Hello, I am involved in creating articles in dams manually (not bot), most of them are stubs. Currently, I am working for Japanese dam. I am starting this discussion to get community consensus to create dam stubs around the world. For information, there is a separate wiki project on dams. Best! nirmal (talk) 01:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you nirmal for opening this. For context, I asked them to do so based on WP:MASSCREATE after noticing they were engaged the good faith creation of large numbers (slightly over 1000) of similar articles on dams based on a single source, damnet. These articles take the following form:

NAME (Japanese: JAPANESE NAME) is a TYPE dam located in LOCATION in Japan. The dam is used for PURPOSE. The catchment area of the dam is AREA km². The dam impounds about AREA ha of land when full and can store SIZE thousand cubic meters of water. The construction of the dam was started on YEAR and completed in YEAR.

A few examples can be seen at Yukiyagawa Dam, Yanagawa Dam (Iwate, Japan), and Bicchuji-ike Dam.

I am not certain certain whether such creations, as opposed to inclusion in a list, are beneficial to the reader, particularly since I am not convinced that all of them meet WP:GNG - I note there is no presumed notability for dams, per WP:GEOFEAT. As such, I am hoping the community will discuss this and decide whether to endorse their continued creation in this manner. BilledMammal (talk) 03:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would definitely invite WP:DAMS to the discussion. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 03:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. BilledMammal (talk) 05:06, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Before we get too deep into a discussion on the merits of geostubs, I feel it might be worth noting that I am inclined to a positive (or at worst neutral) view on the subjects, having procedurally written a number stubs based on database entries for islands in California. This was how I created Chain Island, Tinsley Island, Bull Island (California), Kimball Island, Joice Island, Island No. 2, Russ Island, Atlas Tract, Empire Tract, Brewer Island, Spud Island, Hog Island (San Joaquin County), Tule Island, Headreach Island, Bradford Island, Van Sickle Island, and Hooks Island. All of these articles are now Good Articles. I also did so for a number of islands in Michigan (Fordson Island, Stony Island, Fox Island, and Powder House Island). All of these are GAs as well, with the exception of Powder House Island, which lost its GA designation when it became a Featured Article. jp×g 04:53, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

-A similar approach was used to create some of the individual articles of List of gaunpalikas of Nepal and members of parliaments of Nepal. nirmal (talk) 07:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support creation of such articles. They can always be expanded later, as Jpxg points out above. NemesisAT (talk) 09:40, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

nirmal, what is your intent for the scope of these creations? Do you intend to create articles on every dam listed in that index, or is it only a subset? BilledMammal (talk) 11:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to nirmal for opening this. My opinion is that it would be better to have these be lists of dams (or maybe a table), rather than individual pages, if the pages are going to consist of the five-sentence template quoted above. List of dams in Japan is too long, but I think it could be split into regional lists, and the list entries can have all of the information currently contained in the stubs. For example, it seems to me everything currently contained in articles like Ameyama Dam and Gokamura-ike Dam could be included in two rows in a table in List of dams in Aichi Prefecture. The individual pages could become redirects, and then if somebody wanted to expand the article on a particular dam, they could easily do that (and then link to it on the list/table). Levivich (talk) 03:06, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if independent articles on dams are always the best idea if there are already articles on the lakes they sustain. I'd also advise gearing this towards dams that do more than simply hold water (something more important like a hydroelectric dam would be preferable). Bicchuji-ike Dam is a mound of packed dirt which helps area farmers. I doubt its notability unless WP:GNG is eventually demonstrated. -Indy beetle (talk) 08:00, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

-Note that almost all of them are large dams.nirmal (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I have in the past thanked Nirmaljoshi for their work on these articles, but also asked him/her to slow down a bit and take care to link new articles to Wikidata or existing articles in other languages, which they have not yet done. I agree that improving the existing list articles would be a good idea, and I stand ready to help. List of dams in Saga Prefecture might be a reasonable example of what can be done quite easily using existing data. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:36, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I would like to thank nirmal for coming here. Every other editor who has mass-created articles has refused even to acknowledge that we had a policy on mass creation, or that any consultation at all was needed before creating huge numbers of articles.

My question to Nirmal is this: why not just use a bot? Wouldn’t it make far more sense to do so than trying to do this stuff by hand? I mean, I’m not a programming genius but I think using excel/Notepad++ I could populated a whole bunch of templates with the requisite data in one go.

All of this WP:MEATBOT stuff would be much better if it were just done automatically. FOARP (talk) 21:28, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FOARP: Thanks for asking. Actually, I find pleasure to check the size of dams and imagine the age when it was constructed etc. Bot will take away that emotional parts :P . Having said that, I use a locally running python script to gather data. nirmal (talk) 04:53, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At worst, these dams should all exist as blue links, with a redirect to information about the dam in either a list or the adjacent lake article, right? And there's been no dispute over correctness of the information? So this is an introduction of new, reliably sourced information into the English Wikipedia on a topic we underrepresent (Japan), and turning red links into blue. From perusing List of dams and reservoirs in the United States and Category:Dams in the United States by state, it seems roughly inline for us to have articles on dams of this nature. I'm inclined to say that these mass creations are appropriate. — Bilorv (talk) 22:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your point about parity, but looking at the US dams, not every dam has a stand-alone article, instead they are listed in lists of dams-by-state. From a quick glance at the Alabama dams, the ones that do have stand-alone articles have multiple sections or at least several paragraphs of prose. I think Japanese dams should be similarly organized, but that would mean not creating short stand-alone pages for every dam, and instead having lists of dams-by-prefecture (or some other regional subdivision). Levivich 23:29, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As discussed above, I started splitting List of dams in Japan into separate articles by prefecture, but Fram has moved these into draft space which has broken all the links from List of dams in Japan. I intend to revert these moves shortly, but just letting people know — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

These were moved to draft because they were Wikidata lists, not lists with local content. That this has broken links is not a reason to have these, and reinstating such lists which were disallowed per RfC is not a wise move. Fram (talk) 12:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is irresponsible to leave other artivles in a broken state. By the way I would be interested to see a link to an exact RfC by which you are claiming this consensus. As explained on the AfD this has nothing to do with ListeriaBot. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:04, 4 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The link to the RfC has been provided at the AfD. And redlinks in an article is not the same as "leaving articles in a broken state". What any of this has to do with the bot noticeboard is also not clear. Fram (talk) 11:18, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• I suggest a more technical guideline for inclusion or exclusion, instead of deciding subjectively. Having worked in dam and electricity related articles for long, I think I have good understanding on which dams should be included or and which should not. I suggest the followings:

- Include dams that are defined as large dam by ICOLD. Because this is the most renowned body in the dam world, I think no one will disagree with their regulations. They have clear guidelines as listed here. By applying this rule most of the tiny dams will be excluded automatically. For example, among 92,017 dams of USA (Ref:https://nid.usace.army.mil/#/), if we apply filter of height>=50ft(15m) critera only 6853 will qualify to be included in the list.

- Any smaller dams can be included if it has extensive coverage and passes GNG.

- Also I would like to clear some misundersding (or shortsighteness) in the above discussion. ① Lay Dam、for example, is in the state of stub since 2012. The stubs I have been creating are of similar nature. ②I think the pile of 20 m high (7 stories high) and 100 m (football field) dirt is surely notable. I plan to add more sources. Note that, the older the dam, its difficult to get sources in mass media. Excuse me for that.

Best regards!nirmal (talk) 07:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

English Wikipedia has had many problems with mass creation of stubs. Just because other stubs exist (and I am not speaking of your efforts) doesn't mean that we should proceed with automated creation. If there is merit, base it on your own work and potential output. Izno (talk) 01:57, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please opine. This is a follow up to Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/BHGbot 9 and Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 16#BHGbot 9 review sought. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 01:07, 16 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note that both RFCs were disruptive revenge exercises, and were speedily closed as such.

They were both opened by Headbomb out of pique that my work had not been derailed by Headbomb's multiply-abusive antics at WP:Bots/Requests for approval/BHGbot 9, and by BAG's disgraceful endorsement of those antics at WP:Bots/Noticeboard/Archive 16#BHGbot 9 review sought.

It's long past time for BAG to eject Headbomb, and to take a long hard look at what led it to repeatedly endorsed his antics. There are some great people on BAG, but collectively BAG was unable to see some severe problems. For example:

1. Nobody in BAG could even see a problem in a BAG member describing 100 lines of bot code as dumb as a brick. That was patently false, and its only purpose was to try to insult and humiliate the editor who had written the code.
2. Nobody in BAG saw a problem in Headbomb's decision to spurn my request for further input, by bombarding the discussion and the closing it before any further input was offered.
3. Nobody in BAG saw any problem in Headbomb's aggressive disdain for WP:CLEANUPTAG

That's only the start of it: a full list of the misconduct by Headbomb would run to several pages. But either of items 1 & 2 above should have been enough for the rest of BAG to suspend Headbomb and intervene to restore proper, civil scrutiny of BRFAs. BAG members should be utterly ashamed of the fact that BAG instead endorsed such misconduct. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:25, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"disruptive revenge exercises" No, they were not (and revenge for what even?). You were repeatedly told so, and you repeatedly assume bad faith of everyone involved. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 11:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not true, Headbomb. You repeatedly told me that, and your atrocious track record on this issue makes your statements worthless.

Nobody else at VPM endorsed your actions. Absolutely nobody. Nada, zilch, zero, nothing. An involved editor speedily closed those revenge RFCs.

And as I told you before, your bogus RFCs were clearly opened as revenge for my disclosure that your abuse of BRFA had not prevented me from using much the same code to removw ~10,000 redundant cleanup banners over 8 months, with no objections or concerns from anyone at all ... at least until you objected at VPM, where you were supported by nobody.

And no, I do not repeatedly assume bad faith of everyone involved. I assume bad faith only of you, because of your long history of it.

Your record is clear, and you are utterly shameless. I see no reason to expect that you will mend your ways, but I have some small sliver of hope that other BAG members will call time on your bullying antics in pursuit of your personal hobbyhorse. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:08, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

PS for the record, here is the point at which I realised that I could no longer sustain any assumption of good faith in Headbomb's conduct towards me.

On 28/29 December 2021, Headbomb twice accused me twice[1][2] of seeking to kneecap Citation bot (CB). (The full discussion is most easily read in the archives at User talk:Citation_bot/Archive_30#Feature:_usurped_title: search the page for "kneecap" to find the relevant exchange).

Kneecapping is a severe form of malicious wounding, often used as torture. Its objective is to permanently disable the victim.

However, my proposal wrt CB was not to reduce the bot's capacity in any way. I merely proposed to postpone the addition of extra functionality to CB unless and until CB had the capacity to handle this big extra task.

So even as metaphor, Headmbomb's allegation was wholly misplaced: I proposed no wounding of CB, let alone a malicious wounding, and in no way anything intended as torture.

It was also highly offensive to equate my civil, reasoned objection with an act of violent torture. That was in no way whatsoever a civil or reasonable response: it was a form of hyperbolic smearing designed to deligitimise my concerns ... a more extreme version of Headbomb's use of aggressive hyperbole at BRFA, when he described my 100 lines of bot code as dumb as a brick.

In the CB case, there was an even nastier element to Headbomb's conduct. I am Irish (it's openly noted on my talk page), and kneecapping is a form of torture practised especially by the paramilitary groups which emerged in Northern Ireland during The Troubles, and still practised by some residual thugs. So for an Irish person, that is a particularly offensive allegation ... and given Headmbomb's history of aggressive bullying of me, I think it is possible that his choice of such a loaded and geographically-specific term was racially motivated.

But just as Headbomb has never in any way backed off from his three rounds of unfounded and unprovoked aggression towards me at BRFA, he has not in any way backed off from his smearing of me at User talk:Citation_bot/Archive_30#Feature:_usurped_title. Instead, he is here defending his disruption at VPM, and repeating his bogus denials.

I did try there to civilly explain to him why this language was completely out of order, but his response[3] was pure gaslighting: You really need to have a major WP:AGF/reality check.

8 months later, Headbomb remain unrepentant about that too.

Why on earth does WP:BAG still tolerate this vicious person on BAG pages, let alone retain him as a member of BAG and endorse his misconduct? BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:32, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Bot folks,

We have a category that many editors working in the AFC area check, Category:AfC G13 eligible soon submissions. It contains drafts and user pages that will become eligible for CSD G13 status in the next 30 days. Sometimes editors check the category to tag drafts when they become eligible, other times they "rescue" promising drafts that would otherwise be deleted. Typically, the total number of pages is around 3,000-5,000 drafts and user pages. The number can sometimes go down to 2,000 but the category always refills itself. We use to have a problem with the category becoming empty about a year or year and a half ago but I worked with ProcrastinatingReader and he had some way of making sure that the category periodically refilled.

Any way, there haven't been any problems with this category for a long time but I periodically check it and the category is down to 1,426 pages! We typically have 200-225 drafts expire each day so that isn't even a week's worth of pages. I went to ProcrastinatingReader's talk page but he has been away since May 2022. I'm not sure what he did to refill the category but I'm guessing it had something to do with bots categorizing drafts and I'm hoping someone here will know something or at least a good guess.

We do have a back-up system, SDZeroBot's lists, but some editors prefer to use this category because it has had the most up-to-date listing. Any ideas or fixes you can think of? Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:38, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proc was around two weeks ago (c.f. T314688) so they're not totally inactive, but I'm not sure what the best way to get in contact with them is. Legoktm (talk) 21:15, 18 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try emailing them. I think I was kind of a nuisance about this issue when it was a constant problem but everything has been working fine for over a year now. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:38, 21 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]