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A word about the Founders

@Robert McClenon, Randy Kryn, Allreet, The Gnome, and Rjensen:, et al. — A source, entitled Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny, by Richard B. Morris, 1973, which was introduced in the above section on April 14, the day after the RfC was initiated, says that the founders include those who ""played central roles in determining the destiny of the new nation". The comments following the Morris entry says that...

"He says this could include perhaps 20 men, but narrows the list to seven based on three tests: "charismatic leadership, staying power, and constructive statesmanship". His list: Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, Adams, Jay, Hamilton, and Madison."

Certainly Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, et al, did not found the US Government all by themselves, and required the participation of many others. Its understood by most, hopefully, that there were varying degrees of involvement among the Founding Fathers. If we were to outline the inner circle of the Founders this would of course include the likes of Washington, Jefferson, et al, but there was indeed an outer circle of founders which would include men prominent and notable who are so listed in this article. One editor expressed the concern that only a handful of men should be listed as Founding Fathers, the rest are "dross", in support of the proposal that signers of the Continental Association only be omitted from the listing of founders. However, even if we removed all the signatories of the C.A. only, that would still leave more than 100 men in the listing of founders. The question remains, are these individuals supported by sources which refers to each and every one of them as Founding Fathers, as asked for the lone C.A. signers? In light of this inconsistency, it would appear that the primary basis for this RfC is without much merit, as it overlooks much, and only singles out lone signers of the C.A., but does not hold the 100+ others listed to the same standard, such that it is. As such this RfC is promoting a double standard, while the debate has been going around in circles since January. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:08, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure I said this before: Brown specifically refers to Declaration signers and Constitutional Convention members as founding fathers throughout, and Bernstein, in Founding Fathers Reconsidered, includes an addendum specifically listing them, a total of 99 founders. National Archives lists Morris's greats through Founders Online and on its main website publishes the DOI's signers and Constitution's framers/signers. Both are on pages titled "America's Founding Documents" and in the second case, the introduction refers to the framers/signers as founding fathers.

Most major histories on the period make only passing reference to the CA and give little regard to the Articles of Confederation because it left the states/former colonies as "sovereign nations". That the states agreed to concede significant power made all the difference.

I suggest re-reading Morris for his rationale in identifying the seven greats: "charismatic leadership, staying power [longevity] and constructive statesmanship". Of course they didn't do it all themselves, but none of the other dozen or so candidates (Sam Adams, George Mason, Patrick Henry, John Livingston, etc.) meets this criteria. As for the source, Morris led the scholarship on the founding for the better part of 50 years.

In answer to an earlier question, the lists of signers in the FF article have never had sources until this year. The DOI and Constitution were included when the FF article was started in 2004, and the CA and AOC were added 10 years ago. When the table was introduced in 2015, framers who didn't sign were no longer listed. They should be. Allreet (talk) 17:13, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding never, for a brief period in 2017 a few sources were provided to identify founding documents in the FF section. This was later revised completely, and in 2019 Werther was added for founding documents but not in reference to the lists of specific signers. Allreet (talk) 17:31, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All very interesting. Regardless of how the coverage varies, or how often covered among (any of the) historians, the Continental Congress was in the middle of initiating and promoting representative government, starting with the Continental Association, and those members who signed this document should not be ignored simply because they didn't sign the D.O.I. or Constitution as well. Yes, RS for the entire list is indeed inconsistent, so we should not be requiring, in a list, that a select group of men be held to any different standard than used for the entire list of founders. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:36, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gwillhickers Instead of arguing over “terms” in platonic categories of deduction, may I suggest focusing on an inductive “process” focusing on the “Founders” of the current regime governed by the US Constitution, as amended.

PROPOSED a hybrid criteria of documents and establishment of the US Constitution regime based on “We the People” that Patrick Henry and George Mason objected to in the Virginia Ratification Convention.

- In this NEW REGIME paradigm the fundamental criteria of any ‘Founder’ is their participation in the political process to ordain, or kick off the third US regime following the Continental Congress and the Articles Congress.

(1)   INDEPENDENCE. Declaration of Independence (First Regime): signers and not-signers. Note for Committee of Five drafting the Declaration. Note for Dickenson who voted "NO", then officered and campaigned in Washington’s Continental Army.

(2)   SECOND REGIME. Articles of Confederation: signers and not-signers

(3.a)   CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION: authorized unanimously and its report, the committee adopted Draft of the Constitution was accepted unanimously by the Articles Congress; note signers and not-signers.

(3.b)   RATIFICATION of the Constitution in the States using a text as submitted to them by unanimous vote in the Articles Congress, to initiate a new regime by a new Congress as provided in the draft to be ratified or not...  – include principle speakers for and against ratification perhaps 4-5 as agreed to.

Example Virginia:

- YES voters: Favor Constitution Ratification as submitted by Congress, then with amendments: JAMES MADISON, JOHN MARSHALL, former Governor EDMUND RANDOLPH who had refused to sign at the Philadelphia Convention, changed position after exchanges with George Washington – process …  

- NO voters: Favor Articles amended, rejecting ratification: PATRICK HENRY, GEORGE MASON.

(3.c) ARTICLES CONGRESS DISSOLVES itself.

(4) The FIRST CONGRESS of the US Constitution, THIRD REGIME.

- (a) the meeting of the First Congress March 4, 1789: House and Senate (VP ADAMS…) Leaders and Caucus leaders Senate (RICHARD HENRY LEE…) and House (MADISON…).

- (b) the Inauguration of its first President and Vice President on August 16 (GEORGE WASHINGTON, JOHN ADAMS)

- (c) the initiation of the first US Supreme Court September 24, 1789 (JOHN JAY, first Supreme Court Chief Justice)

- REGIME CHANGE NOTE: the next day, voting on the Judiciary Committees previous reports, September 25, 1789, Congressional 4/5 House and 4/5 Senate majorities sent 13 proposals for Constitutional Amendments to the States, September 25, 1789, which then ratified 10 of them, the BILL OF RIGHTS. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"@Allreet YES, include those NOT signing the Declaration, Articles, and Constitution. They should be noted in the Founders chart with red box NO entries. As the chart will indicate, several Founders changed their (a) personal opinions, (b) colleagues & conclusions, and (c) allies & votes, over the course of the "later 1700s".

The American past should never be presented as uniform unvarying conformity. Let's have an "all of history" here at WP and in this article, just as the Monticello Foundation calls for, for instance. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 16:41, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Signers and Framers

Signers of the Declaration of Independence and Framers of the U.S. Constitution are each recognized as founding fathers by three reliable sources. Combining the two into a single list results in a total 99 founders, eight of whom are both Signers and Framers.

Declaration of Independence: Signers

• Bernstein, R.B., The Founding Fathers Reconsidered, Appendix: The Founding Fathers: A Partial List, 2009
• Brown, Richard D., "The Founding Fathers of 1776 and 1787: A Collective View", William and Mary Quarterly, 1976
• National Archives, Signers of the Declaration

U.S. Constitution: Framers (includes Signers)

• Bernstein, R.B., The Founding Fathers Reconsidered, Appendix: The Founding Fathers: A Partial List, 2009
• Brown, Richard D., "The Founding Fathers of 1776 and 1787: A Collective View", William and Mary Quarterly, 1976
• National Archives, Meet the Framers of the Constitution

Additional Founders

7 Greats
Two reliable sources recognize the following individuals as founding fathers: Adams, Franklin, Hamilton, Jay, Jefferson, Madison, and Washington. Note: Adams and Jefferson are also Signers, while Hamilton, Madison, and Washington are also Framers. Franklin is both. This adds Jay to the list as a founder. These sources, then, apply mostly to discussions of the greats.

• Morris, Richard B., Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny, 1973
• National Archives, Founders Online

Allreet (talk) 05:02, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Others
The following represent other sources and possibilities for identifying founders. Please add more.

• Bernstein, R.B. identifies another 15 men and women.
• Wikipedia: Other Notables List needs to be vetted. Single sources, especially on "forgotten founding fathers", are not sufficient.

Discussion (2)

Just wait a Bicentennial Minute: Franklin signed the Declaration and Constitution (so in your form of a list he'd already be included as a twofer, please delete this once fixed for layout purposes). Randy Kryn (talk) 15:27, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the correction. I have him on my spreadsheet for both and missed it. I'll adjust my text accordingly. 16:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC) Allreet (talk) 16:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of identifying others requires wider discussion. The same is true of possibilities for creating the separate list articles (one just might do). Allreet (talk) 17:05, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:53, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Following is a list of papers on miscellaneous topics related to the nation's founding. Consider this a start. Most of these are available through JSTOR. Wikipedia offers full access to JSTOR (along with other resources) for editors who qualify through The Wikipedia Library, in which case you can download pdf's of papers. If you don't qualify, you can register for a free JSTOR account; however, in this case, you can only view the papers (up to 100 per month) but you can't download them. You can locate many additional papers on a subject on JSTOR by searching on the topic's name. Of course, you can also do the same on Google. If you find any papers or sites you believe would be of interest to other editors, feel free add them to the list under the appropriate categories.

Note: If you do download a pdf from JSTOR, you cannot make it available to others, for example, by including its URL in a citation. For one, this would violate our terms of use, and for another, the generated pdf will include your IP address, making it viewable by anyone. This is not the case with pdf's in general, so I have included a few that I've found outside JSTOR.

Founding Fathers

• Men Out of Time: Confronting History and Myth
• The Founding Fathers: Young Men of the Revolution
• The Founding Fathers and the Election of 1864
• God and the Founding Fathers
• The World of the Founding Fathers
• Natural Rights And The Founding Fathers - The Virginians
• The Myths That Made America (Myth of the Founding Fathers Chapter)
• The American Founders, Gendered Language, and Patriarchal Politics (Culture of Manhood Chapter)
• Founding Fathers' Motives
• Lincoln and the Founding Fathers: A Reconsideration
• The Lost Founder: James Wilson in American Memory
• Charles Humphreys

Continental Congress

• Journals and Papers of the Continental Congress
• Fifty Gentlemen Total Strangers: Portrait of the First Continental Congress
• The First Session of the Second Continental Congress
• The Continental Congress
• First Continental Congress and Problem of American Rights

War, Union & Loyalists

• Freemasons and the American Revolution
• Revolutionary War: The Home Front
• The Colonies Move Toward Open Rebellion, 1773-1774
• A Short History of the United Empire Loyalists
• War and the Imperative of Union
• Debunking the Myth of the "Shot Heard 'Round the World"
• Creation of American National Identity: 1774-1796

Continental Association & Committees of Safety

• The Articles of Association
• American Colonial Committees of Correspondence: Encountering Oppression, Exploring Unity, and Exchanging Visions of the Future
• The Committees of Safety and the Coming of the American Revolution in North Carolina, 1774-1776
• The Virginia County Committees of Safety, 1774-1776
• The South Carolina and Continental Associations: Prelude to Revolution

Declaration of Independence

• The Authentication of the Engrossed Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776
• Declaring, Drafting, and Composing American Independence
• The Declaration of Independence
• Signers of the Declaration of Independence
• Signers of the Declaration (book)
• Biographical Sketches of the Signers of the Declaration of American Independence (1866)
• Decision in '76: Reflections on the 56 Signers

Articles of Confederation

• Founders on the Defects of the Articles of Confederation, 1780-1787
• Legacy of the Articles of Confederation
• Background of the Articles of Confederation
• Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union
• Our First Constitution: The Articles of Confederation
• Articles of Confederation as Background to Federal Republic

Federalist Papers

• Full Text of The Federalist Papers
• Authorship of the Disputed Federalist Papers
• Authorship of the Disputed Federalist Papers: Part II
• Separating Hyperplanes and the Authorship of the Disputed Federalist Papers

U.S. Constitution

• The Constitution: How Did It Happen?
• Our Bickering Founding Fathers and Their Messy, Flawed, Divinely Inspired Constitution
• American Constitutionalism and the War for Independence
• Reason and Compromise in the Establishment of the Federal Constitution, 1787-1801
• Essays on the Constitution of the United States (Published 1787-1787)
• Why Did the Founding Fathers Write the Constitution?
• Founding Fathers & Bill of Rights Adoption

Slavery

• Slavery, Settlement, and Empire: The Expansion and Growth of Slavery, 1770-1820
• Slavery in America
• Lincoln and the "Necessity" of Tolerating Slavery before the Civil War
• The Founding Fathers and Slavery

Allreet (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good selection of sources. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn, Robert McClenon, Allreet, and Rjensen: and all concerned. — Below are statements taken from sources that establish the idea that the Continental Congress and its Association, were essential steps in uniting the colonies under one independent government. These sources should more than satisfy the idea that the Continental Congress, and its signatories of the Association be listed in this article as they have been for many years. Please leave any comments below, here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "The Continental Association is one of the most important documents of American colonial history. By authorizing the establishment of local committees to enforce the embargo of trade, it provided the apparatus that would eventually develop into the government of Revolution.^[2]
• "These were the first institutions of independent local government in the future United States."^[3]
• "Section eleven of the resolution specified that enforcement would lie with committees. Thus were the elected foundations of the new revolutionary government put in place."^[4]
• "The Association stands out as an important step toward the creation of an organic union among the colonies.^[5]
• "The Continental Association is significant in that it got the ball rolling toward independence and the colonies speaking in a united voice.^[6]
• They networked the provinces, which ultimately resulted in the Continental Congress where representatives began speaking against Great Britain with one resounding voice. Indeed, through the colonial Committees of correspondence, our Founders encountered British oppression, explored American unity, and exchanged visions of the future that would become the foundation of our nation.^[7]
• "The Continental Congress occupies a most interesting and important position in our national and political history. Suddenly brought together to meet a pressing emergency, its membership was made up from the most thoughtful among the men of the country. Few of them, if any, conceived that events would so happen that they would be called upon to adopt a policy which must inevitably lead to establishing a new power among the nations.^[8]
• "Even before outbreak of hostilities an embryonic "federal" effort had been mounted, with the Stamp Act Congress and then with the First and Second Continental Congresses.^[9]
• "The Continental Congress, which set the most salient national precedents, delegated legislative authority by the bucketload."^[10]
• "In agreeing to meet in a Continental Congress, Americans, whether they knew it or not, consented to a major political revolution, for they transferred the debate over theories and policies from the local to what was in effect the “national” level".^[11]
• "The Association provided a “national” policy, but its effectiveness would depend upon action taken in each of the colonies. ...the Association was a reality that had to be faced as soon as Congress adjourned. Furthermore, many Americans were convinced that eventually they would reach a fork in the road ahead. One fork might lead to reconciliation with Britain; the other would probably lead to independence, and the Association pointed toward that fork."^[12]

• "...the Continental Congress made its chief contributions to the building of the nation. ... which in time were transmitted to its successor to form an essential part of the new and more adequate system of government. It was, in fact, in the Continental Congress that were developed and formulated many of those fundamental principles of government that have become our national heritage."^[13]

• "With its emphasis on marshalling popular support, the Association thus marked an important early step toward the eventual creation of avowedly republican governments."^[14]

• "With a rather human predilection for finality historians have generally accepted the view that the American Revolution was inevitable since the members of the First Continental Congress were committed to revolt from the outset."^[15]

• "The Union is much older than the Constitution. It was formed, in fact, by the Articles of Association [by the First Continental Congress] in 1774. It was matured and continued by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It was further matured, and the faith of all the then thirteen States expressly plighted and engaged that it should be perpetual, by the Articles of Confederation in 1778. And finally, in 1787, one of the declared objects for ordaining and establishing the Constitution was “to form a more perfect Union.”"^[16]

Sources:

• Ammerman, David (1974). In the common cause: American response to the Coercive acts of 1774. Charlottesville : University Press of Virginia. ISBN 9780813905259.
• Phillips, Kevin (2012). 1775 : A good year for Revolution. New York : Viking Press. ISBN 978-0-6700-25121.
• Friedenwald, Herbert (1895). "The Continental Congress". The Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography. 19 (2). University of Pennsylvania Press: 197–207. JSTOR 20083644.
• Warford-Johnston, Benjamin (November 2016). "American Colonial Committees of Correspondence: Encountering Oppression, Exploring Unity, and Exchanging Visions of the Future". The History Teacher. 50 (1). Society for History Education: 83–128. JSTOR 44504455.
• Werther, Richard J. (October 24, 2017). "Analyzing the Founders: A Closer Look at the signers of Four founding Documents". Journal of the American Revolutionary War.
• Burnett, Edmund Cody (1941). The Continental Congress. New York : Macmillan Co.
• Jensen, Merrill (1968). The founding of a nation : a history of the American Revolution, 1763-1776. New York, Oxford University Press.
• Johnson, Herbert A. (Winter 2016). "American Constitutionalism and the War for Independence". Early American Studies. 14 (1). University of Pennsylvania Press. JSTOR 44630818.
• Mortenson, Julian Davis; Bagley, Nicholas (March 2021). "Dedication at the Founding". Columbia Law Review. 121 (2). Columbia Law Review Association, Inc.: 277–368. JSTOR 27002094.

• Mullett, Charles F. (December 1931). "ImperialIdeas at the First Continental Congresss". The Southwestern Social Science Quarterly. 12 (3). Wiley. JSTOR 42864744.
• Rakove, Jack N. (1979). The beginnings of national politics. Random House USA Inc; 1st edition.
• Ellis, Joseph J. (2007). Founding fathers : the essential guide to the men who made America. Hoboken, N.J. : John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-0-4701-17927.

Comments

The proposed dismantling of much of this article was based on the premise that there were not enough sources to support the idea that the members of the Continental Congress and its Articles of Association were not part of the founding process. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:03, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Very nice work, thanks for the effort and dedication. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:49, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should the signers of the Articles of Confederation be listed in this article and in their biographies as Founding Fathers of the United States because of their action in signing the Articles of Confederation? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:54, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This question only affects those individuals who signed the Articles of Confederation and did not sign either the American Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States. Individuals who signed either of the latter two documents will continue to be listed as Founding Fathers.

Please enter Yes or No with a brief explanation, or provide a brief statement that is some sort of other answer. Please do not reply to other editors in the Survey. The Discussion section is for back-and-forth discussion.

Survey2

• No, the prevailing view of scholars is that the Articles of Confederation were not a founding document, and consistent with this, its signers are not regarded as founders. In fact, the Articles were such a failure as a governing instrument that when representatives of 12 of the 13 states met in 1787 to amend them, they instead decided to adopt an entirely different form of government, the U.S. Constitution. In so doing, those delegates came to be recognized by most historians as founding fathers. Allreet (talk) 11:00, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes (corrected vote), three authoritative sources have been provided that describe signers of the Articles of Confederation as founders and/or founding fathers. The authors are John A. Altman, Anthony J. Bellia Jr. & Bradford R. Clark, and Saul K. Padover; the titles of their articles can be found by searching here on their last names; and there you'll find links for accessing the articles through JSTOR. Some questions remain regarding "prevailing view" and Original Research so I am reserving brief comment on these issues for the time being. I would also like to alert other editors who have weighed in to the fact that I have changed my vote (in order of voting): @North8000, @Binksternet, @The Gnome, @Atsme, @Pincrete, @Seggallion, and @Randy Kryn. Please see the following section for my reasons: New Sources, which also includes links to the sources. Thanks to all. Allreet (talk) 14:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  IMO, there are sufficient sources to accept that signers of the Articles are "considered" founders. However, taking into account that just three articles could be found that express this view and only a handful of books, all written for secondary education students, I believe this represents a "minority" view. Not one major author or institution could be found that refers to these signers as founders and none that considers the Articles a "founding document". I also would like to add that much that is said below amounts to Original Research: conclusions are being asserted by editors and not by the sources that are being cited. Allreet (talk) 06:10, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  There are many sources which list the Articles as a founding document, and textbooks usually have professional historian consultants. Yes, it is a minority view which nonetheless meets WP:DUE and WP:NPOV. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:18, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Not many sources as a founding document: a few papers (Altman, Bellia/Clark, Padover) and several secondary school books. I agree the Articles deserves recognition but not of the weight afforded the Declaration, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. Allreet (talk) 23:00, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Say: "The metaphor type term "Founding Fathers" is usually applied to signers of the American Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States, and occasionally applied to signers of the Articles of Confederation". Please read my post precisely because it is only a recommendation in the general area of the question. North8000 (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No. The AC signers were trying to get a degree of self-governance under the royal umbrella. They were not trying to start a revolution; rather, they wanted their own legislative body answering only to the British crown, sidelining Parliament in London. The AC signers include many loyal royalists who played no part in the founding of the USA. Binksternet (talk) 23:40, 14 May 2022 (UTC) }}[reply]

• See Reply --

• No categorically and irrespectively of my personal viewpoint on the subject. The insertion of persons into the group of "Founding Fathers" is unsupported by sources. Irrespective of the worthiness of the term "Founding Fathers" itself, the established historical paradigm praises the C.A.'s contributions and importance but does not include its members in the same group as the Founding Fathers. Wikipedia is not a historical journal yet here we are with Wikipedia "breaking new ground" in direct contravention of policy. This inappropriate state of affairs must be amended as soon as possible. -The Gnome (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes The idea of the Articles of Confederation contributing significantly to, or founding, the Constitition, is well established by the sources, and the recited claims about the "established historical paradigm" is obviously the product of ignorance on the subject. It only took me minutes to gather up some sources that support the idea of the AOC as a founding document. If anyone can address this other than to assert the superficial claim that a given source doesn't use the word founding, please do so. I'll continue in this effort so as to avert a few editors from attempting to rewrite American history here at WP: See new sources below. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• No - per the Gnome and others above. There is no officially declared number (consensus) of Founding Fathers; therefore, our article should include only the most prominent individuals as supported by RS, and it should also clarify why history only mentions the names of the most prominent individuals. To do otherwise gets us into NOR territory, possibly with a splash of SYNTH. Atsme 💬 📧 18:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• See Reply --

• No - per the Gnome and Atsme. There is no officially declared number of Founding Fathers; therefore, our article should include only the most prominent individuals as supported by RS, and it should also clarify why history only mentions the names of the most prominent individuals.. Maybe many more people SHOULD be looked on as FFs, but the plain fact is that on the whole they aren't. This is a bit reminiscent of debates about who 'invented' the internet or the discovered the structure of DNA. Perhaps people have been unfairly forgotten, but it is not our business to 'correct' that if sources haven't. This seems like an attempt for WP to re-invent a more wholly inclusive, original definition of who is a FF based on SYNTH. Pincrete (talk) 08:12, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• See Reply --

• No, the 1787 confederation was an oddity that did not last, people signing here aren't real founders.--Seggallion (talk) 15:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user[reply]

• See Reply

• Νο, categorically. There's a plethora of sources indicating that probably "the articles of confederation fed right into the drafting of the constitution", and that, in so many words, the articles were pretty pretty pretty important. Still, there is no adequate number of reliable sources claiming that the confederales were and equal to and belong in the same category as the founders, as the established historical paradigm defines the latter. Once more then, a supplication: pretty please, with sugar on top: Start the crusade to alter the paradigm elsewhere. Wikipedia is not a publisher of scientific papers. Your personal work, though possibly hard and thorough, does not matter. -The Gnome (talk) 18:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Not at all true. See Reply --

• Prelude. Please keep this open for at least another week if not longer, thanks. Just got back after my computer finally gave up the ghost a week ago, and even before that I hadn't read, on purpose, this long RfC. I will finally be able to read it and hopefully learn more about the AoC over the long weekend (hopefully all who've offered an opinion here are keeping up and joining in the ongoing what seems to be book-length discussion). I'll be looking to ascertain if one of the combatants, ah, I mean editors, has proven that the yes side has provided adequate sources to meet WP:DUE and WP:NPOV, which is really what this RfC is all about. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes - See my explanation below. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, per Allreet, Robert McClenon (the two editors who started this RfC), and the magnificent Gwillhickers,. Gwillhickers and Allreet, through a long and fully productive point-counterpoint analysis and source research below and further into the page, proved that the signers of the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union have enough reputable sources to meet WP:RS Founding Father status on Wikipedia (per WP:DUE and WP:NPOV, to name just two). This RfC discussion and the related sections below it (which I would think count as extensions of the RfC as part of the same discussion but not sure about counting "legally") seem well worth the read. Allreet, originally dead set against including the AoC signers, eventually agreed with Gwillhickers research that yes, the sources now do support the signers of the AoC as Founding Fathers. So, per these valuable Wikipeda editors, I'm wikihonored to be in agreement with all of them. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Late Yes vote — @TheVirginiaHistorian, Robert McClenon, Randy Kryn, and Allreet: A new vote was just submitted, but in sort of an irregular way. TheVirginiaHistorian left a Yes vote and comment in the Request for closure section and in the edit history, under July 4.
  TVH, if you're reading this you may want to add your vote here, so it has your signature, and so it doesn't go unnoticed by the closer(s). Thanks for chiming in. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:18, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping survey section clear: Moved current discussion from survey area to here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

The Articles of Confederation established such a weak central government that the states in effect functioned as sovereign nations. Under the Articles, the government had just one branch, the Confederated Congress, which lacked the following powers:

• The power to tax.
• The power to coin money.
• The power to regulate foreign and interstate trade.
• The power to enforce its laws.

Within a few years of the Articles' adoption, it become apparent to most political thinkers of the time that a stronger, more effective federal system was needed. Thus, the U.S. Constitution was adopted at the Constitutional Convention of 1787, totally replacing the Articles. Allreet (talk) 11:36, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• You said it yourself — the Articles of Confederation established a central government. Though it had its weakness this doesn't change the fact that it was indeed a central government that lead to the Constitution itself. The founding of representative government, and ultimately the Constitution, occurred in steps, and political entities like the Continental Congress, its Association and the Articles, all attended by delegates from the several colonies, were giant steps in the founding of the nation.
  The first sentence in the lede of the Articles of Confederation article reads:
  "The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union was an agreement among the 13 original states of the United States of America that served as its first frame of government.".
  How did you arrive at the idea that the "prevailing view" of scholars does not regard the Articles of Confederation as a founding document -- simply because you cant find the word founding that often? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:32, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of debating the merits and demerits of the Articles of Confederation. I stated what I believe is the prevailing view of our first "constitution" based on what the sources say, including the list of its weaknesses. However, that's not the topic of the RFC. As with the previous RFC, the issue here is the need for reliable, authoritative sources that identify signers as founders. Allreet (talk) 07:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: We now have another RfC in the works, before the completion of the existing one. You made a claim under the section entitled Discussion but now you don't want to debate it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can present your arguments and they should be able to stand on their own, as I intend mine to do. I'll also choose which issues I think should be addressed and responded to, exactly as you do. As for the two RFCs, WP's guidelines say multiple RFCs on the same page are perfectly acceptable.

The Perpetual Union issue isn't relevant, especially because it fails to make your point about the nation's founding. For example, Washington believed the Union was in danger under the Articles, referring to what he called "a half starved, limping Government, that appears to be always moving upon crutches, & tottering at every step". The quote comes from the Mount Vernon site, and is originally from a letter to Benjamin Harrison. (In another letter, Alexander Hamilton calls the Union "feeble and precarious".)

The most relevant argument is Federalism (Adams, Hamilton, Madison, Jay) vs. Anti-Federalism (Jefferson, Richard Henry Lee, and various lesser knowns), which pits the Constitution against the Articles. Since the differences between the two factions and documents are stark, I think it's ridiculous to claim the Articles "led to the Constitution" and that the two "share many of the same ideas", especially in terms of the form of government and type of nation that resulted. Allreet (talk) 14:56, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am notifying the following editors who participated in the Continental Association RFC and who haven't responded yet to the new RFC: @Atsme, @The Gnome, @Orson12345, @Pincrete, @Randy Kryn, @Rjensen, and @Thucydides411.

At my request, @Robert McClenon has opened a new RFC on whether the signers of the Articles of Confederation are considered founding fathers. The issue is the same as in the previous RFC: the need for reliable sources identifying the document's signers as founders. A lack of sources has existed since 2011 when the Articles' signers were added to the Founding Fathers article. The need escalated in October 2021, when the term "Founding Father" was added to the biography articles of signers who were not previously recognized as founders (approximately 28 of 48 signers).

Few reliable sources exist identifying the Articles as a founding document and its signers as founders - by my count, just one. I believe it is misleading, then, to include these signers in the Founding Fathers article and identify them as founders in other articles if they have no additional support for these claims. I hope that you will weigh in on the RFC with a vote and that beforehand you will at least read the lead paragraphs of WP's Articles of Confederation article which provide a decent overview of the document. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 17:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that User:Binksternet is mistaken about the Articles of Confederation, and that what he is saying it is true of the Continental Association. The Articles of Confederation established a weak national government, having no connection to King George or the North Parliament. The Declaration of Independence asserted that the thirteen colonies were free and independent states. One year later, they confederated to form a union, but a weak union.

I have started this RFC, and have not !voted yet, because I am waiting for the other editors to summarize what reliable sources say about the AOC. My own opinion is that the AOC are a founding document, creating a nation out of thirteen short-lived nations. We should follow what reliable sources say.

By the way, the Declaration, the AOC, and the Constitution show the evolution of what is now the more common usage of the word 'state'. In 1776, it meant only a nation-state or etat. It still has this meaning in international law. Since 1789, it more often means a self-governing component of a federated nation-state. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:09, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, you are correct. My mistake. Binksternet (talk) 18:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• There are plenty of sources that clearly outline the idea that the drafting and adoption of the Articles of confederation fed right into the drafting of the Constitution, both documents sharing many of the same ideas. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Irrelevant. The connections between the AOC and Constitution are debatable. But if the two were the same, that would still not prove anything regarding who is recognized as a founder and who isn't. That's the question of the RFC, not the myriad issues about the AOC that @Gwillhickers seems to think prove his point. Whatever point that is, it's not the subject of the RFC. Allreet (talk) 21:41, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  User:Randy Kryn wrote: Please keep this open for at least another week if not longer, thanks. Duh. This is an RFC. An RFC runs for 30 days. But maybe you and User:Allreet have some other concept that isn't based on the policies and guidelines. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:19, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The poster, the person who initiated a RFC, has the right to close it. And the participants can agree to close one. There are other possibilities. AGF doesn't include the word "duh". Allreet (talk) 15:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Narrow scope

The premise of this RfC is very narrow, asking should the men in question be listed for having only signed the Articles of Confederation. The men in question should be listed because, as signers, they were involved in the drafting and debates involving the Articles, not just because they were signers. They just didn't happen along, pop in, and sign a document they had nothing to do with. This is why we must consider the sources, and not just base our decision on the idea that they merely signed a piece of paper. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Given @Gwillhickers's plaints, I believe several points need to be made:

• First, I vehemently object to adding new sections above the RFC Discussion. Should I play the same game and insert another section above this one? Where's that going to get us? @Robert McClenon, please, some feedback on the "rules of engagement".
• Second, tough beans regarding the scope or premise of the RFC. Some of those who signed the Articles of Confederation may qualify on other grounds, but precedent has been set by highly authoritative sources in recognizing signers of certain documents as founders, even if their other contributions were relatively marginal. I, for one, am not going to argue with the National Archives, Harvard University, Bernstein, or any of the other reliable sources that explicitly recognize signers of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. Constitution as founders.
• Third, there's an assumption Robert McClenon made about the Articles that others are prone to make. Since the AOC was undeniably significant and came right on the heels of the Declaration, wouldn't that inherently point to its being a "founding document"? Honestly, I've felt that myself. But then I think, why would the National Archives, the nation's leading institution of scholarship on the Founding Era and the central access point for the papers of the leading founders, intentionally leave out the AOC from its listing of founding documents and instead identify the Federalist Papers and Bill of Rights along with the Declaration and Constitution? My only guess is that they know a hell of a lot more than I do. And since no other source of the past 50 years disagrees with them, who is there to challenge their judgement?
• Fourth, Gwillhickers says we should "consider the sources". On that I agree. The sources, however, should be reliable, which is not the case with many of those he's provided (see point Seven). Of equal concern is our "use of sources". In this regard, he's found conclusions in his sources that their authors do not directly state and did not intend. Most of them are writing generally about events associated with the founding. Almost none indicated who actually did the "founding", meaning that about this they're not too specific. This is not case with sources that explicitly identify signers of the Declaration and Constitution as founders.
• Fifth, the AOC is regarded as a "founding document" by just one source. That source, an article form 1958, also refers to its signers as founders. Excellent. Since hundreds of papers, articles, and books have been written about the issue since, it should be easy to find a couple other sources that agree.
• Sixth, also regarding sources, Gwillhickers has cherry picked, misquoted, and otherwise used statements from sources out of context repeatedly. In fact, he's loaded up the RFC Discussion with quotes that are either irrelevant regarding the identification of founders or that distort the issues they address.
• Seventh, several of the sources Gwillhickers has offered us are books for junior high school students. Five of them, as a matter of fact. What is going on here?

Finally, I want to thank Gwillhickers for creating a section where I can set the context for much of what is about to follow and summarize the issues I've raised throughout. Despite that, I hope this section will be moved down to the bottom of the Discussion where it belongs. Allreet (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — The section in question has been moved below the discussion section. Also, you're once again basing your argument with the same old hat, with the claim that sources don't refer to the A.O.C. as a "founding" document, despite the fact that they still cover this idea quite well, esp in regards to the idea that many of the provisions of the A.O.C. are contained in the Constitution, which indeed makes the A.O.C. a founding document -- all by itself, all the while you still seem to be ignoring that the some of the sources provided employ the term Founding Father, or Founding or Framing. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please refer to my "old hat" arguments above addressing the reliability and use of sources, the original research required to identify the AOC as a founding document (they "cover this idea quite well" is an example), the irrelevance of issues such as the connection between the AOC and the Constitution, and the lack of sources that identify the AOC's signers as founders. Now, everyone else, hold onto your hats for the 10,000 words that are about to follow. Allreet (talk) 22:52, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not the bottom of the Discussion section. But I don't care because it tends to highlight my summary. Thank you. Allreet (talk) 22:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: I see – all the sudden you're not particular about where the section goes if you feel it helps your case, such that it is, or tries to be. Thanks for that rather revealing insight. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You do need to learn how to read exactly what I say. I just said this above in my initial statement, how it was fortuitous being handed a prominent forum. So if I was overjoyed then, why wouldn't I be now? Allreet (talk) 22:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm not really impressed with your attempt at damage control here. On the one hand you had issues about placement of the section, now you don't, which you spelled out in plain English. I read very well, thank you, now you can read this:
Once again, since many of the provisions of the A.O.C. are found in the Constitution no one can deny that it was an important part of its founding. The years of debates over it, leading to the drafting of the Constitution, alone, should have told you that. Yes, I welcome more of your "summary", not that you're going to give us anything you haven't repeated before. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to open another RFC regarding your point about the AOC and Constitution, but this and other such issues have done nothing here except overload the Discussion with irrelevancies. Stick to the point. Are signers of the AOC considered founders? The answer is fairly simple: only if sources explicitly state that they are. Or am I just repeating myself? Allreet (talk) 23:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you're just repeating failed arguments, apparently under the notion that if you repeat things often enough they will all be true. And please don't stand there and complain about overloading the discussion - you of all people, with your continued obfuscation and evasiveness, ready to ignore eight years of history and the A.O.C. in your ongoing denial about the A.O.C., that many of its provisions are contained in the Constitution, and that the signers of the A.O.C. were involved in the years of debates that led up to the Constitution. Not founders? Do you actually believe that? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And I still want some direction from @Robert McClenon regarding "the rules". I'll be very honest about my concerns. We have yet to hear from a certain editor, so I suspect he's waiting for the last minute to flood this discussion with whatever in hopes of giving nobody a chance to respond. My fear is based on what happened at the end of the last RFC when several comments were added after the discussion was closed, but the RFC was still accessible. So, fine, if someone want to load up the back end. But what's within the realm of "fair comment" and criticism regarding the addition of new sections throughout? Allreet (talk) 23:04, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh please, I made a point about the scope of the RfC, and here you are, ducking that issue, waiting for this un-named editor to "to flood this discussion with whatever in hopes of giving nobody a chance to respond." which is exactly what you've done here with your usual long winded account about the sources. "Tough beans" was your comment. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You know exactly what I'm talking about. Allreet (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you were very clear about your expectation of some un-named editor coming in and doing what you're doing here, all the while you continue to avoid the point. i.e.The signers did more than just sign, they were involved in the years of debate over the A.O.C., with many of its provisions contributing to the Constitution. They just didn't stop in and sign a document they had nothing to do with. The opening statement of the RfC doesn't even reflect that. All it asks is if those who only signed the A.O.C. be included in an article about the Founding Fathers, as if their contributions didn't amount to much for having only signed one document, which tends to ignore the sources and the history of which these signers were a part of. I know Robert meant well, but this was indeed a shortcoming in the (very) brief wording in the opening statement, and not much of a basis for their exclusion. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:08, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rules

User:Allreet - It seems that you are asking me a question about "the rules". What rules? If you mean the guidelines for how RFCs are handled, please ask a specific question, but I am not in charge of an RFC simply because I posted it. If you have a question about the RFC process, you can ask it at Village Pump or the Help Desk. If you are concerned that someone will engage in some sort of misconduct, I would call your attention to the policy to assume good faith. We have stubborn strong-willed editors here, not disruptive editors. What is the question? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC) The infrared output exceeds the visible output. If you want that restated, just ask me to restate it in unscientific terms. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, can we enter new sections wherever we wish? I thought I was very clear about this in my first bullet point. Since then, @Gwillhickers moved his new section (this one), not to the bottom of the actual discussion but to where he felt like placing it.

That was my initial "plaint". But then I asked what's acceptable in terms of an editor waltzing in at the last minute and either peppering the discussions, creating new sections, or overwhelming the dialogue with comments, thereby leaving no chance for others to respond? That's not far-fetched since something similar though less egregious occurred just before the last RFC closed, even though everyone else had voluntarily stopped commenting.

BTW, for a second I took your question "what rules?" the way it was used in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: "what rules...this is knife fight". Anyway, I thought you might know what was acceptable or within certain bounds does anything go? Allreet (talk) 04:48, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Allreet - See Talk Page Guidelines for the rules about what is permitted on an article talk page, including with respect to an RFC on an article talk page. I have not been paying detailed attention to most of the discussion here, most of which is unproductive. Are you saying that another editor moved a section of a discussion, or only that another editor inserted a section into the middle of a discussion? Moving a section of a discussion seems disruptive and confusing. Inserting a discussion in the middle may be reasonable if it is a reply to something that was said in the middle. If you think that the discussion has been refactored in an improper manner, and you want to know whether other editors agree, you can ask at Village Pump or the Help Desk. If you do ask a question about the talk page guidelines in another forum, Do Not ask it in the form of a hypothetical question. It isn't a hypothetical question, and some editors know that asking a "hypothetical question" about a real dispute is a form of wikilawyering. So what is the question? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you are saying that another editor tried to disrupt the previous RFC immediately before it closed, then I am not sure what the issue is. Didn't it get closed the way you wanted it closed? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you are saying that you think that another editor is about to disrupt this RFC, or will disrupt it before it closes, then that sounds like you are not assuming good faith. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you have an issue with the conduct of other editors, do you know where WP:ANI is, and do you know where the boomerang essay is that you should read first?

If you don't have a question, then what is the question? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Allreet - You asked me 48 hours ago about "the rules", and I don't yet know what the question is. Either state that there has been a violation of talk page guidelines, or don't state that there has been a violation of talk page guidelines. In the meantime, I would rather hear about high school textbooks. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't suggest or even think there was a violation of talk page guidelines. I was curious about (wondered if there were) guidelines on certain behaviors. In many ways, it appears anything does go, incivility being one clear exception. Other than that anyone can say anything they want, in which case, other rules, such as WP:VER and NOR, need to be adjudicated in some other way. Hopefully, the RFC closers will be able to provide some thoughts on that. Allreet (talk) 15:35, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to voting rationales

• "No. The AC signers were trying to get a degree of self-governance under the royal umbrella. They were not trying to start a revolution; rather, they wanted their own legislative body answering only to the British crown, sidelining Parliament in London. The AC signers include many loyal royalists who played no part in the founding of the USA." - Binksternet

  The AOC was created with the express idea of winning American independence, not becoming buddy-buddy with the king. See statements/sources below, esp Bernstein, 2009 and Padover, 1958. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:45, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Bernstein does not recognize signers of the Articles of Confederation as founders. @Gwillhickers selectively quotes Bernstein (among many sources) to try to establish the AOC as a founding document. Allreet (talk) 21:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No - per the Gnome and others above. There is no officially declared number (consensus) of Founding Fathers; therefore, our article should include only the most prominent individuals as supported by RS, and it should also clarify why history only mentions the names of the most prominent individuals. To do otherwise gets us into NOR territory, possibly with a splash of SYNTH. - Atsme

Yet you wanted to include Abigail Adams as one of the founders -- someone who was not one of "the most prominent individuals", was not a member of the Continental Congress, or a famous revolutionary leader, and was not involved in the debates and signing of any document. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:04, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• *No - per the Gnome and Atsme. There is no officially declared number of Founding Fathers; therefore, our article should include only the most prominent individuals as supported by RS, and it should also clarify why history only mentions the names of the most prominent individuals.. Maybe many more people SHOULD be looked on as FFs, but the plain fact is that on the whole they aren't. This is a bit reminiscent of debates about who 'invented' the internet or the discovered the structure of DNA. Perhaps people have been unfairly forgotten, but it is not our business to 'correct' that if sources haven't. This seems like an attempt for WP to re-invent a more wholly inclusive, original definition of who is a FF based on SYNTH. - Pincrete

The premise of the last two No votes is gravely in error. History texts do mention the founders who were not as famous as Washington, Jefferson, etc. Though they may not do so as much, this is no basis to exclude such members in a list of founders -- individuals who represented their states, drafted, adopted and signed the A.O.C. It doesn't matter if there is "no officially declared number" of founders. All we need do is support the idea that they were present during the debates and signed the A.O.C., which is well established as a founding document, drafted, debated and signed by founders. Many people besides Washington and company were involved in the founding process and are notable enough to have their own articles here on WP and are listed in this article. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gwillhickers is trying to negate No votes with arguments that are beside the point. Abigail Adams? Then he concocts this bit of OR: "All we need do is support the idea that they were present during the debates and signed the A.O.C., which is well established as a founding document, drafted, debated and signed by founders". His "well established" reference links to dozens or so of sources he's provided that have lots to say but very little that's relevant. Allreet (talk) 21:45, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• No, the 1787 confederation was an oddity that did not last, people signing here aren't real founders. - Seggallion

@Seggallion:, thanks for chiming in. The Articles of Confederation, were more than just an oddity, they were the framework of the U.S. Constitution, which improved on and strengthened the Articles. The signers were founders, and include men like John Hancock, Samuel Adams, Richard Henry Lee, author of the Lee Resolution, Henry Laurens, one of the presidents of the Second Continental Congress, Francis Lightfoot Lee, a delegate to the Continental Congress, and a signer of the Declaration of Independence, while all the signers participated into the debates which led to the drafting of the u.S. constitution itself. There are many sources that cover the importance of the Articles of Confederation. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Utter fiction. The Constitution improved on the Articles in the same way day improves on night. Delegates who adopted the Constitution were originally directed by their states to merely amend the Articles. Instead, they came to the immediate conclusion this was impossible, so they drafted an entirely different form of government. The contrasts between Constitution vs. Articles? Strong vs, weak central government. Solid union of states vs. loose confederation of sovereign nations. Three branches of government vs. one. Ability to print money, raise taxes and regulate commerce vs. none of these powers. What the Articles' framers created was a form of government that didn't work and that no longer exists. So what exactly did they found? Allreet (talk) 19:07, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Allreet: & @Randy Kryn: — Allreet, You've alluded to the differences between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution, no one said otherwise, but continue to ignore the fact, not "utter fiction" that the Articles of Confederation, with their short comings, are still what lead into and formed the basis to the articles in the Constitution. They didn't discard the Articles of Confederation, they improved on it. "Merely amend"? Amend means to take an original document, like the Articles of Confederation, and make improvements. Yet you carry on as if the two documents are entirely unrelated, not having a thing to do with the other. Both documents are based on representative government and the idea of natural rights. Both documents were ratified by representative delegates in the Continental Congress.

— Article 1 in the Articles of Confederation established the official name for the country:  "'The Stile of this Confederacy shall be The United States of America"

— Article V states: "Freedom of speech and debate in Congress shall not be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Congress".   — for openers.

"So what exactly did they found?"  Unbelievable. I have added sources that mention that Founding Fathers were behind the Articles of Confederation. Some sources refer to the articles as the first Constitution of the United States. You never square off with the actual quotes/sources but only make erroneous and obtuse statements that fail to address matters entirely. -- Gwillhickers (talk)

Actually, you're distorting the history. For example, "Founding Fathers were behind the Articles of Confederation" is blatantly false... "Founders on the Defects of the Articles of Confederation". If Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, et al were "behind it", why would they have dumped them? Yes, it was "the first constitution", one that lasted all of six years (1781-1787). All beside the point. You keep complaining that I'm asking for sources that say "signers of the Articles are founders". Yes, I am, since that's the question posed by this RFC. Allreet (talk) 11:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — Actually I'm highlighting the history. The Continental Congress, founding fathers, were largely the ones who drafted, debated and signed the A.O.L, so it is not "blantantly false" that they were behind it, since they were the ones who drafted and adopted it. Sorry, there are plenty of sources that support the idea that the A.O.L. was an important step in the founding, and indeed it was the young nation's first Constitution. Not part of the founding process? Yes it lasted six years, and they didn't "dump it" as it was sort of a trial run, tested by the revolutionary years, and served to demonstrate what else was needed in a Constitution. A very important founding step. Once again, your entire argument hangs by the same thread where you keep demanding one figure of speech, even though some of the sources indeed use it. And please don't write an exact sentence and tell us to find a source that uses those exact words. Once again, plenty of sources cover the founding process without using a particular figure of speech. This has been explained for you numerous times now, and as usual, you refuse to get it while you repeatedly try to embellish your attempt at argument with weasel phrases.
Btw, the first word in the title you linked to is "Founders". That the A.O.L. had its "defects" and oversights, and was largely criticized, esp during the war, doesn't change the fact that it was written and adapted by the founders, and again, served to demonstrate what a Constitution needed. The founding process took a good number of years, before, during and after the war, yet here you are trying to tear out a six year chapter in that story. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You just distorted the "Founders on the Defects of the Articles of Confederation" article. The Founding Fathers in question - Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, Morris, Knox - were criticizing the Articles - from 1780 before adoption through 1787 when the Constitutional Convention met - whereas you're claiming they framed them. Members of Congress who adopted the Articles were more interested in protecting the sovereignty of their states than in forming "a more perfect union." Thus they created the wrong thing. That's the history according to the period's leading scholars, from those at the National Archives and Harvard through Bernstein and Ellis, none of whom recognizes the Articles as a founding document or its signers as founders. Allreet (talk) 12:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The Gnome: — Regarding the misinformed statements:
"There's a plethora of sources indicating that probably "the articles of confederation fed right into the drafting of the constitution"
Thank you, indeed there is, though to be honest, I suspect you meant to say There's no plethora of sources...

No, I meant what I wrote. You just missed the implicit irrelevance of that fact, even if indeed it's a fact. But I won't try again to argue the obvious. -The Gnome (talk) 19:50, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Still, there is no adequate number of reliable sources claiming that the confederales were and equal to and belong in the same category as the founders, as the established historical paradigm defines the latter."
The "established historical paradigm" defines the founders as those involved in a number of documents, not just the Constitution itself. "confederales"? The Constitution was not created in a vacuum and was the result of many years of debates and events before, during and after the Revolution. The founding of representative government took years and occurred in steps. Each step, led to the next, and your attempt to dismiss one of these as 'not equal' has no bearing on the fact that the A.O.C. was a representative government, drafted, debated and signed by the Continental Congress, as was the constitution, with many of it's articles and provisions occurring in the Constitution. Yet you carry on as if the two are entirely unrelated. For someone who bandies the phrase historical paradigm around so much it's a little odd that you seem to be aloof to these ideas, covered by many sources. Please review these sources before you flounder the term historical paradigm around again. Thanks.

• "Most scholars identify as founding fathers the politicians during the American Revolution, the Confederation period, and the early Republic."^[1] -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another gross distortion. The "Confederation period" spanned 1777 through the adoption of the Constitution in 1787, so lots happened during that time. Bolding this word and founding fathers is an attempt to make it appear Bernstein is somehow connecting the AOC with founding fathers, when all he's doing is alluding to the10-year period when the AOC was in effect. @Gwillhickers is doing this with many if not most of the quotes he's cherry picked. But it shouldn't happen with any of them. Allreet (talk) 22:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — Yes, lots happened during this time, including the drafting and adoption of the Articles of Confederation. All you're giving us is rhetoric about what Bernstein didn't mean to say, as if the Confederation period had nothing to do with the Articles of Confederation. Notice he mentions the founding fathers in reference to the American Revolution, the Confederation period and the early republic, which wasn't established until the Constitution was ratified. But as far as you're concerned the founders had nothing to do with the A.O.C. Unbelievable. Sorry, but yours is the only "gross distortion" being shoveled around here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:29, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've distorted Bernstein's quote by bolding disconnected thoughts in an attempt to connect them. And your interpretation is equally skewed: "Notice how he mentions..." The fact is Bernstein doesn't recognize the Articles' signers as founders. Look up his Appendix where he goes on to name the founders. So are you saying Bernstein believed one thing in one part of the book and something else in another? So either he's confused or you are. Allreet (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet:, the Appendix to which you refer clearly reads:  Appendix: The founding Fathers, A Partial List,  See p. 177. "Partial List" means there were others. You've been carrying on as if the list was all encompassing, and then embarking on O.R. with the claim that if they are not listed here, they are not founding fathers, while in the same breath you accuse me of distorting Bernstein. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, you got me there. I think Bernstein intends to complete his list someday with signers of the Continental Association, Articles of Confederation and among other documents, the Mayflower Compact. Or, just maybe, he's referring to his third list, the one following signers of the Declaration and Constitution, which includes a number of individuals who deserve recognition but didn't sign anything. But if you think my assertion is OR, that would go a long way toward proving my POV that you have no idea what the term really means. Allreet (talk) 23:53, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — My reference to O.R. has always been over the idea of trying to draw a conclusion merely on the basis of what a source didn't happen to mention, which you've attempted to do in various articles, and here in Talk on several occasions. In any case, yes Bernstein's list is indeed a partial listing, as he doesn't even mention David Brearley, one of the signatories of the Constitution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:00, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Brearly is the first name under New Jersey, p. 179 Allreet (talk) 00:46, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Though I'm certain Bernstein is a reliable soul, I counted names anyway: 56 signers for the Declaration and 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, with asterisks identifying 39 signers. All three counts, spot on.

Regarding "Partial List" in the Appendix's title, his opening sentence provides some clue as to its meaning: "Nobody can agree on the complete list of the founding fathers". Since his two lists of document signers/framers are complete, that leaves his list of Other Founding Fathers (and Mothers) open for additions. As to what those possibilities might be, your guess is as good as mine. Allreet (talk) 02:26, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to voting rationales, continued...

You've run this by us before. You can't jump to conclusions about Bernstein about what he didn't list in his appendix in reference to the Constitution only. And you're still trying to push the idea that the sources must use the exact phrase of "founding father", regardless if they cover in detail the founding process without using that specific phrase. Sorry, but the word game and the empty conjecture has long since gotten a bit stale and only indicates that you've simply become too angry to acknowledge much of anything, even when its spelled for of you in dozens of cases. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We can't take A and B from sources and conclude C on our own. A - Ben Franklin signed the Declaration (Morris, p.1), B - The Declaration is a founding document (Ellis, p.2), C - Ben Franklin is a founder. C needs a source. For one, are signers of founding documents automatically founders? Is involvement in the founding process a Pass Go card for founderhood? Maybe the answer is "yes", but that affirmation can only be made by sources. We also can't use Morris and Ellis as the source/basis for C, because that's using multiple sources to make an assertion. For confirmation of these statements, refer to WP:NOR. The first paragraph covers some of these thoughts, while the Synthesis section addresses the A+B=C. "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source".

As for angry? Not at all. With AGF in mind, I'll assume you don't understand you're spending more words on me than on content. Allreet (talk) 05:21, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above quote from Bernstein is consistent with this one.
"The efforts to create these documents of political foundation, whether the state constitutions, or the Articles of Confederation, r the Constitution of the United States, often divided Americans."^[2] Your attempt to write off Bernstein as someone who doesn't regard the A.O.C. as something written by the founders ignores much of the history and has no basis. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:58, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For whatever reason, you left out the last three words of the quote: "The efforts to create these documents of political foundation, whether the state constitutions, or the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States, often divided Americans, including founding fathers.." This gives the sentence a different meaning, the fact that the founders were divided on all such documents. The meaning you hope to construe is that the Articles = founding document. If that's Bernstein's meaning, the same would be true of state constitutions. But of course he meant nothing of the kind. It's OR to take "documents of political foundation" and translate it into "founding document" because that was not the author's intent. Allreet (talk) 15:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — You're obviously reaching for something to ace the debate at this juncture. Leaving out the last three words doesn't change anything, esp since I've acknowledged that there was much debate among the founders over the A.O.C. time and again. Thanks for acknowledging that the source mentioned founding fathers. Was there anything else? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not "reaching". Just darn curious regarding what conscious choice would lead you to drop "founding fathers" in a discussion about founding fathers. Allreet (talk) 01:47, 26 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• The historical paradigm runs directly head-on bulls-eye smack against the claim you espouse, promote, and attempt to establish as fact. Yes, the work has been done; I speak not of what I do not know and I know what I speak of. Seems you believe that the majority of editors in these discussions are blind, ignorant, or have some centuries-old axe to grind against the confederales. Ah, well. -The Gnome (talk) 19:50, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@The Gnome: — All you're giving us are empty claims, with nothing but more claims to support them, and some notion about me having an axe to grind. Many sources have been provided, which run contrary to your repeated and unsupported claim about the "historical paradigm". I have "espoused" no claims of my own and have only cited dozens of sources that support the idea that the Articles of Confederation were an important stage in the founding process. All you have done is ignore them categorically with empty rhetoric about my person. The fact that many of the articles in the A.O.C. are found in the Constitution itself should have given you something of a clue to its importance. Both documents were composed and signed by representatives, both written by the Continental Congress, both served as a central government to the states, facts which you've chosen to ignore. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:14, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, your mis-use of quotes and sources indicates your bias, that is, your "axe to grind". And you have "espoused claims of your own" by taking sources and finding meanings within them that the sources do not express. So it's a good thing we're ignoring what you say because either your points are irrelevant (e.g., the connection between the AOC and Constitution) or a less than accurate representation of the sources being cited. Allreet (talk) 17:08, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — More empty claims and accusations. I quote the sources as I see them and bold key points. If this is a "distortion" for you, then behold. You've dumped on every source that's been presented with this sort of talk, --every one-- even sources you've introduced, so at this point its really sort of difficult to take someone who incessantly cries wolf at every turn very seriously.
The Articles of Confederation were in place about eight years, and were routinely debated and criticized, just as the Constitution was and is, and which carries many of the same provisions found in the A.O.C. – yet you're still trying to tell us that this eight year period, had nothing to do with the founding process that led up to that Constitution.

• "Many of the proposed powers of government set out in the Articles were to be repeated, some in haec verba, in the later Constitution."^[3]
• "Congress was given broad powers, and the language of the Articles often foreshadows the language of the Constitution drafted by the Convention of 1787.^[4]
  -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:44, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"I quote sources as I see them and bold key points" - in truth, what you do is cherry pick quotes, present them out of context, and bold things to give them meaning the authors did not intend. Your bolding, as in the two bullet points above, usually points to issues that are irrelevant - in this case, the connection between the Articles and Constitution. The end result of this is you've ballooned the discussion beyond all reasonable bounds. That's why I initially said I wasn't going to discuss the merits of the AOC, only the question raised by the RFC. Unfortunately (to some degree like a fool), I got sucked into another game of whack a mole. Hey look, a squirrel! The necessary part, however, is that you've distorted what sources say and provided a slew of references of zero importance, for example, the works of five children's authors. Did you miss this or did you think nobody would notice? Allreet (talk) 20:30, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It would be "cherry picking" if I was intentionally leaving out key points, none of which you have ever brought to the table in regard to any historian I've quoted. Typically, all you make are accusations and empty claims with nothing to substantiate them. And bolding doesn't "distort" anything if the quote is accurate. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:41, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You did exactly that with the quote from Bernstein. You left out "including founding fathers". So, yes, I have brought such issues to the table. Of course, you never respond to them, for example, your use of children's books as sources or providing quotes and bolding certain words to create implications. Now tell me, you don't give consideration to tactics like this? You're just like an umpire in a baseball game "calling 'em as you see 'em". Yeah, sure. Allreet (talk) 00:02, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is the same 'talk' you made above. See my reply there. You have not brought anything to the table that would undermine any quotes from any given historian I've presented, which at this point are numerous. "Yeah sure"? Please refrain from this sort of repetitious talk which you've been resorting to all along, it's clogging up the talk page, which at this point appears to be your intention. i.e.Can't refute the points so let's just muddy the waters. Easily discerned from a mile away. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:56, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion continued

@Gwillhickers is proposing criteria that suits his purpose: "All we need do is support the idea that they were present, etc." What we do need to do is find sources that identify founding fathers directly, not by a "rule of thumb" of some editor's invention.

This means sources that say things like "the following individuals founded the USA through their roles in the Continental Congress", followed by a list or their names. Or "signers of the XYZ document are regarded as founding fathers". Or "because they served in top military positions during the Revolution, the following are viewed by most historians as founders". Or "Thomas Linden is regarded as a founding father for having written..." In short, references by historians to founders that clearly identify them as such, not a formula that has us determining who qualifies. Allreet (talk) 12:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — This is merely yet another attempt at the same failed argument. "Gwillhickers is proposing criteria that suits his purpose:" My "purposes" are to keep the article from being chopped up on the basis that the term Founding Father doesn't occur as often as you like, for your purposes, while the sources clearly put the representative delegates in the middle of the drafting, debating and signing of the Articles of Confederation, and do so without always using the term founding father. However, I've provided several sources that mention Founding Fathers which you once again are ignoring.

• "The Articles of Confederation also helps create a personal connection with the Founding Fathers who wrote it so long ago".^[5]
• "The Framers of the Articles of Confederation created a government based on the sovereignty of thirteen separate states."^[6]
• "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[7]
  See other such sources:

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:08, 20 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the misuse of these references:

• Bernstein's Founding Fathers Reconsidered, one of the three most important books on the founders, is being cherry-picked and then distorted by @Gwillhickers. His use of the quotes on p. 6 and p. 57 go beyond the author's intent. I've addressed these issues in more detail in their locations above.
• Sonneborn, who has no historical credentials, has published a series of non-fiction books for juveniles. Her 48-page book on the Articles is intended for the 7th grade reading level.
• Callahan is one source I don't have access to. His quote, however, could just as well be used to prove the opposite of Gwillhickers's intent. A "government based on the sovereignty of thirteen separate states" would not describe the government established by the Constitution. IOW, the Articles "founded" something other than the US as we know it.
• Padover's paper remains the one reliable source on the connection between the Articles and the nation's founding. The "grains of salt" with Padover are that he's an outlier among historians in offering this view, and second, he wrote his paper in 1958, before the extensive scholarship that led up to the Bicentennial in 1976. Historians who came after him (in particular, Morris, Ellis, and Bernstein) had greater access to the papers of the founders, which were voluminous as well as crucial to our understanding of the founding period. Allreet (talk) 16:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since posting the above, I've found that Callahan's book is also aimed at a juvenile audience. However, I couldn't find any biographical information on the author. Allreet (talk) 06:18, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Statement/sources supporting the AOC as a founding document

• "The Articles of Confederation also helps create a personal connection with the Founding Fathers who wrote it so long ago".^[1]
• "The Framers of the Articles of Confederation created a government based on the sovereignty of thirteen separate states."^[2]
• "Our First Constitution: The Articles of Confederation".^[3]
• "At the time they were adopted, the Articles created the strongest confederation in history. They vested the federal government in Congress."^[4]
• "The Articles of Confederation—their great purpose being to unite the Colonies more firmly and efficiently in the effort for liberty—but imperfectly defined and established the functions of government^[5]
• "The efforts to create these documents of political foundation, whether the state constitutions, or the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States, often divided Americans.^[6]
• "The Articles functioned as the first national constitution of the United States and, as such, reflected American political theory as it emerged during the Revolution. Equally important, a textual analysis reveals the extent to which the 1787 Constitution was a logical extension of the Articles of Confederation."^[7]
• "...authorizing Congress to send diplomatic representatives to European nations to secure alliances and win recognition of American independence and the other authorizing the framing of “articles of confederation and perpetual union”' to bind the thirteen states together into an American Union.^[8]
• "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[9]
• "The drafters of the Articles of Confederation doubtless anticipated forming an adequate national government".^[10]
• "The First Founding’s conception of democratic sovereignty and collective identity as embodied in the Articles of Confederation."^[11]
• "The engrossed Articles of Confederation' holds an important place in U.S. history. It was signed by men who stepped forward to declare that the United States was an independent country with its own government. When we see the document and the signatures, written by the founding fathers with quills on parchment."^[12]
• "The Articles of Confederation : the first constitution of the United States": The Articles of Confederation passed from history, but its contributions to the Constitution and the new national government endured. The first five presidents and four of the first five vice presidents had been delegates to Congress under the Articles.^[13]
• " The Founding Fathers intended to build a new nation, with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation. -- "The Founding Fathers began using the Articles of Confederation to guide the new nation..." -- " The founders had established a new nation with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation."^[14]
• "The Continental Congress adopted the Articles of Confederation, the first constitution of the United States, on November 15, 1777."^[15]
• "The Articles of Confederation were adopted by the Continental Congress on November 15, 1777. This document served as the United States' first constitution.^[16]
• "Articles of Confederation, first U.S. constitution (1781–89), which served as a bridgee between the initial government by the Continental Congress of the Revolutionary period and the federal government provided under the U.S. Constitution of 1787.^[17]
• "The Articles of Confederation served as the written document that established the functions of the national government of the United States after it declared independence from Great Britain."^[18]
• "Congress was given broad powers, and the language of the Articles often foreshadows the language of the Constitution drafted by the Convention of 1787.^[19]
• "Many of the proposed powers of government set out in the Articles were to be repeated, some in haec verba, in the later Constitution."^[20]
• "Most scholars identify as founding fathers the politicians during the American Revolution, the Confederation period, and the early Republic."^[21]
• Rakove, Jack N. (1979). The beginnings of national politics. Random House USA Inc; 1st edition.
• "Indeed, there is a conceptual sense in which our very identification of the Founding as a Founding presupposes that the Philadelphia Convention acted without legal warrant under the preexisting Articles. If this were not the case, the real Founders of our Republic were the folks who wrote and ratified the Articles of Confederation; the Philadelphia Convention simply gained the ratification of some sweeping "amendments" to the Founding document."^[22]

This quote leaves out Ackerman's conclusion: ""Since modern lawyers do not trace the origin of the Republic to the Articles of Confederation but to the Constitution of 1787, the discovery of some Founding illegalities confirms, rather than denies, their sense of the overall shape of our constitutional past." Allreet (talk) 10:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

• Bellia, Anthony J.; Clark, Bradford R. (May 2020). "THE INTERNATIONAL LAW ORIGINS OF AMERICAN FEDERALISM". Columbia Law Review. 120 (4). Columbia Law Review Association, Inc.: 835–940. JSTOR 26915803.
• Altman, John A. (May 2003). "The Articles and the Constitution: Similar in Nature, Different in Design". Pennsylvania Legacies. 3 (1). University of Pennsylvania Press: 20–21. JSTOR 27764871.
• Young, Rowland L. (November 1977). "The Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union". American Bar Association Journal. 63 (11). American Bar Association: 1572–1575. JSTOR 20745080.
• Swindler, William F. (February 1981). "Our First Constitution: The Articles of Confederation". American Bar Association Journal. 67 (2). American Bar Association: 166–169. JSTOR 20746978.
• Lutz, Donald S. (Winter 1990). "The Articles of Confederation as the Background to the Federal Republic". Publius. 20 (1). Oxford University Press: 55–70. JSTOR 3330362.
• Callahan, Kerry P. (2003). The Articles of Confederation : a primary source investigation into the document that preceded the U.S. Constitution. New York, NY : Rosen Primary Source.
• Cocke, William Archer (1858). The constitutional history of the United States, from the adoption of the Articles of Confederation to the close of Jackson's administration. Philadelphia, Lippincott.
• Bernstein, Richard B. (2009). The Founding Fathers reconsidered. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-1998-32576.
• Padover, Saul (Summer 1958). "THE WORLD OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS". Social Research. 25 (2). The Johns Hopkins University Press. JSTOR 40982556.
• Smith, Robert W. (January 2017). "DEFENDING THE RICE BARREL: FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND THE RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION IN SOUTH CAROLINA". The South Carolina Historical Magazine. 18 (1). South Carolina Historical Society: 37–59. JSTOR 45149585.
• Lim, Elvin (Spring 2014). "Political Thought, Political Development, and America's Two Foundings". American Political Thought. 3 (1). The University of Chicago Press: 146–156. JSTOR 10.1086/675650.
• Price Hossell, Karen (2004). The Articles of Confederation. Chicago, Ill. : Heinemann Library. ISBN 978-1-4034-08006.
• Rebman, Renée C. (2006). The Articles of Confederation. Minneapolis, Minn. : Compass Point Books. ISBN 978-0-7565-16277.
• Feinberg, Barbara Silberdick (2002). The Articles of Confederation: the first constitution of the United States. Brookfield, Conn. : Twenty-First Century Books. Feinberg holds a Ph.D. in Political Science from Yale University
• National Archives
• Encyclopedia Britannica
• United States Department of State: Office of the Historian
• Ackerman, Bruce A. (1991). We the people. Vol. I. Cambridge, Mass. : Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-6749-48402.
• Ellis, Joseph J. (2007). Founding fathers : the essential guide to the men who made America. Hoboken, N.J. : John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-0-4701-17927. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Distorted use of sources

@Gwillhickers seems to think if he can load up the RFC with every book and paper on the subject and then selectively quote them, nobody will be able to track down the truth. In almost every case, he's mis-represented what these sources say in regards to the actual founding (almost nothing). Of course, a work on the Articles is going to have positive things to mention, yet all of his cherry-picked passages fall short of saying anything about the founding or for that matter, founders.
Some typical examples:

• Callahan - "created a government based on sovereignty" actually points out that the Articles created the wrong form of government. The Articles at best created a precarious union and at worst an all but unworkable government,.
• Young - "created the greatest confederation" makes the same point, that the Articles created something other than the United States.
• Price - "the Articles holds an important place in history" is something nobody denies but says nothing in terms of founding the nation.
• Smith - "drafters anticipated forming an adequate national government". Yet we know for sure they failed to do so. Is this the best the source has to say?
• Library of Congress - everyone recognizes the Articles as the "first constitution". Yet after four months only one source can be found that recognizes it as a founding document.

The most egregious cases of distortion:

• Bernstein - rejects the Articles as a founding document and instead devotes most of his book to the Declaration and Constitution. Gwillhickers cites Bernstein's highly authoritative book (one of the five most important on the Founding Fathers) several times as if it supports his premise when it's diametrically opposed to this POV.
• National Archives - the leading authority on the nation's founding (sponsors Founders Online, a consortium of major universities and publishers) ignores the Articles as a founding document and instead recognizes the Declaration, Federalist Papers, Constitution, and Bill of Rights (see my link). Gwillhickers's link to the Archives website provides the full document but without any reference to the nation's founding. The link's use in this context is highly misleading, as if the Archives ascribes special importance to the document.
• Encyclopedia Britannica's thorough Founding Fathers article makes no mention whatsoever of the Articles. Britannica's founders article, by Joseph Ellis (Pulitzer Prize for Founding Brothers, another leading work on the subject), instead highlights "the liberal ideas celebrated in the Declaration of Independence, and the republican form of government defined in the United States Constitution" in its lead sentence.

Gwillhickers goes on to list all of these sources again a few paragraphs later. Yet only one of these sources (Padover) refers to the Articles as a founding document and none of the others refers to its signers as founders or founding fathers. Allreet (talk) 14:06, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sources speak for themselves

User:Allreet once again tries to distort what the sources say. He claims Berstein "rejects" the idea of the A.O.C. as a founding document simply on the basis that Bernstein doesn't mention it, even though Bernstein refers to it in relation to the Constitution several times. Allreet tries to advance this idea with every source he's listed above, that if they don't mention the A.O.C. as a founding document, they therefore "reject" it, or "don not regard" it as being part of the founding process, with no regard that the A.O.C. was the first Constitution of the U.S. He then tries to advance the idea that since the A.O.C had defects it was therefore (leap!) not part of the founding process, which is yet another one of his attempts at original research. He rejects the idea that since the A.O.C. was eventually replaced by the Constitution it was not an important step in its drafting and ratification, even though the A.O.C. and the Constitution share many of the same basic ideas. The shortcomings of the A.O.C. was what inspired the improvements found in the Constitution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If sources don't say AOC = founding document or AOC signers = founders, what's an editor to do? Figure it out on his own? Piece together different historical observations and reach a conclusion?

Bernstein "simply doesn't mention it" because he and other leading experts recognize other documents and their signers. Not much else you or I believe really matters. Things like the founding process, what the AOC and Constitution share, the AOC's shortcomings and most other arguments you raise prove nothing and mean nothing in terms of whether signers of the AOC are considered founders. Allreet (talk) 00:13, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "The First Founding’s conception of democratic sovereignty and collective identity as embodied in the Articles of Confederation."^[1]
• "The drafters of the Articles of Confederation doubtless anticipated forming an adequate national government".^[2]
• "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[3]
• "The Articles of Confederation : the first constitution of the United States": The Articles of Confederation passed from history, but its contributions to the Constitution and the new national government endured. The first five presidents and four of the first five vice presidents had been delegates to Congress under the Articles.^[4]

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:37, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a founder in our future? Allreet (talk) 06:20, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bernstein, in Founding Fathers Reconsidered, a 227-book, includes passing references to the Articles of Confederation on all of 13 pages. Meanwhile, his Appendix, pages 177-180, lists all the signers/framers of the Declaration and Constitution, plus other founders with no mention whatsoever of the Articles. As for original research, here's a doozy: "AOC's shortcomings inspired improvements in the Constitution", That would true in the same way car wrecks improve our driving. It should be noted @Gwillhickers has nothing to say about his misuse of other references. Allreet (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship between the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution

You're typically rehashing the same failed argument. i.e.Brunstein only lists the signers, but not those of the A.O.C. The A.O.C. was a political entity of representatives, just as the Constitution was and is, and that the A.O.C.'s shortcomings are what prompted the improvements made in that Constitution. Improvements aren't made unless there is a need for them, and the A.O.C. was central to that process, which is covered by many sources. Bernstein, which you hold up as "highly authoritative", covers this process, that while reviewing and debating the Articles of Confederation, it was determined that simply amending this document would not be sufficient.
"At first, the delegates had to decide whether they would act as a constitutional convention or not. About half the states had chosen delegates to the convention on the understanding that the delegates would propose only amendments to the Articles of Confederation, rather than replacing the Articles with a new constitution. Only after the delegates decided that revising the Articles would not solve the problems facing the United States did the meeting become a true constitutional convention."^[1] On page 57, Berstein refers to the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution as "documents of political foundation".
"The efforts to create these documents of political foundation, whether the state constitutions, or the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States, often divided Americans."^[2] (Emphasis added) -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:14, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You left out the end of this quote, the words "including founding fathers". Of course if you had left that in, it might imply what I've been stating: that the founding fathers were disgusted with the Articles of Confederation. The interesting truth is the Articles created the "Perpetual Union" and because of the Articles the Union almost completely fell apart, in which case, there would have been no United States of America. Allreet (talk) 22:12, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that the Articles of Confederation fed right into the Constitution is easily found covered in the sources:
"Congress was given broad powers, and the language of the Articles often foreshadows the language of the Constitution drafted by the Convention of 1787.^[3]

"Many of the proposed powers of government set out in the Articles were to be repeated, some in haec verba, in the later Constitution."^[4] -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:17, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your quotes prove what? That Bernstein is aware the AOC existed and had some significance? Apparently not enough because as with the National Archives, Encyclopedia Britannica, Brown, Congress.gov, and other sources, he recognizes the Declaration and Constitution as founding documents, and not the AOC. Allreet (talk) 00:26, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You cherry pick quotes from Bernstein that have favorable things to say but leave out others, for example:

• On p. 56: Under the Articles, "Congress had created a 'firm league of friendship' that fell short of being a consolidated Union or a true government for the United States".
• Also on p. 56: "the problems facing the Confederation raised the question whether Americans could preserve the great principles animating the American Revolution and its greatest achievements - independence, liberty, and Union".
• On p, 68: "In the years following the war's end, state governments tended to ignore the Articles of Confederation, leaving it all but powerless".

There's no point quoting passages on the Articles' weaknesses, but overall, Bernstein has little to say about the AOC and instead focuses on the Declaration and Constitution. A source for you he's not. Allreet (talk) 01:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still trying to leap to conclusions for Berstein on the basis of what he didn't say, while avoiding the fact that he referred to the A.O.C as a founding document, and that it was reviewed and debated before it was decided that a Constitution needed to be drafted, while it was also pointed out just above, and elsewhere, that the A.O.C. contained many of the provisions found in the Articles, and while you carry on as if the two documents, both drafted by the Continental Congress, were from different planets. You've denied everything. Sad. This last bunch of quotes you just cherry picked, while you ignore the others, only verifies what I been saying, that the A.O.C. had its shortcomings and is what brought on the demand for a stronger Constitution. Thanks for expanding on that point. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:33, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you're putting words in your sources' mouths. "He referred to the AOC as a founding document". That's not what his text says. You're translating a general statement about all documents that laid "political foundations" to mean something different. Otherwise, based on his statement, ''all'' documents adopted by state legislatures and the national Congress are to be regarded as "founding documents". So I suppose everyone who served in state and national offices and voted for political documents circa 1760s-1790s is to be considered a founder? As you've done throughout our conversation, you've again ventured into the realm of Original Research with your approach to sources. Allreet (talk) 11:46, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's yet another source that clearly supports the idea the the A.O.C. played an important role in the founding of the Constitution.

"Certain provisions of the Articles were either incorporated intact in the Constitution or established precedents expanded upon by the Convention. Many of the prohibitions on state action imposed by the Articles were retained in the Constitution."^[5] -- Gwillhickers (talk) 02:11, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That quote proves what in terms of identifying founding fathers? If that's A in a proposition, you need a B and probably a C to reach D about founders as a conclusion. The fact is, nobody in all that's been written about the AOC has referred to its signers as founders, except for one source. Allreet (talk) 11:50, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a better quote from Rakove, from his paper The Legacy of the Articles of Confederation: "the Articles...led the framers of the Constitution to conclude, with remarkably few reservations, that only a fundamental revision of the federal structure could preserve the union". Rakove makes no reference in his 23-page paper to the founding or founders. Allreet (talk) 06:29, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The quotes outline the process and what occurred leading up to the framing, founding or establishment of the Constitution, and once again, you are trying to write everything off on the basis that some of the sources don't use the word "founding", even though some of the signers were indeed referred to as founders, including. Yes, you introduced Padover who indeed used your pet word, but so have the others. Not one? Sorry , but your above attempt at algebra doesn't refute the history. You were the one who said, "As for original research, here's a doozy: "AOC's shortcomings inspired improvements in the Constitution". That you thought all this was "extraordinary" and the product of original research only tells us you're not debating the history, ignorant about the A.O.C. and the Constitution itself and are, once again, digressing to your same old word game. One phrase.

"The fact is, nobody in all that's been written about the AOC has referred to its signers as founders, except for one source. "

• "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[6]

• "The engrossed Articles of Confederation' holds an important place in U.S. history. It was signed by men who stepped forward to declare that the United States was an independent country with its own government. When we see the document and the signatures, written by the founding fathers with quills on parchment."^[7]

• "The Articles of Confederation also helps create a personal connection with the Founding Fathers who wrote it so long ago".^[8]

• "The Founding Fathers intended to build a new nation, with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation.

• "The Founding Fathers began using the Articles of Confederation to guide the new nation..."

• "The founders had established a new nation with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation."^[9]

• "Most scholars identify as founding fathers the politicians during the American Revolution, the Confederation period, and the early Republic."^[10]

"...except for one source"? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:37, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Three of these sources are children's books: Price, Sonneborn and Rebman. And again, you're misquoting Bernstein. You still have one source, Padover. Allreet (talk) 23:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear about the last quote, from R.B. Bernstein's The Founding Fathers Reconsidered: I just "called out" @Gwillhickers on this in another post. He's bolded "founding fathers" and "Confederation" as if the two are connected. First of all, "the Confederation period" covers 10 years or so, 1777-1787. Gwillhickers apparently is trying to imply that Bernstein means the "Articles of Confederation" when he's doing nothing more than referring to a period of time. What makes this all the more misleading is that Bernstein's book is about the signers of the Declaration and Constitution as founders, plus a few other patriotic souls, the signers of the Articles not being among them. Allreet (talk) 00:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"The first five presidents and four of the first five presidents had been delegates to Congress under the Articles" is either a distortion or a non sequitur. The five presidents in question - Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe - all served in the Congress after the AOC was adopted, and all had a role in replacing the Articles with the Constitution. For the most part, the same can be said of the vice presidents - they had nothing to do with the adoption of the Articles. The one exception is Elbridge Gerry who voted for and signed the both the Declaration and AOC. So either this statement is irrelevant or @Gwillhickers is attempting to give the impression these founders supported the Articles of Confederation. Allreet (talk) 16:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: Yes, it says "the first five presidents had been delegates to Congress under the articles". Now you're objecting to any historical context as yet another "distortion"? You were smart enough to see the distinction, written in plain English, please assume a little good faith and assume the rest of us will. Apparently you're going to make such claims in every instance about each source with the hope that they will be lost in the wash, and when it comes time to close the RfC, the closer(s) will just look at the miles of talk (blur) overlook the sources and just count the votes and be done with it. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:29, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's the relevance of the statement. What's your point about five presidents serving in the Congress of Confederation? That's not a "historical context", but a pointed reference. So your actual point is...?

As for the ability of "closers" to wade through our reams of material, I apologize for whatever I've done to contribute to their ordeal. Just the same, I'm certain they'll be able to discern wheat from chaff. IOW, not much is likely to be "lost in the wash". Allreet (talk) 20:43, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quotations/sources fail to identify founders (one exception)

I have access to all the sources except the first. Here's an assessment, then, of @Gwillhickers's use of sources:

• Only one of the excerpts mentions founding fathers, but, none offers anything in the way of identifying specific founders.
• Five of the first six sources, the 2nd through the 6th, are papers from JSTOR that I've cited before. None of them identifies anyone as founders.
• Bernstein is cited twice, yet he recognizes signers of the Declaration and Constitution, not those who signed the Articles. Also, the two quotes from his book mispresent his overall views of the Articles.
• Padover's paper is a reliable source, but an outlier and somewhat dated. However, I wouldn't quibble if he were cited along with other similarly reliable and explicit sources. Allreet (talk) 00:52, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since I wrote the above, @Gwillhickers has added several sources that prove nothing. National Archives, for example, has a link to the Articles that says nothing about their significance. The link to Encyclopedia Britannica's AOC article says nothing about its signers being founders. The US Department of State link provides more about the AOC's weaknesses than its virtues. Gwillhickers apparently believes that if he cites everything that's ever been written about the AOC, someone is bound to be impressed. The fact is Britannica's Founding Fathers article says nothing about the significance of the AOC. The National Archives does not recognize it as a founding document and assigns far more importance in terms of the founding to the Declaration, Constitution, Federalist Papers and Bill of Rights. Allreet (talk) 12:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources clearly identify those involved in the founding

@Allreet: You're attempting to use the same failed arguments all over again, demanding that the word "founding" be used in every instance, making unsupported claims about Bernstein, and now quibbling about a source, which you provided, as being "dated", esp since Padover clearly referred to the Continental Congress and the AOC as being composed of Founding Fathers. Bersterin is "cited twice" for two different statements, btw. Meanwhile you ignore terms like "created" ... "established" ... "framing", while you also ignore the idea that "The Articles functioned as the first national constitution of the United States". But as far as you're concerned none of this had anything to do with the founding. This is clearly more of your continued stonewalling, while you continue to ignore the history.
Once again, all that is required to support the idea of anyone as a founder is to provide sources that cover the founding process, per the Continental Congress, AOC, DOI and Constitution. If anyone was a member of any of these entities, and/or a signatory of any of the documents, then it goes that they were present, involved in the debates, adopted the document in question, and hence part of the founding process. Now here you are making the claim that the AOC had nothing to do with the Constitution. Or are you assuming that the various members were not involved in any of the debates, didn't oversee the adoption and just signed a document completely ignorant about matters? That's what you argument boils down to -- blind assumptions and original research. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:59, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If all that you said is true - it's not - we still couldn't confer the title on anyone. Only sources can. With that, I'm not ignoring anything, other than your attempts to do what historians do. You seem to have scoured the literature fairly well, and yet you haven't found one reference on your own (I provided Padover) that says the AOC's signer are founders. What mystifies me is that you think we can reach such specific conclusions on our own independent of sources. Thankfully, that privilege is not ours because of the responsibility associated with it. Allreet (talk) 17:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I've provided plenty of sources that cover the founders and the founding process, and you've been trying to avoid all this history with your continued insistence that a source must use the exact term Founding Father, nothing else matters to you, while you still have yet to back this up with actual WP policy that supports your opinion in no uncertain terms. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:41, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've provided no sources on your own, other than the works of children's authors, that address signers = founders. And I just re-posted what WP:VER and WP:NOR have to say on the use of sources. You're violating those policies by drawing conclusions your sources don't state. Yes, generally, perhaps, maybe the Articles of Confederation "established", "created" or otherwise caused the United States of America to be, but we can't say that someone who signed this docuent is a "founder" or "founding father" unless a source actually says he is. Yet with the hundreds of papers, articles, and books that have been written on the subject, the best you can do is some books for junior high students? So to say "plenty of sources" is yet another distortion, a misrepresentation of the truth. Allreet (talk) 20:57, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Founding is not the issue — founders are

@Gwillhickers: Failed in what respect? By living up to WP:VER and related guidelines? What I'm "demanding" are sources that identify founders. So I provided one to help show you the level of verification required. Padover is direct and explicit in identifying those he believes to be founders, which is true of all the sources I posted. What you're doing instead is presenting sources that "prove" things related to the founding and then connecting...I really don't know whom since you haven't offered any sources that identify founders. Allreet (talk)

Alerts for: @Randy Kryn, Rjensen, and Robert McClenon: ...

• @Allreet: — Your attempt to hold the ideas of "founding" and "founders" as entities from two different planets comes off as stonewalling. For purposes of a list of founders, all we need do is show that they were members of the given different political founding entities. There are over 130 names in the list, among 4 different categories; Are you expecting that we provided multiple sources/citations for each and every individual in the list, under every category they are listed as signatories, that specifically says e.g.'Congressman Smith' was a "founding father". ? Are you really prepared to do that? The sources clearly show the AOC was involved in the founding, was "the first national constitution of the United States", and its various short comings are what prompted the improvements which fed right into the drafting and ultimate ratification of the Constitution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

On a subject of this importance, if all you can find is one source that explicitly supports a premise, you have a POV that's in an extreme minority, especially considering the "prevailing view" (Declaration and Constitution as founding documents) is supported by at least six sources, including the most authoritative on the subject. Allreet (talk) 14:19, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Part of what we're dealing with also is that a book isn't going to be published unless it is expected to make a profit for the publisher. This is why we're not going to see a dedicated biography for signatories like Abraham Baldwin, David Brearley, etc. While you're willing to keep signers of the Constitution in the list of founders, can you provided multiple sources for e.g. Jacob Broom and Pierce Butler, both of whom only signed the Constitution? There are 23 names of men who only signed the Constitution, most of them with names hardly anyone is familiar with. Can you provided "multiple sources" which say that all of these men were "founding fathers", in those exact words? If you are not willing to provided "multiple sources" that say individuals like Broom or Butler were "Founding Fathers", along with all the others, then you can not expect anyone to do so for the other signers. If we follow your method we will be removing many signatories of both the Constitution and the Declaration from the article also.-- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:51, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's a ton of material available on Abraham Baldwin, who was not only a US founder (for signing the Constitution) but the founding father of public education in the US. The Georgia Historical Society tells his full story with links to five essays and as source materials lists two books and two papers. Biographies abound on other founders, including David Brearley, not always books but enough to recount their lives here in Wikipedia. Allreet (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is intended to be a summary of the literature, not a correction of same. If the literature does not talk about Broom or Butler in depth, then we don't have anything to summarize. Binksternet (talk) 00:24, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was asserted, on several occasions, that we were supposed to provide "multiple sources" that say Founding Father in regards to individual signers of the Continental Association, and now, for the Articles of Confederation – political entities that are represented by the "summary of literature" as being part of the "founding", or" establishing", or "framing" of representative government in America. Again, if multiple sources that employ the term Founding Father are expected to be used for signers of the AOC, then we must employ the same method for all signers, in every instance, including men who only signed the Constitution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 01:22, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I alone were wrestling with this topic, trying to get a handle on the complexity, trying to summarize it properly for our readers, I would ditch any automatic assignation of FF status based on the signing of documents, and instead move to an inclusion criteria based on in-depth discussion in the published sources. Of course I would tell the reader that different historians define the topic differently, comparing them. But I would limit the featured names to only those who were strongly represented in significant detail in sources. So Broom and Butler would certainly fall by the wayside, along with many more. Binksternet (talk) 02:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Automatic designation" would be a violation of WP:NOR because the reference would not be explicit - but implicit. However, if a source says all signers of a document are founders and then lists the individual signers, this would be clear and direct. It also means we couldn't drop Broom and Butler, not if they're specifically listed by historians such as Bernstein and Brown and institutions such the National Archives and Harvard. I should also add that they're both recognized by other reliable sources and then by many that are not so reliable, but together, this wide recognition would represent the prevailing view.

In response to @Gwillhickers, yes, we need multiple, high-quality sources to identify individuals as founding fathers. As for signers of the Declaration and Constitution, I've provided five sources, in the section below, each of which identifies them by name and explicitly states they are founders or founding fathers. I believe a similarly rigorous level of verification should be required for identifying other founders in either the Founding Fathers article or individual biographies. Allreet (talk) 04:09, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Allreet — It is not merely 'implied' that the given members were founders, because the Continental Congress was composed of those very members. i.e.The members were the Congress. There is nothing 'implied' here when we mention one of its members by name as a founder. Bear in mind that many of the people Bernstein mentions as founders also signed the C.A. and the A.O.C., so are we going to keep their names listed under those categories and remove some of the others, simply because you can't find the term "Founding Father" used in reference to the given names in question, even if their collective roles of the founding or framing are covered. We'll be giving the readers a half baked listing on that account because these documents were signed by every member of Congress during the time in question. The entire group of members and signers of the various documents were founders, or framers, or those who established representative government, and to pluck out various individuals from this group because you can't find a source that refers to a given individual as a Founding Father, verbatim, is really a little silly, given all the sources that cover the founding process. If we're going to adapt this needless and rigidly academic approach to citing the article then we will have to cite each and every individual name with multiple i.e.at least three, citations, each one specifically referring to a given individual as a Founding Father. This is what you have been calling for throughout the discussions for the last couple of months, so we would have to hold you to that if the RfC's are approved on that rigid basis. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:55, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A round-up of dictates from WP:VER and WP:NOR: All assertions and conclusions must be expressed clearly and directly by the sources themselves. They cannot be drawn from various statements found in a single source or multiple sources. Editors must remain true to what sources say, which does not mean quoting verbatim but restating accurately. In paraphrasing, we cannot take what a source says generally and then craft something specific that is not explicitly stated by the source. Multiple reliable sources are required for extraordinary claims. If any of these dictates are not understood, I'm willing to provide examples to clarify their meaning. Allreet (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that a given individual was a founder because he was a delegate or member of the of the Continental Congress, a central founding entity, is nothing extraordinary. It's rather obvious – about as extraordinary as referring to a champion swimmer as an 'athlete'. We've been through this. Again, we will have to provide at least three citations for every name, in every category, in we follow your self defeating, article depleting, idea, which hinges on your own narrow interpretation of "explicit", and now, "extraordinary". i.e.Hundreds of added citations -- to a list. If you insist on subscribing to a measure, esp one which is wrongly interpreted, that is going to compromise and needlessly deplete the article, we will be forced to invoke WP:IAR. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon Such a threat means? Allreet (talk) 03:35, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Allreet - I am not sure why you are asking me what Such a threat means? . I don't read a threat in we will be forced to invoke WP:IAR. I am not sure how to interpret it, but it is not a threat. I do interpret it as a cry of frustration by one of the two "sides" in a debate that has been going on too long. I also see frustration by User:Allreet, who is on the other "side". I also see civil POV-pushing that sometimes becomes less than civil. I would say that some sort of dispute resolution is needed, except that two dispute resolution processes are already in use, a DRN thread and Requests for Comments. I would suggest that you ask the DRN moderator, User:Casualdejekyll, to either take active control of the discussion or to fail the moderation. (I have tried to ask the community at Village Pump how to deal with long-running content disputes. As you may have seen, I haven't gotten an answer because the community is not much wiser than I am.) I would ask you to ask User:Gwillhickers what they mean, but I know that you and they are not communicating. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:14, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was under the impression that my moderation was about signers of the Continental Association, which I was under the impression was a soon to be solved matter (the RfC looks like it is conclusive although I can not tell if it is closed or not). casualdejekyll 17:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon, the "threat" I perceive is that no matter how the RFCs turn out or what our guidelines say, @Gwillhickers is indicating he intends to ignore all rules and do what he wants. Not knowing WP:IAR from Adam, I don't know what that means.

Regarding frustration, that would describe my first three months of this. The past five weeks are a different matter since there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel in terms of settling the issues I've been raising - over the most basic of rules, the need for RS. In fact, I believe that this RFC and the previous one are all the dispute resolution that's needed. From there, if @Gwillhickers wants to ignore their outcomes (presuming the RFCs go against him), I suppose that's his choice though I suggest he read your response to my previous question (on 7 May 2022) regarding the options available to everyone.

BTW, I understand you're trying to be even handed with what you say, but your non-specific comment regarding "civility" implies that incivility has been occurring on both sides in the current RFC. That's absolutely not the case on my part so I think the inference is unfair. Allreet (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: I am not ignoring the rules where it concerns sourcing the idea that the Continental Association and the AOL are founding documents. What I would ignore, however, is your interpretation of the rules and your narrow take on "explicitly" and such where you are now expecting us to add hundreds of citations for each and every name, in a list, while you ignore the idea that the A.O.C. is well sourced as a founding document, drafted and debated by representative delegates, who were obviously part of the founding. But still, you need multiple sources that specifically refers to each individual by name as a founding father, knowing full well that many of the names seldomly occur in most history texts, much less in multiple sources that use a specific figure of speech. Now here you complaining to Robert about civility, even though you have had more than your fair share of it. And I must remember, your idea of incivility includes an assertive term like 'got it'.
Last, when the policy makers gave us WP:IAR they obviously had the foresight to realize that there would always be individuals who would interpret a rule to compromise and deplete an article, needlessly. Or are you going to assume, also, that they gave us that option but didn't intend for anyone to ever use it? Just for the record, in all my years of editing I never had any cause to invoke IAR, until now. Thanks so much for that. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have never said that you're ignoring the rules, except for just now when I referred to your intention to invoke WP:Ignore All Rules. What I have said previously is that you misunderstand "the rules", including the meanings of specific words they include, such as clear, direct, and explicit. As for incivility, you have sprinkled many of your responses with personal characterizations, as well as misrepresentations of what I'm saying. You just did the latter regarding my reference to "ignoring" and the former with "crying on Robert's shoulder". As for your last personal comment, one indication that things are getting very strange is when someone blames you for their behavior. Allreet (talk) 20:01, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the rules well, thank you. However, I disagree with your continued attempt to narrowly define the idea of being "explicit", by demanding that all sources must employ an exact phrase, ignoring the idea that a given idea can be explicitly expressed by using different phrases and such. The A.O.L. was founded, established, framed, instituted, by representative delegates, who were involved in the drafting, debating and signing, and as such, its signatories are all founders - not simply because they signed, but because they were present during the drafting and debating, which took more than a year before they all concurred and signed. We shouldn't be expected to ascribe multiple sources, for every individual, in each category, in reference to "founding father", anymore than we need a source to establish the idea that a swimmer "became wet" while swimming. The idea is obvious and doesn't require a source to spell this out verbatim. The signatories of the A.O.C. were involved in the founding process, and all we need do is provide sources that cover this idea well. We are not trying to advance some unusual or bizzar idea here, so this really should not have been an issue in the first place. Yet here you are, ready to take an axe to the article over this because the sources most often don't specifically mention the lesser names, much less refer to them with a specific figure of speech, and I think we can assume that you're well aware of that, and are willing to gut the article anyways, irrespective of the idea that the A.O.L. and its drafters were integral to the founding of representative government in America. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you understand how absurd it is to criticize someone for being "explicit" about the word "explicit"? And if you do understand the rules, you should understand what's stated in WP:NOR about the need for sources that are explicit. I've offered you an option for settling this, an easy one in terms of dispute resolution: Take your POV to the Help Desk for some feedback. If you can get a favorable ruling there - or anywhere - that's going to help your case much more than analogies about swimmers getting wet. Allreet (talk) 22:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I swam today for exercise and got wet, and dried myself off. What does that have to do with anything? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Founders, continued...

@Robert McClenon and Allreet: — Okay, you can belabor the analogy, but it was just used to make a simple point. If we were writing an account about a swimmer, based on e.g. a biography, and mentioned that this swimmer emerged from the pool wet, even though the source didn't use that phrase, I like to think any reasonable and intelligent reader would not contest that point. Members of the Continental Congress were involved in the founding at every stage, similarly do we really need a source that mentions each and every member as a founder, knowing the Continental Congress was the major founding entity during the revolutionary era?
Allreet, you can repeat the same line and bold the word "explicit" all you like, but you still have not made the case. One can explicitly define someone as a founding father simply by mentioning he was a member of the Continental Congress, where many sources refer to it as central to the founding, framing, etc, and without having to brand each and every member on their forehead as a founding father, verbatim. I'll ask again, as you keep avoiding the question: If you are insisting that we use multiple sources that refer to each individual as a Founding Father, would you follow your own contention and accordingly cite each and every name in the listing, with multiple sources? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can be sure I'll keep repeating these guidelines and definitions - but only as long as Wikipedia continues to repeat them. Accordingly, WP:NOR and WP:VER do a very good job "making my case".

Please quote the passage where it says we must use the exact same figures of speech, phrases, etc, in order to establish the idea that someone was a founding father. Otherwise, your particular contention, that we can only use sources that say Founding Father, verbatim, remains in the realm of opinion, still. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Dylan wrote a line that fits these arguments perfectly: "How many times must we go through all things twice?" No, for the nth time, paraphrasing is perfectly acceptable but it gets very hard to do when we're talking about very specific things. Planets in the Solar System. There are some synonyms that fit but not many. However, paraphrasing is not what you're doing, which is distilling statements and drawing conclusions. That's what WP:NOR warns about under Using Sources: "Take care not to go beyond what the sources express or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source". It's also less than explicit and at its worst, classic OR, though I know these things are impossible for you to see, so I'm sure we're going have to go through them again several more times before we're through. Allreet (talk) 23:35, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To which I'll add: The article happens to be about a particular figure of speech. It begins by expressing this idea several ways: "Founding Fathers of the United States, or simply the Founding Fathers or Founders". While other synonyms are theoretically acceptable, you won't find any of them in the article, nor any long explanations about why or how someone qualifies. As a matter of fact, all of the individuals included in the article outside the list section have sources that use at least one of the figures of speech suggested in the lead. Whenever such sources could not be found for an individual who was added to the article, that individual's name was removed. Dozens of editors have abided by this practice for many years. Except in the list section which has never had any sources for signers of the four documents. I don't think much of a case needs to be made for requiring sources that specifically identify these individuals as founders, since that's what we've done for everybody else without exception. Allreet (talk) 20:38, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're speaking in very general tones. "I don't think much of a case needs to be made for requiring sources that specifically identify these individuals as founders, since that's what we've done for everybody else without exception."
"Everybody"? There are more than 150 names in the list, even if we exclude those who only signed the C.A., there are still scores of names -- with no citations, names which you seem to have no issue with keeping regardless. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:53, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please. Read what I write more carefully. I specifically said that everyone except those in the list section has sources that refer to them as founders or founding fathers. We've done this without exception. I also specifically said this is not the case with those who are listed in the table of signers, that these individuals have never had sources. And I've indicated previously that I have sources that identify signers of the Declaration and Constitution as founders, but can find only one that recognizes AOC signers as founders. Is all that clear? Allreet (talk) 23:23, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "The Framers of the Articles of Confederation created a government based on the sovereignty of thirteen separate states."^[1]
• "At the time they were adopted, the Articles created the strongest confederation in history. They vested the federal government in Congress."^[2]

The word "created" more than substantiates the idea of "founding". To 'found' something you must create it, so all you're doing is haggling over exact phrases, still. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:18, 21 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Both bullet points disprove your point. Is our current form of government a "government of 13 sovereign states"? Is the United States a "confederation"? Of course not is the answer to both. The Constitution founded the United States as we know it. The Articles of Confederation created something completely different. Allreet (talk) 11:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong once again. The founding process was something that occurred before, during and after the American Revolution, and there are plenty of sources that support the idea, while you can not provide one source that says the drafting and ratification of the Constitution was the only advent involved in creating and developing representative government in America. Even if you could, it would run contrary to what many other sources affirm. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Still not a quote that describes signers as founders. Lots of words, lots of meanings, but none that satisfies the question raised by this RFC. Allreet (talk) 20:57, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: Still resting your entire argument on the usage of one phrase, while you continue to ignore the history, and the sources provided that do indeed use that term. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:12, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• " The Founding Fathers intended to build a new nation, with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation
  "The Founding Fathers began using the Articles of Confederation to guide the new nation..."
  " The founders had established a new nation with the Articles of Confederation as its foundation."^[3]

These quotes are from a children's author and therefore, are not reliable. Would you please try to be more careful with whom you cite and what you quote so that we can rely on you. Allreet (talk) 19:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requiring the terms "Founders" and "Founding Fathers"

@Gwillhickers has complained repeatedly I'm "demanding" that the term "Founders" or "Founding Fathers" be used by sources. I'm not sure how he expects us to identify the subject of the article "Founding Fathers of the United States". If we were writing on astronauts, flowers, swimmers, or any other topic, wouldn't we want to verify subjects' identities with sources that make at least one reference to the specific term in question?

Instead of direct references, Gwillhickers seems to believe we can glean articles for phrases and sentences that on their own or together indicate but don't actually state someone or some group of individuals qualifies for the title. The first approach fails WP:VER because the identification is neither direct nor clear. The second fails WP:NOR because it requires a synthesis of ideas and then a conclusion on the part of editors.

Meanwhile, we have two lists of signers - of the Declaration and Constitution - who are explicitly identified by multiple sources as founders. So if a reader wants to verify these lists of founders, they can reference sources where the the phrase "founders" or "founding fathers" pops off the page. But for signers of the Articles of Confederation, a reader would have to wade through paragraph after paragraph in a source and never find the term. In this approach, the reader would have to come up with the conclusion only Gwillhickers has reached: that these individuals must be founders because of this, that, and something else, that is, using criteria he has devised.

The lead sentence of the Founding Fathers article defines the terms that apply: "The Founding Fathers of the United States, or simply the Founding Fathers or Founders" (the article's emphasis, not mine). Since Gwillhickers doesn't believe sources are needed that explicitly state this, he's asking us as editors to assign the term based on our interpretations of sources. Allreet (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is the same distortion Allreet has been trying to advance, about me, for some time now. I fully support the idea that the Founding fathers should be explicitly covered by reliable sources, which doesn't always require that a source employ the exact phrase of "founding father". Some sources use the word "established", "framed" or "created", rather than "founded" or "founding". I have provided an array of sources that do this, some of them which indeed use the term "founding" and "founded", while others employ the term "created", "framed", etc. I am confident that readers with average comprehension skills will have no trouble understanding what is being said. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "about you" but rather your novel use of sources. Is this how you documented papers in high school and college? You found things and then re-worded them to fit your premises, as opposed to actually quoting your sources? Do you draw conclusions from sources and then use them to support your articles here in Wikipedia? Your "array of sources" happens to include no mention of terms such as "founding fathers", "founders", "founding documents" and so forth and, therefore, are worthless in an article about Founding Fathers. As for understanding what's being said, if anything, having this many sources that don't ever refer to signers as founders should tell you something. Allreet (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, the exact phrase of "founding founders" or simply "founders", has been made several times by the sources, and I've spelled this out for you as many, yet you keep ignoring them. Even when they don't employ that exact phrase, they still cover the founding or framing process quite well, so you need to put the sophomoric word game to rest. It's not going to fly for the impartial and objective reader with average comprehension ability. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 23:09, 23 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The more I think about, the more I'm convinced the answer is "Yes". If we're going to call somebody by a specific term, we have to have a source that uses the term or one of its acceptable synonyms. For certain, we can't do what your suggesting, that is, distill what sources say and then translate that into something they don't say clearly and directly. As for "the sources", so far I've seen only one authoritative source - the others you've posted either are not reliable or do not say what you claim they say.

Thanks for your opinion, but as long as you can't support this with a policy that says we must always used exact phrases, all we have is your opinion here. As was pointed out, the term Founding Father didn't come into popular usage until the 1940's, so we are not going to find that phrase in many of the history books, esp before that time. Regardless, if they explicitly cover the history involved this should suffice for rationale people with average intelligence. Once again, sources have been provided which employ the term Founding Father, or Founding, yet you're still ignoring them. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll repeat, then, what I've said before. "A round-up of dictates from WP:VER and 'WP:NOR: All assertions and conclusions must be expressed clearly and directly by the sources themselves. They cannot be drawn from various statements found in a single source or multiple sources. Editors must remain true to what sources say, which does not mean quoting verbatim but restating accurately. In paraphrasing, we cannot take what a source says generally and then craft something specific that is not explicitly stated by the source".

As for people of average intelligence, most would understand what I just said, but that leaves out a certain number of the same group who would not. And once again, the sources you've provided are less than reliable. You've distorted many if not most of them, including citing and quoting at least five children's authors (Callahan, Feinberg, Price, Rebman, and Sonneborn} as if they were authoritative. Allreet (talk) 19:10, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for assistance

Hi, @Robert, sorry to bother you but I just noticed that significant amounts of material have disappeared from the RFC discussion. Based on the edit history, it looks like I removed the material in question, but I know I didn't so I'm probably not reading this correctly. In any case, several back-and-forths are missing as well as an entire section. Here's the link to the edits in question. What makes no sense to me is that on this "history" page, it looks like @Gwillhickers added material I added in several separate postings, not "one fell swoop". So apparently I'm not reading these edits correctly.
In any case, would it be possible for you to restore the deleted material? And if in fact I was the one who removed it (though I can't imagine how I could have), I apologize. Thank you. Allreet (talk) 18:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon and Allreet: A few days ago I collapsed a section which contained a lot of contentious talk between Allreet and myself, as it was suggested that this be done not very long ago. I was trying to condense the Talk because as we all know it has gotten very long, thanks to Allreet and myself mostly. If anyone feels this stuff needs to be un-collapsed feel free to revert. Apologies for any inconvenience this, or any of my other edits, may have caused. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:40, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies accepted. Where exactly is the "collapsed" section? The only one I can find is the one Robert created. In any case, please leave this "function" to the moderator. I spent nearly an hour looking for something I had posted before and could no longer be found. Thank you. Allreet (talk) 19:57, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet: — Since this sub section, one of many sub sections, and sub-sub sections, occurs under the RfC main section, which I overlooked, yes, I should have left it as is. The collapsed box is under a section entitled Collapsed, as listed in the T.O.C. The section and box is located about 1 — 2 browser pages just above this message. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:18, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet and Robert McClenon: — Allreet: On 08:11, 24 May 2022 you removed a section and a lot of discussion with these two edits. I restored them. See edit history with that time/date. I'm assuming a massive deletion like this was simply an error. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:26, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I have no idea how that could have happened, but it appears the comments I was looking for are back. Equally assuring is that my "read" of the edit history was correct. And not a case of "everything you know is wrong". I do appreciate your efforts in restoring the missing material. Allreet (talk) 00:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Allreet, User:Gwillhickers - Okay, I will ignore those pings as being about a fire that has been deoxygenated. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Allreet (talk) 05:03, 25 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on Articles of Confederation

I will explain briefly what my reasoning is about the Articles of Confederation. As noted above, I think that the signers of the Articles of Confederation are Founding Fathers of the United States for two types of reasons (that do not extend back to the Continental Association).

First, in my opinion, the Articles were a necessary historical bridge between the American Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. Second, enough reliable sources agree with me that I am willing to say that reliable sources agree that the Articles of Confederation were a key to the founding of the United States. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Defense and Counter-Attack

For some reason, User:Randy Kryn said that I broke the dispute resolution on Founding Fathers of the United States. I see no basis for that allegation that is consistent both with good faith on the part of User:Randy Kryn and with his willingness to let the community resolve a content dispute. Since the assumption of good faith is a core value of the community, my conclusion is that he was not willing to let the community resolve the content dispute, and was instead trying to "win" the content dispute, possibly by filibustering or by filibustering or by cherry-picking sources. We already saw that he tried to "win" the content dispute over the Continental Association by cherry-picking of sources, and by demanding that the RFC be closed as "won".

The allegation by User:Randy Kryn that the filing of a Request for Comments, which is an established method for the resolution of content disputes, "broke" the dispute resolution is bizarre, and is very hard to reconcile with the assumption of good faith. Did he think that he had a right to have the dispute resolved in some other way, such as by edict? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:45, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe change the combative title please or, if not, maybe at least put it in Wikipedia style sentence case? Misdefining someone should not be done in the real world, and it seems obvious why I said that you and Allreet broke the Dispute resolution: there was never a participant wide-agreement to have an RfC on the Articles of Confederation and you two just went ahead and did one. Sure, of course it's your right to do it. But I wasn't consulted for either a go-ahead or for language, nor was the moderator. So that ended the dispute resolution discussion, at least for me. And of course I assume good faith that you thought it was okay to go ahead, to me good faith means to realize that the other person has a viewpoint that they are acting from and they, if asked, will usually provide an explanation and description of that viewpoint. Make sense? So to be fair I'll ask you. Why did you put up an RfC on the Articles of Confederation without at least giving all the participants a chance to join it or comment on it? Maybe you did and I missed it, there are tens of thousands of words in these almost five month discussions. Have you actually read them from the start? And who was correct in their assessment of the one question which occupied the discussion for months: did Werther's text match his paper's name. That was all we were discussing for a long time, and turns out I was right from my first post. You came in in the middle, so there's that to consider in your overall viewpoint. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon, Randy Kryn, and Allreet: — Robert, I can't speak for Randy, but I had similar feelings when you initiated a second RfC while the first one was still in progress. In any case, things seem to be working out, so let's not focus on personal issues. And just for the record, I'm no saint in that regard either - at one point I thought I was being stonewalled, but as it turns out, that was my over estimation. Time to move on and give the readers the whole picture. With all the media and various academic BS, (not all academics, btw) that's hit the fan over the last couple of decades, i.e.half truths and outright distortions, the young and naive, our major readership, have been spun. Our number one priority should be setting the record straight, with multiple reliable sources, new and old. Thanks, very much, for all your efforts. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I call dibs on the first round when we all meet up at one of the conventions (I've mentioned in several places that the next major one should be WikiVegas 2023). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:51, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's the Spirit. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 05:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Everything that went down was "by the book". Nobody "broke" anything or even bent the rules. No consensus is needed for starting a RFC, since an individual editor can initiate one. BTW, Robert was the "poster" for both of the recent RFCs; I requested the second one, but that's not an "official" role. RFCs can be started while a DRN is in progress. In this case, the DRN seemed to have run its course, since neither of the two editors were willing to compromise; however, obviously a DRN can be interrupted and then closed as this one was. Multiple simultaneous RFCs are allowed on a talk page, though they shouldn't overlap too much in terms of content. There's more but that should cover the main points raised. Read up on WP:RFC and WP:DRN if you still have concerns. Allreet (talk) 21:15, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No need for anyone to be reciting the rules for us. Speaking for myself, again, I wasn't contesting whether an RfC can be initiated while one is still in progress, only that the timing of such wasn't received as well as it may have otherwise, as many things were still unsettled in the first RfC when the second one was launched, which brought on a whole set of other contested issues. It doesn't surprise me that four voters in the first RfC, even after being pinged, haven't bothered to vote in the second. No one's fault of course, that's just the way things work sometimes. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"No need to cite rules" - then don't point fingers as if others had done something wrong. Allreet (talk) 14:07, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I had comments about the timing of a second RfC while the first one was still up in the air. That's a reasonable consideration - no need for the hostile tone. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:51, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In good faith, I cited the rules. You responded with sarcasm and then continued with allegations about "timing", including baseless speculation that somehow this discouraged editors from participating. My reply to your allegations was direct. I simply said "don't point fingers as if others had done something wrong". I'm not exactly sure how "tone" has anything to do with anything. Allreet (talk) 22:31, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rules were never contested in the first place. We don't need anyone to recite the alphabet for us. In good faith I submitted a comment about the timing of a second RfC while the first was in a belabored and ongoing ordeal. That is a reasonable concern, thank you. Any accusations of "sarcasm" seems like more of the same ol digressions that are typically resorted to when one lacks the capacity to deal with honest criticism. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 04:17, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aye aye aye. Maybe we should get that round of drinks (or something) now. See what comes from a combative section titling, seems Robert left this in a hurry (so maybe the section should be collapsed). Ok, carry on. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What is it with blame games? Move on to something productive. Allreet (talk) 16:19, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Allreet, yikes, my mistake, my "Aye aye aye" was meant as a saying and not as an affirmative "yes". Maybe an unfamiliar saying, so apologies if misunderstood. You two seem to be doing some venting that a very long-term discussion can bring out in editors, I vented quite a bit during our initial talks and some of the dispute res. Let's clean-slate all of this sometime soon, you've all done a great job on founders and founding pages and none of that could be tarnished by any of the main editors here. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In good faith, you submitted a concern. In good faith, I cited relevant rules, which have nothing to say about your complaint, "timing". My "digressions" as you call them are straightforward replies to your personal attacks. Your last sentence being a prime example. Allreet (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your last example of a "personal attack" was the accusation about sarcasm, and "baseless speculation". On top of that it was your lack of faith with the assumption that you needed to recite the rules for us, when none were broken or called into question. The concern was over the timing - a concern which you apparently don't share with us at all. Again, four editors haven't bothered with the second RfC, even after being pinged. That is not a personal attack, it's a reasonable concern, which, the last time I checked, we are allowed to express. I had similar feelings about not participating initially, as did Randy, as the first RfC was still all over the map. Not exactly "baseless", thank you. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At your suggestion to move on to something productive and Randy's suggestion to collapse the section, I have done so. Feel free to revert if you want this section back in everyone's face. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:04, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Personal Attacks

Apparently, @Gwillhickers failed to read the final words from the closers in the RFC above on signers of the Continental Association: In ongoing and future discussions, editors are reminded to maintain civility, to focus on content during content disputes, and to seek resolution of conduct disputes at appropriate venues. So while Gwillhickers believes he does not need to have the rules "recited" to him, I beg to differ and believe a remedial reminder of the opening paragraph of WP:No personal attacks is in order:

Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collaborative atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans.

A review of the "dialogue" in the current RFC shows a general if not complete disregard of this directive by the editor in question, who I have reminded repeatedly only to be subjected to additional abuse each time. Allreet (talk) 19:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In case it is not clear what the latest attack is, I quote, "Any accusations of 'sarcasm' seems like more of the same ol digressions that are typically resorted to when one lacks the capacity to deal with honest criticism". Allreet (talk) 19:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rules I was referring to concerned whether it was appropriate to open a second RfC while the first was in progress, which were never in question, it was about the practicality of the timing, which was pointed out for you twice. Now here you are reciting another set of rules. All over the map and can't take your own advice to move on. Your revert of the collapse box and your third person preaching about me is anything but civil and is consistent with many editors not bothering to sort through this nonsense which you seem bent on perpetuating. You speak of "personal attacks" all the while you accuse me of "sarcasm", "baseless accusations" and in the past have accused me of "Bludgeoning the RFC with irrelevancies and inaccuracies" to which you devoted an entire section with that exact phrase -- and now here you are again, with yet another such lengthy and belabored section. All you're doing is trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline, all because concerns about an RfC's timing were expressed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Our conversation isn't anything about article improvement, which is the purpose of this Talk page. If you still have a personal score to settle, please take it yours or my Talk page. I tried to get this mess tucked away in a collapsed box, but you prefer to shine spotlights on the matter. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Timing is a subjective but impersonal issue that can civilly be discussed and disagreed upon. Accusing someone of "lacking the capacity to deal with honest criticism" when they do disagree is personal. Accusing someone of "trying to extinguish a fire with gasoline" when a rule is cited is more of the same if not an evasion. As for "improvement", my concern is for the "next guy", whether in this page or another. Re-read the rule and let me know if you think adhering to it would improve things. See if you can respond without accusing me of something else. Allreet (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Timing is a subjective but impersonal issue that can civilly be discussed and disagreed upon." Discussing it civilly is what I initially tried to do, where I closed with, "No one's fault of course, that's just the way things work sometimes." Regardless, you followed with "then don't point fingers as if others had done something wrong." You followed again with accusations of "sarcasm" and "baseless speculation". That was a digression. I too stepped over the line with a comment about lacking the capacity, but that followed after repeated accusations and dodging the issue. Neither of us started this section with the very contentious subject heading, which was initiated some  ten days after  the first RfC had closed. My initial comments were critical about the timing of a second RfC and the likely result of four editors not bothering anymore, again, with a closing comment about that's the way things work sometimes. This is where you jumped in and accused me of pointing fingers, rather than acknowledging that point, as if expressing what I felt was a legitimate concern was somehow wrong, and from that point on things snowballed to where we are now. So let's keep the chronology straight. I did not initiate the accusations or the hostile tone here. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:59, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

C'mon you guys, call me a name so I can say it. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:46, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'm ready for a break. Think I'll go visit this page. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:55, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I entered this with an objective reading of the rules. You responded with derision. Nobody forced you to make a personal attack a couple posts later. Meanwhile, thanks to your diligence, the current RFC worked out to your liking...and mine as well. You should enjoy your beer, not fret for no reason. Allreet (talk) 04:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Checking to see if this section remains open, and good, so I can leave an essay I've just run across for the first time that should explain everything to everyone: Wikipedia:Assume the assumption of good faith. It's one fine essay, and maybe Robert can have it tattooed on his arm. My compliments to the chef. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:51, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request for closure

@Robert McClenon, sufficient time seems to have passed on the Articles of Confederation RFC, and little new has been added of late. I'm, therefore, requesting that the RFC be closed and that closers be "called in" to offer a ruling. Thank you. Allreet (talk) 17:23, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Allreet - I am a little puzzled. Are you aware that there is a specific period of time for RFCs to run? An RFC runs for 30 days, and this RFC was published about six weeks ago, and the bot deactivated it about two weeks ago. It is true that it is time to request closure, not because nothing has been added recently, but because there has been enough time. Do you mean that you want me to request formal closure? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I wasn't aware of any of that - the details that go along with wrapping up things. So in answer to your question, yes, a request for "formal closure". And thanks for shepherding this. Allreet (talk) 18:21, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What fun, my fellow Wikipedia's. Not sure where the vote is yet . . . but here goes so I can be on the mailing list for an up or down vote on the Articles.

RfC YES, keep the Articles of Confederation as an important “Founders document” included in this articled its images and charts; the scope of the article intends to present an overview of “revolutionary leaders” who established the United States of America, “during the later decades of the 18th century; the article as written does so.

1. The goal of the Foundation is to make reliable information, scholarly knowledge widely available in an online encyclopedia. I suggest our WP:CONSENSUS form around generally accepted American BIOGRAPHY.

So, for the article TIMELINE, consider the five greats of the American founders who are most often presented as Benjamin Franklin as the “first American genius” for his efforts towards colonial union, and the new regime’s first four US Presidents who were also major leaders in the Revolution: George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and James Madison. They were all significant as “signers” or attendees at document events.

If we begin in the Declaration of Independence in 1776 as the Founding of the US, and NOT John Adams' diary dating the 'real revolution in the minds of the American people' was completed by 1763 at the Peace of Paris ending the French and Indian War,

- and we extend the timeline only to include the Declaration signers who become US President, that would give us, say, a period of American history stretching over a quarter-century, 1774-1801.

2. I believe there is no better example of ARTICLE SUCCESS than the summary chart showing signers of the Declaration, Articles, and Constitution, and who signed what. It shows the outlines of ‘Founders’ intellectual AND political diversity. (a) That diversity can be better marked if those publicly objecting to the US Convention are designated with a red box "NO" under the US Constitution column. (b) The chart can further be improved by adding a column for Ratification Conventions YES and NO votes.

3. As two contributors to the RfC have mentioned, 'Founders' can also include Ratification Convention leaders as qualifying 'events'. For instance, in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, the NO-VOTE Anti-Federalists Patrick Henry, George Mason, and James Monroe sought to preserve the Articles, and opposed the ratifying majority YES VOTE led by James Madison, John Marshall and former Governor Edmund Randolph, who had switched sides since the Philadelphia Convention after some further exchanges with George Washington . . . TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 17:26, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from the survey section:

• Comment - User:Gwillhickers, User:Allreet, User:Randy Kryn - I didn't know we were still here. It appears that this thing needs closure. I thought that a few weeks ago I had asked if you wanted me to request closure, and that I didn't get an answer. I see a reference to something called a Request for closure, but is that also on this article talk page? Well, it is a good-faith error to think that you can request closure of an RFC in the RFC. You request closure of an RFC at Requests for Closure. Do you want me to request closure of this thing?: Robert McClenon (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Robert McClenon, Randy Kryn, Allreet, and TheVirginiaHistorian: — Robert, Sorry for not responding, but the Talk page here is something of a jungle and I missed it.
  Yes, its time for closure, as the voting came to a stop weeks ago with the exception of this latest vote from the TheVirginiaHistorian on July 4th. Currently we have 5 yes votes, and 5 no votes. Given the sources supporting the idea that the Articles of Confederation are indeed a founding document I'm hoping reason will prevail. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:35, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• After this RfC has evolved into a "grand" discussion and research project, I think a close could be done by Robert, who started the RfC. If a full formal close is required then that should go ahead as well (the same three closers as above or someone else?). Randy Kryn (talk) 19:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - User:Randy Kryn, User:Gwillhickers, User:Allreet - Here is what I think should be done at this point. As I tried to say, more than once, an RFC is not closed because the voting comes to a stop, but after 30 days. I can't close the RFC, because I voted in it. The proper closure at this point should be No Consensus. That doesn't prevent us from having a new RFC. If you want me to ask at Village Pump what the best way is to request a No Consensus closure, I can do that, or I can just request a closure at Requests for Closure and assume that the closer will say No Consensus, which allows another RFC. I stopped following this thing a few weeks ago also. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon and Randy Kryn:, et al. Robert -You may want to consider options two and/or six for RfC closure, and just be done with this, esp since the sources clearly support the A.O.C. as a founding document and a lengthy part of the founding process. After the clousure of this RfC, with its 'no consensus', taking this to the Village pump, where they likely are not familiar with the history, or opening another RfC, would just be another effort at rehashing all the things we've gone through for many weeks and likely would end in yet another 'no consensus'. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:12, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't seem a No consensus decision but a 'Yes' when taking all of the discussions into account (including the important comments and questions from Gwillhickers to most if not all of the 'No' rationales). "No consensus" would keep the status quo in place as much as a "Yes" decision, and then a new post no-consensus RfC on the same topic would just, as mentioned above, rehash the same points and provide the same adequate sources which those who have been following the discussions seem to already agree on. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn@Robert McClenon@Gwillhickers it seems to me that the effort to drop the AoC is one to smooth over fundamental disagreements among the "Founders, so as to quite 8th grader social studies researchers who may be reassured by charts of green-only YES votes.

- In the long view for this Wiki article, many of the still-active signers of the AoC become the AVOCATES of the Articles as floor leaders in the Ratification Conventions for adopting the Constitution, or subsequently Anti-Administration US Senators and Representatives.

- If we were to focus on "Founders" exclusively as leaders in the process of establishing the regime of the US Constitution as amended, the origin is the Declaration of Independence among nations by "one people", then a regime of "We the People" of consolidated national government that Patrick Henry so strenuously opposed.

- So, [1] Declaration Signers and not, with a note that Dickenson officered and campaigned with Washington's Continental Army,

- [2] Philadelphia Convention signers and not, with a note for Edmund Randolph et al as needed for those voting for Ratification in Virginia's "Federal" Convention.

- [3] Ratification Convention Chair and 4-5 floor leaders each, in Virginia, YES votes: James Madison, John Marshall, Edmund Randolph who did not sign at Philadelphia; NO votes: Patrick Henry, George Wythe.

- [4] US CONSTITUTION REGIME: First Congress listing House and Senate leaders, President & Vice President, First Supreme Court; the BILL OF RIGHTS are sent tot the states for ratification the day after the Congress passes the bill establishing the US Supreme Court.

=> FOUNDERS establishment of the United States regime under the US Constitution, as amended. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 23:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Middle school and high school textbooks are exactly the reliable sources that Wikipedia should be reporting on for this purpose, because the instruction of adolescents is precisely how a national mythology, in the sense of defining the shared ideas of a nation, is established."
There has been no "myth" advanced around here, but nevertheless, they are not necessarily started on the high school level and can be fostered by any historian or journalist. While a couple of the sources presented are aimed at young adults, we will need something more than that to dismiss them entirely. For the record, I've no intention of referring to them now to make any point, or in the article. Most of the sources presented were indeed written by scholars, including several historical journals, and I've just added others, so let's not focus on a couple of books written for young adults as a means of getting sidetracked on something that was never established in the first place. What "myth"? It is no myth that the Articles of Confederation was the first Constitution, with many of it's Articles and precepts found in the Constitution, and that its rigorous review, over an eight year period, is what paved the way for the new and stronger Constitution, and that all of those involved, i.e.the Continental Congress, delegates and leaders, are considered founders. It is no myth that the Articles of Confederation is directly related to the founding and establishment of the Constitution and was obviously written, adopted and critiqued by the founding fathers. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• "Many of the proposed powers of government set out in the Articles were to be repeated, some in haec verba, in the later Constitution."^[1]
• "The term “State,” however, was a term of art drawn from the law of nations. The Founders employed this term—as well as other key concepts drawn from such law—in drafting the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution."^[2]
• "The Founders were well versed in the law of nations, and prominent Founders understood these rules to govern the surrender of sovereign rights by the American “States” in both the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution."^[3]
• "Certain provisions of the Articles were either incorporated intact in the Constitution or established precedents expanded upon by the Convention. Many of the prohibitions on state action imposed by the Articles were retained in the Constitution."^[4]
• The Articles of Confederation and the Constitution of the United States of America are 'social contracts," documents that outline the relationship between the governments they establish and the people that establish them. Both are based on the classical liberal principles of government used by the American founders to justify the American Revolution and expressed in the Declaration of Independence.^[5]
• Ratified on May 1, 1781. the Articles of Confederation established a system of government that the American founders believed would avoid the problems faced by the colonies under British rule.^[6]
• "Congress was given broad powers, and the language of the Articles often foreshadows the language of the Constitution drafted by the Convention of 1787.^[7]
• "The efforts to create these documents of political foundation, whether the state constitutions, or the Articles of Confederation, or the Constitution of the United States, often divided Americans.^[8]
• "Articles of Confederation, first U.S. constitution (1781–89), which served as a bridgee between the initial government by the Continental Congress of the Revolutionary period and the federal government provided under the U.S. Constitution of 1787.^[9]
• "Most scholars identify as founding fathers the politicians during the American Revolution, the Confederation period, and the early Republic."^[10]
• "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[11]
• "The drafters of the Articles of Confederation doubtless anticipated forming an adequate national government".^[12]
• "The Articles of Confederation were adopted by the Continental Congress on November 15, 1777. This document served as the United States' first constitution.^[13]
• "The Articles functioned as the first national constitution of the United States and, as such, reflected American political theory as it emerged during the Revolution. Equally important, a textual analysis reveals the extent to which the 1787 Constitution was a logical extension of the Articles of Confederation."^[14]

• "Indeed, there is a conceptual sense in which our very identification of the Founding as a Founding presupposes that the Philadelphia Convention acted without legal warrant under the preexisting Articles. If this were not the case, the real Founders of our Republic were the folks who wrote and ratified the Articles of Confederation; the Philadelphia Convention simply gained the ratification of some sweeping "amendments" to the Founding document."^[15]

-- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Following are reliable sources that identify founding fathers based on the documents they signed.

Declaration of Independence: Signers

• Bernstein, R.B., The Founding Fathers Reconsidered (2009), Appendix: The Founding Fathers: A Partial List, pp. 177-178
• Brown, Richard D., "The Founding Fathers of 1776 and 1787: A Collective View", William and Mary Quarterly (1976), p. 465
• Declaration Resources Project, Harvard University, "Unsullied by Falsehood: The Signing" (July 27, 2016)
• Ellis, Joseph, "United States History: Founding Fathers", Encyclopedia Britannica
• National Archives, Signers of the Declaration

U.S. Constitution: Delegates (Framers & Signers)

• Bernstein, R.B., The Founding Fathers Reconsidered (2009), Appendix: The Founding Fathers: A Partial List, pp. 178-179
• Brown, Richard D., "The Founding Fathers of 1776 and 1787: A Collective View", William and Mary Quarterly (1976), p. 465
• Declaration Resources Project, Harvard University, "December Highlight: Founding Fathers?"] (December 4, 2016)
• Ellis, Joseph, "United States History: Founding Fathers", Encyclopedia Britannica
• National Archives, Meet the Framers of the Constitution
• National Constitution Center, Founding Fathers

Articles of Confederation: Signers

• Padover, Saul K., "The World of the Founding Fathers" (1958), Social Research, vol. 25, no. 2, The New School, pp. 191–214

Allreet (talk) 06:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Allreet: Anyone can list a bunch of sources with the assumption that they're supporting your POV on matters. Without quotes, names and page numbers, they amount to very little in that regard. I'm presently going through these sources, and have already come up with statements that cover the idea that the AOC was founded with the express idea of winning American independence and providing a document that united the colonies under one government, which fed right into the Constitution. To claim this wasn't a founding document ignores major episodes in early American history. For example, I just added a couple of statements from Berstein, 2009, which you provided, to the list of statement/sources above. I'm sure we can find more from the sources you've provided.-- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The above sources fairly and accurately support/represent my POV. I've provided links to all of them except Bernstein, which you happen to have. I have provided page numbers for the papers from JSTOR and Bernstein's book. All of my sources specifically identify the signers/framers of the Declaration and Constitution. You may challenge any of that if you wish. Allreet (talk) 00:27, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• From another source you've provided: Padover, 1958
  "There were three major spheres of action in which the Founding Fathers participated. First, there was the American Revolution and the events preceding and following it. This involved participation in the Continental Congresses, which, particularly the Articles of Confederation, waged the War of the Revolution and gave the thirteen colonies the only cohesion they had at the time. This phase began in 1774..."^[1] -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Of course. I specifically indicated Padover identifies signers of the Articles as founders. Re-read my intro. Then re-read the list and its headers. And then if you'd like to point out anything I missed, feel free. Allreet (talk) 00:31, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have examined the two new sources submitted by @Gwillhickers - Altman, Pennsylvania Legacies, 2003, and Bellia & Clark, Columbia Law Review, 2020 - and believe they satisfy "the gold standard" in terms of verification. I'll also generally accept @Robert McClenon's points about the "juvenile" works but with the objections that I mentioned, so I hope these texts will not be used as sources in our articles.

I believe that with Altman, Bellia & Clark, and Padover we now have the multiple sources and levels of clarity, directness, and "authority" required for recognizing signers of the Articles of Confederation as founders/founding fathers. I also commend Gwillhickers for his diligence in digging up the two new sources. Accordingly, I plan to change my No vote as well as my explanation. I will caution that this is not to accept any of the "indirect" arguments about the significance of the Articles, which solid or not have absolutely nothing to do with recognizing or identifying founders.

IMO, we should keep the RFC open and allow the closers to review the issues and provide us with their judgement. First of all, my change in vote does not outweigh the input of others. Secondly, I believe the closers' direction should prove helpful both on main issues and secondary ones. I'll apologize, though, in advance for belaboring the related arguments and with that, creating a labyrinth of words that may make their review more painful than necessary. Allreet (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you weren't kidding about the big surprise. Didn't expect this. Let me just say though that it wasn't just the new sources that established the founder's role in the A.O.C.. In any case, I fear that the closers will still base their decision on the number of votes, and in that event, we will have to eliminate names of those who only signed the A.O.C., regardless that they were in the middle of the founding process and the transition from the A.O.C. to the improved Constitution. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:31, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The closers, as they indicated in the last RFC, will take the vote into account, but they specifically indicated that it's not all about voting. I also doubt you have anything to fear regarding the overall outcome, though some other points may annoy you. Your last sentence, for example, shows your continued misunderstanding of Original Research. That may be one of the points you won't be pleased with, though I have no way of knowing. Allreet (talk) 01:49, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet and Randy Kryn: — Recently added was a source and statement by Bruce Ackerman, a Constitutional law scholar and Sterling Professor at Yale Law School. Probably among the most reliable sources. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet:  Since I've never advanced anything extraordinary, unlikely or unusual, and don't plan on doing so in the article, I'll have to respectfully disagree, as I've always stayed within the realm to which the sources support. By O.R. I'm assuming you're referring to this sentence:  "that they were in the middle of the founding process and the transition from the A.O.C. to the improved Constitution. ".  The only thing I can see that might take on a hint of O.R. is the idea that the men in question were "in the middle of the founding process". Perhaps that would be an overstatement regarding some individuals, and the article won't be saying this, but let's not assume that these delegates just sat on their hands the entire time and just signed a document with no input from the state they were representing. If we were going to communicate this idea in the article on behalf of a given delegate, which we're not, we would say he was involved, rather than, "in the middle of", unless of course the sources gave us something more. As representative delegates I'm sure they made their voices heard and were quite involved, which would be nothing unusual. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:56, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other issues

User:Allreet wrote: we should keep the RFC open. Duh. Who said anything else? It has only been running for two weeks. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:05, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the duh Allreet (talk) 01:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We should always ask ourselves if we would address each other in the way we all do, sometimes, if we were sitting at the same table, looking into one another's eyes, hearing actual voices. I'm certainly no Saint in that regard, but when we're sitting alone, I'm assuming, staring into the bright light of the monitor, where peripheral elements don't factor in much, we can easily assume the worst from what little we read here in Talk. At times I thought a couple of editors were the Talk page trolls from hell, but that would be my perception. Yeah, our patience can be worn down at times, but the few people still chiming in here have gone the distance and give a damn enough about what readers are reading, mostly college students and history buffs, when it comes to history, and hopefully we can hack out an article that doesn't leave gaping holes in the historical account, and one we can all live with. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 03:06, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• @Allreet:, Again, I'm completely surprised with your coming around, and now with changing your vote. At the risk of sounding patronizing, that must have taken some courage, and much integrity. Just so there's no confusion, you might want to affix your 'John Hancock' at the end of your vote/message, i.e. following "Thanks to all". Please accept my humble apologies for my lack of faith. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:34, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Thanks for the compliment as well as the tip on signing my vote. Apologies accepted. Allreet (talk) 14:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As for compliments, Gwillhickers has done a fantastic job of documentation. And of course I credit and compliment Allreet for holding our feet to the fire from day one as well as for his great documentation and focus on detail. Tons of good edits have been accomplished by participants of these discussion, all throughout founding and founders pages. The resulting accumulating research and analysis on these topics, especially during the lead-up to their 250th anniversary, will hopefully give some "real" historians who hear of this discussion (and praise be to Richard Werther, who as an amateur historian should be given much of the credit when the signers of the Continental Association are "officially" recognized as Founding Fathers) the idea to research and publish the articles which will add back to Wikipedia the fact that the signers of the first of the four great US founding documents (which, as RJensen pointed out, created a movement) qualify as appropriately recognized Founding Fathers. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(also discussed at Talk:Henry Wisner#Non-signing voter and author founders?)

Should we add Henry Wisner, who voted to adopt the Declaration of Independence, and Oliver Ellsworth and Edmund Randolph who played major roles in the writing of the Constitution and then served on the five-man Committee of Detail which drafted it, to the list (in Wisner's case leave him on the list)? Randolph didn't sign the Constitution because he objected to some portions, but quickly changed his mind and helped ratify it, and Ellsworth left the Convention before the Constitution, which he had helped both frame and draft, was signed. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Declaration of Independence?  Constitution?  Perhaps a question more to the point would be: Why  aren't  these men listed, given their involvements? If there are reliable sources that cover this you don't need a consensus to add them to the article. If the edit is challenged, then a consensus would be called for. Having said that, since the article has been contested in several areas, I can appreciate your moving slowly and calling for other opinion, though again, this is not required to make well sourced edits initially. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:59, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The answer is no different from the one sought in recognizing signers of the AOC: If reliable sources recognize individuals as founders, they should be listed. If historians happened to overlook them, we can't correct their omissions, regardless of what somebody did. BTW, Ellsworth and Randolph may qualify since some sources recognize Constitutional Convention delegates whether they signed or not (e.g., National Archives and Bernstein). Allreet (talk) 22:56, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. And should add John Rogers (Continental Congress) into the mix as well (same situation as Wisner) and point out that Robert R. Livingston is on the FF list, probably for serving on the Committee of Five which drafted the Declaration, but left Philadelphia (before the vote or before its signing?). By the way, Rogers' page says he was the only one to vote for the Declaration and not sign it while Wisner's page says he voted for it as well, so one of them is incorrect, probably Rogers', Wisner seems to have the stronger sources. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:13, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Signing of the United States Declaration of Independence says eight delegates "out of about 50" who were "thought to have been present" for the voting did not sign. The count of signers is 39, so something's amiss there. I do know a couple who refused to sign were Quakers; as pacifists, they couldn't sign because independence meant war. Most of this, though, should be fairly easy to track down and document. The actual signing date, however, remains controversial, as the WP article indicates. I caution, however, regarding FFF - Founding Father Fever. Let's let sources lead the way, not our enthusiasm. Allreet (talk) 02:35, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a good time to get these outliers straightened out, when quite a few editors have some attention on the page. No hurry though (FFF, good one!). Some pings could help to get others opinions at some point. 56 men officially signed the declaration, but only "about 50" voted including those eight? Will read more, thanks for good comments. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:52, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct...56 not 39. In haste I missed the third column, though by now I should know the number (39 is signers of the Constitution). The "about 50" is the oddity given the article's list. Going beyond 56 to include those who didn't sign is problematic since all major sources seem to limit it to that. There's also an aspect of signing that our FF article doesn't currently address but should. "Signers" were referred to by that title during their lifetimes, with great reverence. I haven't looked into its "evolution", but I have come across the term in passing over the years. Something similar is true of the term "forefathers". Initially, it referred to the Pilgrims at Plymouth and the settlers at Jamestown, so it's not synonymous with founding father, but still deserves mention, if for no other reason than to make the distinction. Allreet (talk) 15:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edits to the "Founding Fathers List" section have not helped clarify the issue of who is considered a founder and who isn't. Given the outcome of the recent RFC on the Continental Association, the Association's signers are not regarded as founders, and therefore, they are irrelevant in terms of the subject of the Founding Fathers article.

The closest the section's new text comes to justifying the Association's continued inclusion in the Founding Fathers article is that "records of their signatures are recorded here for context". I can't imagine what that context might be; for example, how does a comparison of non-founders with widely recognized founders help anyone's understanding of the subject?

I also believe sources are being misused to justify the Association's relevance, in particular, the Library of Congress, which recognizes the Association as one of 277 primary documents. This amounts to "sleight of hand"; that is, the general classificiation of "primary document" (which applies to 276 other documents) is being used to skirt what was discussed by the closers of the RFC regarding the fact that the Continental Association is not a "founding document".

Accordingly, I have replaced the text with a basic lead-in to the table of signers who are considered founders. I have also removed signers of the Continental Association from the table since it's misleading to continue to list their names. Similarly, I have removed the names of several individuals from the list who didn't sign any documents. I fully expect other text will be added, but at this point, the section is an incoherent succession of statements; for example, the misleading material about the Continental Association and the analysis of "145 signers", many of whom are not considered founders. Allreet (talk) 06:11, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have also restored the List section toward the top: 1) identifying the bulk of founders is of high importance, and 2) much of the subsequent discussion refers to many of these individuals. It's odd to provide the list after these various references. Allreet (talk) 06:22, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've removed Patrick Henry, John Jay, and Peyton Randolph as Founders in the list and erased the Continental Association as one of the four major founding documents. None of this had been decided by the RfC, which had nothing to do with the CA's role as a major founding document. Appreciate your list of 'other' signers, and that should be added back in some form, possibly adding Henry, Jay, and Randolph if the CA's other signers are removed from what has until now been a comprehensive list of signers of the four major founding papers. Randy Kryn (talk) 07:23, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn: The Continental Association is not one of "four major founding documents". The individuals you mentioned can be recognized based on other accomplishments. I am restoring my edits and will be seeking administrative assistance should you persist on ignoring the results of the recent RFC. Allreet (talk) 12:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly we may need administration review at some point. Allreet, you have inexplicably removed John Jay, Patrick Henry, and Peyton Randolph from Founder status on our "official" Founders list and removed all mention of the four founding documents and the Continental Association. All of this is unacceptable and uncalled for anywhere. You seem to be basing these extreme edits on somehow believing that the closers comments on an RfC removed (or even could remove) founding document status from the Continental Association - a clear misreading and reading comprehension failure of the close. Please stop making vast changes because now we need some vast reverts (you made one good edit, catching an incorrect date for the Articles of Confederation going into effect, something I actually caught at another article a few days ago). Recent prolific page editors Gwillhickers and Minard38, what should we do about this surge of ownership attitude from Allreet, both initially (I'd revert again now but he'd probably just revert like an edit warrior and we'd be in this exact same place) and longer term. Maybe a way to solve this would be to have a separate page for America's great founding documents, which might work well and put some good focus on the four major documents as well as a few others. Allreet, would that be something you'd support? At the very least, when the dust clears, John Jay, Patrick Henry, and Peyton Randolph, and likely others such as Henry Wisner majorly involved with the Declaration, need to be added back to the list in some form, maybe a new section just above or edited within the new and productive founder's section that Allreet has provided. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:36, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Randy Kryn. These massive changes, even to the extent where Patrick Henry, John Jay and Peyton Randolph have been removed, are highly questionable. Some founders took no part in the signing of any document but played founding roles nonetheless. Peyton Randolph, for example, was the president of Virginia Conventions, and the first and third president of the Continental Congress, all central to the Articles of Confederation. How he is not considered a founding father?
The C.A. RfC, did not clearly say that the list be edited to exclude CA signers and only mentioned a "rough consensus". Let's be reminded that some sources consider the Continental Association as a founding document, and explain why, as it was authored by the Continental Congress and united the colonies against British imports and exports, and sent representatives to the colonies to implement its enforcement. This was the first form of independent colonial representative government in America, an idea that did not go away, and which led directly to war. i.e.A compelling argument to say the least. Otoh, arguments for exclusion are only based on the idea that many of the sources simply do not mention the Continental Association, while not one of them actually explain why the C.A. was not a founding document, which is essentially what all the No votes are based on. i.e.All we have is the citing of sources that simply do not mention the C.A.. That's a rather weak basis for exclusion of C.A. signers. We need clarification on that point, and we should summon the closers, to make clear what the article should include in the chart/list. Meanwhile, let the article ride, per Allreet's last edits, so as to avoid an edit war. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:27, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gwillhickers and @Randy Kryn: The ruling of the recent RFC clearly determined that the signers of the Continental Association are not founders. What, then, is the rationale for listing this group of non-founders in an article on Founding Fathers? I believe the attempt that was made was an end-run to ignore the RFC's ruling. As for the argument Gwillhickers raises, it's the same one that failed in the RFC. But if you want to run it by the closers again, be my guest. Allreet (talk) 23:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You claim that the closers decreed that the Continental Association is not one of the great founding documents when they did no such thing. To remove any mention of the CA from this page, as you have done, and to remove John Jay (? nonsense, why would you do that, he's one of the "Morris Seven" featured in the lead and qualifies from The Federalist Papers alone, not to mention the 1781 Paris Treaty which is pictured in the lead), Patrick Henry, and Peyton Randolph from a list of recognized Founding Fathers alludes to a bit of ignorance of who or who isn't considered a founder. Have added back at least mention of the Continental Association as one of four major founding documents, per WP:DUE and WP:NPOV, and now I'm more inclined to start up the America's great founding documents page which I've had in mind for awhile. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:37, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Randy Kryn: And I reverted the change. Two of the sources - National Archives and Lincoln - do not regard the Continental Association as founding documents. The Sherman cite is not enough to justify this, plus it's irrelevant regarding the article and the section. If you restore it, I will be filing an ANI. Allreet (talk) 02:12, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gwillhickers, don't want you to miss this. Allreet, I'm debating to hold off my comments to boomerang you (I've never been taken to ANI before, and as I said on my talk page only yesterday, I've been practicing on my local boomerang field), so yes, I've reverted your with an adequate explanation in the edit summary. I'll link that here at some point. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:03, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. actually now looking forward to your ANI. I've never been pinged to go there before, except yesterday (check my talk page, you may want to read up on the interesting going-ons over at the United States page) and that one isn't about me, somebody just mentioned me so I guess you have to "summon" editors when their names are used. I'll be summoning quite a few. Do we meet before an ANI and shake hands, like gentlemen or people checking for brass knuckles, or do we come out roaring like demolition derbyists? I have no idea, not knowing the rules. It may be fun. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:39, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since Jay is already listed via Morris, what's the complaint? We should recognize him again as a signer of the Continental Association? The context is the problem with keeping the CA's signers in a list with signers who are considered founders. As for Patrick Henry, he easily qualified so I added him to the list of others. Peyton Randolph is a bit more problematic since he died before more momentous events took place, but still if he's a deserving candidate, finding sources shouldn't be too taxing.

As for your idea, hey, I have no problem with a "great founding documents" article, though I think you're going to be either "pumping air" into the subject or biting off more than you can chew, since there are dozens of significant documents to sort through and then a huge body of sources to navigate. Allreet (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The page has a list of Founding Fathers, so all Founders should be on that list. Jay, Henry, and Randolph, are not presently listed. That is, in your wording, "my complaint". Randy Kryn (talk) 00:38, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. A "bit of ignorance"? Nice. What I did was remove an irrelevant listing of dozens of non-founders that was intended to give impressions that the RFC most definitely ruled against. Allreet (talk) 00:15, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet and Randy Kryn: - Allreet, the RfC acknowledged arguments on both sides of the fence, a "rough consensus", and did not say anything about determining who was actually a founder or not. They did not make that determination, only the nay votes have, and again, all based merely on what some of the sources didn't say. By rigidly following that shallow methodology you have removed Patrick Henry, of all people, John Jay, the first Chief Justice, a member of the 1st and 2nd Continental Congress where he served as the latter's president, and Peyton Randolph, the 1st and 3rd president of the Continental Congress. Clearly we can not discount someone as a founder simply on the basis of what documents they did not sign. This is exactly what has happened here. With all due respect to Robert's good faith attempt to resolve an issue, the wording of that RfC had very little basis, where the no votes had to resort to O.R., i.e.simply on the basis of what some of the sources didn't say, while ignoring the other sources, and all the history surrounding the individuals in question. When the current RfC (over the Articles of Confederation) closes, I strongly recommend a second RfC over this issue, and not simply based on what documents these men didn't sign, or on what some sources don't mention. It should be based on the history and what the reliable sources actually do say. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 00:19, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is going to stop you from finding sources and adding Peyton Randolph as a founding father in another section. He was removed from this section because the signers of the Continental Association are not regarded as founders. Jay is already acknowledged in the lead, and I added Patrick Henry in the "Others" section, though I didn't have to. Allreet (talk) 02:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you need to re-read the closers' statement, starting with what's bolded, which is their ruling. The same ruling, with additional detail, appears near the end of their statement. So your "read" of this is that signers of the Continental Association can still be listed as founders? Allreet (talk) 02:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Gwillhickers: No response? I find it helps to improve things and move ahead if I "fess up" when I have things not quite right. No harm, lots of benefits. So, in this case, are we going to mutually acknowledge what the closers said or should we drag this out for no particular reason? Maybe I have it wrong, and if so, I'd like to know how or in what way. Allreet (talk) 18:55, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What? No. Not all of them, only the ones recognized as founders from other deeds (Jay, Henry, and P. Randolph, who have been sourced, they need to fit into the 'Founding Fathers' section somewhere, probably in a sub-section like you made for the non-signing Constitution founders). Those in the "Others" section are not considered founders but are other patriots who added greatly to the cause. You stuck Founding Father Patrick Henry in there. I've totally abided by the ruling of the RfC closers and actually was the editor who finally removed the Continental Association from the lead, changed the language of the list section, and went around and removed Founding Father status from 20-something individual pages. Where did you get any of this?(never mind, the reading comprehension thing). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:08, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "Others" section is actually a mixed bag of founders and "patriots" - meaning not quite founders but as the intro says, they "advanced the new nation". The founders listed include Egbert Benson, George Clinton, Patrick Henry and James Monroe. I just removed a few founders who are now listed as framers but not signers of the Constitution (Davie, Ellsworth, Mason). All the other founders should be moved to the list section for the start of an "Additional founders" list. I'll get that started now, and I'll add Jay, Randolph and maybe some others. Feel free to add as well, though "we" should have a conversation about sourcing sometime soon. Allreet (talk) 05:14, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I added a sub-section of "others". I believe these should be "one-liners" as they were in the "other patriots" list. The point is, their significance should briefly be mentioned (as is true for the "groupings" lists). If I copy over/edit these, I can retain the citations. For "new" listings, I'll try to track down sources as time allows; nobody should be included in any list without a citation. I've also added states to the "delegates" list to further identify these individuals for readers (their names alone have little meaning). Other suggestions/ideas welcomed. Allreet (talk) 16:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Allreet — The added sections and inclusion of Patrick Henry, Peyton Randolph and John Jay, are a step in the right direction. However, even though the poorly worded RfC for the Continental Association had a "rough consensus", it still must be observed that the only basis for that consensus was over the idea that some sources fail to mention it. That is what the "rough consensus" is based on. Other sources, including Ammerman, 1974, pp. 83-84, Phillips, 2012, p. 269, George Washington's Mount Vernon: First Continental Congress, and Werther's peer reviewed essay, clearly recognize it as an important founding document, as it was the first form of independent representative government in the colonies. There was not one source presented that would undermine or refute that idea. Again, concluding that the C.A. is not a founding document merely based on what some sources don't say, while ignoring the other sources, is O.R. -- That's what you need to "fess up" to. When the current RfC over the Articles of Confederation closes, a properly worded RfC for the Continental Association needs to be initiated again, and not simply on the basis of what the sources don't say, or over what documents weren't signed. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not re-debating a closed RFC, other than to say it was about the status of signers, not the importance of the Continental Association. As for the RFC, tell @Robert McClenon his wasn't worded properly. Allreet (talk) 16:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Allreet, Robert McClenon, and Randy Kryn: —— Allreet, the "status" of the signers is based on the importance of the Continental Association, the first time the colonies came together under a representative government independent of British authority, an idea that led to war, and an idea (independent representative government) which was replicated and expanded on in the Articles of Confederation and ultimately the Constitution. i.e.Representative Government began with the Continental Congress and its Articles of Association which put that idea into actual motion. Sources say it was an important founding document. None have been provided that even suggests otherwise. All that was done in an attempt to refute that idea was the referral to some sources that simply didn't mention the Continental Association, while the other sources were ignored. Imo, the RfC over the Continental Association was decided on the basis of O.R.  A conclusion was asserted in this article that was not explicitly substantiated by the sources. Not even close. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:04, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You do not understand OR. Your first sentence is OR, as is the rest. Not one of your statements even mentions founders, nor do any of the sources you refer to. They could all say the CA was the most important document ever written, but that in itself would not support this statement: "its signers are considered founders". The document is considered important, but that says nothing about those who signed it. You're violating this provision of WP:NOR: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source". Allreet (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Continental Association was just that - the Continental Congress formed an "association" of the colonies to act as one, and then decreed and ordered a boycott of the goods of its ruling nation. That was an act of independence, an act of war and, as Lincoln said, it formed the Union and, as Rjensen said, it created a movement. I have no doubt the CA's signers will be deemed Founding Fathers by a number of historians at some point before its 250th anniversary (RJensen, sooner than later? Please get out your pen and do it yourself, or contact the current crop of historians you know and ask them to look into this, I can contact one who may be able to take it on or pass it on. Related: who is the leading expert on the Continental Association - is it an individual known for that fact (or is it maybe fast becoming a group of Wikipedia editors)? Is there an individual determinative book on the Association (or any book)? This forgotten great founding document may just now be coming into its own. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This was not the first. The Stamp Act Congress preceded it, with nine colonies represented. The First Continental Congress garnered the participation of 12 colonies, still one short of unanimity. That said, the Congress itself was far more important than the documents it created, since none had a lasting effect. Far more important was their decision to meet six months later. That "movement" was the one that made all the differences. As for scholars catching up with your view of history, given the attention all these events have garnered, the likelihood isn't even slim. Allreet (talk) 20:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The First Continental Congress was the first colonist organization to have such a major impact - the Continental Association. The act of ordering the colonists to boycott British goods, and tens of thousands of them acting in unison on this (as Richard Jensen said, creating a movement), it formed the Union (per Abraham Lincoln). One or several major historians calling the signers of the CA Founding Fathers is likely 100% assured once some of them understand exactly what occurred and what the resulting unfolding events owed to this decree and movement. Abraham Lincoln called the Declaration the maturing of the union, preceded by its actual formation, the CA. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Most of which is your opinion, but it's not the "prevailing" opinion of historians and not even a minority view. What assured the union, despite what you believe, was the dumping of tea in the harbor, and then the reaction of the British. With or without the CA, all three would have occurred, the third event being the union. However, you nicely admit there are no major historians that share your POV. Given that this is Wikipedia and sources are paramount, what are we talking about? Something that may or may not be recognized down the road? Allreet (talk) 21:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]