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Archives

12 August 2005 – 5 December 2015

"Found refuge" sounds POV, as it means "a condition of being safe or sheltered from pursuit, danger, or trouble." Was the family being persecuted or in danger? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, as Silesians they had to evacuate their home from the advancing Red Army. The wording used in the source (Die Zeit) "Als Dr. Gadermann aus der Kriegsgefangenschaft entlassen wurde, fand er die Familie Rudels als Flüchtlinge [refugees] in seiner elterlichen Wohnung in Wuppertal." Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:20, 13 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By my count 11 editors were for the removal of the Wehrmachtbericht transcripts, while one editor was for keeping the transcript but did not offer a rationale as to why. Could the reverting editor clarify?

Please see related discussions:

• NPOV noticeboard discussion: here

• Bach-Zelewski

• Rommel

• Manstein

K.e.coffman (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Dapi89: Per BRD, please advise. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am referring to the section Later life with all its past scandals, what some football captain said in 1976; aiding Peron and Pinochet at the same time (!). Long notes of what a publisher published just after the war. Confusing, not interesting; could be summarized. Creuzbourg (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

why isn't the football stuff interesting?

the publisher material is the result of a long argument about what might be a decent source, it is the result of a compromise.

the fact that he involved himself post-war in an issue is relevant, even if he tried to play both ends. His life didn't end at the end of the war. It went on, and he continued to be active in other events.

Just saying! auntieruth (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Later life should of course be included, but not with this mass of details. Rudel was an unrepentenant Nazi, and acted accordingly, but the vast amount of petty details are just confusing the issue. Why is the opinions of a now forgotten soccer player about the Argentine military dictatorship of interest? "The result of a compromise", as long as that attitude prevails, Wikipedia can never reach excellence. Creuzbourg (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The note about the Dürer-Verlag is redundant; isn't it obvious that a publisher publishing Nazi apologetic, also is publishing other revisionist literature.

"Cocaine Generals"; no links, no explanation.

Bad continuity, due to an overflow of details: "Rudel suffered a stroke on 26 April 1970." The next sentence: "Rudel returned to West Germany in 1953." Suddenly a jump from 1970 to 1953!

It is the section Public Scandals that is mostly filled with the actions, doings, and sayings of other persons than Rudel, with a mass of intricate details concerning German domestic politics, that does not belong to this article.

The first two paragraphs: Rudel Scandal; there are 388 word in this paragraph. The main article contains only 279 word. The treatment of the affair is more thoroughly here than in the main article. This text should be moved to the main article, and the affair summarized in two or three sentences.

The third paragraph: Rudel watches soccer, mostly details the sayings of other persons than Rudel, besides enumerating what soccer games he watched. Hardly of common interest.

The box with a Rudel quote, seems to be totally out of context. What is it referring to?

Finally, the last section, Summary of military career, is misplaced at the end of the article.

The mass of detail seems to be there to prove that Rudel was a bad man and a Nazi; who doubts it: he was an unrepentenant Nazi, but its not a war crime to watch soccer. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As to User:MisterBee1966 just removing the tag; remember: It is not okay to remove maintenance templates until the issue flagged by the template is remedied first – that is, only once the maintenance tag is no longer valid. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You make the assumption that the tag is valid, while in reality it your opinion only. The article was peer reviewed and GA reviewed and never once was this topic raised. In essence, it is one opinion against many. Currently there is no consensus for you claim. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Of course it is my opinion; tags are put in by individual editors, not committees. There can be no support for my claim, if its not allowed to be discussed. Btw: I thought you were retired. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want me to leave? MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not! I clicked on your name and got the message that you have retired; This user is no longer active on Wikipedia. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most of this seems less to do with detail than style. Dapi89 (talk) 16:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Read through the article; the reference to the 1978 World Cup exposes Rudel's continued support and admiration of authoritarian regimes. It shows his Nazi-style views infected every facet of his life, even sport. Of course, it isn't a crime to watch football. But that isn't the point being made.Dapi89 (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The president of the DFB, Hermann Neuberger, justified the visit, and stated that criticizing Rudel's visit was "an insult to all German soldiers" ("käme einer Beleidigung aller deutschen Soldaten gleich").[99] The German team captain, Berti Vogts, further fostered the criticism by stating after the World Cup: "Argentina is a country governed by law and order. I have not seen a single political prisoner." ("Land, in dem Ordnung herrscht. Ich habe keinen einzigen politischen Gefangenen gesehen.") [---] Rudel had already visited a German team at a World Cup before. He was a spectator of the 1954 FIFA World Cup Final in Switzerland, and during the 1958 FIFA World Cup in Sweden, he visited the German team at Malmö following its 3:1 victory over Argentina on 8 June 1958. There he was welcomed by team manager Sepp Herberger.

My objections can be specified as follows:

• What Neuberger says is of no interest for the readers understanding of Rudel.
• What Vogts says doesn't have any bearing on Rudel.
• His visit to the German national team in Switzerland was not critized, and since Switzerland is and was a democracy, cannot be evidence of Rudel's support and admiration of authoritarian regimes.
• The same goes for the WC in Sweden.
• That Sepp Herberger welcomed him gives nothing to our understanding of Rudel.
• Whether intended or not, the text gives the impression of an indictment of the German soccer association, and the German soccer players as crypto-Nazis.
• Its redundant with text both in German and in English.

The whole quotation is in violation of criterion 3 for a Good Article: staying focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail. Hence it should be removed. The following text could be retained: During the 1978 FIFA World Cup, held in Argentina, Rudel visited the German national football team in their training camp in Ascochinga. The German media criticized the German Football Association (DFB—Deutscher Fußball-Bund), and viewed Rudel's visit as being sympathetic to the military dictatorship that ruled Argentina following the 1976 Argentine coup d'état.

And this is just one example, the whole article is full of these talkative expositions and meticulous investigations of insignificant details. Creuzbourg (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rudel's visits to the German national football team are significant. They are still frequently recalled in the German media. However, the scandal affected Herman Neuberger more than anybody else. It was him and the DFB who were critiziced for harboring sympathies for facism, while it actually had been coach Helmut Schön who had allowed Rudel into the camp. Schön knew Rudel at least since Rudel's visits during Herberger's tenure as coach, for example during the 1958 WC. In 1954 Rudel also tried to arrange a friendly match between Argentina and West Germany. But that's another story. Thus the incident is not being properly presented in the article, but it's not per se intricate details. In my opinion, however, there are many intricate details, since Rudel's military service is recounted in minute detail. Given that most of the references are to the usual militaria KC-recipient's literature, that's not too surprising. Fraschka and Brütting stand out for their strong bias, and, of course, Günther Just's "adulatory" (Smelser/Davies, p. 277) biography of Rudel. Just had already published Hans Ulrich Rudel. Adler der Ostfront (Eagle of the Eastern Front) with Hanoverian National-Verlag in 1971, a publisher with close ties to the NPD. In 1983 Just aptly received the new "Hans-Ulrich-Rudel-Award" from Gerhard Frey. --Assayer (talk) 14:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm with Assayer et al on this. Rudel's postwar intrigues probably were more important than his war-time activities. They should be well covered. auntieruth (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on post-war, but Assayer's comments, and apparent irritation, that his wartime service is too detailed are off the mark. Four years service and 2,000 missions is not easy to abbreviate, nor should we. Dapi89 (talk) 16:56, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The OPs explanations are cogent, and I agree with them. The MilHist's definition of appropriate level of detail is not shared by all (including both within and outside of the project). Please see for example: Wikipedia:Good_article_reassessment/Hyacinth_Graf_Strachwitz/1, where an editor outside of the project commented: There is an immense amount of intricate detail that is along the realm of "military fancruft." If this is a typical A-Class or GA-class military biographical article, then I would suggest that there is a systemic issue for articles of this kind.

Most recently, I've been having a similar discussion with one of the editors in this thread at WP:NPOVN, where in fact I cited the Rudel discussion: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Fringe_source_in_WWII_bio_article.

So yes, this article exhibits some of the issues where WP:LOCALCONSENSUS & community consensus diverge. I support the efforts by Creuzbourg to streamline this article, and the discussion & improvements should continue. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:03, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that Creuzbourg aims for a complete removal of the content. Instead he suggested a more concise presentation. Why shouldn't we aim for a more concise article, even if it's not easy? Is it possible to put the article under scrutiny, or is the idea to freeze the article as it stands? Because comments like "one editor versus three" certainly do not signal any intent or willingness for discussion.

I am not at all irritated The article is pretty much what I came to expect in the English Wikipedia. Let me quote from the article to give an example for intricate details (and repetitive prose). On the morning of 12 August 1943, Rudel and Hentschel respectively completed their 1,300th and 1,000th combat mission. Hentschel was the first air gunner to achieve this mark.[37] On the morning of 9 October 1943, Rudel and Hentschel respectively completed their 1,500th and 1,200th combat mission. Rudel was the first pilot to achieve this mark.The event was celebrated at an airfield at Kostromka, south of Kryvyi Rih, and was attended by General der Flieger Kurt Pflugbeil, commanding general of the IV. Fliegerkorps (4th Air Corps). There is much more like that. Apart from Rudel's combat missions we also learn about missions in which he did not participate, about his skiing vacation in Tirol, how he met Hitler (the day before Hitler's final birthday - we do not learn that Hitler considered Rudel to be his successor or that he designed the highest variant of the KC specifically for Rudel for propaganda reasons, though). His political activities in post-war Germany are presented second to his sports activities. In general the article is not really about Rudel's many combat missions, but about statistics, awards and decorations. --Assayer (talk) 19:00, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did a light copyedit; I'm finding much wordiness, foreign-language terms, ol, etc & irrelevant detail about other ppl. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:53, 2 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid Creuzbourg has deleted a large swathe of Early life material that is included to meet the comprehensiveness criteria. Failure to understand this is at the heart of the problem with his editing of this article. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am afraid the Peacemaker67 doesn't understand the criteria for a Good Article; comprehensiveness is not included, only covering main aspects without going into unnecessary detail. The original GA-review was notably lacking in covering the last aspect. I guess I should have requested a Good article reassessment, but since I believe that the effort and research of the original editors are worth all appreciation, I thought that would be overkill, and it would be enough to copyedit the text. Creuzbourg (talk) 09:03, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See: Talk:Arthur Rhys-Davids/GA1 where a reviewer has made the same kind of objections as I, for an article nominated by User:Dapi89. Detailed family history not really relevant and should be summarized if included at all. Why is time mentioned now since it wasn't given earlier? And does it really matter? Watch for overlinking. Creuzbourg (talk) 09:30, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One article, one opinion, and whose mother was notable enough for article of her own. Useless observation.

Wikipedia:Tag team springs to mind. Dapi89 (talk) 06:36, 4 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I streamlined the lead further by reducing blow-by-blow statistics and intricate explanations (i.e. if Rudel's foot was amputated, of course he would spend time in the hospital). Please see diff. K.e.coffman (talk) 18:38, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering what purpose the quote serves. There's no context, and it's unclear what its presence in the article is trying to convey.

Feedback? K.e.coffman (talk) 19:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the excessive foreign language translations; pls see diff. Interested readers can click on the link, and avoidance of foreign language terms accompanied by italics also improves readability.

Separately, please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Hans-Ulrich Rudel where translations were brought up. In part due the prose issues, the article was not promoted to MilHist A-class status. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]