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Sorry to say that, but to say that he was a ‚devout‘ Buddhist might sound fluffy and cuddly in a Western perspective, but he was a member of Kokuchūkai which should be mentioned. He was no registered member of any traditional Buddhist temple, even within Nichiren Buddhism. Him being a member of Kokuchūkai is part of his biography to call him therefore a devout Buddhist is itself farfetched. --Catflap08 (talk) 22:00, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what fluffiness has to do with it. His connections to Kokuchūkai are dealt with after the lede; unless you are going to explain in the lede what Kokuchūkai is, that would make the lede opaque to most readers. "The poet Miyazawa Kenji (1896-1933) was an early twentieth-century Japanese modernist who today is known worldwide for his poetry and stories as well as his devotion to Buddhism", "the renowned Buddhist author, Miyazawa Kenji", "Among the possible interpretations of Ginga tetsudō no yoru, one must consider that it is an expression of the author’s Nichiren Buddhist beliefs, which he long held and explicitly articulated elsewhere in other works and correspondence. Reframing both the scholarship on Kenji’s ties to the prominent prewar Nichiren organization, the Kokuchūkai, and the research on Kenji’s close friendship with Hosaka Kanai, I demonstrate how the salvation that the protagonist Giovanni finds in the story is shaped by the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism.", "Poet and Buddhist agro-revolutionary, a devout Buddhist", "This and his strong Buddhist faith drove Kenji to spend most of his brief life in a passionate struggle to improve the lot of the poor farmers there". This is from a few minutes on just English-language sites. Dekimasuよ! 06:16, 24 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The term ‘Kokuchūkai’ has an interwiki link. The average reader should be allowed the intelligence to press that link and find out what Kokuchūkai is all about. Traditionally in Japan one would be expected to be registered with a temple when called a Buddhist. Kokuchūkai is a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda - why is that a problem to mention?--Catflap08 (talk) 17:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hijiri88 Why should it be poking to mention in the introduction a fact that the main text elaborates on? I find your edit itself to be POV as it seems you do not like that fact to be mentioned. He is no more mentioned as a Nationalist but member of Kokuchūkai. Seems like whitewashing his biography.--Catflap08 (talk) 10:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

<EDIT CONFLICT> Because the sources that merely summarize the facts briefly (as our lead should) and even many that go into further detail don't even mention the organization. They simply refer to him as a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism. You removed all reference in the Kokuchūkai article to the balance problems in that article, then wikilinked to it in the lead of this article. Your comments immediately above this one make it clear that that was your intent, and they also make clear why. You want this article to come as close as possible to saying "he was a nationalist" as it can. You have been engaged in a slow motion edit war on this topic for more than a year, and you have come up against unanimous opposition in this edit war from at least nine other users (possibly more including one user who commented on the inappropriateness of your behaviour without remark on the content and another whose view on the content was ambivalent). This type of disruptive, IDHT behaviour has gotten other users TBANned/blocked. You clearly are not interested in the topic of Miyazawa Kenji -- if you were, you would have read one of the hundreds of sources that refer to him as a devout Buddhist without any reference to nationalism, sometimes without even naming the Kokuchūkai -- so why not just move on to something else? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Even in the foreword to „The dragon and the Poet“ his Kokuchūkai‎ membership is mentioned. Its not my fault that Kokuchūkai‎ is what it is.--Catflap08 (talk) 12:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Which translation? And why not read a biography of the man, or his entry in one of the histories of Japanese literature, or some such? Anyway, don't close a comment addressed to another user with a question and then some time later tag more commentary on to it. I was already done answering your question (beginning with "Because") before you wrote the above. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:33, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can not see what you are doing at the same time as I do. Here you go

https://books.google.de/books?id=4JUBAwAAQBAJ&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&source=bl&ots=0hBZQnOqLS&sig=DKHL5IQrEkGmUxPCyOekxtC0PNA&hl=de&sa=X&ei=rgHvVMq2IJDhaMzZgOgI&ved=0CFEQ6AEwCjgK#v=onepage&q=Kokuch%C5%ABkai%E2%80%8E&f=false

--Catflap08 (talk) 12:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see the reference to Kokuchūkai, but it's a translation of a children's book and from the cover/title it appears to be itself aimed at children. Is it in a biography of the man? Anyway, even the best single source is still just a single source. You were met with comprehensive analyses of how Kenji is discussed in hundreds of sources in his own language -- the language of 99% of Kenji scholarship -- and failed to respond. You waited for me to drift away to other concerns and then dropped in to reinsert the same questionable material you were already told numerous times not to. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:10, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My most recent edit summary is another piece worth noting, but here's some more:

1. When we search the websites of Japanese universities for the name "Miyazawa Kenji" (in its most common orthography for simplicity) we get 23,200 hits.
2. When we take away all references to "Kokuchū" (by any orthography; -kai can also be spelled a few ways, but isn't important) we get 23,100 hits.
3. Okay, fine. Maybe the majority of those are merely library listings of book titles, so of course they don't connect the man with the group. So how about this. When we change "Miyazawa Kenji" to "Miyazawa Kenji wa" (which tends to appear at the start of sentences, so likely not too many library listings of book titles) and add the names of two of his most well-known works, "Ginga Tetsudō no Yoru" and "Haru to Shura" so as to guarantee no library listings of any one of his works, we get 56 hits.
4. When we take away any any reference to "Kokuchū" (see above for rationale) we get 43 hits.

So yes, clearly a decent proportion of sources do mention the Kokuchūkai in relation to him -- but not enough to justify the emphasis you are trying to give it.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:46, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I have no idea what you are on about. In the source, a forward to one of his works a short bio is included. Months ago somebody argued the nationalistic case – point taken. He was a member of Kokuchokai end of story, that’s what his faith was built on and Kokuchokai was what it then was. Since you go on about it in two articles you seem to have a problem with Kokuchokai. --Catflap08 (talk) 13:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great. And once someone rewrites the Kokuchūkai article to put less undue weight on the group's nationalism -- a nationalism no one except a lone Wikipedia editor seems to think Kenji shared -- then maybe wikilinking the group's article in the lead will be appropriate. You don't know what I'm on about for the same reason you appear to now think it's spelled "Kokuchokai" -- you don't read Japanese and you are (at best) clumsy with sources in languages you do speak. You clearly have no interest in this topic and have no intention of improving this article. You are here solely to push a fringe POV. You have been violating consensus and behaving disruptively on this article for over a year now. If you try to violate consensus by pushing this POV in the article again, I will request for you to be TBANned. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Kokuchūkai‎ is written based on sources available and if you call me clumsy call all authors on the issue clumsy too. As far as I know “Kai” means society. It is not my fault that the guy was in this organisation. I think you may be pushing things rewriting articles in order to fit your view of the world thereby ignoring what sources have to say about the issue. --Catflap08 (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and you know nothing else about the man, it seems. In your brief examinations of a limited number of sources of Nichiren groups you came across the name Miyazawa Kenji, and so you came on Wikipedia, looked up the name and rewrote the article to include every few paragraphs the unattested claim that he was a nationalist. You have been fighting for the last year to keep the article this way, against unanimous opposition. Your claims that "his faith was based on the Kokuchūkai‎" are wrong -- even the group itself says his faith was based on his reading of the Lotus Sutra. STOP TRYING TO REWRITE THIS ARTICLE'S LEAD TO FIT YOUR OWN POV NOW OR YOU WILL BE TAKEN TO ANI. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:12, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, this wasn't me. Nor was [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenji_Miyazawa&diff=603518401&oldid=602008035 the first user to revert you. So that's two more users who oppose you on this issue. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are contradicting yourself. In the lede the Nationalist issues was gone since June 2014. I inserted the fact that he was a member of Kokuchokai, a fact nobody denies. Now you say he was a Nichiren Buddhist. Nichiren Buddhism is not a sect or school. So in effect you do not want to see that a reference is made to the fact that the guy was a member of Kokuchokai – right? As this would specify to which branch of Nichiren Buddhism he belonged – and by all means a controversial branch. So to sum this issue up you want referenced information not be on display – right? --Catflap08 (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If "he was a member of Kokuchukai" is not related to "he was a nationalist", then why did you make this connection yourself last year? You are trying to unbalance this article in favour of your own POV, as you have been stubbornly doing for over a year. Your latest attempt to sneak "Kokuchukai" into the article via an otherwise unnecessary link to a Google Books search for the word is yet another example of this disruptive behaviour. It has already been explained to you by a dozen other users why your edits here are inappropriate, but you appear either unable or unwilling to listen. This is beginning to drain on my patience. If you waste any more of my time on this petty bickering, I will request that you be topic-banned or blocked. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Uninvolved I removed this from the third opinion noticeboard (as well as this related discussion) because each are disputes between more than two editors. I personally have no opinion on the subject, but I would advise all parties to read WP:FORUMSHOP. Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 04:32, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hijiri 88 You seem to get the line of events confused. I did indeed insert the nationalist issue which some found to be disputed. I then inserted that he was a member of Kokuchokai, which since inserted nobody objected to – as he was a member of that group (quite devoted actually) – which you deleted. And now you are trying to warn me!?--Catflap08 (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The best description of his religious affiliation is "he was a devout follower of Nichiren Buddhism, which had a significant influence on several of his literary works, and had a special affection for the Lotus Sutra". Very few sources even mention the Kokuchukai, and those that do never draw the same conclusions you have, which you explicitly stated are the conclusions you also want this article's readers to draw. Your specific desire to name the organization with which he was affiliated, and to overlink your own poorly-written article on that group so as to encourage our readers to draw the same conclusion you have, is disruptive. Three users -- User:Dekimasu, the 128 IP and myself -- have all independently opposed you on this point, and no one has taken your side. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I know you probably think, again in violation of WP:AGF, that the IP was me, but please consider that the IP reverted you on January 13, you reverted back immediately, I was actively making logged-in edits at the time, and it took me over a month to notice what had been going on on this page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:47, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hijiri 88 The term “devout” seems a rather peacock term please note WP:FLOWERY. You keep changing the subject. First of all I changed the wording in June 2014 to the effect that he was a nationalist, this was challenged and discussed. I accepted that. I then entered the fact that he was a member Kokuchukai, This remained to be in the article until you deleted it. A fact that is mentioned in the main body of the article. You then carried on and deleted a reference I added dealing with the issue in the foreword to one of his own translations. You said you found it not suitable which is a POV, you insert “devout Nichiren Buddhist” you like the wording better. In effect you delete a reference that deals with the fact discussed and deleted factual information with a vague statement.--Catflap08 (talk) 07:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have now added a RfC, as it becomes increasingly harder to follow your intention about the outcome of this discussion. Additionally you have added comments on both talk pages that I find to come close to a personal attack/insult.--Catflap08 (talk) 08:29, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Membership to Kokuchūkai deleted in lede, reference dealing with it also deleted.--Catflap08 (talk) 08:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above is a gross misrepresentation of the dispute, and this RFC was made in bad faith by someone being opposed by all three other involved users, in violation of WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:CANVAS. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:20, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So much for gross misinterpretation.

#1: [1]

#2: [2]--Catflap08 (talk) 15:07, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What about the fact that this RFC is just forum-shopping, after three other users have already opposed this specific edit, and about a dozen more opposed your earlier characterization of Kenji as a "nationalist", and at the time you were saying the two were one and the same? This RFC is simply a rebranding of the same exact topic as the previous RFC, in which numerous users opposed your additions and no one agreed with you, and your failure to admit to these facts in your opening summary is a clear attempt to bias other users who don't know any better in favour of your side of the debate. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:38, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Hijiri 88 The edit you refer to was overturned in June 2014. You now however oppose the fact him being mentioned as a member of that organisation in the lede. Calling him a devout Buddhist is one thing (even though quite misleading) – why is it such a problem to state exactly which Buddhist organisation he was a member of? Again you accuse me of stuff as all I did was inserting documented facts. --Catflap08 (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's a violation of WP:UNDUE to refer to the organization in the lede. All our sources indicate that he was interested in the faith in the Lotus Sutra, not, as you put it in your discussion of your current proposed wording, "a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda". You've been about as clear as you can be that emphasizing Kenji's supposed nationalism is your goal here, so mentioning the fact that consensus was already against you on this fact and the current RFC is a violation of WP:FORUMSHOP is entirely relevant. Also, regarding Kenji's mostly non-denominational devotion to the Lotus Sutra, I would draw potential commenters to the Donald Keene quote I posted on your talk page just now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17:39, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well what about he was devout Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai? Saying in the lede that he was devout Buddhist makes him look to the reader as a guy may be sitting in mediation in a zen monastery drinking tea and writing poetry. He was not. He was a member of a Buddhist organisation on the fringe of Nichiren Buddhism. A form of Buddhism that some say to be on the fringe of Buddhism full stop. Further … when you speak of „Plan“. Yes there was indeed a plan. I work mainly on Nichiren related matters. If you look up some dictionaries Nichiren Buddhism is often connected to fierce nationalism and many issue become mixed up. I therefore researched the issue and came across the term “Nichirenshugi” which scholars translate as Nichirenism in this conext one comes across Kokuchūkai and Tanaka Chigaku, League of Blood Incident and Nissho Inoue. I guess they all had the plan to discredit Miyazawa. Certainly any author out there mentioning Miyazawa’s membership with Kokuchūkai are also part of a great big “plan”.--Catflap08 (talk) 20:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Again, find a 6-sentence summary of an encyclopedia article (hell, find an encyclopedia article!) on him that mentions Kokuchukai, and then we can talk. The one source you have cited over the past few days is the introduction to a children's book that is so poorly-written that we could easily assume it got its information from Wikipedia. He was completely devoted to the Lotus Sutra (like Nichiren Buddhists tend to be) and lived his life according to it, his dying wish being to have a thousand copies of the Sutra in Japanese translation distributed to friends and associates. He infused Buddhist terminology into his poetry and children's stories. There is not a scrap of evidence except in WP:FRINGE sources trying to claim a nationalistic agenda for Kenji that he held any affection for the politics of the religious group that he worked within for a brief period long after converting to Nichiren Buddhism. The second half of your above comment is an extended admission that you are still on this "he was a nationalist" rant that was soundly resolved last summer.

@Factchecker25: @Prasangika37: @Teply: @The Gnome: @NickCT: @Solarra: @Iamozy: @Dekimasu: How do you folks all feel about Catflap08 trying to get around the previous consensus and starting a whole new RFD on the same exact topic in a different colour T-shirt?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:48, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Remove – summoned by botomatron. From what I can understand of this dispute, there should not be any reference to him being in Kokuchūkai unless it is impeccably sourced, as it seems to go against all other known data about his life. If Kokuchūkai was the man's belief and religion and philosophy, then surely he would himself have mentioned it many times. There should be no reference to him being a nationalist either. If a historic figure is a true nationalist, that information tends to be easy to find. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Wikimandia: Strictly speaking he was a member of the group -- for about eight months, mostly because of geographical convenience. The problem arises from one user being personally convinced that the subject was "not a devout Buddhist, but a nationalist", and wants this article's readers to click the link to his own poorly-sourced article on the group so they can draw the same (almost certainly incorrect) conclusions. The standard scholarly view is that the subject had a brief flirtation with the group and, if as Catflap08 claims the group had a "dubious nationalist agenda", our subject was unaware of that fact. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:26, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: Thanks for the explanation. Definitely agree it doesn't belong in the intro at all. There's no significance in the scope of his life - it's not like he was with the Symbionese Liberation Army for eight months. Looking at the previous RFC and discussions this is clearly someone's personal agenda that IMHO needs to be escalated because of its disruptive nature and likelihood it will continue past this RfC. —Мандичка^YO 😜 09:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Responded on your talk page. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 8 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well since it is said that Kenji was a “devout” Buddhist the only affiliation registered is the one with Kokuchukai. What I can gather is that his family followed Pure Land Buddhism which is not noted to be Lotus Sutra based. If Kenji was registered and affiliated with any other Nichiren based temple, lineage or oragnisation it should be noted. Please note that calling a source using “bad English” is a PVO, hence preselecting what the reader should be able read. Please also note that the nationalist issues has already been dealt with.--Catflap08 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Catflap08: What about the temple he was buried in? The article cites this information and it's thoroughly sourced with absolutely no misrepresentation whatsoever of what the sources say. Unlike most of what you write on Wikipedia, which seems to be mostly your personal opinions and guesses, which sometimes happen to correspond with what you claim are your sources and sometimes don't. I don't know what a "PVO" is -- do you mean "POV"? And yes, if a source was originally published in English, and the quality of that English is extremely poor, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume the source had a lack of editorial oversight, meaning it could very easily be one author's poorly considered opinion, or even based on Wikipedia. But all of this is beside the point, since what the source says is irrelevant to the real problem here: that you are cherry-picking sources in order to promote your own WP:FRINGE POV. If I wanted to cite my own POV, I would say your going out of your way to attack a local hero of Iwate Prefecture, about whom you clearly know nothing, on the fourth anniversary of the Great East Japan Earthquake and Tsunami was offensive and wrong. But that's also pretty irrelevant to this dispute. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:48, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You should start making up your mind if it’s the so called poor English that you oppose or the information the “poor English” contains. Secondly if the Kenji man’s family belonged to Pure Land Buddhism it would be likely that he was buried in such an affiliated temple graveyard. Please note that his affiliation with Kokuchukai is not one with a traditional Buddhist sect or school, so given the time he died and the time the organisation was founded they had no graveyard(s) for their adherents. Since in literature it is underlined that he was affiliated with Nichiren Buddhsim the only Nichiren based organisation he was an adherent of is the one already mentioned. --Catflap08 (talk) 20:11, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, because all families like to spit on the last wishes of their favourite son. You are making speculations with absolutely no reference to reliable sources. Your friend John Carter has said numerous times that users acquainted with Buddhism and Japan in general should be fixing these problems; you are ignoring all the reliable sources on this topic because they are all in Japanese. Actually no: you are ignoring them because they don't say what you want them to. Stop this madness now. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:26, 11 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Move to close Catflap08 was unanimously opposed in his earlier attempt to characterize Kenji as a nationalist, and he has now been unanimously opposed in his attempts to trick our readers into clicking a wikilink that, thanks entirely to him, would cause them to think we was a nationalist. I reported his abuses on ANI with a no-consensus result on how to deal with him. He posted a revenge ANI against me and, when it didn't go the way he wanted (and he apparently didn't get his way on an unrelated page) he has apparently now retired. With no one left to argue in favour of his proposed change, I can't see anything good coming out of this RFC. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Why was the reference to membership of Kokuchūkai deleted removed from the lead? Kokuchūkai is mentioned six times in the main body, and his membership appears to be significant, given the impact it had on his relationship with his father, that it is argued it had an influence on his later writings, and that there is speculation (albeit minor) that it reveals some of his political affiliations. Per WP:Lead, "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:06, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• @ User:SilkTork It is because a certain editor does not want to see such references being made. The Kenji man’s only affiliation with Nichiren Buddhism is the one mentioned. The nature of the organisation he decided to join at the time is clear – some however decide to practice white washing.--Catflap08 (talk) 19:22, 24 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@SilkTork: Per WP:BURDEN and WP:BRD, the dispute is not over whether a reference to the Kokuchukai should be "deleted" from the lede, but whether one should be added. The significance of the group to his overall biography is dubious, as you can see if you actually read through the references in the article body. His relationship with his father was not affected by his brief association with the Kokuchukai; he had already had a falling out with his father after converting to Nichiren Buddhism six years earlier. All of our reliable sources indicate that he was briefly associated with the group during his less-than-a-year stint in Tokyo, during which he likely had minimal contact with his father who lived hundreds of miles away. I've said enough about why one Wikipedia editor has been arguing with me and several others over this point: you can review the evidence and decide for yourself what has been going on.

Sorry for the over dramatic use of "deleted", that was me just being sloppy and picking up on the phrase used earlier. I have now corrected it to "removed". BRD is a behavioural guideline related to being bold in editing, but not angry, and about avoiding edit wars - it's not actually about making editorial decisions. BURDEN would relate to mention of Kokuchukai anywhere in the article, not any particular place. If Kokuchukai is mentioned significantly in the main body (which it is) then that mention needs to be summarised in the lead, per WP:Lead. Either Kokuchukai is relevant to this topic, in which case it is detailed in the body and summarised in the lead; or it not significant, in which case it shouldn't be in the article at all. I would suggest, that until you guys resolve the question of should Kokuchukai be discussed in the article, then, as the article currently stands, Kokuchukai should be mentioned in the lead. I am not an expert on the subject, so can't comment on the relevance of Kokuchukai to Kenji Miyazawa other than what I see already in the article, which appears to indicate enough significance to warrant mention. I just did a quick Google search; this is not always satisfactory for academic studies, but I did find this article by Jon Holt in the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies which is all about Kenji Miyazawa and Kokuchukai, and which in its opening paragraph underlines that there is significant scholarship on the relationship: " Reframing both the scholarship on Kenji’s ties to the prominent prewar Nichiren organization, the Kokuchūkai, and the research on Kenji’s close friendship with Hosaka Kanai, I demonstrate how the salvation that the protagonist Giovanni finds in the story is shaped by the teachings of Nichiren Buddhism". Given that specialists in the subject are interested in Kenji Miyazawa's relationship with Kokuchukai, what exactly is the reason why you feel it should be deliberately excluded? SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the ambiguity. My reference to BRD was to say that the default stance should be that if a change is made and reverted, it should be discussed on the talk page before being re-added. BURDEN was mentioned because the "burden" of providing adequate sources and obtaining consensus is on the party wishing to add or maintain something in the article, not the party that wants to remove it. They were both referenced exclusively in response to your use of the word "delete", which implied that the default state should have it left in. Your revised (and better) wording "remove" actually has the same problem, though. The reference to Kokuchukai in the lede, as opposed to a single brief mention in the body, is a recent addition that has been opposed by four other users including myself, and you are the first to defend it other than the original editor, so it would be better to say "Why shouldn't the reference to membership of Kokuchukai be added to the lead?" But it's a minor stylistic point and you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree because...

If you look at the page history, you will see that I am responsible for 4/5 of the references to Kokuchukai in the body. (The other two uses of the name in the citations were also me.) I added a more detailed discussion than was there previously in response to the current dispute, in order to demonstrate that his relationship to the group is questionable -- the group himself claim him, but literary historians are doubtful, and he was ultimately buried in an unrelated temple. The paper you cite is interesting, but it's not a biographical piece on Kenji. It's a scholarly analysis of the influence of Nichiren Buddhism, and Kokuchukai philosophy in particular, on one of his novels. I have not had time to read the paper in detail, but the quote you provide (it comes from lines 9-13 of the abstract -- I did at least read that far) implies the connection is an original theory of the author, and a recent (2014) one at that. Even if the author was saying "Kenji was a member of the group until the moment of his death, and I can prove it" this would still be a WP:WEIGHT problem when presented with the fact that other biographical works specifically addressing Kenji's religious views don't necessarily say this. Keene's History of Japanese Literature has ten pages devoted to Kenji's bio, and the Kokuchukai is blink-and-you-miss-it. Japanese books with "Miyazawa Kenji" in the titles go into more detail but generally are skeptical about his long-term commitment to the group and even his awareness of the group's allegedly nationalist agenda.

I'm also interested to know what exactly you want the lede to say: the original proposal was to replace "devout Buddhist" with "member of Kokuchukai", with the expressed reasoning being "Traditionally in Japan one would be expected to be registered with a temple when called a Buddhist. Kokuchukai is a lay organisation, not affiliated to any Buddhist school and with a dubious nationalist agenda". Your cited source is obviously inadequate for the claim "he was not a Buddhist but a member of a dubious quasi-Buddhist nationalist organization". Are you in favour of the wording "He was known as ... a devout Nichiren Buddhist (and a member of the Kokuchukai)"?

My view is that, even in a parenthetical statement like this, linking to the poorly sourced and unbalanced article on the Kokuchukai in the lede is overkill, and anyone who doesn't read the more detailed discussion in the article body but left-clicks the wikilink will come away with completely the wrong idea. I tried to fix the Kokuchukai article but had such an unpleasant time of it that, even though there was no real chance of my edits being reverted, I just pulled out of actively editing the article. If you want to have a stab at fixing that article so linking to it here more than the bare minimum won't introduce massive weight and POV problems, be my guest. As for this page, encyclopedia articles on Kenji hardly never mention the Kokuchukai. Biographies give only brief mention and are uncertain as to whether he left the group within a year. Only sources specifically discussing the Kokuchukai's supposed (remember, it's not the consensus view yet if it appeared once in one journal article published last year) influence on his literary works give any emphasis to the group in relation to him, and those sources have a very specific reason for doing so. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:21, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for expanding on your view. I think what you are saying is that you don't want the Wikipedia article to imply that he was nationalistic through what may be a tentative link to an organisation with nationalistic leanings, or for readers to leap to a conclusion that is not yet proven, And that is the right approach. From what you have said, though, it seems entirely appropriate that mention is given of Kokuchukai in the main body, with sufficient context and explanation from sources to indicate the position you outline above: that there is some speculation on his involvement with the organisation, and on its impact on his life and work. As there are some specialists who feel his involvement with the organisation was important, we should mention it, including mentioning that there are other specialists who question the importance of his affiliation. To remain quiet on the subject appears odd, and is not what we do, as that would be a disservice to those readers who may have read that he is associated with the group. Once we have material in the main body detailing the affiliation, speculation on its importance, and the counter speculation that it wasn't important, then a summary of the situation should appear in the lead: "He was a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist organisation with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what relevance this had on his life and work." You then use the main body to explain more fully this statement. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you have misread the controversy slightly: I agree that proper discussion of his relationship with the group, well-written and diligently-sourced, should be included in the article body. That is why when you arrived here you found six uses of the word "Kokuchukai" in the article body rather than only one: I myself had written a full section discussing Kenji's religious views, featuring four sentences on his relationship with the group. I had written this in order to address the present controversy of whether he was a member of the Kokuchukai until his death and it was the only religious group with which he was affiliated, a claim continuing to be made on this talk page. The problem here is whether mention of the group belongs in the lede. I agree that the lede should summarize the content of the article, but it's impossible to read the current discussion of the Kokuchukai as justifying the characterization "he was a devout Nichiren Buddhist (a member of the Kokuchukai)" in the lede. I understand you could read it as "the Kokuchukai is discussed in detail in the body, therefore it should be in the lede", but it's just an accident of history that the body is written as it is, with proportionally as much emphasis on the Kokuchukai as there is. Print sources discussing Kenji don't give anywhere near as much weight to the group. Your proposed wording is not bad, and in an ideal world our article would have a detailed discussion of that issue in its body and we could afford to word its lede like that. But at present your proposed lede wording is essentially the same as what the body says. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Catflap08: He was buried in a mainstream Nichiren temple with no affiliation with the Kokuchukai. At least three other established users, not counting the IP, have opposed you on this exact point, let alone the dozen or so who opposed you last time you tried something very similar. Your attempt to classify this as "one editor" opposing your proposed addition is laughable. As an aside, could you please stop calling him "the Kenji man"? It sounds derogatory, and if you have such a low opinion of the man and the scholars who have devoted time and effort to writing books about him that you're not even willing to check how they describe him, I would suggest you stay away from this article from now on.Struck own inappropriate response to ad hominem remark as per advice on user talk page.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I don't have enough time to look into this presently, but let me just say that Nichiren Buddhism has been described in scholarly sources as having a somewhat nationalistic component. The very name Nichiren is mentioned in a chapter subtitled "Buddhism nationalism, and history in medieval Japan" [3]. Accordingly, there do not seem to be grounds to say that someone affiliated with Nichren could not be a devout Buddhist and nationalistic. The two do not necessarily seem to be incompatible. Context is important, though.--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 17:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not actually seeing a really clear RfC question here, but I'm guessing it is about the mention of the group affiliation in the lede. There seems on one hand, to my possibly uninformed eyes, to be an attempt to differentiate between belief in the Lotus Sutra and being a member of one of the groups which were established on the basis of it. To my, perhaps uninformed, eyes, that sounds to me anyway like trying to say that it can be quite relevant to say someone might believe in the Book of Genesis, but his Jewishness or Christianity (whichever) is not important. I do not know that such a differentiation is often, if ever, made in any instances of the hypothetical proposal I put forward (although I could be wrong), and, although I suppose it might be in this case possible that the subject was perhaps a believer in some form of "nonsectarian" support of the Lotus Sutra, I think the basic guidelines around here would support saying that his membership in a group, if established by RS, is generally relevant if the subject notably prominently holds beliefs which are consistent with that group. Instances of Marrano-type individuals are known worldwide, but in general it is somewhat OR to say that one is such a "false adherent" to a belief unless sources specifically state as much, otherwise, we indicate the affiliation which is supported by RS's. So, so far as I can tell, some mention of group affiliation, possibly with additional "qualifier", to the effect that he was only interested in the Lotus Sutra, would seem indicated. John Carter (talk) 18:43, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To make clear what the ongoing dispute is about. I once edited the introduction saying that Kenji was a Nationalist. This was challenged by the editor known as Hijiri 88. That point was taken and the lede remained saying he was a devout Buddhist. I later on included in the introduction that Kenji was a member of Kokuchūkai. It seems to have been established by SilkTork and John Carter that the introduction should sum up what is stated in the article. The influence of the Lotus Sutra in Kenji`s works are documented as well as his affiliation with Nichiren Buddhism. In this context the only affiliation documented is the one with Kokuchūkai – an organisation on the fringe of Nichiren Buddhism with a clear nationalist agenda, an organisation being still regarded NIchiren Buddhist. Kenji`s own family seems to have been affiliated with Pure Land Buddhism which is not based on the Lotus Sutra nor Nichiren Buddhism. So what is the problem? There is none. Kenji was a poet and what some call devout Buddhist – but also an adherent of a group devoted to a nationalistic interpretation of Nichiren`s teachings. In the course of events I was called a “jerk” and “jackass” and my citizenship ridiculed – as a German I am only allowed to hold one citizenship my background however is British, German and Czech. And finally @ _Fortuna I so far only edit regarding this ongoing conflict – if and to what extent en.Wikipedia is worth paying attention to is up to my discretion. If the reliability of information being visible to the average user is not a prime objective anymore I am not willing to waste much time unless I see gross misinformation.--Catflap08 (talk) 22:04, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Catflap08 -thanks for the call... why is this to do with me??? I'm honoured all the same... _Fortuna ^{Imperatrix Mundi} 23:10, 25 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ubikwit: You've clearly misread this dispute, and I don't blame you -- it's a fustercluck. The dispute is not over whether he was a nationalist or whether we can call him a nationalist, as that dispute was resolved pretty conclusively last summer. The dispute is how the lede should summarize his religious views/affiliation: was he (a) "a devout Buddhist"; (b) "a member of the Kokuchukai"; (c) "a devout Buddhist (member of the Kokuchukai)"; (d) "a devout Nichiren Buddhist"; or (e) "a devout Nichiren Buddhist (member of the Kokuchukai)"?
Option (a) is the original wording. (b) is Catflap's original edit that was reverted by Dekimasu. (c) is the wording Catflap introduced after Dekimasu's revert. (d) is my wording. (e) is a hypothetical based on a combination of my wording with Catflap's. I am partial to (d) because that's how he is described in most of the sources I have read. Catflap says that Kenji was not associated with any Buddhist organization other than the Kokuchukai, and I'm not sure which of the five options he prefers. I also disagree that Kenji was not associated with any other organization, since he was buried in an unaffiliated temple.
@John Carter: Your analogy is basically flawed, since no one is arguing that he was not a "Buddhist" or a "Nichiren Buddhist". The dispute is over whether the lede should name-check a particular fringe group with which he was briefly associated. A better analogy would be to say John Smith was referred to in all the reliable sources as a devout Christian (Baptist) who was enraptured with the book of Genesis; he was briefly a member of the Westborough Baptist Church when he lived in Westborough, but apparently showed little interest in that group after moving back to his hometown of Phoenix; in the years since his death countless books and papers have been written about him and his religious views, and most barely mention the Westborough Baptist Church; none of the abundant encyclopedia articles on him even mention the group.
According to this analogy, (Personal attack removed)Catflap is now trying to either replace or tag onto the wording "he was a Christian" the note "member of the Westborough Baptist Church".
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:38, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: OK, thanks for pointing that out. I've read about ten pages of the relatively new academic paper (2014) SilkTork posted yesterday, and that says he was a Nichiren Buddhist and a "devout Buddhist writer", so it probably supports the characterization of "devout Nichiren Buddhist", and also documents his membership in the Kokuchukai and discusses the scholarly interpretations of its significance.

I would think that a text along the lines proposed by SilkTork, maybe with the addition of "devout Nichiren Buddhist", would be the most comprehensively inclusive and neutral approach:

"He was a devout Nichiren Buddhist and had been a member of the Kokuchukai, a Nichiren Buddhist organisation with nationalistic leanings, though it is unclear for how long, and what relevance this had to his life and work".

--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 16:26, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This matter appears to be resolved so I have removed the RfC tag. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 12:09, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I will yet include the reference made in a foreword to one of Miyazawa’s English language translations. A Foreword that makes reference of him being a Buddhist, Nichiren Buddhist and member of Kokuchūkai. Further more this is a reference for all to read via google books.--Catflap08 (talk) 21:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The English in that foreword is terrible, though not much worse than what you have been expecting me to read on these talk pages. Worse, it doesn't actually say what you claim it does. It says the same thing as the Donald Keene quote I put on your talk page: that his membership in the Kokuchukai was peripheral to his biography at best and all that really mattered to him was the Lotus Sutra itself. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:26, 1 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Dekimasu: I liked this edit and I agree with your motivation, and like I said in my edit summary the timeline is going to be a bit screwy if we include a separate section on his religious views.

The way I see it the main problem is that he went to Tokyo initially for religious reasons, and not discussing his conversion to Nichiren Buddhism and his desire to "spread the word" (for want of better terminology) before talking about what he did in Tokyo seems a little confusing. (It's not a criticism of your tweaking, since I'd be one to talk with my edit discussing his death right in the middle of the biography.)

I think we should probably overhaul the section-titles in this article, since "early life" is a misnomer (he lived to be 37 and the section deals with his life up to the age of 24) and "literary career" is problematic (he was never a "professional" writer and he only received payment of five yen for one story in his whole life). The section titled "literary career" is actually about that portion of his biography (it's even told in roughly chronological order like a Wikipedia bio should be) in between when he moved to Tokyo and started actively writing (as a hobby, it would seem) and when the time came to discuss his death. There is literary stuff in that section, but it's mostly biographical.

I think giving one brief outline (Biography) of his life and the key events of said life -- maybe about the length of the current "literary career" section -- should come first. This section would deal with his sister's sickness and death, his relationship to the other members of his family, and so on, in much greater detail than it does now. (Can you believe this article still doesn't give his sister's name!? Up until yesterday, the English Wikipedia article on Miyazawa Kenji name-checked Tanaka Chigaku but not Miyazawa Toshi!) There could be some literary stuff here, but it's mostly to provide background information necessary to understand the following sections.

This would be followed by another section (no problem with keeping theLiterary career moniker, frankly) discussing his literary works in enough detail as is normal for literary biographies. The usual stuff (I haven't actually verified much of the present completely unsourced section, so I don't know about that content, but the biographical stuff can be completely cut out because it will be covered in the above section.

Then there's the section I worked on yesterday (Religious beliefs). I wrote it myself and put a lot of work into it, but I don't think it's perfect. I included the material about how "some scholars" consider him to have been a nationalist as a form of compromise with ... that other guy ... but it feels like I was violating WP:POINT or something, and blanking that paragraph is probably still better because fringe is still fringe.

What do you think?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 11:32, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]