful. It is the custom in the East to associate any great work with the name "Solomon;" hence we get "Solomon's Pools," "Solomon's Quarries," "Solomon's Stables," etc.-he is the country's ideal of wisdom and greatness. The fact is, we know nothing of the early history of this great work. Josephus states that Pontius Pilate made a "current of water" to Jerusalem," Huldra (talk) 20:27, 13 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many of Masterman's claims have long been debunked.Davidbena (talk) 21:24, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We all agree that these pools are ancient, but why do we need to mention modern settlements from the 1980s or 1990s, (settlements that had exactly nothing to do with the constructions of the pools!) ...in connections with the pools? It makes absolutely no sense to me, Huldra (talk) 21:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

We ALWAYS mention modern towns and cities in relation to old sites. There's nothing wrong in doing so, as it gives our readers a sense of direction. Your last "edit summary" clearly shows that your objection to mentioning Israeli towns in relation to Solomon's Pools is because you disagree with Israeli settlement of lands formerly owned by Arab Palestinians (See here), some of whom may have actually sold their parcels of land to Israelis. In any rate, that is a poor excuse. We should only concern ourselves with directional bearings. Jews and Arab Palestinians, Druze and Bedouins, etc., we all share the same country.Davidbena (talk) 21:54, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli settlements are not "Israeli towns" when it comes to the International community, and I think you know that very well, Huldra (talk) 23:58, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Still, the International community is divided over many of these issues, and, besides, the legality of Israel's hold of these territories is not dependent upon International law, nor upon the International community. We can cite their objection, but this does not change the fact on the ground. The borders of ancient Israel overlap those of Galilee and the modern West Bank, with a millennia of Arab history and culture interspersed. While it is true that the San Remo convention of 1920, and the United Nations in 1948, recognised the establishment of a Jewish homeland, let us not forget that Israel's "legal" connection to the land does not begin with these international instruments of "peace" and "world order," such as laid out in one convention or another, for if that were the case, I can assure you that they will use those same instruments to divorce Israel from its own land. Do not put more authority in their litigation than what Israel's rights convey to them by virtue of Israel's history in the land. The sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are entitled to cherish their ancestral homeland and choose to live therein. Of course, this doesn't mean that Jews should evict Arabs from the land, those who have lived here for hundreds of years. We share the land together, in spite of all the wrongs and ill-will that has happened between the two peoples. It is not our role as editors to pass judgment and to say that one people have no title to the land, or are not entitled to live in this country, or that they have no part in the country. Try remaining neutral. That is what I am asking of you to do. If not, you are being disruptive as per Wikipedia's policies. Oh, and one more thing: Israeli settlements, be they new or old, are still towns.Davidbena (talk) 00:23, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

David please stop sharing your personal views on the rights of the sons of Abraham, they are not in any way relevant or conducive to the purpose of this page. Finally, the cited source says the Pools "skirts around the west side of Bethlehem (parallel to today's Hebron Road), not that they are north of Efrat or any other settlement. If you want to include that some colony is near this cite then bring a source that makes any note of that, but try not to forget that for Efrat, Beitar Illit, or any other settlement Israel has established that the most common term to describe them in reliable sources is "Israeli settlement". That is what matters here, not the rights of Isaac and Jacob. nableezy - 05:16, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• In regards to removal of Efrat in diff: mapcarta (whose description doesn't seem to even mention Bethlehem) is far from a great source. If we are using a map as a source (which is possible - see the Wikipedia:Using maps and similar sources in Wikipedia articles essay) - we should stick to a neutral descriptor - in this regards, the Givat HaDagan neighborhood of Efrat (the most northern one along the road) is some 300-400 meters from the easternmost pool and would seem somewhat relevant. Icewhiz (talk) 06:28, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra No, a town can be a settlement. These two do not preclude each other. Debresser (talk) 23:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Debresser, you know as well as I do, that Israeli settlement is something else that what is presumed by "Israeli town". By "Israeli town" we mean towns in Israel, pre 1967. Please start a RfC, if you want to use "Israeli town" for Israeli settlement. A RfC is also in order for mentioning possibly mythical figures in the lead. Huldra (talk) 23:55, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

About the latter; the latest Finkelstein theory is interesting: [1], Huldra (talk) 23:58, 18 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Josephus disproves the theory of modern revisionists of history (who dare dispute the historicity of King Solomon), as he cites early Phoenician records that were still extant in his day and which prove that there was, indeed, a King Solomon. In fact, no one doubts that there was a First Temple on the Temple Mount and which had been built by King Solomon. As for the removal of the directional bearing of Solomon's Pools from Efrat, that was uncalled for. It matters little that Efrat happens to be a settlement, as it is a well-populated city with a population of nearly 10,000, nearly on par with al-Khader. There is already a consensus here to keep it.Davidbena (talk) 00:21, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]