So I am looking at switching User:NoSandboxesHere from AWB to a always-running PHP script. It does exactly the same thing as the AWB process (just does a regex search on anything in the Draft namespace with {{User sandbox}} or {{Userspace draft}}), however doesn't rely on Category:Non-userspace pages using User sandbox, it uses getTransclusions from RMCD bot's version of botclasses, filtering by the namespace.

Do I need a new/replacement BRFA for this or can I go ahead and just switch it out. Example diff in my userspace is just here ({{Fuuuuuu}} is just an invalid template I added to the script to make sure the API calls were working) - Rich^T|C|E-Mail 21:02, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Go for it. Primefac (talk) 21:47, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We are creating a bot to scrape information of Malls in United States from the Wiki pages. Mall Data Scraping Bot (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: User:Mall Data Scraping Bot: If you don't want to make any edits, see Wikipedia:Database download. If you want to have a bot make edits, a request must be made using your own, non-bot, account. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I have inserted two pictures, Dainikjagran.jpg and Hindustanarticle.jpg, in an article. Both are original and aren't copyrighted material. That's an extract from a newspaper, which is legal to use. But now both are nominated for speedy deletion. Please approve both the images back. Don't delete them. Enigmaticpravin (talk) 09:50, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bots/Requests for approval page, you may want to follow up with whomever you were discussing that with on their own talk page. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:43, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

QEDKbot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was approved at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/QEDKbot on 20 May 2020, by @Primefac. The approval seems surprising, since there were several well-founded objections, and no community consensus for its functions. The BRFA was advertised at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive317#Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/QEDKbot, but not at any page which concentrates editors who work on categories, such as WT:CATP.

The bot's function is to populate Category:Empty categories with no backlinks. That category was nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 9#Category:Empty_categories_with_no_backlinks, and the discussion is still open. I spotted the discussion yesterday, and while the bot owner QEDK has been prompt and courteous in their replies, I haven't been able to glean from QEDK any clear explanation of what purpose is served by filling Category:Empty categories with no backlinks with category redirects. Those categories are supposed to be empty and to have no backlinks, so this amounts to categorising them as "all OK" ... which seems pointless.

In July, this was raised at User talk:QEDK#Category_redirects (permalink)by @Mclay1. There were two replies from QEDK, who could offer no explanation for the utility of this category beyond It's for housekeeping[1], which tells us nothing. Exactly what "housekeeping" is facilitated by this category?

Anyway with the CFD open I was very surprised to see that the bot has still been running. The CFD was notified to QEDK at 18:27, 9 August 2020 [2] by UnitedStatesian ... yet 2 minutes later, at 18:20, QEDKbot made its first edit[3] for two hours ... and in total, it has so far made 207 edits since the CFD opened. (see contribs list)

When the category's future is being discussed, it seems perverse for a bot to continue to populate it. At best that's WP:RECKLESS; at worst it's a bit WP:FAIT.

So I have two requests:

1. Please can the bot's authorisation be revoked for now, without prejudice to any future new authorisation if there is community consensus that this bot serves some useful purpose?
2. Please can all deletions by QEDKbot be reviewed, and any category redirects restored. I see for example that on 27 Feb 2020, the bot deleted Category:Fianna Fail leadership elections, which I presume was a redirect to Category:Fianna Fáil leadership elections; if not, it should have been a redirect. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, @BrownHairedGirl:, I of course endorse both your requests, and would add a third:

3. That no reauthorization be given until the operator demonstrates that a page loggging all its CSD tagging is fully functional, to facilitate review of any deletions, of the sort requested in 2. above or otherwise, by non-administrators such as myself and User:BrownHairedGirl. UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that third point, @UnitedStatesian. On top of the general problem of the bot being pointless, it lacks transparency. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:51, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

After my brief conversation about the bot with QEDK, I still don't understand the point of tagging category redirects, for the same reasons BrownHairedGirl pointed out. To me, it seems like the creator of the bot misunderstood the function of category redirects. They do not serve the same purpose as regular redirects, and they should have no backlinks. The category redirect function should be removed regardless of whether the bot serves some other useful function. M.Clay1 (talk) 02:55, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@BrownHairedGirl: A lot of misleading accusations here and there. So, let me address them in order:

• Re: no community consensus The bot was advertised at AN because it was an adminbot, it received quite a few comments on the BRFA w.r.t. its feasability - and a lot of the points were discussed and implemented.
• Re: why only category redirects? I have explained this multiple times that I need more time to actually make the bot work with other kinds of categories, and that category redirects were simply for demonstration. I have university and a part-time job, how easy is it to write programs in the time that's left?
• Re: no transparency How is this bot any different from other bots? ClueBot's all edits are found in its contribution, same with QEDKbot. MusikBot's protection actions are found in its protection logs. If you want to see what edits QEDKbot makes, see contributions, if you want to see deletions, see the Deletion logs. Even then, I still had written the code - I simply didn't get enough time to test it and it was buggy.
• Re: category redirects don't have backlinks Except they do. And the point of keeping them lying around is so that we can preserve the ones with some usage. In fact, a lot of them have a lot of backlinks (feel free to write a script and check this), the ones with no backlinks are basically pointless (in most cases, but in some cases, not).
• Re: bad deletions The bot only deletes categories in narrow circumstances, in the only example cited, the category was tagged by the owner and stated to be "created in error", so the point is moot.

That's all. --qedk (t 愛 c) 07:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@QEDK:

1. feasibility ≠ desirability
   Yes, the bot does work. But that doesn't mean that the functionality is wanted or needed..
2. if categorising the redirects is simply for demonstration ... the you have demonstrated that the bot can do something with then. Demo over.
   Lack of time to create useful functionality is not grounds for running bot with no utility.
3. On transparency, UnitedStatesian has explained the problem several times
4. On the purpose of category redirects, you clearly have views on their utility ... but there is no sign that you have ever attempted to seek consensus for your view. You should not be running a bot in pursuit of a personal view for which you cannot demonstrate a clear consensus. Basically, this bot is preparing the ground for deletion of category redirects ... and there is no consensus for that.
   Also, note that your stated desire the delete category redirects contradicts your earlier statement about the redirects just being a demo.
   Your statement that the ones with no backlinks are basically pointless is alarming, because it shows a severe misunderstanding of how category redirects work and how they are used.
   • A category redirect which has no backlinks but is navigated by dozen of readers every day, is in your view basically pointless. That is perverse.
   • A category redirect which has no backlinks but is used by editors to categorise articles, is your view basically pointless. That is also perverse.
     Do you even know how category redirects help to categorise articles? If the editor is using WP:HOTCAT, then HOTCAT will automatically resolve the redirect before saving. And if the category is added by editing the wikicode, and HotCat isn't around to fix it, then User:RussBot will pick it up and fix it: see User:RussBot/category redirect log. Your intended removal of category redirects will break both HotCat and RussBot's functionality. There are thousands of category redirects which exist to resolve variations in language or typography, e.g, Category:Sinn Fein→Category:Sinn Féin or Category:German-Turkish relations→Category:Germany–Turkey relations ... but your only measure of their utility is backlinks which have not yet been fixed. That ignore readers and editors who use the redirects to navigate and to categorise pages.
     Similarly the ~14,500 redirects between the ENGVAR spelling variations of organisation/organization. The vast majority of them have no backlinks, but your seem oblivious to the consensus to mass-create them: see WT:CATP#Organi[SZ]ations_category_redirects (permalink).

You have clearly done a fine job on the programming. But I am annoyed to find that is really all about your desire to pave the way for mass deletion of category redirects, because you didn't state that goal upfront, let alone seek consensus for it. That is no basis for a bot, let alone one which is adding otherwise pointless categories to redirects. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:32, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by mass deletion? The bot doesn't delete even one category redirect, it's up to another administrator. I don't think you understand, because I said they are G6-able, not that they should be G6-ed. And I very clearly stated, "most" of them are basically pointless as is demonstrated by the handful of pageviews that most of category redirects get, so your counterpoint is baseless because I am generalizing and you are cherry-picking. I have no intention on removal at all, in fact, I think you're really misconstruing my suggested actions as something I intend to do. And you go on and on about category redirects but don't really understand that what the bot does is fundamentally different from your claims. I didn't seek consensus for mass deletion of category redirects because the bot does not do that, is that not simple enough to get? I have no issue with category redirects being around but some of them serve no use and that usage can be tracked with backlinks to some extent, that's it. --qedk (t 愛 c) 08:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Grrrr. No, I am not misconstruing your actions. Your bot is not pulling the trigger, but you are making the hitlist for a pattern of deletions which you desire but for which you have not sought consensus. Despite being repeatedly asked both here and at CFD, you have not identified any utility for this bot other than creating that hitlist.

And I understand perfectly well what the bot does: it adds category redirects to your hitlist.

However, you still clearly do not understand the purpose and uses of category redirects, because backlinks are the least significant of their four main purposes. It just happens to be a usage which the bot can measure, but a little bit of logic shows that it is a completely bonkers, naive measure: if there are dozens of links to the redirects, and one or two new ones are added every few weeks, then when somebody cleans them all up your bot will see no backlinks and add the redirect to your kill list. A week, when someone creates another link, the redirect will be gone. We don't remove article redirects just because they don't currently have a hardcoded incoming link, and there is no basis for removing category redirects on that basis. Desired deletions of article redirects are discussed at WP:RFD, and category redirects at WP:CFD .... but you have decided to bypass the consensus-building processes at CFD, and instead create a hitlist for misuse of WP:G6. If you want category redirects to be culled in this way, then the proper way to do it is to open an WP:RFC. Instead you made a bot request to implement your kill list without even notifying WP:CATP. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:11, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What "hitlist"? Can you demonstrate that this "hitlist" has had mass deletions? If you have no evidence for this why are you choosing this sensationalistic wording? I've explained the rationale multiple times (and it was done at the BRFA as well) so me not identifying any utility is your perception, not fact. You seem to quite interesting in translating a tracking category into a "kill" list but forget that administrators could choose to delete them anyway (and anyone could nominate them at CFD), the bot doesn't do anything other than "track" potentially useless categories. I have no interest in "culling" and I suggest you drop that narrative. No one is saying that they have to be removed, but that some of them can be - and that seems to be nuance you're missing. I've already stated that tagging beyond category redirects and logging are feasible, and will be done, I don't see what else I can do here. --qedk (t 愛 c) 09:37, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

QEDK, please stop this evasion, and please own your own words. You have made it very clear that A) the ones with no backlinks are basically pointless (in most cases, and that B) they can be deleted by G6. So it is entirely clear that the whole purpose of this bot is making a hitlist to cull redirects. You have now made your goal crystal clear (which you didn't do at the grossly under-notified BRFA), and your attempt to cast that as my "narrative" or "perception" is a viciously nasty response: it's gaslighting. Please conduct yourself much better. I have seen this pattern before: -manipulation of consensus-formation (by woefully inadequate notification and lack of upfront clarity about goals) and then a belated admissson of the real goal followed by an attempt at gaslighting the objectors, It is very nasty stuff; please stop it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:02, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quit the virtue-signalling. The very person you're against, speaking out against you is a standard expectation, it's not gaslighting - and again, quit the sensationalism, this is a collaborative environment, not your primetime American talk show. You keep saying goals being made "crystal clear" and what not but have no evidence for any such mass deletion, what are you on about? The BRFA had 14 unique editors which is at at the higher end for a BRFA, and you call it manipulation of consensus, so I don't know what your words are supposed to mean. You also seem to suggest a pattern, so maybe you can point out the pattern for the visitors to this page? And I know you're quite into labelling detractors as gaslighters and what not, but using that word in such a minor context just takes away from the actual roots of the word, based in emotional abuse and gender inequality - which is not what any respectable editor in this community should do. --qedk (t 愛 c) 11:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A shameful response. This is indeed a collaborative environment, which is why I am horrified at your manipulative conduct.

Yes, the BRFA had 14 editors ... but it didn't have any of the editors who do most of the consensus-building work on deleting categories and developing guidelines... because you chose to ignore the instructions at WP:BRFA point I, 2nd bullet to

If your task could be controversial (e.g. most bots making non-maintenance edits to articles and most bots posting messages on user talk pages), seek consensus for the task in the appropriate forums. Common places to start include WP:Village pump (proposals) and the talk pages of the relevant policies, guidelines, templates, and/or WikiProjects.

You didn't notify the talk pages of the relevant policies, guidelines, templates, and/or WikiProjects, and you didn't ask anywhere for any help in finding such places. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@QEDK: Can you please explain what you think constitutes a useful category redirect? In my view, categories are only used to categorise pages; whether or not there are any other links to those categories is meaningless. With category redirects, there shouldn't ever be any pages in them, and unless there's been a discussion about them, there probably won't be any links either. As I understand it, they're used to prevent duplicate categories and aid searches. Very few category redirects are just bad misspellings in the way many article redirects are. They're not automatically created from page moves. They're made deliberately. M.Clay1 (talk) 13:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly possible that they are useful and it's also quite plausible that they are not, and having a backlink doesn't automatically consitute usefulness automatically but rather serves to prove that an unlikely redirect that has no backlinks is quite possibly not worth keeping around. Not all of them are created deliberately though and even the ones that are, might not be worth keeping around. A category is only as useful as the members it contains, we have C1 for categories that don't, but it's quite possible that some categories could be exempted from that which shouldn't be, that's as simple as creating pointless redirects from А to A (the former is a Cyrillic A) to something like Category:All deaths that have occurred in 2020 which is a long-winded name for a category that already exists and these would be exempted from C1 because they are redirects, but if they have no backlinks and this is checked by a bot, deletion of such categories is much easier to handle - especially because a lot of the categories we presently have are permanently empty and it's impossible to determine if all of them should be kept so anything that makes clean up easier has a rationale to be around, and none of this is mass deletion because an administrator will still have to review the category of their own volition at CfD/CSD before deleting it. This tracking category serves only to be an indicator of (non-)usefulness of an empty category, category redirects are but a small aspect of it. --qedk (t 愛 c) 14:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't see how it makes it easier. If we're saying that having no backlinks makes a category redirect more likely to be useless (which I disagree with), on top of all the false positives and false negatives of that logic, there will be so many redirects tagged that no one is going to go through them all to check. Most of them will have no consensus to delete. It's much better to just nominate individual redirects as you find them. As you say, no category redirects are valid under C1 because they're supposed to be empty (and we have bots to automatically move any pages placed in them), so under what criteria would a "pointless" category redirect be nominated for deletion? I can't see how they could be deleted in any way other than a regular deletion discussion, and I can't see how the bot is making that easier. Do you have an example of a category redirect with a backlink that isn't from a discussion about it? I can see how it might be useful for empty categories that aren't redirects, though surely it would be much better to just track that and not have the tracking category polluted by all the redirects (which will greatly outnumber any others). But how many empty categories that aren't redirects are there? Don't we already have bots for patrolling that? There are a few tracking categories that are sometimes empty, but they are useful and are highly unlikely to have no backlinks. M.Clay1 (talk) 14:21, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mclay1: It was in the works and I pushed it today, so it's no longer exclusive to category redirects. And even though we have around 92k category redirects, only around 50k seem to have no backlinks. So, clearly there is a disparity and the "no category redirects have backlinks" claim is false if so many don't. --qedk (t 愛 c) 15:44, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's quite extraordinary that after all the discussion on this page and at CFD, QEDK still persists in the false notion that a category redirect with no backlinks is somehow a problem which needs to be categorised. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's also quite extraordinary that when there are two current discussions in which all participants oppose the bot's work, QEDK's response is not to pause the bot and seek consensus ... but instead to expand the scope of the bot's work. That is not compatible with the instructions at WP:BOTISSUE that Bot operators are expected to be responsive to the community's concerns and suggestions. The collabrorative way to respond to objections is to pause and discuss ... but QEDK has chosen to do the exact opposite, by engaging a higher gear.

There are currently 53,145 pages in Category:Empty categories with no backlinks, of which https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=17146842 finds that 53,018 are category redirects. So 99.76% of the the contents Category:Empty categories with no backlinks are redirects, which shouldn't have backlinks. This is a useless set: it would be massively more useful to simply make a list of the 127 pages which are not redirects. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was demonstrating that the functions previously requested by Liz and US were dealt with. I was planning to disable it once I could demonstrate that, so I will be disabling it shortly. As I've stated before, it isn't a problem but it's being tracked because it could be an indication of a problem. The point of contention differs between all of you on the bot and category. That's not consensus but I understand the sentiment anyway. --qedk (t 愛 c) 17:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• If I understand correctly, the bot has been revised to exclude redirects, so that we will get the list of 127 pages. It may be worthwhile to wait and have a look what these 127 pages actually are. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:01, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope that the changes will lead to creating a list, rather than the category. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:39, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just spotted that at 14:27, 22 August 2020‎, the bot added[4] to Category:Empty categories with no backlinks, even though it is a disambiguation category.

https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=17167124 shows that there are 441 categories which are in both Category:Empty categories with no backlinks and Category:Disambiguation categories -- presumably all added by the bot.

Note that at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/QEDKbot, WEDK pledged that: "If the category is tagged with {{Db-c1}}, {{Possibly empty category}}, {{Disambiguation category}}, {{Cfd full}} (Cf* to be accurate) or its redirecting templates, it will skip the page."

It isn't doing that: see also User talk:QEDK#please_fix_your_bot

I am pleased to see that QEDK says they have shut off this wretched disruptive bot ... but it seems very clear that it is not being competently run. Even if QEDK can't made the code work, they should at least be checking the bot's actions so that they spot these errors yourself ... and then fix them. Instead, nearly 36 hours later, these 441 errors are un-noticed and unfixed.

At 12:23 on 21 August, QEDK said[5] that the bot had been revised to stop placing category redirects in Category:Empty categories with no backlinks, but too has not happened: https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=17167197 shows that 53349 category redirects are still in Category:Empty categories with no backlinks, which is over half of the 97,802 categories in Category:Wikipedia soft redirected categories.

This beaches at least two counts of WP:BOTACC:

1. "Bot accounts should not be used for contributions that do not fall within the scope of the bot's designated tasks."
2. "In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly"

Please BAG, can you just revoke this bot's authorisation? There is no consensus to support its declared actions, the bot owner is failing to:

1. make the bot work within its remit
2. check the bot's edits
3. fix the bot's prolific errors

Pinging some WP:BAG members. @TheSandDoctor, Headbomb, Xaosflux, and Primefac: please stop this bot. If it creates any more mischief, I will take this to ANI to ask for the bot to be blocked. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The bot has not edited for almost two days. There is no need to have the bot blocked. I haven't had a chance to look into this too deeply, but I will say that just from a quick skim there seems to be an inordinate amount of vitriol being thrown around. I know it's a subject certain editors are passionate about, but it's also part of the reason why I've wanted to see how things shook out before diving in. Primefac (talk) 00:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

After review here, I see no grounds to revoke or even amend the scope of QEDKbot. QEDK shut the bot down while he investigates an issue with its behaviour. This is responsible bot owner behaviour. You don't get to ask for a block, jumping ahead in the steps outlined at WP:BOTISSUE, simply because a bot operator has a different schedule than yours. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:12, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I concur with the above points by Headbomb and Primefac. Please review WP:BOTISSUE prior to making such requests. At this point in time, I am going to say that that request is  Denied under current circumstances. Bringing this to ANI requesting a block is certainly within your choice, but I would recommend against it at this time. --TheSandDoctor ^Talk 04:20, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@TheSandDoctor, Headbomb, and Primefac: the problem here is that QEDK promised to fix the bot to remove the ~50,000 category redirects from Category:Empty categories with no backlinks. Instead of doing that, QEDK set the bot off on a spree of adding further pages to a category which is up or deletion at CFD, including the cat dab pages ... and did not remove the category redirects. QEDK's statement below that they have identified the issue and fixed the code does not state what the revised code is intended to do. Will it untag the category redirects? Will it untag the cat dabs? QEDK gives no clarity.

There is also not commitment from QEDK to monitor the bot's operation: the flaws so far have been detected by others, not by the bot owner.

This wretched bot was approved without proper community consensus, and it is clearly running in experimental mode across the whole set of categories. Even if BAG is still happy to overlook the lack of community consensus for this bot's actions, it should not have gotten past trial stage until those issues had been resolved. And on top of that, the bot owner fails to communicate with clarity. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just a few thoughts, and I genuinely am not trying to dump it all on you but I still haven't had an opportunity to really dig into the substance of the initial concern and all that has been posted here; I'm just replying to your latest statement. First, I seem to recall that the bot does not need to untag the categories in the "no backlinks" category, because when the CFD closes as "delete" a different bot will handle the orphaning. Second, you keep saying essentially "no one knew this bot existed, and it was approved lightning fast without any trial." It did go to trial (twice!) with 140 edits made to categories, and the process took four months from time of first trial to time of acceptance. As far as the "gotten past trial" comment re: the BRFA, every single time someone said "what about..." or "this is broken" the issues were dealt with; that's why we do trials (and second trials) in the first place.

Again, I'm literally just replying to your last comment, and I totally understand your frustration, but it's starting to sound like a reasonable issue is being blown out of proportion (though I do understand the juxtaposition of saying "reasonable" matched with 50k potentially problematic edits, more that it's a single issue). I'll do my best to take a proper look at this later today and give my full thoughts further down the page. Primefac (talk) 10:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Primefac. The issue here is that more 50% of all en.wp's category redirects have been tagged with a category whose stated purpose is that they have a flaw which may merit speedy deletion per WP:G6 ... even though the alleged flaw is in fact an indication of a healthy category redirect. That is a real biggie: a potentially massive amount of damage to the category tree, which would have devastating effect on the ability of editors to accurately categorise articles. And since G6 requires no prior notification, the bot's tagging of the categories may be the last warning before deletion.

That's why I am so concerned about this ... and the reason I am angry about it is that the bot owner is repeatedly deceptive, evasive and gaslighting (if needed, I will provide multiple diffs to support each of those assertions). Quite the most unpleasant bot owner I have encountered since the dark days of BetaCommand, and I have no doubt at all that their appalling handling of objections is alone enough to leaves them totally unfit to run a bot, even w/o considering the other factors.

The underlying issue is that there is no consensus for the bot's purpose, because no category-related page was notified, so most editors who work on categories did not know about it (I didn't spot it until the category was at CFD). QEDK has explained that they were unaware of any relevant pages ... which, if true, would mean that they were unaware of WT:CFD, WT:CATP, WT:CSD, WT:OC. I find that highly implausible (an admin who doesn't even know that one of the XFDs exists?), but in the unlikely event that it is true, it was QEDK's responsibility to ask "where should I leave notices to catch the attention of editors specifically interested in categories". QEDK did not do that, and instead claims hilariously that he did due diligence. Sorry, but dunno + didn't ask ≠ due diligence.

With respect, I think you made a rare misjudgement (I truly do mean rare) in authorising the bot without any notifications on category-specific pages, let alone any prior discussions there. Compare and contrast with the extensive discussion at WT:CATP on pre-proposal of BHGbot 6 and pre-proposal of BHGbot 7. Editors there do play close attention to bot proposals, if asked ... but in this case there were not asked. And one of the things that really annoys me about this is that almost 100% of the work of WP:BHGbot 7 is now in the Category:Empty categories with no backlinks, which QEDK regards as mostly fit for deletion. In other words, massive consultation led to BHGbot 7's output; but a stealthy proposal may wipe it all.

As the CFD, yes, you're right, if the CFD is closed as delete, then all it pages will be removed from the category.

However, the CFD is still open after 15 days, and even tho the !voters are 100% delete, a potential closer faces an unusual dilemma: how to weigh the apparent contrast between the CfD !votes and the fact that the BRFA was approved? How does this all fit with WP:LOCALCON? Any possible close there is problematic, because deleting the cat effectively kills the bot ... and not deleting the cat ignores the fact that at CFD, nobody backs the bot-owner.

AND QEDK has outright refused to remove the category redirects from the Category:Empty categories with no backlinks:[6] I will not be uncategorising category redirects because that does not fall within the remit of the bot's stated functions (and would thus be considered misuse of the bot)

That's why I think this is back in BAG's court. Revoking the bot authorisation allows the CFD to be closed. And a fresh BRFA at some future date, properly notified after pre-discussion, can consider whether there is consensus for any of the bots functions ... as well as whether this bot-owner is competent to run a bot.

But if BAG fails to revoke, then we will have a clash of two processes which will have to be escalated (to be clear, I will escalate if this isn't resolved, but I am unlikely to be alone). It seems to me to be vastly preferable to go back to the start and do the proper consensus-building rather than to plough ahead in an escalating drama. Sorry this has ended up so long. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

At least, you're now finally being honest about your intent here: but a stealthy proposal may wipe it all. If you were a tad bit more honest with your motive, I would have been much more perceptive, but again you only chose sensationalistic wording, personal attacks (whether this bot-owner is competent) and serial WP:ABF (stealthy). Again, no biggie but let's come to crux of your issue, which seems to be a two-pronged false equivalence - the first is the notion that what the bot is doing is to wipe out 100% of your bot's work, that's quite untrue, if you'd like, I can run the bot and give you statistics in a month or two showing exactly that this hidden "agenda" you suggest, does not exist. Secondly, about disruption of the category tree - keep in mind that it's one top-level category with several thousand sub-categories, that means that this is quite simple addition and an addition that is very simple to revert or carry out, so your framing of it as a disruption is either deliberate or a misjudgement, either way, wrong. I find it laughable (in lines of my "hilarity") that posting to WP:AN cannot be construed as due diligence when 1) it's an adminbot, 2) AN gets ~125x of the traffic that WP:CATP does. Even theoretically speaking, there was a higher chance of receiving opposition from AN than CATP - in fact, if it was posted to CATP, it would render it as a WP:LOCALCON due to its low reach but AN is a centralized noticeboard and is thus, relevant for community consensus. At the very least, I hope you have the decency to WP:AGF when I claim to be unaware instead of mocking editors (apart from the WP:ABF) for not knowing about niché projects, it's a very basic expectation from editors in a collaborative environment. --qedk (t 愛 c) 21:33, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@QEDK: you are again behaving like a vile, gaslighting thug. You allegations of dishonesty are false and unfouded.

I have been upfront all long about my motive to halt your process of tagging good category redirects with a view to speedy deletion, just because they are empty (as catedirs) should be and have no backlinks.

Your comment that my framing of it as a disruption is either deliberate or a misjudgement, either way, wrong is just more of your persistent mendacity. You were entirely clear at BRFA that the purpose of categorising redirects in this way is to facilitate their deletion;[7] this category is basically to track categories that basically have no utility and now editors can choose to trawl through them and identify categories no longer needed and tag/delete them ... so accusing me of being disshonest for objecting o that is pure gaslighting. Vile, scummy conduct.

Your choice to laugh at the lack of consensus is also despicable. For about the 5th time, I remind you yet again that WP:BRFA requires that you notify the talk pages of the relevant policies, guidelines, templates, and/or WikiProjects.. You did not do that, and as a result you failed to alert many of the editors most interested in this issue. I did not mock you for not knowing about niché projects; I criticised you for your failure to ask for help in identifying those pages. And I criticise you for your dishonesty in claiming that your "didn't know, didn't ask" stance amounted to due diligence. It was in fact zero diligence.

You were of course right to notify WP:AN, but per WP:BRFA, that should have been in addition to notifying the category discussion pages, not a substitute for them ... so your comment about WP:LOCALCON is just another step in the long series of QEDK fabrications. That lack of broad consensus for this bot is why the discussion at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 9#Category:Empty_categories_with_no_backlinks has 100% support for deleting the category.

There is clear evidence that the BRFA lacked consensus. If there was actually a consensus for this bot's operation, then there would not also be 100% support at CFD for the deletion of the category which it populates.

Given you systematic mendacity and persistent gaslighting, I am long past the point of AGF on anything you say. As I have said to you numerous times, I find it highly implausible that as an admin you were unaware of the existence of at some of the relevant talk pages: e.g. WT:CFD and WT:CSD. However, even in the unlikely event that this was true, you simply needed to ask where to post notification to attract the attention of editors interested in categories. But you chose not to ask, which was a crucial failure of due diligence that should have been picked up by BAG at the outset, and certainly before approval.

If you were acting in good faith, you would at this point say something to the effect that in hindsight you screwed up the notifications, and as a result the bot's actions are opposed by a number of editors who were unaware of the BRFA, and as a result the category which the bot populates is likely to be deleted. You would thank the objectors and acknowledge that this needs further discussion, and you would suspend operation of the bot pending the outcome of widely-notified discussion.

But you have not done that. Instead you have repeatedly stonewalled, deceived, bullied and gaslighted those who object. You have deleted evidenced criticism of the bot's malfunctions. You have failed to answer simple questions. You have given highly misleading replies. and you have continued to run the bot. Those repeated breaches of WP:BOTCOMM are why I concluded that you are in fact acting in complete bad faith, and that you are deliberately WP:GAMING the system by pushing ahead with a bot whose approval was clearly flawed rather than stepping back and seeking clear consensus. And I am horrified that BAG has not put a stop to this, by requiring that the bot be stopped until consensus is clear. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Per my reply to Trappist on my TP, I've identified the issue and fixed the code. --qedk (t 愛 c) 06:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]