For example, on the pages for “Eating Disorders” and “Anorexia Nervosa” include a section about what hotlines and organizations are available for eating disorder treatment in predominantly English-speaking countries. It’s very likely that struggling individuals may come to wikipedia to learn more about what they’re dealing with, and how someone can access information about treatment is objectively relevant to the topic. Ju1c3machine (talk) 09:34, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm often one to call out "that's not what Wikipedia is for", but I actually agree. Considering it purely from the perspective of building an encyclopedia, treatment and how people seek it is a legitimate aspect of its coverage, and an article is incomplete without it. I'd also say that these sort of resources are relevant external links that would be appropriate to include at the bottom of their article—maybe even in their own subsection under external links if applicable. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Might be worth perusing a recent (2022) discussion on adding suicide hotline numbers to related articles, as it seems pertinent. Link to discussion Schazjmd (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One question is, who would be responsible/liable if a reader suffers harm from following a no-longer valid or malicious link from such a page? That is why we have disclaimers on pages about medical topics. Donald Albury 23:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If a link becomes invalid, how is that any different from other links being caught and updated by editors? Wiki isn't providing services so there's no liability issues- same as if the Yellow Pages contained a hotline that went out of order. Ju1c3machine (talk) 13:49, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How does one decide which organisations are worthy of having their hotlines mentioned? There are far too many organisations for these issues to include all of them and having to subjectively decide on them is bound to cause more problems than it is worth. Where would you even include it either, anywhere near the top would cause issues with those who simply want to read an article and if they're at the bottom they'd be quite useless. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists, it would be possible to be comprehensive. A list of several hundred short items is not unreasonable.

Within an article, editors should use the ordinary methods of determining article content. For example, what was the first or most historically important service? "____ became the first charity to offer helpline services via SMS texting" is appropriate encyclopedic content.

Second, once you look outside the suicide/crisis category, there are often very few of these services. For example, the US appears to have three hotlines for eating disorders: two general ones, and one specifically for insulin-dependent diabetics. That's it. The UK appears to have one. It would not be difficult to construct a sentence that says something like "In the UK, free support services, such as a helpline, are offered by the charity Beat". WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:50, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are more than 50 English speaking countries. Also having to choose which services are mentioned by name is obviously problematic, especially if it isn't already summarised in a secondary source. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, when seeing this, I was curious what other encyclopedias that exist in part/whole online do regarding this, so I went to a few to check. Let me preface this by saying I don't think it's a valid comparison to compare Wikipedia to a print encyclopedia for something like this, because we aren't ever complete and that's okay in part because we are online and perpetually being improved and updated. My opinion and analysis of policies/guidelines is after the list:

• Encyclopedia Brittanica - suicide suicide resource box on the side of the page, depression (psychology) crisis information within the first paragraph, no information on article "bipolar disorder", no information on article "schizophrenia".
• Encyclopedia.com - suicide basics discusses suicide hotlines existing but no specific links/numbers, depression again discusses their existence, and recommends checking "telephone books' [...] Community Service sections [... or] calling emergency services (911 in most places) but this is at the bottom of this long page. Has an article on "crisis intervention" that doesn't list specifics or how to find. Nothing on article "substance abuse". Of note, however, is that some of these articles have "resources" sections that do list specific phone numbers and/or websites for organizations providing hotlines.
• The Canadian Encyclopedia - suicide info at top of article, mental health nothing in article, but links to a couple hotlines in the external links section at bottom of page, Suicide among Indigenous Peoples in Canada info at top of article.

The biggest issue people have with us including them is "scope" or similar. These arguments necessarily reference what Wikipedia is not - either directly or through essays/etc. Relevant policies, guidelines, and essays that have been referenced before or likely to be referenced now are below - along with my analysis of why they don't preclude mental health information from being provided on pages:

• From WP:NOT: Advertising, marketing, publicity, or public relations... or issuing public service announcements - nobody's asking for "public service announcements" style of information. What people are asking for seems to be similar to what The Canadian Encyclopedia publishes on their articles directly about suicide. Also from WP:NOT: Simple listings without contextual information showing encyclopedic merit. Listings such as the white or yellow pages should not be replicated. - this is referencing actual lists that are not encyclopedically relevant, not what's being requested here.
• From WP:ADVOCACY: Wikipedia is first and foremost an encyclopedia which aims to create a breadth of high-quality, neutral, verifiable articles and to become a serious, respected reference work. - as shown above, many encyclopedias do publish resources as part of their encyclopedic mission. Also from Wikipedia:Advocacy § Identifying advocacy: Some editors come to Wikipedia with the goal of raising the visibility or credibility of a specific viewpoint. It may be a hypothesis which they feel has been unduly dismissed or rejected by the scientific community; it may be alternate or revisionist interpretation of a historical event or personage; it may be additions to an article about an organization to portray it in a positive or negative light. The essential problem is that these goals conflict with Wikipedia's mission. Wikipedia is not a venue to right great wrongs, to promote ideas or beliefs which have been ignored or marginalized in the Real World, or to be an adjunct web presence for an organization. Wikipedia cannot give greater prominence to an agenda than experts or reliable sources in the Real World have given it; the failure to understand this fundamental precept is at the root of most problems with advocacy on Wikipedia. - resource information is not advocacy by any definition. The only applicable part of this could be "an adjunct web presence for an organization", but even that doesn't really apply, since nobody is advocating for any specific organization to be represented, but general information. The potential for the resources to be used to advocate for specific organizations can be handled through guidelines on how the specific information displayed is to be selected, where it is to be displayed on the page, and carefully selecting which pages they do display on.
• No Righting Great Wrongs is also commonly referenced - but it doesn't apply here. You might think that Wikipedia is a great place to set the record straight and right great wrongs, but that is absolutely not the case. While we can record the righting of great wrongs, we can't actually "ride the crest of the wave" ourselves. - there is no "record" attempting to be "set... straight", and in fact, we wouldn't be "rid[ing] the crest of the wave ourselves". Many encyclopedias that are online include these resources already, and in fact many non-encyclopedia websites do too. We would be following, not leading, in that sense.
• The 5 pillars - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia - Wikipedia combines many features of general and specialized encyclopedias, almanacs, and gazetteers. - again, as showed above, encyclopedias do contain this sort of information sometimes.
• Wikipedia:No disclaimers - A disclaimer in a Wikipedia article is a statement or warning that the article is not appropriate, suitable, or guaranteed for some specified purpose. - again, not what's being requested here. While some may desire for these notices to include a statement about what is included in the article, that is not what the basis of this is about. Again, see The Canadian Encyclopedia - a simple statement To reach the Canada Suicide Prevention Service, contact 1-833-456-4566. would suffice, even without the first sentence they include about the content of the article.
• Wikipedia:External links - External links normally should not be placed in the body of an article. Nobody is proposing they be placed in the body of the article, but instead in a header or infobox style. And to note, infoboxes already allow external links in them, so there's a huge precedent for external links not being relegated to the bottom of the page when placing them at the top is more useful to our readers. Some acceptable external links include those that contain further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy. Pretty clear that this is "further research..." and is "other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in the article".
• Arguments are also made that the information may become outdated, become malicious, not work when a reader clicks them... but these sorts of arguments don't affect our ability to put other external links in articles, even in the infobox. As always, Wikipedia is never finished, and these notices could be crafted in a way that allows (trusted) editors to update them when necessary. And that's actually the benefit of an online, everyone-can-edit encyclopedia over a print one - a print encyclopedia would not be able to be updated on the spot if/when resources change. Hence why I do not think comparing us to print encyclopedias here is reasonable - because they do have this as a valid reason to not put information into their print versions.
• Last thing I'll address in these bullet points is the question of liability that Donald Albury brings up above. To make a slight correction, we do not have disclaimers on medical articles - but the reason we don't is the general disclaimer at the bottom of every page on the wiki. We also have the medical specific disclaimer, but that isn't actually linked directly from the bottom bar, and per our guidelines on disclaimers, shouldn't be linked in specific articles either. If those disclaimers suffice to protect us from liability from pages that explicitly detail current medical practice, and even more so, pages like crisis hotline, rape, suicide, and more to have external links to, phone numbers for, information about, and images that reference them now... then those same disclaimers will protect us if the same information is presented in a different manner/place on the page. If this sort of proposal is further developed, it would be prudent to confirm with legal the wording/etc to ensure they're aware - but they've really never prior regulated the wording of content in that sort of way.

To be quite honest, this is a stylistic decision, and only a stylistic decision. Not an issue of whether it's encyclopedic or not, because other online encyclopedias do include this information at least sometimes (and again, we follow, not lead). Not an issue of whether a link would violate our policy on external links, because such links would meet the three criteria listed there: Is the site content accessible to the reader? Is the site content proper in the context of the article (useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.)? Is the link functioning and likely to remain functional? (emphasis mine). It's not trying to right a great wrong, because there is no "great wrong" being righted, this would be purely informational in nature. It's not a disclaimer, because nobody's suggesting this be simply be a warning about what follows in the article (which would be a disclaimer), but to more prominently place relevant and helpful information towards the top of the article in some way. Not advocacy, because nobody is suggesting we advocate for anything - providing this information at the top of the article(s) in question would serve an informational purpose for our readers. While it's certainly within us editors' discretion as a community here to decide "we don't want to provide this information", there's really no policy reason that we can't. And even if there was, If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it. Wikipedia exists to be an encyclopedia - "A comprehensive reference work (often spanning several printed volumes) with articles" - and to provide useful articles for readers... in a way that the reader will understand and find interesting. Whether we want to admit it or not, some readers will be directed to Wikipedia when they are searching for information about suicide, mental health, rape, etc. and currently, the primary place they will see it is the very end of articles in External Links - which does not serve our readers who will in a time of distress see a long article and likely never make it to the EL section. For all of the above reasons, I support further discussion, and workshopping of an infobox or top-banner style notice to be placed on pages that would provide this information. I would be happy to workshop some examples of formatting if it would be beneficial to this discussion or an eventual RfC, but I would need others to input on the best way to provide geographically relevant information - is it that the banner links to a separate page (whether in article space, project space, or elsewhere) that contains resources by country/location? Or is it the use of geo-notices as proposed here? Or is there another way that wouldn't require the user to click through to a separate page? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Whether we want to admit it or not, some readers will be directed to Wikipedia when they are searching for information about suicide, mental health, rape, etc. and currently, the primary place they will see it is the very end of articles in External Links" That's funny. I would have thought that the primary place they would find such information is the articles themeselves. If I were looking for help, therapy, treatment, etc for such things, I wouldn't go to the article about them. I would do a search for "suicide helpline" or "rape crisis center", etc. Sorry, but you still fail to show that WP:NOT doesn't apply. User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:26, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's completely reasonable that someone that suspects they may have a mental health problem may do research about it to see if it really does line up with what they're experiencing. Providing this information in no way detracts from the usefulness of Wikipedia- the only possible effect is positive. Ju1c3machine (talk) 13:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what the original poster is asking to add. That's what should already be in the article. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am the original poster- I'm saying that if someone is researching a condition, it might be because they're thinking they have it, so including resources would be helpful. Ju1c3machine (talk) 14:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which are you looking to add 1) details about the disorder to "see if it really does line up with what they're experiencing" or 2) places to go for an actual diagnosis, because these are different things. The first is encyclopedically relevant, the second isn't. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking to add resources such as official government sponsored hotlines, because if someone is on the page for a mental illness they think they might have, where to find treatment is relevant and helpful information. Ju1c3machine (talk) 17:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, the most likely effect will be that more people will rely on Wikipedia to give them information about helplines, etc., rather than on more relevant and more complete websites. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned before, news sites commonly include hotlines at the end of articles about suicide- I don't think anyone has drawn the conclusion that they should head to the NYT for mental health information. Ju1c3machine (talk) 17:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We're not a news site. What they do is completely irrelevant. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What IS relevant is that other online encyclopedias do, as mentioned above. Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:04, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see an issue with making a cat hall page to list "recognized" resources for mental health type issues, with "recognized" being either official govt resources (like 988 for the Suicide hotline) or from expert, well known medical organizations in that area. Since these can vary by country, a separate page makes sense, and which could be highlighted by a color keyed navbox. Masem (t) 14:21, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely agree that we might want to limit resources to those that are official/government funded instead of random organizations. Ju1c3machine (talk) 14:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How many official/government contact points are we talking about? There are 193 members of the UN plus a few other generally recognized sovereignties, some breakaway states, a number of dependent territories, and many sub-territories (states, provinces, etc.), each of which may have their own resource contact points. So, do we concentrate on providing contact information only for political units with large populations? Sending people to on-line contacts which do not have a local presence will often not be enough. In some places, directing people with problems to official contacts may not be the best way to help them. Maintaining all of that information (protecting it from link-rot, vandals and well-meaning but ill-informed editors) is going to require work from volunteers (edit-protection or pending changes may help, but is not perfect). I am afraid that, based on the typical level of maintenance in Wikipeida projects, a page such as proposed here will end up giving unusable or even harmful information to people seeking help. Donald Albury 16:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For article content, when the full list isn't feasible, we usually focus on large English-speaking countries plus anything with significance (the oldest, the biggest, etc.).

For external links, we would normally link to a web directory instead of maintaining anything ourselves (e.g., https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/suicide/suicide-prevention-hotlines-resources-worldwide for suicide hotlines). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this is on a separate list page, there is no reason not to include them all. One or multiple tables (organized by continent) can make for easy navigation. Subpages could be made for North America (US states and Canadian provinces) and any other country where there is such significant lower level govt involvement. — Masem (t) 16:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking that keeping it to English-speaking countries would be enough, considering this is English Wikipedia. Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That would cover more than 50 different countries. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a limit to how many countries we can provide information on? Ju1c3machine (talk) 12:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the idea of a separate page or a template similar to a navbox, but I think that should only be a partial solution. Again, many articles already include resources (of varying quality and number) at the bottom of the page in the external links section. So adding more resources even further down on the page doesn’t really improve anything here. Maybe I misunderstood you? But I’d prefer it to be an info box style template (whether above, below, or incorporated into the info box if the article had one) with a sentence inviting people to click a link if all they want to see is the resources without having to scroll the article. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:56, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the original idea, of having a section (or paragraph) in articles about various organizations/crisis lines, I think it's a good idea. If the article is organized along the suggested WP:MEDSECTIONS plan, then it would usually go under ==Society and culture==. For example, an article about suicide could mention 1-800-273-8255 (song).

In terms of ==External links==, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#External links has recommended for years that local/city organizations be excluded (because even if we think it's great that one city has a support group meeting on Thursday mornings for that kind of cancer, that's really not useful information for the rest of the world), and that either a small number of national/international groups be considered for inclusion, or a link to a good Web directory (which does not have to be Curlie, and often shouldn't be). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• This is becoming a WP:Perennial proposals issue, but I have several reservations about this practice, however well-intentioned. The evidence of the effectiveness of suicide hotlines is inconclusive.^[1] Any endorsement of this health intervention is non-compliant with WP:MEDRS. The inclusion of such resources could a) be taken as condescending by people who have these conditions or b) could encourage faulty self-diagnosis, which would be very problematic. Encouraging the reader to think of their subjectivity as a potential victim of an illness can have deleterious psychological effects. Further, as Donald Albury notes, the work of actually verifying that any given hotline, even if government-sponsored, is actually sincere in its mission and serves to help those who call it represents a massive amount of volunteer effort on a global scale, with a very real risk of sending people to crisis lines that will cause them harm (due to insufficient patient privacy protections, due to inadequately trained personnel or ideologically rather than scientifically-driven therapy practices, etc.). The framing of this entire question feels like a response to a school-assembly PSA: why depression and anorexia? Why not schizophrenia, or BPD? What about illnesses that are not primarily mental, but which almost certainly see a significant amount of traffic from people who suspect that they've contracted them, such as gonorrhea or COVID? Crisis hotline disclaimers are a feel-good solution in search of a problem, and we will certainly find a can of worms' worth of problems if we implement it. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  OP here- you might note that the original post uses anorexia as an example- if there are help lines for BPD and schizophrenia then I think those should be added as well. I"m not weighing in on physical illnesses because that's very clearly a matter for doctors, and it's a bad-faith argument to compare the two. "Here's where people that have this can get help'" is in no way condescending or encouraging self-diagnosis, and I'm pretty confused on how you drew that conclusion from what I said at all. Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:06, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree that it needs more discussion on what article(s) or topics this would display on. But the mere fact that discussion and hashing out are needed shouldn’t preclude a proposal from moving forward. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I thought so too, so I added WP:PEREN#Add prominent links to crisis hotlines on relevant articles a few days ago. We'll still have to let this one play out though. Anomie⚔ 01:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think that was premature. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think it was warranted after the previous discussion in April, following the two in September 2022, following the one in 2019. I just didn't get around to it then. But once this one goes the same way with respect to banners or notices in the lead, we can re-add it. 🤷 Anomie⚔ 23:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  But will it? So far, I see nobody objecting to adding some information about the existence and work of support organizations in the body of the article. I think that means there is support for including that information. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I recommend reading section 3 of this discussion, there are definitely notable arguments against from @Chaotic Enby and @AddWittyNameHere. Ju1c3machine (talk) 04:16, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I didn't reply under section break 3, but I am very much not opposed to adding information about support organizations in a verifiable and WP:DUE encyclopedic way. What I take issue with is a list of miscellaneous external links, but that's something else. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 04:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Whoops, sorry, just woke up and operating pre-coffee over here. I do think that having a separate page of resources sorted by country is the best solution at this point, but I do feel like it's going to spiral into me creating wiki articles for each organization and their work/history eventually... Ju1c3machine (talk) 04:37, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  That would be amazing, that's how the encyclopedia grows! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 04:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Perhaps you should re-read what I actually wrote, below and there and at Wikipedia talk:Perennial proposals, instead of setting up a strawman? Anomie⚔ 10:46, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The idea needs some workshopping and refinement, but I support in principle. The page/template would need to be 30/500 protected at minimum, but full or templateeditor protection would be preferable because it would be a definite target for trolls. It might also be worth opening a dialogue with the Foundation to see if they or Trust & Safety might want to give some input. They might even have some resources or a grant for maintaining it. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:19, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pages aren't protected preemptively, and trolls are virtually never extended-confirmed so I don't see what full protection would bring in this case, except making it much harder to add new entries assuming the proposal goes through. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are usually not pre-emptively protected, though there are some exceptions like Today's Featured Article when it's on the Main Page. Other high-risk pages like the Main Page itself are protected, and we have an entire guideline allowing high risk templates to be pre-emptively protected on a case-by-case basis. Regarding the WP:NOT argument, I think there's a valid WP:IAR exemption that can be justified on humanitarian grounds. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 17:42, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Today's Featured Article is only preemptively protected because previous TFA were repeatedly targeted, and is still only semi-protected. The only preemptively full or template-protected pages, high-risk templates are protected because they are transcluded on tens of thousands of pages and can cause immediate widespread damage to the encyclopedia, while not needing regular updates. A list of information on many organizations will definitely need regular updates, while not being transcluded to the same scale as citation or infobox templates, so full protection is very much not needed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 18:20, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but this still falls under WP:NOT. You have still not demonstrated why Listings such as the white or yellow pages should not be replicated. does not apply here, especially with the proposal of making separate pages for this information. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Information on organizations that treat or provide assistance with a disease is objectively relevant to the Wiki pages aimed to provide information about that disease. Even if that were not the case, I also agree with The Wordsmith on there being a valid exemption to the rule for humanitarian reasons. Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:10, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:NOTIAR. As pointed by multiple people above, it is not even clear that this would be an improvement to begin with, let alone an improvement to our purpose of being an encyclopedia, and making an exception for "humanitarian reasons" would open the door to a lot more non-encyclopedic stuff that could be justified on the same grounds (humanitarian fundraisers, advocacy groups, etc.) Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out the post from bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez above- I agree that is is an improvement to our purpose of being an encyclopedia, given that other encyclopedias include this information. Ju1c3machine (talk) 10:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't follow what other online encyclopedias do. Both of the ones mentioned also include quizzes but we aren't adding those. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:37, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed this in my comments above. Encyclopedias exist to serve their readers. And sometimes this means we bend the “not a white pages directory”, whether in lists with links to our own articles or lists with external links. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While, yes, encyclopedias exist to serve their readers, that doesn't mean that anything that is potentially useful has to go in an encyclopedia. Lists with links to our own articles aren't anything like a white page directory, and I don't think anyone here would object that a list of notable helplines wouldn't be encyclopedic. But a standalone repository of phone numbers/external links, while useful for some readers, wouldn't be more encyclopedic than a software changelog. WP:USEFUL is not an argument for IAR. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anything can be an argument for IAR - if it's an improvement. You say it's not encyclopedic, then why do other online encyclopedias generally include them on at least some pages - see above? Further, nobody is suggesting that the list be put in mainspace. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:33, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose including any kind of out-of-band helpline links, both for the practical reasons already identified (vetting that they are legit; keeping them up to date; normalising the expectation that Wikipedia is a place to get medical advice) and because there is very limited evidence these things are helpful, and the possibility that they are actively harmful, causing ideation that may not otherwise have crystallised. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:41, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can see your point behind causing ideation for something like suicide, but don't see how that relates to other topics, like eating disorders or bipolar disorder. Seeing a phone number for either of those isn't going to make someone 'start' being bulimic or bipolar. Ju1c3machine (talk) 09:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying that a phone number is going to cause a mental illness, just that mental illness, generally speaking, is a complex phenomenon and its contributing factors are not well understood. I think it is at least plausible that reading an article which is written in a dispassionate, detached, neutral tone, will have a different psychological impact to reading a warning notice that personalises the interaction by suggesting that you might want to call this number if you are affected. This isn't a peer-reviewed comment. It may be an unfounded concern. But this proposal is a public health intervention, so I'd want to have a steer from a medical authority of some sort that it isn't going to cause more harm than good. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I sandboxed the easiest method of doing this at the top of the page - adding to the infobox either above the image or at the bottom of the infobox - I don't really like either of these ideas since I think that it makes the statement less prominient than it should be, but you can see them here. Of note, I didn't expect WP:Mental health resources to be a blue link. It's a soft redirect to meta:Mental health resources. So it appears that Trust and Safety has already gotten rid of any liability concerns through the normal disclaimers/etc. And obviously it can be maintained, as they are doing it. I think the mere fact this page exists and has been approved by Trust and Safety means that any argument based on "we can't keep it updated" can be put to rest permanently. It would be ideal to have a version of that page adopted to the English Wikipedia however. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I like the sandboxed version (and think at the bottom of the box looks better than at the top from an aesthetic point of view), but that then raises the issue of having to create another page to link to for each illnesses' resources- instead of this just being acceptable to add to a page, it would require creating an entirely new page and linking it, which seems like a bit bigger of a project than I originally intended for. That being said, I really do like the way that Wikimedia's page is formatted, and wonder if it would be possible to create one page for helplines and link to individual sections that are relevant for each topic. Ju1c3machine (talk) 20:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In this case, it could be good to have it outside of mainspace (possibly in projectspace instead), and a hatnote at the top of the page would be a more elegant solution than an infobox, as the latter is intended to summarize information. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A hatnote would be an option, but then you run into issues of "what if a page already has a hatnote"? I know some pages have long hatnotes, but this should really be separate from a hatnote for disambiguation, redirect, etc. reasons, as it's completely separate. I was going to try to sandbox a new "infobox" similar to the topic navigation boxes that show on suicide and other topics, but after everything moved to modules (which is great, don't get me wrong) I really can't be arsed. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 21:29, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Berchanhimez, your sandbox's infobox says:

"Help If you or someone you know is considering suicide, you can find resources to help here".

Why not a simple, ordinary link to "List of suicide crisis lines", without the WP:YOU-style writing? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy for anyone to edit it to be better, but I don't think a simple link to a list without a sentence isn't going to be what is ideal here. If that's all people are okay with it's better than nothing I guess. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 00:52, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose I support anyone applying for money at meta:Grants:Start to develop this idea. Here and every other time this has been proposed, I feel that the early ideas are more harmful than good. Problems include
  • English Wikipedia is a global service, but there are no crisis support services that are global. There are not even enough regional support services to be satisfactory.
  • Services are not neutral. Many of them take positions on ethics and values. For example, some crisis hotlines may advise people that their lives will be better if they quit being LGBT+. We should not recommend an external service without having a process to report and evaluate them.
  • Wikipedia is not prepared to recommend products and services. If we start doing this, then certain organizations get government, foundation, and other funding and while others do not. Organizations will pay staff to persuade Wikipedians, sponsor Wikipedians to travel, send their staff people to conferences, talk about the partnership in the media, and advise the wiki community with expertise that is difficult to evaluate. Managing endorsements requires staff, and the first step is not to make endorsements to see what happens.

Again, I support the development of the idea, and someone should apply for a grant to develop all the reasons for and against. Bluerasberry (talk) 14:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very good point, especially regarding the non-neutral position that Wikipedia would have to take when recommending services. These are not comparable to external links, which are just showing links where relevant information can be found, without recommending the services provided in these links.
It's not even a question of "managing endorsements would be complicated". Managing endorsements would make us fundamentally non-neutral. We shouldn't be recommending products and services to begin with. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 16:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A free-to-use government-sponsored emergency hotline is neither a service nor a product. All of the arguments above can easily be handled by just providing official resources. Additionally, the anti-LGBT hotline falls under WP:FRINGE and isn#t relevenat to the current discussion. Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A free-to-use government-sponsored emergency hotline is neither a service nor a product. It is, by definition, a service. And anti-LGBT hotlines are relevant to the discussion because, sadly, some countries' official resources are anti-LGBT. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 17:16, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a proposition about hotlines on mental illness articles- what mental illness would need an anti-LGBT hotline? Ju1c3machine (talk) 11:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some countries consider LGBT people to suffer from mental illnesses. You very likely don't want to call a government hotline in Qatar to effectively turn yourself in for being gay. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 12:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that falls under WP:FRINGE. Additionally, there isn't a specific psychology page for homosexuality as a mental illness. Ju1c3machine (talk) 12:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FRINGE or not, if you're recommending government hotlines, that's the kind of stuff you risk having in more than a few countries. And given that the readers we link the hotline to will likely trust it enough to share personal details (even if just for the needed context), some of them will actually risk ending up in that situation, with the hotline possibly blaming their LGBT identity as the cause for their condition, even if they didn't reach the hotline through a specific "homosexuality as a mental illness" page. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 14:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's definitely something to keep in mind, but I think the discussion should surround what criteria we are used to provide resources that are safe for users instead of "here's why we should scrap the whole idea". Ju1c3machine (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that if there's interest in the idea, the Foundation should be consulted. Normally I'm very opposed to integrating them further into enwiki processes, but this area seems like it would be a logical place for that. Trust & Safety may have even considered doing this already, and might be willing to share and research or insight they have. Maybe they'd even be willing to take care of maintaining the list. It seems like this discussion is to figure out whether there's some interest in the overall idea that's worth developing further, and I think there is. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 16:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Any advice on how to move forward from here? This is my first time suggesting something like this on wiki, I'm not super up to speed on what the correct process is. Ju1c3machine (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You wait for there to be a consensus here. IMO it's likely this will turn out much the same as previous times this sort of thing has been brought up: between the questionable impact of helplines and the need to be global, something at the top of the article or in the lead beyond a hatnote like we have on Suicide (pointing to Suicide prevention) is unlikely to be accepted. Similarly, a listing within an article is unlikely to overcome WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a directory. OTOH, a well-written section in the articles (or standalone article, if independently notable) about types of prevention or support would probably be accepted. Anomie⚔ 01:52, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think we need to operate on the principle, "first, do no harm". I have not seen any WP:MEDRS-compliant source that says whether such helplines are helpful or harmful or neither. I myself suffer from a mental illess (two in fact) and, though I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, can see that it is by no means self-evident that helplines, or the promotion of them, actually help. Yes, they provide a nice warm glow to the people that operate them or volunteer for them, but I would probably be adversely affected by the suggestion that I should call one. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I too have mental health issues (+autism, which in my case brings with it a good few issues that do at times interact with my mental health issues), and while I am also not claiming or attempting to speak for anyone but myself, I can confirm your statement beyond a "would be": suggestions of calling a helpline/crisis line have in the past adversely affected me (by setting off an anxiety attack or flashback, mainly), and my experience with actually using such services a handful of times has varied from "slightly helpful" to "harmful". AddWittyNameHere 06:33, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to reiterate (again) that I'm not advocating for the "random volunteer tells you to not commit suicide" type hotlines, I'm advocating for the "hello I think I need to get help for my eating disorder, can you please help me make an appointment with a provider in my area" type hotline. Ju1c3machine (talk) 06:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ju1c3machine: I know you are. (Though not everyone in this discussion is, on both sides). That said, those sorts of hotlines would still adversely affect me, simply because they break down the barrier between "abstract concept" and "this (could) apply to me", which is what such hotlines/their mentions within the relevant contexts are based on: someone realizing "this applies to me" and which leads to either realizing they need help (the type of hotline you advocate for) or spiraling and needing more acute intervention (which the other type of hotline is supposed to provide, at least).

I can absolutely see how that would be helpful in a lot of cases, but at least for me personally, that "barrier-breaking" is more likely to do harm than good. By turning an abstract, distant concept (which, sure, I know happens to apply to me too) into something about me, first and foremost (that happens to apply to other people too) may bring on the "this is talking about me, remember that time when you [...] oh and that perfectly describes that other time when [...]" spiral of flashbacks depending on my state of mind at the time.

Of course, my experiences are my own, and like I said, I can see how it would be helpful in plenty of cases. But that it can do harm alongside good is something I feel should be weighed into decisions. AddWittyNameHere 07:37, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can see your point, but also think that it has potential to do a lot of good- for example, I have ARFID, and a suggestion on the page to get help might have saved me a lot of struggle instead of thinking that my eating disorder was just "how I am" or "picky eating", and something worth getting help for. Not to get too personal, but my delay in getting help has lead to being diagnosed with heart disease, likely as a consequence of malnutrition- something that could have been avoided if I had known where to go to get help for it sooner. Ju1c3machine (talk) 12:03, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise, I can also see your point. It has potential to do both good and harm, alongside what's likely the greater bulk of cases—folks to which the issue described does not apply, particularly—in which it has negligible to no impact at all. I do wish there was a better way to figure out how much harm it would prevent vs cause, but if wishes were fishes...

So, barring that, my main reason for mentioning the point (both here and elsewhere in the section) is to ensure that its potential for causing harm alongside preventing it is taken into consideration, in part in whether this is a good idea, but especially in, if it is decided it is a good idea, what way to implement this and what group of articles to apply it to.

(As for too personal, I think sometimes getting personal in discussions about matters like this and accessibility concerns can be pretty useful by illustrating how a change could be/have been helpful (or harmful) in a non-hypothetical manner.) AddWittyNameHere 04:44, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does it change anything that there's a Trust and Safety approved list on meta already that we link to from WP:Mental health resources already? Pinging both User:Bluerasberry and User:The Wordsmith to ensure they both see that they've already started a list, and merely linking to that list (if nothing else) would almost certainly not be something they'd want to give "more" approval to. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 17:41, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've also added a note to the talk page of the meta page for anyone with experience in how this page is used, or from the WMF, to comment here if they so desire. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 17:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Berchanhimez: WMF Trust and Safety is great for what they do. They should not change anything.

However, when resources are scarce and the Wikimedia user community wants something versus the Wikimedia Foundation wanting something different, then T&S is going to side with the WMF. In general, T&S prioritizes protection where the WMF as a corporation could be legally liable. T&S do not prioritize lower level safety issues, and if for example, we had democratic governance, then most Wikipedians would vote to eliminate the common familiar problems and not the rare emergency problems. I am not saying that democracy is good or bad in this case, just that the majority of requests/votes would be for things that T&S does not do.

It is not appropriate for the Wikimedia community to freely edit that page on meta. Some pages on meta are sort of owned by WMF staff, and that is one of them. I support that page being there, but it being there does not indicate universal consensus to endorse driving traffic to it or its contents. When a lot of WMF staff edit a page then editors get scared away from raising criticism or concerns or problems.

Again, I support anyone applying for a grant to document all the social and ethical issues that come from making crisis referrals to organizations outside of our platform, and to just take this seriously. Bluerasberry (talk) 18:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t think we’d necessarily need to edit that page or maintain a local copy - even just linking to that page directly in the hatnote (or whatever is decided) would suffice. I can’t really tell what your opinion is - at first, it was reading as that it’s “not possible” to make such a page, but Trust and Safety already has done so and apparently they’re not concerned with the liability from it at all, nor linking/directing to those specific organizations. I’m not suggesting that page is evidence of a consensus - that’s what this discussion is for - but that page is evidence that Trust and Safety has already thought about the issue of “which organizations” and our liability and decided that they are either non-issues or can be properly managed by them vetting the links. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 18:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a way to get WMF's opinion on the idea? Ju1c3machine (talk) 18:50, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF can do whatever they want on MetaWiki, but having a corporation-vetted list of services masquerading as an encyclopedia article is not what Wikipedia is for. There isn't even evidence that it would be helpful, let alone that it would be a justified WP:IAR improvement to the encyclopedia. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is suggesting this would “masquerade as an encyclopedia article”, so statements like that are less than unhelpful. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is including a relevant link to an existing Wikimedia page "masquerading as an encyclopedia article"? Ju1c3machine (talk) 05:40, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether the people supporting this proposal would advise people with cancer or heart disease (or arthritis - I have never considered suicide as a way out of my mental problems, but I would do just about anything to get rid of the pain when my arthritis flares up) to phone a well-meaning amateur rather than seek professional help? Phil Bridger (talk) 19:11, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can see this point being made for suicide crisis lines, but the types of resources I had in mind are the kind where you can call and someone helps walk you through finding professional help in your area. Ju1c3machine (talk) 19:14, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ju1c3machine: In List of countries by English-speaking population, India, Pakistan, and Nigeria are top 5. It would be disappointing if we did not recommend good services to them but designed our support to refer people in other countries. It is a challenge to find regional services in those places. Bluerasberry (talk) 19:22, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taking Nigera as an example, it took approximately 30 seconds to find a list of government-sponsored hotlines. Ju1c3machine (talk) 05:38, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! It's almost like there are ways to find this information that are already available and are much better at it. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:19, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wow! It's almost like that's not the point of the proposal, and that consolidated information should be available from the page itself for easier access to those needing help. You can't argue both "we can't do this because the resources are hard to find" and "we don't need to do this because the resources are already super easy to find somewhere else", that's absurd. Ju1c3machine (talk) 04:18, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Show me where I argued that these things were hard to find? --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The person that replied before you argued that it was hard to find resources, which I disproved, and then you said we don’t need to because it’s easy to find resources. Since when does “you can find this information somewhere else” mean that it doesn’t belong on Wiki? Ju1c3machine (talk) 08:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People with cancer aren’t at risk of dying imminently by suicide if they don’t find another path forward. Your suggestion comes closer to a general “medical disclaimer” that’s explicitly not appropriate on Wikipedia. Offering people an option other than “keep looking at articles about depression/suicide until you do it or get tired of it” isn’t the same thing as “contact your doctor to discuss medical concerns”. Attempting to make that analogy minimizes the urgency of suicide prevention. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:24, 26 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People with cancer aren’t at risk of dying imminently by suicide if they don’t find another path forward. - they well might. Cancer comes with elevated suicide rates, particularly when the prognosis is poor and/or quality of life is significantly, long-term impaired—concerns about the former and ways of hopefully tackling the latter are both better discussed with a doctor than an amateur volunteer without access to your medical information.

Offering people an option other than “keep looking at articles about depression/suicide until you do it or get tired of it” isn’t the same thing as “contact your doctor to discuss medical concerns”. Going to be a little more explicit here about my mental health/experiences with mental health crises than I would otherwise be: in my case, that "offered option" would increase rather than decrease the risk I am at.

From experience, if not actively struggling, looking at [clinical representations of/distant mentions of] suicide and depression with or without mention of hotlines is unlikely to set off my suicidal ideation and related matters.

If I am struggling, however, without such hotlines it makes it a distant and clinical concept, which has helped me distance myself from such thoughts a time or two. On the other hand, with hotlines (and especially when those are directed at the reader) provided, it breaks the barrier that makes it an abstract concept and turns it into "something I might feel tempted to do/could do". Which tends to make my ideation a lot less abstract and my intrusive thoughts more intrusive. (That my experiences with crisis lines are a mixed-leaning-negative bag including two cases that set off my anxiety if reminded of them at the wrong time does very much not help there)

Of course, I am just one person, and my personal experiences don't apply to everyone. I'm not saying "it is harmful to me, therefore it must be harmful in general". But there does seem to be a tendency (in general discourse, not you specifically, nor even this discussion specifically) to gloss over the fact that the presence of such reader-directed hotlines might cause some people harm, too. It might well be that on the whole, that harm of their presence is outweighed by the harm of their absence—but that's impossible to determine without first taking into account that there is harm on both sides of the coin. AddWittyNameHere 07:18, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to ask that that discussion stays on topic to my original proposal, which was to add resources for where someone can find treatment options for mental health problems, not suicide hotlines themselves. My suggestion was prompted by friends of mine with mental health problems wishing there were easier ways to get help- in some countries, there are easier ways to get help, and I believe adding them might help make those options more widely known, especially when (as mentioned before) someone is reading Wikipedia to learn more about a condition that they didn't know was the reason behind their maladaptive behavior. Ju1c3machine (talk) 11:39, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is the sort of thing Google (or any other search engine) would be much better for than Wikipedia. -- User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:17, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suicide hotlines are easy: We can link to List of suicide crisis lines, which already exists (for more than a decade), already is sourced, etc., and we're done.

I think the more interesting area is non-suicide social support. So to answer the question from @Phil Bridger, I would recommend a peer-led support group to people with cancer. People with cancer who join peer support groups tend to live longer and have better quality of life than people who don't. Support groups are mentioned, e.g., in Breast cancer#Society and culture. Note that it doesn't say "If you live in Ruritania, contact the Ruritanian Cancer Support Group"; instead, it has encyclopedic information about the earliest support group for breast cancer. Someone could expand that article content if they wanted to; the result would probably say something like some are organized through hospitals and there are a bunch on social media. It might even touch on the practice of having separate support groups for women who are highly likely to survive vs those at risk of treatment failure and death.

I don't know if there are similar groups for heart disease. Part of what seems to make a peer-led support group work is having everyone more or less in the same situation, so it might not be "heart disease", but instead for people with a specific type of heart disease.

But overall, I would recommend the "well-meaning amateur" in some instances. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:56, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

add resources for where someone can find treatment options for mental health problems Using your Anorexia nervosa example, what specific resources or links would you add? Some1 (talk) 01:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Resources that I had in mind when I posted the proposal (not meeting the criteria of 'maybe we should stick to government-sponsored organizations' because I don't have time at the moment to do research and I happen to know of these off the top of my head) would be NEDA and ANAD, whose hotlines connects individuals with treatment options (ANAD was the first ED hotline to exist which I think is also a neat fact to stick in an article somewhere), EatRight, which has a directory of nutritionists and dieticians (who are an essential part of recovery, as people with EDs need a very specific diet to avoid refeeding syndrome), NAMI, which provides general mental health group support, and Eating Disorders Anonymous, which might be a helpful tool for someone who doesn't need traditional inpatient treatment. Ju1c3machine (talk) 04:32, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Slightly more awake addition to this: Eating Disorders Anonymous is also a good resource for those who can’t access inpatient treatment, but it’s an option many in ED communities are completely unaware exists, so I believe linking that one specifically would have a rapid positive impact on those affected, especially for users in the US (where it can be prohibitively expensive and/or not covered by insurance) and the UK (where I’m less familiar with the topic, but believe there are also some issues there with waiting times and quality of treatment facilities). Ju1c3machine (talk) 06:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• I have to confess that I have never really understood the overall meme of mental health hotlines. You see them in a bunch of cases (notoriously, near the ends of subway platforms). My main experience with them is that they are obnoxiously and insistently slathered over my screen if I try to look something up which happens to be tangentially related to a contentious mental health topic. The impulse is very easy to understand, as it's a syllogism you see all over the place: "suicide is a tragedy, something should be done about tragedies, and this is something". Here is something to consider: many of our readers get to Wikipedia by way of a search engine. If you search for "suicide" you're already forced to scroll past a full screen's worth of paternalistic lecturing from Google LLC, so are we actually providing any benefit by making our readers sit through a second one after they click the Wikipedia link? jp×g🗯️ 00:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't believe me, here is what you see when you Google "suicide" (I am in California so your results may vary):

After this, there are three videos hoisted to the top of the results: "Suicide: Facts & Misconceptions You Should Know", "How Do I Ask For Help If I’m Thinking About Suicide?" and "Teen Suicide Prevention". All of this takes up about a full screen on a normal computer. Then you scroll down past another screen or so of offically-approved links to suicide hotlines (one from the California State Portal, one from the CDC, one from the NIH, and then one from the WHO). Only then, after Google has diligently eliminated all possible sources of legal liability (e.g. repeated CYA disclaimers about "consult your local medical authority") do they permit the Wikipedia link to appear. I copied the full text content of the search results page into a reading-time estimator, and it gave me 1:54. This means that someone who clicks on the link to Suicide from a Google search does so after having spent nearly the entire runtime of Led Zeppelin - IMMIGRANT SONG.mp3 having helpline numbers shoved in their face. Are we really, genuinely, helping this person, or are we just making ourselves feel better, at the cost of diminishing their ability to read the article? jp×g🗯️ 01:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is suggesting something intrusive that would diminish someone's ability to read the article. The suggestions I've seen so far are a hatnote style one line at the top which would likely be in italics, or an addition to the infobox, or a small box above/below the infobox with a page of resources linked to from it. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 01:07, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you read the conversation, we are talking about a small link to mental health resources for issues that are not suicide. I would appreciate it if this conversation would stop getting derailed by what I was unaware is a controversial topic. I recognize that there are mixed opinions on suicide resources and warnings, which are numerous- this is not the case for other mental health issues, such as eating disorders, or this conversation wouldn’t be taking place. Ju1c3machine (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't say it's getting derailed. Suicide is the option that has the most pre-existing consideration within Wikimedia Foundation projects (see WP:Mental health resources) and is also the one with the most correlation in other encyclopedias/etc. Yes, it's divisive, but those opposing them for their "efficacy" are opposing all mental health resource links for their efficacy from what I can see. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see a lot of evidence that people are thinking about anything except suicide. In fact, I added a link to Diagnosis of autism#External links a couple of weeks ago. It's about mental health. It's a resource. It's a link. There's been no opposition, and I expect no opposition (assuming nobody decides to be WP:POINTY after I mention it here). I'm hoping that some readers, particularly high school students writing the predictable paper for health class, will click the link and learn something (e.g., that the diagnostic process for autism involves fairly ordinary personality-type quizzes). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:45, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good data point, but I think the original proposal was for them to be more prominent (i.e. infobox, a box above/below the infobox on the side, a hatnote, etc) rather than relegated to the bottom of the page in EL. I agree that putting them as EL isn't generally considered controversial. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:54, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ju1c3machine's original proposal here was to have a directory of information in a section within the article. You jumped in early on and started advocating for a prominent "call to action" at the top of the article. Then WhatamIdoing jumped in with some more status-quo options (e.g. external links that could comply with WP:EL and in-article coverage in line with WP:DUE rather than against WP:NOTDIR) but also refuses to accept that people can make a distinction between those and yours.

To my eyes, the rest of the discussion seems to have been supportive of WP:DUE and WP:EL, and opposed to top of the article calls to action and to article-space directories other than the already-existing List of suicide crisis lines. Whether the line on more subtle hatnotes has moved from the very subtle one approved in Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 161#Proposal to add suicidal disclaimer at Suicide is unclear. Anomie⚔ 11:23, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that people can make a distinction between different forms. However, I don't believe that putting an oversimplified line in WP:PEREN that says the community has a consensus not to "Add prominent links to crisis hotlines on relevant articles" will result in people making that distinction. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:30, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You believe people won't read more than the heading of anything, so if it's not possible to state as a soundbite then it's not possible to state at all. Anomie⚔ 10:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe that.

I do believe that most people do not read things closely.

I do believe that most editors will not read past the headline when they believe that the headline has told them the whole story, and especially if they want the contents of an oversimplified headline to be the whole story.

See also all the people who see an WP:UPPERCASE shortcut and assume that they know what the policy says – even if the linked page isn't a policy and says the opposite of the shortcut (e.g., WP:VOTE and WP:NOTAVOTE, which point to the same essay; WP:DEADLINE and WP:NOTDEADLINE; WP:NOTWINNING and WP:WINNING; and so forth). This is not a unique problem. The whole internet has problems with people only reading part of the story, and then going out to assert that they really know what's going on because they read – well, not the whole article, but the headline, one caption, and half of the first paragraph. We have a rule against relying on news headlines if you haven't read the whole article, and against relying on abstracts if you haven't read the whole journal article; we would not need those rules if busy people could be relied upon to read the whole thing every time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:31, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So which is it? We can't add it to WP:PEREN if we can't reduce it to a soundbite because people won't read more than that, or we can add it to WP:PEREN because we have rules against not reading the whole thing and hundreds or thousands of existing rules that already require reading the whole thing to get right? Anomie⚔ 13:08, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't add your summary to PEREN because you don't have consensus. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:46, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because exactly one person (you) objects, for no reason you can support? 🙄 I don't think that's how consensus is supposed to work. But if you're going to be like that, I suppose we can waste time with an RFC about it after this discussion too closes with consensus against a prominent top-of-article call to action. Anomie⚔ 11:22, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We could equally say that "exactly one person (you) supports". WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:00, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You could say that, but you'd be wrong. At least one other person here has supported adding it to WP:PEREN. Anomie⚔ 02:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I went with suicide, because it's the one thing where the argument is strongest for including some kind of hatnote or warning label. For e.g. anorexia or bulimia, the case is quite a bit weaker, since there is not a possibility that the person is imminently about to die -- they have just as much time as anyone else, they just have a mental disorder. They are just as intelligent as anyone else, too, and I don't see why we need to give them additional hatnotes on top of an article that's already about the disorder (we don't have hatnotes at the top of bandsaw that tell you to wear safety glasses, or gas metal arc welding that tell you to make sure your ground clamp is connected, et cetera). People with anorexia can read, yes? If you Google "anorexia", you already get reams of stuff about how to get help and where to get help and here's a helpline and et cetera. The intended demographic of this intervention seems extremely small: people who have a mental illness and desperately need help for it, who are wise enough to be reading a Wikipedia article, but not wise enough to be able to type "[name of disorder] help" into a search engine? jp×g🗯️ 07:24, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the important thing to remember is that, while yes, many people treat Google as a first source of information, our articles are linked to throughout the web. For all we know, someone's reading an article on some blog somewhere that has a link to our article on suicide, and it may not even be a clear link (perhaps it was an easter egg link on that site). Many people also do use our interwiki links and/or search bar to get to articles directly, rather than dealing with the ads/promoted links on Google/other search engines. Sure, I don't think anyone going to the Canadian Encyclopedia is so internet unsavvy that they can't go to Google and type in "X help". But that's not why their hatnotes exist. It's because people arrive at articles they don't intend to, or that they may have intended to but only after going down a rabbit hole of seeing things that have triggered them to be thinking about committing suicide. Let's use an example - someone hears a nice Avicii song that they enjoyed, and they come to look up the album/song on Wikipedia. They then click the article about Avicii, because they want to read more about him - without even thinking about suicide. In reading our article, they read about his suicide, and that gets them to thinking about it. There isn't currently a wikilink to suicide in his article that I can see (though there maybe should be?) - but they now, thinking about the topic of suicide and seeing that a musical artist that they enjoyed committed suicide, happen to go to our article on suicide, in a time of distress. Not because they came to Wikipedia thinking about suicide - they came here for information on a song/musician. But they ended up on our article about suicide nonetheless. That is the "intended demographic", and for those with mental illness, going down those rabbit holes that lead to researching suicide or self-harm is all too common. It costs nothing for us to add a prominent but not intrusive list of resources for them to use if they want to stop going down that rabbit hole but can't do so on their own. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 08:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is really well worded and a great descriptor of why I made this proposal, thank you! Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"they have just as much time as anyone else, they just have a mental disorder"

Eating disorders have the highest mortality of any mental illness. This is being proposed because an issue I struggle with isn't very well known and I didn't realize help existed for it, let alone that it was a problem that I needed serious help with instead of just being a 'personality quirk'. I'm not sure why you think reading an article on one of the most popularly used websites on the internet makes you 'wise', but no, for a lot of these resources googling doesn't really provide resources or help- it's just WebMD summaries of how to spot early signs of those issues in kids, because god forbid those kids not figure out there's a name for what's wrong with them until later and want to fix it. Ju1c3machine (talk) 16:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I note that there have been over a hundred responses to this, but only one (this one from Rosguill) has come with a WP:MEDRS-compliant source, and that was inconclusive and about suicide prevention lines, which we are told is not the subject of this discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Once again concerns about ECP being too easy to work towards have been raised at AN. My concern with this is that we are WP:BITING good faith editors who see the requirements and, not knowing that we don't want editors working towards them, decide to do so through productive and good faith edits.

Rather than repeatedly taking such editors to AN or ANI, or otherwise sanctioning them, the best solution is to change our requirements so that even if an editor chooses to work towards them we can have faith than they have obtained a minimum level of understanding and competency. As a simple and conservative change towards this, I suggest that to obtain ECP an editor must have:

• 500 edits outside of draft and user space (noting that articles written in draft or user space but moved to article space will be considered article space edits)
• 200 of which are more than 250 bytes

Implementing this can done with a simple adminbot, which would check whether users have met the requirement and grant them ECP if they have. Users who have already been granted ECP will be grandfathered in.

@Iskandar323, Amayorov, EggRoll97, Swatjester, Starship.paint, Sean.hoyland, Selfstudier, and XDanielx: Notify editors who participated in the recent AN discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 20:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I know there have been concerns about me gaining ECP in less than a week, but I must say that it certainly wasn't easy. It took me around five days of non-stop editing and learning, practically without taking a break except for sleep.

But anyway, I think yours is a great suggestion! Is there some concept like a cumulative edit to a page? Because otherwise a user could simply insert-delete a wall of text multiple times to meet the requirements. Amayorov (talk) 21:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say a user inserting and deleting a wall of text would be blocked as WP:NOTHERE before they get to ECP. Also, I genuinely don't think non-stop editing for days without taking breaks except for sleep is healthy. Not in terms of your edits, but in terms of actual health. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. I'm not concerned about editors who obtain ECP through bad faith edits, as they are easy to identify and there is no WP:BITE issue in sanctioning them for it. BilledMammal (talk) 21:10, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a qualitative strengthening of the requirements would be beneficial. I mentioned the spirit of the 500/30 rule before, and in my mind, the spirit is indeed to build up both editing experience and community and guideline familiarity. This actually helps editors who are interested in getting into contentious topic areas in the long run, as it ensures that they begin editing in such areas on a more solid footing and are less likely to inadvertently run afoul of the brighter red lines. The measure ignoring user spaces would improve the qualitative bar a little, though I wonder if it is enough. I might also exclude talk, since chatting in talk, especially with the more recent reply function, often really isn't anything akin to editing. Also, I have certainly seen disruptive users rapidly racking up edits through very vapid or actively disruptive talk page contributions. I totally agree with the 200x250 part –assuming it is feasible to implement. However, I might also add a further dimension, and that is time. The 30 days rule only requires that an account exist for 30 days, but I think the original spirit of this was that an editor edits for 30 days. Again, if practically implementable, it would be good to tighten this to 30 days in which actual edits were made – a metric that, again, would provide some assurances that a user has spent a decent amount of time actually becoming familiar with everything. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we're using an adminbot to apply the rights, almost anything is feasible.

Personally, I would prefer to see some talk space participation, as collaboration is an important part of editing. Adjusting how the 30 day rule works could be useful, although I'm not sure how you propose this is done - perhaps the clock starts after the 100th edit, rather than when the account is registered?

One thing to keep in mind is that previous discussions suggest that the more complicated the requirements are the less likely they are to be supported by the community, which is why I've kept them simple this time. However, we could always run an RfC with multiple options? The status quo, a conservative option, and an ambitious option? BilledMammal (talk) 21:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even the clock starting from the first mainspace edit would be an improvement – so 30 days since an account nominally goes active in mainspace. This would weed out accounts that just boot up to sniff around, play around in the sandbox, comment in talk and gentrify their own user pages, among others. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:54, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there perhaps another way to frame this? I'm not opposed to the general idea of using a minimum edit size as a proxy for edit quality, and why that works neatly from an automation standpoint, but it's not without it's problems either. But it seems to me that the real problem we're trying to solve for is edit count abuse that leads to post-confirmation problems on ECR articles, specifically. Communicating expectations of editors is good, but we can take a step back and look at the reason why that expectation arose -- it's not really about the 500 edit requirement and what they did to meet it, it's about demonstrating that one knows how to play by the rules and can edit constructively with others (particularly AFTER their 500th edit). Now, let's say we had a hypothetical user who achieves ExC status through 500 meaningless, insubstantial edits -- but then goes on to have a productive career subsequently and either never edits on ECR articles or does so only in a constructive and harmless manner. Is that user a problem? No. More importantly, is the fact that the user gamed the system to get their ExC status a problem, if they're not actually displaying any problematic behavior? IMO, no. So, separate from the above discussion about edit size and counting active editing days instead of account age, what I'd like to see, is a way that specific problem users (and ONLY them, not every single extended confirmed editor) can be reported and have their pre-confirmation edits put up for review if they're behaving badly post-confirmation; with the result of having their extended confirmed status be revoked if necessary. I'm assuming that would take the form of a new noticeboard, but possibly could already be covered by an existing one? I hope I'm explaining it clearly enough. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 23:28, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the goal is to expect constructive contribution from people before they can get ECP, then no automated way of assigning it will be sufficient, as it will still not show constructive ability to collaborate. Any set of "metrics" one can define, including edit count, days active, edits in certain namespaces (such as Article or Talk), size of edits, etc. will either be gameable just as easily as it is now, or will result in it being unnecessarily difficult to obtain to prevent that gaming. Only if there is truly an issue with the current way (assign it automatically after 30d/500 edits), then the only real other option is for it to be assigned manually, such as by request on a permissions noticeboard (or a new board set up for "experienced confirmed editor" confirmation or similar). I do not believe that is in the spirit of the ECP, however, which was intentionally not supposed to be a "trusted editor" but just a "second level autoconfirmed". -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 03:15, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I tend to agree with Berchanhimez's rather pessimistic view. ECP apparently can't do what it was hoped it could do, with the exception, in my view, of reducing the temperature on talk pages by excluding fire-starters. More comments later... Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:30, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments.

• I'm unconvinced that we are WP:BITING good faith editors. I think they trickle into contentious topic areas organically and don't even notice ECP because they will already have crossed the barrier editing the millions of other articles in good faith. In other words, they don't have an objective that is inconsistent with the Universal Code of Conduct. It would be great if there were a whole bunch of good faith editors out there who wanted to join the PIA topic area for example, but I'm not seeing it, before or after ECP was implemented. In reality, I think it is more like a cloud of people with no intention of complying with the prohibition against 'Systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view'. ECP doesn't appear to help them gain the ability to leave their biases at the door before they enter contentious topic areas.
• re: "is the fact that the user gamed the system to get their ExC status a problem, if they're not actually displaying any problematic behavior? IMO, no." I think the answer to this question depends in part on whether Wikipedia requires editors to be honest, to comply with all policies or only some policies. Editors with a "criminal record" that removed their right to be here are more likely to game the system, more likely to make an effort to appear to be a constructive editor, at least for awhile, until their problematic behavior manifests again and the block->sock cycle restarts. Many of the numerous blocked editors are very experienced editors, they are pretty good editors if you ignore their dishonesty, advocacy, racism, ultranationalism or whatever peculiarities they have that get them into trouble. One of the objectives of ECP was to increase the cost of entry for editors who employ deception via sockpuppetry. There is no evidence that it does that, not as far as I can tell anyway. This is a very significant issue because it means there are two classes of editors, and only one of the classes is affected by sanctions, the class that does not employ deception via sockpuppetry. So, for me, "if they're not actually displaying any problematic behavior" is not a very useful test in itself if honesty matters, and it doesn't really tell me anything useful about the value of ECP. Certainly, in PIA, we are dealing with many experienced ban evading editors with a good understanding of the content rules who unfortunately choose to behave like sociopaths. But maybe honesty doesn't matter because it is not enforceable in practice. Wikipedia could make that decision, that we no longer care whether you are using sockpuppetry to evade a sanction because you are generating decent content some of the time. Sean.hoyland (talk) 06:41, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  I think the answer to this question depends in part on whether Wikipedia requires editors to be honest, to comply with all policies or only some policies.

  My problem with this is I don't think they are breaking any policies by "gaming" ECP. We tell them that they need 500 edits and 30 days tenure to edit; we don't tell them that working towards that through productive edits will be seen "gaming" the system.

  There is no evidence that it does that

  This is part of what adding the minimum byte size will do. It's harder to make large productive edits than it is to make small ones; it will make it harder for editors game ECP, or it will make them more likely to do it through unproductive edits, which will make them easier to catch. BilledMammal (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Byte size is not the best thing either though. Many things, such as templates (with parameters that are not used but valid parameters for the template), references (which can be 250 bytes on their own in some cases), and a plethora of other "trivial" contributions can be over 250 bytes. And things under 250 bytes can be productive edits too. I would be against a byte size rule for automatic granting - at that point, it needs to just be moved to be granted by administrators after evaluating the edits. Because any size of edit you come up with will be just as easy to "game" as it is now, and would prevent legitimate editors who don't meet it from getting it. That's why I think the only options are leave it as is, or to move it to no longer being granted automatically at all - if "gaming" truly is a concern.

  Personally, I don't see gaming as a concern - because ECP is not to say whether an editor is productive or not - just that they've at least spent more time here than the 4 days/10 edits for autoconfirmed. Even if they gamed it, so what? If they are disruptive, we have processes to deal with that already (such as Arb Enforcement for Contentious Topics, AN(/I) for other behavioral issues, etc.) and I have seen no evidence that those areas are failing to deal with problematic editors. Ultimately, I feel the people arguing to make it harder to get misunderstand its purpose - which is not to segregate editors into productive/non-productive, but is to merely make sure someone who is still brand new can't just hop in to certain pages/topic areas. It's in the name - extended confirmed. A confirmed/autoconfirmed editor is not someone who is guaranteed to be productive - they're just someone who has not made an account an hour ago and has at least some experience with the edit window so they're less likely to "accidentally" delete text or mess something up because they don't understand the edit window. Likewise, EC is just that, but with a bit longer and a bit more edits under their belt. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 05:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Hear hear. Curbon7 (talk) 06:15, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@BilledMammal:, I agree that people are not breaking any policies by "gaming" ECP. For interest, for your minimum byte size considerations, some plots of the first 600 (or less) edits for a few editors who were blocked as socks. The signals are quite diverse. Sean.hoyland (talk) 13:47, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think they [good faith editors] trickle into contentious topic areas organically and don't even notice ECP because they will already have crossed the barrier editing the millions of other articles in good faith. Many (maybe even a majority, though I can't say for sure) high edit-count editors who work in ECP areas tend to limit their edits almost exclusively to these areas, sometimes on a daily basis for years on end. We certainly don't question the extent of these editors' good faith on the basis of where they choose to spend their editing efforts. I don't see why we can't extend the same courtesy to new editors. For example, in your first 500 edits, you made changes to articles which are today ECP. As far as I know, nobody questioned your good faith on the basis of the areas where you chose to start editing. We should continue that with new editors. spintheer (talk) 06:00, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Spintheer:, I understand this way of thinking, but "I don't see" is not a good state to be in when you are under attack and thinking about countermeasures. Here is an example where you would have been wrong over a thousand times just for one person employing deception via sockpuppetry to edit in the PIA topic area. Here's another, and another, and another, and it just goes on and on, dishonest people exploiting weaknesses in the ways we guard content. To slightly correct the record for your entertainment, in my case, although it long predated the Arbcom ECP remedy, lots of people questioned my good faithiness, made all sorts of dumb and confusing accusations together with a sprinkling of the occasional threats of violence. But it makes no difference to me whether people question my good faith. Good for them, everyone should question everything all the time, including everything they believe to be true about the world and themself. Assuming anything, including good faith, tells me nothing useful about an editor. The relevant question for me is whether a person is complying with the rules, all of the rules, including rules against advocacy and the use of deception. There need to be countermeasures. There is agreement on that at least. There need to be countermeasures because the strength of the attractive force that content exerts on editors is apparently, in a large number of cases, inversely proportional to their capacity to comply with section 3.3 of the Universal Code of Conduct. I don't know what those countermeasures should be. ECP is not an effective countermeasure. AGF is not an effective countermeasure. Quite the opposite. It is something that is exploited. Rules need to deal with the unpleasant reality rather than a faith based optimistic model of Wikipedia. Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:38, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see new measures tested, alternatives or additions to ECP, things that try to address root causes. Unfortunately, I lack the imagination to think of them.

e.g.

* A test that ensures that an editor understands that they must comply with section 3.3 of the Universal Code of Conduct all the time i.e. they understand and accept that they can't convolve their biases with content, regardless of whether it is in good faith or bad faith.

* A place to report non-compliance with section 3.3 that handles reports as routinely as reports of non-compliance with things like revert rules, civility rules etc.

* Routine frictionless use of checkuser in contentious topic areas i.e. effectively make fishing a countermeasure (I'm sure there are arguments against this that I would probably find unconvincing).

But tweaking ECP wouldn't hurt. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sean.hoyland, UCOC 3.3 is the section about "Deliberately introducing biased, false, inaccurate or inappropriate content" and "Systematically manipulating content to favour specific interpretations of facts or points of view" (among other things). Are you mostly concerned about POV pushing?

On the assumption that you're thinking about that (and not, e.g., about 3.3's prohibition of hate speech), then I think that it's important to remember that one person's POV pushing is another's genuine attempt to help Wikipedia.

If the article seems too "red" to you, then you try to make it more balanced. And the next person thinks your version is too "blue" and tries to make it more balanced ...which now looks too "red" to you again. This is 100% good-faith editing. It's not all editing in compliance with the community's own POV about what "color" the subject Really™ Is, but it is good-faith editing, and nobody's exploiting anything here. We're all just trying to do our best.

If we keep at it, with just a little intellectual humility (like many Wikipedians, I am confident that I am always right; also, I have been wrong in the past, and it might happen again) and a little willingness to learn (huh, I never thought about it from that angle before), then we usually end up with a better article than if we kick out all the editors who disagree with us or challenge the article's neutrality. Sometimes that's hard. Sometimes we're in the wrong space emotionally to see beyond our own POV. Our needs can overwhelm our ability to understand someone else's view.

But those needs can be managed. We can have a group writing an emotional subject like Mother that includes editors with every type of parents as well as every type of family member themselves. We end up with a better article than if we leave the article entirely to the starry-eyed would-be mother, or to the child abuse survivor, or to the father. What we can't do, though, is do that work without going through the effort of working with other humans. https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/the-lonely-work-of-moderating-hacker-news talks about an approach to moderating group chats that I think is very similar to our aspirations. The net result is that it's a long game that requires a lot of investment in individual education. Every single editor has to be brought through the process: "Oh, I see. You think this, because you are looking it at from the POV of poverty. Okay, I'm looking at this subject from the POV of personal fulfillment. Can we find a way to fit both of these views into the article?"

I think we keep hoping for a model of "everyone can edit, but it won't be a big, time-sucking, energy-draining endeavor". This is not realistic. Democracy does not have a monopoly on being "noisy and messy and complicated". Wikipedia is all of those things, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:12, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing:, well, don't get me started on modelling the dynamics of the system over time or I'll be here all day.

• I'm mostly concerned about the consequences of there being 2 classes of editors - a class that must follow the rules because sanctions have consequences for them and a class that is unaffected by rules because they reincarnate in sock form. The existence of 2 classes has a significant impact on the dynamics of the system at all times scales, at a particular article at a particular time for example and over long time scales.
• I'm also concerned about POV pushing, not because I have opinions that differ from other people or because of something like a community POV. A reason POV pushing is significant for me is captured by the notion of genetic drift, because just like allele frequency, the incremental corrective processes that move the content dot towards policy compliance, are critically dependent on population size. I don't believe that the population size is large enough to do that in the PIA topic area for example in many cases. And this is another area where the existence of a class of disposable accounts can have a influence on the dynamics. 
• There is the idealized spherical cow type model of the dynamics of Wikipedia. I understand this is the way many people think about things like neutrality and completeness in Wikipedia, as an emergent property of the system. It's an optimistic model and perhaps it is a good first approximation in the majority of cases over long time scales. But what I would say is, if someone thinks they have a decent model of the dynamics in Wikipedia, it probably doesn't work in the PIA topic area. The dynamics are more complicated and diverse, noisy and messy as you say.
• Simple optimistic models have all sorts of assumptions that are not always valid e.g. 

• The notion of a shared objective function, that the system has a single attractor, that individuals acting in good faith are all trying to nudge things towards it. This is observably not the case, and we know that because we can observe efforts to push content up the hill, away from what sources say.
• That we are dealing with individuals where there is a one-to-one mapping between an account and a person. Neither of these things are true in all cases. There is account sharing and coordination between account holders to push the dot up the hill to a preferred location inconsistent with policy. We know this is the case. 
• That the dynamics moves the content dot towards policy compliance over time because of the interactions of many competing agents. Maybe, but what we also observe is instabilities rather than gradual movement towards an equilibrium, again, often because of the existence of 2 classes of agent. These instabilities manifest as things like rapid transitions of content between 2 states via edit warring, over the presence or absence of a word for example.

• As a general point, it's probably true to say that nobody can control the dynamics. They're too complicated and we're not that smart. Attempts to steer things in a direction will probably fail. What can be done though is to try to control what we have the power to control, the behavior of individual agents, the editors, to make sure that they follow the rules, all of the rules, in the hope that what emerges is okay. I look to other complex systems made up of many interacting agents that are meant to have a shared objective function but in fact have complicated competing interests, social insects in colonies where the queen mated with many different males for example. There is misalignment between the interests of subsets of workers. How do they deal with this conundrum? They invest a great deal of energy in worker policing to make sure everyone is following the same set of rules. Sean.hoyland (talk) 07:06, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sean, I agree with basically everything you say, except that I prefer to use a Spherical frictionless chicken in my models. ;-)

1. We already have two classes of editors: Those of us with social capital, and everyone else. Disposable accounts are a thing, but they are primarily a thing for spam, rather than geopolitical POV pushing, especially when non-ECP editors get kicked out of discussions
2. One of my concerns about the ECP approach is that it reduces the size of the pool that could edit PIA articles. IMO we need some limits, but we might actually benefit from more editors there, rather than fewer. See Template:Registered editors by edit count – click to Table 2 if you want to see the numbers calculated against those who have made 1+ edits, rather than those who managed to figure out Special:CreateAccount. BTW, while 14 million accounts have made 1+ edit ever, only about 800K made 1+ edit last year, and about half of those never came back after the first day. User:WhatamIdoing/I am going to die compares this against what it would take to replace an editor like me.
3. I think you are right about not everyone prioritizing the same goals in exactly the same ways. In other areas, I have seen editors make decisions based on a desire to influence sources. For example, years ago, some editors were upset with a source about Chemotherapy. The source wasn't wrong (i.e., chemo is vital for some forms of cancer and has limited value for others), but they were upset about the overall value (specifically, chemo is vital for uncommon forms of cancer and has limited value for common forms, which means that the "median" patient probably gets a smaller benefit than they believe they're getting). They were doubly upset that since the Wikipedia article started citing this paper, the paper had been cited several more times in the formal literature, and they suspected that these authors were finding the source in the Wikipedia article. So we removed it, because editors wanted to influence future sources. OTOH, I don't think this was a case of trying to push content up the hill, away from what sources say. I think it was an attempt to push the content towards "alignment with the sources I happen to be familiar with" (e.g., an oncology textbook that emphasizes the importance of chemotherapy as one part of a comprehensive treatment plan, but never tried to calculate the isolated benefit of just the one part).
   I assume that the same thing happens in many areas: The politician wants the article to say "known for freedom" instead of "known for conspiracy theories"; the company wants the article to say "fourth largest producer of widgets" instead of "responsible for the massive pollution scandal"; and presumably everyone on all sides of PIA want their side to be held up as the One True™ Righteous Cause. But I still think that the article will be better if people from all those sides talk it through, than if I get to decide on my own what the article(s) will say. (There's an open question about whether we will be better off, as these conversations are doubtless wearing and sometimes painful for the community members involved, but I am convinced that WP:YESPOV is correct about what's best for the article.)
4. Strict rule enforcement is also wearing and sometimes painful, and I'm not sure that it's always humane. When someone is terribly upset, it might be better to gently and privately encourage them to take a break than to sanction them for experiencing reasonable emotions. Right now, we likely have people editing PIA articles who are mourning family members, and many more who are a little more distantly but still significantly affected. When people are being told that their lives don't matter because they have the 'wrong' ethnicity, religion, or nationality, we can't expect them to be totally impersonal about it. The 2024 United States presidential election is being written by editors who are afraid about what will happen if the wrong guy gets re-elected, based on sources written by authors who are afraid about the same thing, and we expect this to just get worse. We have some young trans editors who are very upset about the Cass Review, which looks like a harbinger of a worldwide shift in the way gender care has been handled, and they're watching this unfold and doubtless thinking that the very thing they valued most when they were trans teens is being denied to the next generation, just because it has only been proven to be very, very, very wanted by the trans teens, which the establishment doesn't care about, and not proven to have certain practical long-term outcomes that the establishment does care about. We could kick all of these affected people out of these articles, but (a) that leaves us with a smaller population working on them, (b) it leaves us with fewer voices for certain POVs, (c) we'll probably end up with worse articles as a result, and (d) it doesn't seem very kind – or effective, when you think about the socking problem – to tell people to go away from the thing they most care about.

WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this intended only for AI area? ECP is broader than that, although AI is Arbcom specified.Selfstudier (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would have to be all areas - I don't think there is a reasonable way to separate it. BilledMammal (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure this would make much of a difference. The "half in the mainspace" rule will likely make no significant difference, as editing the mainspace is what newer editors do. The "big edits" rule can be gamed; just hang out at RecentChanges for a few days to find blanking vandals, or run a script to add citation templates to articles. Two or three copies of {{cite web}} will usually produce the desired number of bytes.

ECP originally wasn't based on any sort of evidence that 500 was better than any other number, and this is also not based on any sort of evidence. I suggest that you collect some numbers. For example, we know that during 2023, about 800,000 accounts made 1+ edits (new and old accounts together). We also know that very few of those 800,000 editors have achieved ECP status. Can we figure out how many editors achieved ECP in 2023, and then how many would have done so, under the proposed rules? The first should be pretty straightforward; just figure out how many people in this list created their accounts during 2023. It's probably a bit more than half a percent of those who edited at all, so I'd expect an answer around 4K or so. I'm not sure what it would take to check the new requirements, but you only have to check them for the people who achieved ECP last year, because the ~795,000 editors who either already had it, or who didn't manage to make 500 edits yet, wouldn't be affected by these changes anyway.

If very few would be affected, then what's the point? It'd just be rearranging the deck chairs. But if a lot of editors would be affected, we will have to ask ourselves whether we truly want our small percentage of eligible editors to be even smaller. Our dispute resolution processes are built on the principle that when we have problems like POV pushing, we generally need more eyes on the situation, rather than fewer. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:19, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I ran some queries. There were 1968288 accounts created in 2023 (UTC), excluding any blocked with the "hideuser" option. 487317 have made at least one edit since creation (note that edit may have been in 2024). 1776 have edited at least 500 times since creation, 1773 more than 500 times. 1691 are currently extendedconfirmed; this link currently shows those 1691, plus the first from 2024 and the last from 2022 (note it displays the creation dates in your configured timezone rather than UTC). There are 106 accounts with at least 500 edits that aren't in the group, presumably most because they haven't made a 501st edit since reaching the 30 days. The 21 accounts in the group without 500 edits were manually granted extendedconfirmed. Anomie⚔ 13:40, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Is there any way to test those 'new' (2023) extended-confirmed accounts against the proposed rules, without having to do it manually? It's possible to do 2K if we have to, but that could easily take a week of full-time work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, someone could write code implementing whichever checks are proposed, and then run that list of users through the check. The above discussion is a bit too TL;DR for me personally to want to try to extract what the proposal(s) is/are though. But as a quick check, it seems 401 of the now-1693 extendedconfirmed accounts registered in 2023 have made fewer than 500 mainspace edits, and 235 have made fewer than 500 edits when excluding only the User and Draft namespaces (294 when also excluding User talk and Draft talk). Here's a query listing them: quarry:query/84853. Anomie⚔ 12:07, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks v much for putting some numbers to this. Selfstudier (talk) 12:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A recent "feature" on article pages (PC, Chrome) is an indelible box near the top left of article space, giving access to the list of headings. This is an unhelpful irritant to someone who simply wants to read an article, as it obscures the first words of several lines. Assuming it's a useful feature, can it be made minimizable or semi-transparent and becomes opaque when moused-over ? Doug butler (talk) 15:02, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing this in Firefox or Chromium on Linux, logged in or logged out, using monboook, vector or vector2022 skins. If it is something that's from Wikipedia rather than your browser this is a question that's better suited to the technical village pump or phabricator than this board. Thryduulf (talk) 15:20, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug butler, are you seeing something like this, at the top of World? This screenshot shows the table of contents covering up part of the first paragraph. If you click the button right next to the =World= title, it will collapse. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:59, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, exactly that box, functions the same, but on article space, covering the first three or four letters on the first two or three lines of text (Vector (2022) everything vanilla standard). When an article is opened, the three dotted lines symbol is there alongside the title of the article, then appears (as my problematic box) as soon as I scroll down sufficiently that the title line is goes off-screen. Doug butler (talk) 23:40, 13 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug butler, please try this link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Viner?safemode=1

The safemode=1 bit will screw up the infobox formatting, but don't worry about that. Just see if that fixes the problem or if the problem is unchanged. (I expect it to be unchanged, but the answer will tell us who to contact about getting it fixed.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Behavior of that box exactly as before. Doug butler (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then I think we want @SGrabarczuk (WMF) and @Jdlrobson from the Web team. You said you're using Chrome on a PC. What version for Chrome and for Windows?

Does this behavior change if you change the size or zoom of the window/screen? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Windows 10 Pro 22H2 installed 25 July 2020 on Lenovo 4205 laptop i5

Chrome is up to date:

Version 126.0.6478.127 (Official Build) (64-bit) Doug butler (talk) 01:12, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, my problem box remains in the same position on the screen as I scroll down through the article, so it masks just the leftmost three or four letters on the top two or three lines, assuming "Small" text selected. The box remains the same screen size with "Standard" or "Large" text selected. Size of the box increases and decreases proportionately with text size as Ctrl+ or Ctrl- invoked. Doug butler (talk) 01:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is included within Vector 2022 when the screen size is too small for a sticky header. To make the button semi-transparent unless hovered, add the following CSS to your personal CSS for Vector 2022:

#vector-page-titlebar-toc {
  opacity: 50%;
}
#vector-page-titlebar-toc:hover {
  opacity: inherit;
}

I'll see if I can create a patchset for this. Aaron Liu (talk) 02:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, add the following as well if you want it to be opaque when extended:

#vector-page-titlebar-toc:active {
  opacity: inherit;
}

Aaron Liu (talk) 03:15, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've opened the task, submitted the patch, and attached a {{tracked}} before the opening... ask. Aaron Liu (talk) 03:27, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I might leave CSS alone and report back ? Should I subscribe to the task ? As you can tell, I'm not at all HTML-savvy. Doug butler (talk) 04:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You don't have to subscribe to the task, but you're welcome to.

If you don't feel any need to have this solved urgently, then you could do nothing, and perhaps it will get fixed for everyone on an upcoming WP:THURSDAY. If you want it fixed sooner than that, then updating your account files will fix it just for your account. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:47, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was an inconvenience, is all, and another week is not a problem. Thanks all for taking it seriously — most impressive service. Doug butler (talk) 10:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recently corrected a dead link where the only change needed was to change the scheme from HTTP to HTTPS. It should be possible to write a bot that will automatically check each dead link with an http scheme and test whether changing the scheme to https resolves the issue. I'm not sure whther the process should be fully automatic or require using the Mark IV eyeball before confirming the changes. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 08:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems like a good idea. I wonder if it would be possible to incorporate into an existing bot that scans for and fixes dead link like InternetArchiveBot operated by Cyberpower678 and Harej? Thryduulf (talk) 09:16, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User:GreenC may also be a botop interested in this problem, but I do see a potential major issue, in that bots are generally incapable of determining whether a link is truly live: custom 404s and redirects to domain roots return "live" HTTP codes similar to a fully functional link that supports a cited claim. This would definitely be a task that requires supervision, to avoid changing link status from dead just because HTTPS returns a custom 404 instead of a pure HTTP code to the same effect. Folly Mox (talk) 14:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I already do this with WaybackMedic at WP:URLREQ on a per domain and per request basis.

It's actually very rare for a http to be dead and a https live. It can also happen in reverse for example http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/news/2003/0722/1584068.html works but https://static.espn.go.com/nfl/news/2003/0722/1584068.html gives a security error due to a misconfigured site, although if you "accept the risk" it will work, but then brings up a slightly different page. The variety of problems with URLs is infinite, and most of them have problems, mostly related to this kind of stuff: WP:LINKROT#Glossary

Anyway, if there is a problem with a domain, report it to URLREQ. -- GreenC 14:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The CS1 and CS2 templates have parameters to associate a URL with a text parameter, e.g., |section-url=. Typically these are derived from |url= by adding a fragment, e.g., #page=foo for a page within a PDF. It would make editing easier if there were a more compact way to express such URLs. Two options would be

1. Allow, e.g., |section-url=#fragment, as a request to use the fragment with the |url= value prepended.
2. Add new parameters, e.g., |section-frag=fragment, |section-PDF-page=pageno.

What's the best path forward? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This can create problems elsewhere with tools when the URL is abstracted. The problem of abstracting URLs occurs in 100s if not 1000s of specialized templates that most tools do not support (there are too many) and thus bots and tools don't maintain the URLs, creating link rot, failure to account, etc.. It's almost always best to state URLs in literal form so standard tools can access them. -- GreenC 16:05, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds more like an argument for than an argument against. Having the URL path on only one parameter solves the problem of, e.g., updating |url= but forgetting to update |section-url=.

A similar problem occurs when a page number is specified as an external link; updating |url=https://path does not automatically update [http://path#page=PDF-page printed-page], although in this case a solution seems less obvious. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:54, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that |section-url= is an alias of |chapter-url=, and chapter urls are not always on the same web page as the main body of the document being sourced. If one were to implement a shorter syntax of this type, you would not need new parameters as you propose, the hash character should be signal enough, as it is an invalid character in the content of a url that lacks a fragment. Mathglot (talk) 19:52, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I meant for the two options to be mutually exclusive in regards to each specific parameter.

Yes, a leading hash is not valid in a URL, making it trivial to distinguish between a URL and a bare fragment. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Have you already looked at Wikipedia:Citing sources#Links and ID numbers, which includes information about multiple ways to link to specific pages, giving examples for PDFs and Google Books? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I use CS1 and CS2 templates, and using |url=url with |title=title seems cleaner than using |title=[url title]. I do use explicit external lenks for, e.g., |page=. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Wikimedia Foundation, my name is Jack from Israel and I would like to talk to you about a very important topic that has never been mentioned almost at all. In the United States they say the name Jesus, the "J" becomes a "Y" and thus the name Yesus or "Jesus" was created. Anti-Christian elements criticize his imposition on his name and omitted the last letter in the name of Yeshua and turned it into the name "Yeshu" as a derogatory word, when the word Yeshu becomes an initials and its meaning becomes the phrase "yimakh shemo v'zikhro", This was mentioned in all the Hebrew scriptures and also in the wikipedia. In my opinion it is not even necessary to explain why this topic is so important and most importantly to change the value of his name from "Yeshu (ישו)" to "Yeshua (ישוע)". But here are some explanations from my own why it is so important; First, changing a person's name can damage history, also changing Napoleon's name can damage the future reporters and also lead to the end of the being Napoleon, we would not want to erase a person like this from our history and forget him on the other hand, today it can be seen that 80% of the people of the State of Israel do not know His real name and they even call him in the derogatory word "yimakh shemo v'zikhro" Wikipedia should tell us (the people), Correct information, up-to-date, and true information! And a person who doesn't understand what a certain entry means, like for example "Yeshua" is welcome to do Wikipedia, that's what you were created for, right? When a person does not know what Yeshua word means, he can do Wikipedia and understand. Secondly, the moral and social level involved, changing a person's name and turning it into a derogatory word looks like this ("yimakh shemo v'zikhro") an injury to Christianity as a whole, disrespects the person (Jesus) and humanity, which colludes with deranged Messianic rabbis who devote their entire lives to inventing lies about Christianity . Does Wikipedia, are you members of the Wikimedia Foundation, agree with these values? In this way, it is like taking the name of something and changing or removing or adding a letter to its name, this can lead to complete oblivion of the person. As can lead to the future bringing of precious Hebrew reporters, and even the rewriting of the New Testament and changing its future name from Yeshua to Yeshu. We don't see it now, but in the course of the years and the progress of evolution, where books will become digital material and thus bring Wikipedia as the most authoritative source on the Internet; What will be created by this is an injury to the name of Jesus and also an injury to the values ​​of history. In addition, here is an article that was written on Wikipedia in 2017 but did not receive much attention: "As a free encyclopedia, we are supposed to meet certain standards. These standards should on the one hand be professional and on the other hand take into account the reading public. I will point out facts: regardless of the name, the entry is currently one of the poorest in Wikipedia on the subject when it includes a list of sources that is so sparse on one of the entities (Note that I did not use the word people so as not to offend, of course) the important ones in humanity history. In addition, in my humble opinion, the Hebrew Wikipedia is the only one that uses a historical derogatory word. I understand that for a large part of you it is not perceived as a derogatory word, but it is certainly possible that a large part of the population does. In fact, it is so unfortunate because it is also about "gypsies", one of the most common derogatory words in connection with peoples in the world that people use without noticing. On the one hand, Wikipedia should champion the professional name, which is Yeshua, and on the other hand, it should champion the non-blatant name, which surprisingly ( cynicism) is also Yeshu. In fact, every time a discussion about the name of the entry comes up, we must reject the request, which comes up again and again, and it changes the name of the entry. The fact that we as Wikipedians receive these complaints over and over again only exacerbates the situation and presents us in a negative light My hypothesis is that it will not offend a person if the name of the entry is Yeshua, but indeed it will be if it is the name Yeshu. We, as Wikipedians, allow the name of the entry to continue, so it is possible that we are actually hurting other people's feelings, even if unintentionally..." In conclusion, changing the name of Yeshua(ישוע) to Yeshu(ישו) is not only an injury to Christianity as a whole, to human dignity, it is also an injury to history itself and can even cause major problems from this issue. Therefore I ask the Christians who are reading this, will you allow the people to blaspheme the name of Jesus? Will Wikipedia give priority to such a disgrace? That's why I ask in every language of request, to change the word "Yeshu" to the word "Yeshua" in the Hebrew values I would love it if you read and contact me, many thanks Jack 87.71.160.172 (talk) 22:51, 20 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you're hoping for a constructive response, you might want to consider WP:TEXTWALL. And in the future, consider using paragraphs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I ask not to judge my writing.

Thank! Appspame (talk) 20:40, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From what I have been able to gather, you have a problem with the way the Hebrew (or transliterated Hebrew) for Jesus of Nazareth is written in at least some (all?) articles? From what I can see (MOS:JESUS) we don't have a site-wide consensus on how the name should be presented in Hebrew. As such, how it is referred to in any particular article will depend on the sources being used for the information - if the sources use one transliteration then that's fine to use. That said, I appreciate that this IP believes one spelling of it (in Hebrew or transliterated Hebrew) to be offensive to some at least. I can't tell if the IP is complaining about something solely present on Hebrew Wikipedia (if so we can't really do much), but it may be a good idea to add something to MOS:JESUS as to how we refer to the person - do we always use the English name "Jesus (of Nazareth)", do we sometimes use the Hebrew name, and if the second, what spelling/transliteration do we use? I'll be leaving a note on the IP's talkpage to ask them to clarify their issue. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 07:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like there is some related information in Yeshu. It appears that this set of letters was used in one (i.e., a single) medieval-era Masekhet as an acronym rather than/as a pun on the name, and a 17th-century German man, Johann Andreas Eisenmenger pushed the idea that this spelling is always insulting, along with quite a lot of errors, bigotry, and nonsense.

Some modern writers use the difference between Yeshua and Yeshu to distinguish between Jesus of Nazareth and all of the (many) other people with the same given name ("Joshua" being the most common English spelling). If that is the widely accepted convention in Hebrew, then I would expect that not following it would be confusing to readers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 09:05, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to your opinion, the two main reasons why you do not want to change the name from Yeshu to Yeshua are:

The first was that the use of the name Joshua can cause confusion with other names in history, many rabbis who use this claim as a cover for changing his name Yeshua to Jesus (yimakh shemo v'zikhro).

This claim is completely absurd and can be refuted in several ways.

The first, the most well-known example (which occurs mainly among the rabbis), is the change of the name Yeshu to Yeshua, so that they do not get confused between the name *Joshua* and Yeshua, which is completely absurd in the English language and also in the Hebrew language, it does not come out or sound the same, the addition of the letter " The "in the King of God" can change the spelling completely, (Yeshua - *Yehósua*), another example, changing a name, dropping a letter changes the name completely, for example Jack-Jacek, one can understand the essential difference between the two names, thus expanding the claim. Of course there are other examples in this regard, but I will not list them...

Second claim, "Israeli society is already used to the word "Yeshu", and this is also a rather absurd claim, as if a society decides to change the name of something (and something else very important throughout history) collectively, it does not really change its name, like this friend that everyone calls him by a nickname, but finally his original name will appear on his ID card. And so is Wikipedia, which is supposed to serve as an identity card of values; And the kind of value and also Yeshua.

In addition, if any company decides to boycott any country, and even create a political conflict against it-

A. This does not mean that it is impossible to change the situation and bring it to a better two-state situation.

B. The mere fact that one country decides to ignore another country does not make the other country non-existent.

And likewise his name, if a company of people decides to reverse the name of Yeshua and become the word "Yeshu" it did not reduce his name to Yeshu!

Also, Wikipedia must adhere to the correct values ​​and provide correct and reliable information.

In addition, you wrote "there is not much to be done if this"

I am personally ready to sit down and change all the values ​​in which the word Yeshu appears, and I also recommend to the members of the Wikimedia Foundation in Israel to make an effort to correct the values.

I ask not to ignore the first message I posted.

Thank Jack. Appspame (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, I agree with Gråbergs Gråa Sång that the WP:TEXTWALL makes it hard to read.

Second, This was mentioned in all the Hebrew scriptures is anachronistic; the Hebrew scripture were closed long before his time. As for the Talmud, the date that I have seen for the early part, the Mishna, is 200 CE, surely a bit late to have influenced the spelling in the Christian scriptures.

Third, if there are surviving Aramaic copies of the Christian scriptures then the name written there should be used. Otherwise, the Greek transliteration now accepted in Christianity should be used.

Do you have a RS for the original name being ישוע? Or for the Christian fathers adopting יִמַּח שְׁמוֹ וְזִכְרוֹ (abbreviated יש"ו) as his name? -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 09:18, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My intention is that it could lead to the rewriting of the New Testament, in the name of technological progress... What could be written by a Jew who does not know the true name of Yeshua and will therefore call his false name Yeshu Appspame (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Judaism there is such a thing called the Ark of the Covenant where every rabbi can add more and more and more books the Hebrew Scriptures do not close they continue. The very fact that you say such a thing means that you know nothing and a half about Judaism or about the State of Israel itself. You can ask any rabbi and he will answer it for you. (cf. Sifrei Kodesh entry) Appspame (talk) 08:11, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another example of a book written in the last 500 years Shulchan Aruch is a very important book for Judaism! So much so that it even entered part of it into the Pesach legend! Appspame (talk) 08:14, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In general, the very thought that they took the name of a historical figure and simply changed his name definitively does not excite you, the use of the wrong name can lead to historical disruptions and surely the website Wikipedia, which should lead to one of the most authoritative sites for learning on the Internet, gives the wrong name of some person throughout history  ? If the name Napoleon was written incorrectly you would correct it correctly and if any other name was written incorrectly you would correct it.! But when it comes to this name, suddenly there is a problem, right?! Appspame (talk) 20:44, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I specifically turned to you because I know that you are people with logical considerations, people who know some logic in their lives. You can admit that you simply do not have the strength to change all the names on Wikipedia to their true value. I actually did not address the Israeli community because the Israeli community does not understand the value of the importance of such a thing, but you who live in the United States should know the value of the importance of such a thing! This is not only a disruption of history, it is also an injury to the person's name. Appspame (talk) 20:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Respectfully, there is no "true value" to which we should change everything on Wikipedia. Names have been transliterated and written different ways in various languages throughout the centuries, and Wikipedia relies on verifiability, not truth. If you want this change to be made, claiming that it is the "true" spelling isn't enough, you need to provide us with sources actually using it as the Hebrew spelling. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't the New Testament the most correct spelling for Jesus' name? The rest of the inscriptions are actually under the inscriptions of rabbis or rabbis that were written after the New Testament. The oldest inscription in which the name Jesus was mentioned was the New Testament. Appspame (talk) 21:41, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, it is absolutely absurd that you need to bring evidence for the name of Jesus, that you can simply go to the place where he mentioned his name for the first time in the New Testament! This is the oldest source that mentions his name, and also it should be brought to the most authoritative place regarding his name, and also an attribution of a name change written about 500 after his death, should not be attributed any meaning to it. If so, can you bring me a Hebrew source older than the New Testament that attributes his name, and also says that his name is Yeshu...? Appspame (talk) 21:47, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are many editions of the New Testament, some of which use one spelling. Even if you took the oldest edition, that one would have several words spelt according to the conventions of the time instead of modern Hebrew. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In Hebrew we have two types of new house, the first is modern Hebrew and in biblical Hebrew the word Yeshu does not appear in both of them Appspame (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You say that there are other versions of the New Testament in an older way in Hebrew, I want you to find me an older New Testament in which the word Yeshu is written, if you do not find it, this makes the most recent existing New Testament the oldest place where his name was mentioned. Any claim that is not a counterquote is considered to be evasion Appspame (talk) 22:11, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can also invent that there is an older inscription past the life of Alexander the Great and it says his name Mordechai Reuveni. That doesn't make it right! Appspame (talk) 22:14, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matthew 1:16... (and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.)

מתי 1:16... ("יַעֲקֺב הוֹלִיד אֶת יוֹסֵף בַּעַל מִרְיָם, אֲשֶׁר מִמֶּנָּה נוֹלַד יֵשׁוּעַ הַנִּקְרָא מָשִׁיחַ." ) Appspame (User talk:Appspame|talk]]) 22:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States they say the name Jesus, the "J" becomes a "Y" and thus the name Yesus or "Jesus" was created. What?? —Tamfang (talk) 06:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not in Hebrew. Cullen328 (talk) 22:15, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But I'm not looking for the value in Greek, I'm looking for it in Hebrew, in Hebrew they write Yeshua, according to the oldest inscription the New Home in Hebrew! Appspame (talk) 22:28, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I didn't want to search in Greek I would contact you with a Greek caption, but I'm searching in Hebrew Appspame (talk) 22:30, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you insist so much on not changing the name of the entry, and admitting mistakes?, I suggest you also research the issue and go to the Igod.com website, which explains some important topics in the Bible and the New Testament! Appspame (talk) 22:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appspame, nobody can tell from your overly lengthy commentary which specific articles here on the English Wikipedia you propose to change and which reliable sources you propose to cite. We cannot help you with any other language version of Wikipedia. You need to be far more concise and clear. Cullen328 (talk) 01:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll try it, the oldest Hebrew source in which the name Jesus appears is found in the New Testament. The New Testament is not found in the entire state of Israel where the word Yeshu appears, Wikipedia relies on older writings written about 500 years after Jesus and 1500 years written by Rabbis. I am personally ready to change the values in which this disgrace appears and change his real name from Yeshu to Yeshua all I need you to do is to approve me thank you! Appspame (talk) 08:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I brought all the proofs, I brought all the explanations!... Appspame (talk) 08:02, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Appspame, I guess that I need to repeat my questions since you failed to answer the first time. Which specific articles here on the English Wikipedia do you propose to change and which specific reliable sources do you propose to cite? Vague, sweeping claims are worthless here. Please produce the specifics, or move on to something else. Cullen328 (talk) 08:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I'd love to talk about it a little more I want to really understand what is the point where you don't want to change his name to his real name? the New Testament because it is a faithful place, and if you don't want to take the New Testament it is a faithful place, the place after which it was written was the Koran, also in the Koran his name is mentioned and guess what his name is Yeshua, my first point is that it is forbidden to change a historical detail, to come and say that there is not enough evidence to prove that it is a historical detail whose name Was Yeshua it's like coming and saying that there is not enough historical evidence of Napoleon's name was Napoleon. The books of the New Testament are not only "books of stories" but also historical books that tell us about the First Temple period here in Jerusalem. My second point is that if a society is used to something it doesn't mean that you can't just change it, for example if South Africa is used to massacres and genocide, doesn't that mean you can't change it and just leave it as it is? So you can also change! I'm trying to understand why you are so opposed to this question mark I brought proofs I brought points for thought but you decide to ignore them why?! It's about my English, I'm very sorry, it's my English, after all, I live in Israel, be patient with me, thank you. And once again, it's important for me to point out that I don't come from a place of anger, I come from a place of disappointment, disappointment that I even have to come and say such a thing to come and wake up people's eyes and explain to them that my name is my name, and my name is not what changed it, that's why it gives me a feeling of disappointment Towards myself, towards humanity and towards Wikipedia which cooperates with unreal and incorrect values! More than that, you take values that were written exclusively in Hebrew by messianic rabbis and not by people who actually knew Christianity and who knew who Jesus is, so I think that your faithful source are not instructive, but because they were written by people who hate the New Testament and hate Jesus and that's how they are Let his name be known. In the same scripture where the name Yeshu was written, there were also lies written about him and lies also about the New Testament by those people who did not even dare to open the New Testament or read from it or understand it. And you call them a faithful source? Appspame (talk) 09:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS applies to what you want to be done on the English Wikipedia, whatever that is? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, this is not the Wikimedia Foundation (you wrote "Hello Wikimedia Foundation" in your OP), this is more like the en-WP Wikipedia community, or at least the parts of it that noticed this thread and decided to write a reply.

My understanding so far is that you want every Wikipedia-article, in any language, that includes a Hebrew spelling of Jesus, to use the Hebrew spelling you prefer. That is not something en-WP can decide, and while you can try to contact the Wikimedia Foundation, it's not an issue I think they'll consider their business, they generally leave Wikipedia content to the various Wikipedia communities. Hope this helps some. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't you the Wikimedia Foundation?! So what good are you to me?! Appspame (talk) 14:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Like someone once wrote, that is the question. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:18, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What?.... Appspame (talk) 14:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is written by thousands of volunteers. The Wikimedia Foundation maintains its infrastructure, not its content. —Tamfang (talk) 06:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We are not the Wikimedia Foundation. We are the volunteers who actually do the work. The Wikimedia Foundation just handles funding and legal issues; it doesn't actually control the content of Wikipedia at all. You're talking to the right people if you want to change something, but Wikipedia makes changes by WP:CONSENSUS, not by a few people who are in charge. This means we will argue about something for a long time before doing anything about it. Cremastra (talk) 07:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is the English wikipedia; Wikimedia Foundation is something entirely different. And we (TINW) are here for the benefit of the readers, not for the benefit of editors with an ax to grind, and are subject to various policies, one of which is the requirement for reliable sources as defined in WP:RS. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For the interested, related discussions on he-WP:[1][2]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: There appear to be 14 en-wiki articles where "ישו" appears. In all but possibly one a change from "ישו" would definitely not be reasonable as they either use it in contexts where that specific form is necessary and/or where the Yeshu/Yeshua::Jesus/Joshua distinction is discussed (Jews and Christmas, Public holidays in Israel, Toledot Yeshu, The Lost Tomb of Jesus, Jesus Trail, The Book of Nestor the Priest, Aleinu, Yimakh shemo, Yeshua, Yeshu, Isa (name), Arabic Name, Biblical names in their native languages). For Religious perspectives on Jesus the cited work would need to be consulted, but the way it's written suggests that it should be left as is. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 12:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: An Israeli citizen could hypothetically lobby the Israeli government to change the name of its public holiday "עליית ישו השמיימה". If -- and only if -- that effort were successful, then Public holidays in Israel could and should be modified. Getting the Israel Museum in Jerusalem to modify the Ossuary shown in The Lost Tomb of Jesus so that its caption could reflect the change is another task that a local could likewise hypothetically attempt. (TL;DR: Don't) ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 12:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense! In Israel, according to the Hebrew Language Academy, Yeshu's real name is Yeshua and you can ask the Hebrew Language Academy, they are responsible for the Hebrew language, not Wikipedia! So that Wikipedia does not only dishonor the name of the person, it also dishonors the historical value, also dishonors the Hebrew language and the Hebrew Language Academy. Appspame (talk) 14:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming you mean the Academy of the Hebrew_Language (הָאָקָדֶמְיָה לַלָּשׁוֹן הָעִבְרִית), then your assertion does not appear to be reflected in the practice of that organisation. ^~Hydronium^~Hydroxide^~(Talk)~ 14:32, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You take the names of the Catholic Christian holidays that were translated by non-Catholics and these names were never approved by the Hebrew Language Academy and you give them as an example?! What kind of example is this? You show some examples and you say, here is the name that appears here and here and only on this holiday does this name appear, perhaps only because only this holiday has been approved and translated by the academy and qualified Christian authorities! Appspame (talk) 14:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I actually chose to talk to you because I thought you were more reasonable people who know facts and live in the sand and should understand the essence of the matter! Appspame (talk) 14:26, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And once again you never answered me why you are so, so opposed to changing the name to his real name? Are there internal factors that tell you not to do such a thing, is it only because I am Israeli and you are anti-Semitic? Is it because you are against Christianity and in favor of desecrating the name of Jesus? Tell me what the real reason is that you are so opposed!? Appspame , (talk) 14:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Stop with the absurd personal attacks, Appspame. Your proposal is failing to gain support because you do not understand English Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, have not brought forward any reliable sources, and show no sign of taking on board the feedback you are receiving. You are an anonymous person and your claimed personal expertise is of no value here. Cullen328 (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Cullen328, it appears that you've accidently edited Appspame's comment to improperly add an expletive? Aaron Liu (talk) 15:59, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aaron Liu, that was an inadvertent burp from my phone. I apologize and have removed the error. Cullen328 (talk) 16:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One of the ways articles are discoverable is through wiki-links. Sometimes I come across articles that reference specific people or events, and there exists Wikipedia articles with exact matches to the inline text. This could also be a gamified task for new editors to look at proposed wiki links to be matched with inline text. It should reuse the existing visual editor interface as much as possible. Given the possibility of false/sloppy matches, these types of edits could be marked for multiple reviews, while still enable new editors to make constructive edits and have fun at it.

The main challenges I foresee are: implementing such a suggester and possibly encouraging excessive linking or worse, incorrect wiki links. ~ 🦝 Shushugah (he/him • talk) 14:09, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What you describe is almost exactly Add a link, a feature developed by the Growth team. There is a discussion about turning it on at English Wikipedia as a test, feel free to join it. Trizek_(WMF) (talk) 14:24, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]