|
IPA fot Zeev Suraski
Could someone provide the IPA for Zeev Suraski, the current article is a bit ridiculous. Thanks, JACOPLANE • 2008-06-27 10:14
Nomination for deletion
Please see: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Unification Church and antisemitism
Debresser and I are currently having a dispute at Niddah. Debresser has moved/deleted material I added about Conservative opinions from the body of the "practical law" section and moved what he kept to the "Niddah in the Conservative Movement" section. His position is that Orthodoxy is "normative Judaism", which is what the article is about, less sections specifically designated otherwise. My position is that it is a rather extreme violation of WP:NPOV to privilege Orthodox views as "normative Judaism", and that the only reasonable and feasible way to present content neutrally (about Jewish law or anything else) is to state where there is dispute among authorities in the appropriate places, with appropriate identification. Savant1984 (talk) 13:14, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that there is a challenge here. I've opened a discussion on this topic at Talk:Niddah#non-orthodox_opinions_and_practice. Joe407 (talk) 21:05, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, meet you guys there. But I have not removed material (excepts for an unrelated book review, so to speak), just moved it all neatly into the appropriate section. Debresser (talk) 23:04, 17 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We (Debresser) and I really seemed rather deadlocked over at Talk:Niddah about what's actually the quite broad issue described above. Just saying. :) Savant1984 (talk) 16:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- (Copied from the discussion page) I don't know whether Orthodox Judaism is the default in articles on Judaism here. I suspect it isn't. But in an article about a practice which is normative among Orthodox Jews, and definitely not normative among Conservative Jews, it seems fairly obvious that the Orthodox view should be presented as the default, with the Conservative view mentioned in a section of its own. To do otherwise would be giving undue weight to the Conservative view. Again, any observance of niddah whatsoever is extremely fringe among Conservative Jews. To present the Conservative view here on equal par with the Orthodox view, when Orthodox Jews universally hold the observance of niddah to be an absolute requirement, would be inappropriate. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 17:57, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Continued there. Savant1984 (talk) 18:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In my opinion this subject warrants broader discussion than an article talk page. Perhaps somebody is willing to open a new section about it here and draw the necessary attention to it. Debresser (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems that Debresser is advocating that orthodox jewish practice, culture, tradition, halacha is to be considered the standard and all other options (conservative, reform, reconstructionist, etc) are to be considered secondary. He would like to accord this status to orthodox judaism due to its long-standing nature relative to more modern forms of jewish practice. This is a challenging question on two levels. One, how can this mesh with WP:NPOV? And two, where do we draw the lines? Who gets included as "traditional" and who is "young upstart"? Where do we classify Karites? Hassidim? Post-European Brisk halachasists? Neo-carlebachian? Thoughts? Joe407 (talk) 20:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- While I really appreciate your constructive attitude, Joe407, it seems to me that you're still assuming Orthodox POV in te way you frame the question "because of its long-standing nature relative to modern forms of Jewish practice." The Orthodox-Conservative split wasn't about "forms of Jewish practice", but about whether academic-historical-critical study of the Tradition was heretical (the Orthodox POV) or praiseworthy (the Conservative POV). The difference in perspective given by these different approaches to the Tradition, in addition to the polarisation of the communities, gradually created general trends toward leniency by Conservative authorities and stringency by Orthodox ones, but there have always been Conservative authorities agreeing with the general Orthodox consensus on almost all issues, and a few brave Orthodox authorities who will concede the plausibility of certain opinions advanced by Conservative authorities. The issue is, in short, very complex. The pertinent point being here that to imply in an article that Orthodoxy is just "premodern, traditional Judaism, continued" is a violation of NPOV. Savant1984 (talk) 15:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I would say that while your viewpoint is legitimate here, to say the Orthodoxy is NOT just "premodern, traditional Judaism, continued" is also POV.
- Just as a simple point, why does the appearence of Reform in Germany and Conservative in the United States, suddenly make traditional Rabbis in Baghdad (R. Yosef) and Yemen (R. Kapach) into Orthodox rabbis?
- One other thing. In my editing of Wikipedia, I have taken statements from Maimonides and the Shulchan Aruch (commentaries included) as cites for Orthodox practice. Could I take them as cites for Conservative practice? (Perhaps you will say yes; I am interested.)
- The basic difference, in any case, is in belief as to the origin of the Torah and Talmud, as explained (without getting into minutae) in the intorduction to Maidonides' Mishneh Torah, which Orthodoxy still agrees with, but almost all Conservative Rabbis do not.Mzk1 (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree with you, certainly -- the Orthodox POV, that Orthodoxy = premodern traditional Judaism, continued -- needs to be included. It just can't be an organising principle of Wikipedia. Wikipedia needs to be neutral among such POVs. Traditionalists outside of the US and Germany became "Orthodox" essentially by the anti-JTS "Orthodox" groups convincing traditionalists in other countries that the JTS-Conservatives were, indeed, heretics. But this was a gradual process -- remember that Chief Rabbi Hertz was JTS ordained, and that JTS was actively attempting to gain legitimacy with the Chief Rabbinate of Israel through the eighties.
- Certainly the Mishneh Torah and the Shulchan Aruch are sources for normative Conservative practice.
- The account of the origin of the Pentateuch and the Mishna given in the intro to the MT are not accepted as historically accurate by any Conservative authority I'm aware of, simply because, as history, it contradicts the available evidence. Nevertheless, remember, Mzk1, that the "Orthodox" rabbis rejected the JTses as heretical well before academic criticism of Pentateuch was ever taught, so while that is a major ideological litmus test now, it wasn't then. Even Reform rabbis and institutions refused to acknowledge higher criticism of Pentateuch for decades. Again, though, the relevant thing for Wikipedia: NPOV on these matters. Savant1984 (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to make a small point that there were plenty of normal Orthodox Rabbis ordained at JTS in the earlier days. Also, there was in fact a dispute about about JTS among the Orthodox for a while. There are still a few Conservative Rabbis who believe in Torah MiSinai - from the Orthodox point of view, they are simply Orthodox rabbis, no matter what they call themselves. The "red line" is not methodology - after all, there are plenty of Orthodox Jews using "scientific" methodologies here in Israel as an academice excercise - but belief. What I am saying is, that while before the line was fuzzy (a lot of people use "heresy" rather loosely), right now it is rather clear. I would say that the theological difference between Orthodoxy and Conservative Judaism is greater than that between, say, Catholics and Lutherans. But I tend to more-or-less agree with you regarding NPOV, not as far as you take it, but for the most part. I also think Lisa makes a good point; if we mix up Orthodox and Conservative viewpoints without labling, this will mislead many people.Mzk1 (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree entirely with your characterisation of the politics of denominational labels, but it's good to know that I'm Orthodox, I guess. :) Re Lisa's point: I never introduced or proposed introducing positions held by some Conservative authorities but no Orthodox ones (at least, on the record) without clearly noting that they were Conservative. My point is merely that they should not be relegated to a separate section, while "Practical Law" and similar unqualified sections be Orthodox. Savant1984 (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to clarify, I was referring to the small number of Conservative rabbis who believe that the Torah was dictated to Moses (and possibly the last few verses to Joshua), as well as the Oral Law. I had the impression that you believed otherwise. But do you think I could get you (beg you) to comment on the section below on Homosexuality, as it touches on what we've discussed. Also, if you could give me a year before which I could consider a rabbi's opinion as being "traditional", and therefore generally applicable, I would appreciate it.Mzk1 (talk) 07:21, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I want to note that I've reported this dispute at the neutrality noticeboard, as well as at the Wikiproject:Religion board. Savant1984 (talk) 20:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update
I have fully protected this for 24 hours to prevent further edit warring. I encourage anyone familiar with the subject to shift/begin/kickstart discussion there to acheive some consensus before the protection lifts. Good luck. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The protection was in relation with another issue in that article. Perhaps somebody remembers, didn't we say that Encyclopedia of Judaism is not a reliable source? Debresser (talk) 09:52, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As I understand WP:RS, Encyclopedia of Judaism is a reliable source. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 20:57, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, {{Judaism portal}} has been nominated for deletion. 70.29.210.155 (talk) 05:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It is nominated because it isn't in use, and is replaced by
{{Portal|Judaism}}, which renders the same thing. See?
 Judaism portal Debresser (talk) 09:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Now replaced by
{{portal|Judaism}}. Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 02:47, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Since no-one said - when I asked - that I could not ask a question about a specific article here, and since we have at least one Conservative Seminary student contributing, I wanted to ask this question here.
I wish to clean up at least the Orthodox part of part of the Homosexual section of Forbidden relationships in Judaism to say something like: Orthodox Judaism, following the Talmud, absolutely prohibits...
Now it is insane to me to claim that Leviticus itself does not say the above, but since there are denominations who make this claim, I have to reckon with this. Can I least claim that the Talmud clearly says this, without someone claiming otherwise?
I also have another idea. Since it appears from here that all denominations claim to descend from traditional Judaism (or is that just Rabbinic Judaism?), then could I put a lead paragraph stating: Traditional Judaism absolutely prohibits..., citing the Talmud or Mishneh Torah or Shulchan Aruch, then under Orthodox view state that Orthodox Judaism follows the traditional viewpoint?
Obviously, I am mainly interested here in those who subscribe to denominations other than Orthodoxy (or none at all).Mzk1 (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. The Reform section, while perhaps correctly reflecting the Reform viewpoint, is not backed up by its reference. I am not sure what to do about this.Mzk1 (talk) 19:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Why is the question focused on Talmud? It is forbidden in Leviticus 18.21-3 in terms that could hardly be more clear. Is something extra really needed? 173.52.182.160 (talk) 20:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- See the Reform section there. We have to allow for it.Mzk1 (talk) 07:08, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Allow for what? Reform Jews recognize the authority of the Tanakh, but not of the Talmud. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 11:09, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What does "recognising authority" mean, if you just don't live by it? Debresser (talk) 14:38, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Debresser, this is not a discussion group. If you want to vent on that subject, you might be able to find a suitable e-forum list on Yahoo Groups. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 14:54, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I am trying to understand a statement about one of the essential characteristics of Reform Judaism, if you don't mind. Feel free to visit said Yahoo groups any time. Debresser (talk) 19:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Which essential characteristic of Reform Judaism are you having difficulty understanding?
- Rather than ask here, why not search for the answer to your questions from sources that are considered reliable, such as the Union for Reform Judaism [1]? That will give you information from a source that is WP:V. (I notice that they even offer an "Ask the Rabbi" section, if you have a particular issue you want to discuss....not that I think Chabads would ever communicate with Reform rabbis.) 173.52.182.160 (talk) 11:37, 30 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE: Hi User 173.52.182.160 (talk · contribs) please take this as a serious request. Please read Wikipedia:Why create an account? !!! You are obviously very wise and know a lot, but quite honestly you hurt your own credibility by refusing to create a simple WP:USERNAME. After all you are on Wikipedia and Wikipedians invariably dismiss the seriousness of comments of users (i.e. editors) who stubbornly refuse to take on a user name to be called by, they just think it is very suspicious or that something is not right, so why breed mistrust when you want to be taken very seriously. To get motivated please read Wikipedia:Username policy: "You may wish to create an account if you do not already have one. Creating an account provides a number of benefits; in particular, your contributions are attributed to your username...Your username comes with a "user page", whose title is of the form "User:Yourname", and a "user talk page" entitled "User talk:Yourname" that people will use to contact you" that will help people stay in touch with you. You are NOT required to divulge anything about yourself on a user page, just put one or tow tiny items on it, just look at what others' have done with theirs. In any case Wikipedia's technology can trace the origins of comments regardless if one uses a user name or not, so you gain nothing by remaining a number, and conversely you gain a lot by becoming an identifiable Wikipedian that others can refer to. In addition any votes you may cast at AfDs are usually not as strong when using your numbered anonymous ID (sometimes some closing admins disallow or dismiss them) when you could just easily be using a regular user name. Hopefully you are not a WP:SOCK as that would really make it tough for you. So do yourself and all of us at WP:JUDAISM a big favor and get yourself a proper user name so that we can refer and respond to you "by name"! Thanks a lot for all your help and cooperation. Keep up your great commentaries and contributions. Sincerely, IZAK (talk) 07:36, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please see: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2010 May 28#Categories:American Jews/Jewish people by fooian descent. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 09:31, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The administrator helping me on my talk page suggested I seek comments from others on this topic.
my article is being trashed by 3 users with no knowledge or interest in the Holocaust. First they tried to delete it entirely and were outvoted five to three. Now they have repeatedly gutted it place, undoing a longer, accurate and well footnoted article and putting an inaccurate two paragraph thing in its place.
I originally posted an article on a tragic, but non-controversial topic in Holocaust studies: the New York Times policy during the period of the Second World War to minimize reports of the Holocaust. I relied on two resources: the New York Time’s apology in 2001, and the work of Dr. Laurel Leff.
The issue is not controversial among knowledgable people because the Times itself acknowledged its guilt fully and publicly in its 150th anniversary issue on November 14, 2001, 56 years after the end of the war. Under the title, “Turning Away from the Holocaust”, retired executive editor Max Frankel wrote that the Times knew the accuracy of the reports on Hitler’s persecution of the Jews and the Final Solution, but that from the beginning to the end, chose never to make it a lead story, or the exclusive topic of an editorial. “… to this day the failure .. to fasten upon Hitler's mad atrocities stirs the conscience of succeeding generations of reporters and editors.”
In listing the details of the Time’s policy to ‘bury’ the Holocaust, Frankel cited one outside resource:
“No article about the Jews' plight ever qualified as The Times's leading story of the day, or as a major event of a week or year. The ordinary reader of its pages could hardly be blamed for failing to comprehend the enormity of the Nazis' crime. Laurel Leff...has been the most diligent independent student of The Times's Holocaust coverage and deftly summarized her findings last year in The Harvard International Journal of Press/Politics.”
Three people who originally tried to delete the entire article and are now ruining it have never made any contributions to an article on the holocaust or world war II, and are not really interested. they came over from the new york times page, where they try to prevent criticism of the Times. when they were voted down re deleting the New York Times and the Holocaust in its entirely, they have proceeded to gut it in place. i don't have any allies on this page. The administrator helping me on my talk page suggested I go to a wikiproject page to say i would welcome comments from others.Cimicifugia (talk) 03:45, 29 May 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia[reply]
- Personal attacks aside, I would invite any experienced editor to view the earlier version of this article and judge it for what it was, a complete mess. It was simply a long, rambling partisan rant that relied almost entirely on the opinion of one man and stating that opinion as fact. Worse, it was simply poorly written. Extremely bad articles tend not to stay that way for long on Wikipedia, like it or not.
- Also, you really seem to have some ownership issues. You repeatedly refer to it as "your" article and imply that you have more of a right to edit the article because you created it and because you edit other articles on the subject of the Holocaust. I urge you to read WP:OWN to see why this is not the case. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:38, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Too bad you ended your edit (above) with a personal attack on a user who is editing in good faith. Anyone who wants to see the disputed version of the article can read it here[2]. Personally I think it needs additional sources for balance, but it is much better that the current stub that has replaced it. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 17:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- That previous version had perhaps a little too many examples. Something in between that version and the present one would be optimal, IMHO. Debresser (talk) 19:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Debresser, I think you are quite right about that. But there are some editors involved who seem rather hostile to the subject, who first proded it, and when that failed reduced it to a stub. That makes constructive editing rather difficult. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 19:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Open a discussion on the article's talk page, draw attention from here, and get consensus for a version that should be something in between that previous version and the present one. Add information step by step, and see if it is challenged. And if it is, force them to discuss it, and apply consensus. I am not really interested in the subject, nor am I available, but surely a few editors from here will be willing to lend their opinions for let's say a period of a week. Debresser (talk) 21:30, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments, and a vote, by interested editors will be welcome. 173.52.182.160 (talk) 16:31, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: The above IP editor has been blocked for sockpuppetry (as expected). --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Dan Nichols has been nominated for deletion. Input needed. Kiddo27 (talk) 18:44, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You must mean the Nick Nichols article because the Dan Nichols article was already deleted in 2007 altho someone has re-created it. What's going on? IZAK (talk) 07:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When I noticed that Portal:Judaism/Weekly Torah portion hadn't been updated this week for the second time in a row, I checked and noticed that Dauster (talk · contribs) - who usually does that update - hasn't edited at all for the last couple of weeks.
I have left a note on his talk page and sent him an email too. I will let you all know if I find out anything. —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 19:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- UPDATE: He's back. Turns out he was on a vacation & didn't leave a note on his talk page. Kol tov! —Elipongo (Talk contribs) 12:44, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have recently found a rather lengthy discussion on this topic in a reference work, while reviewing sources for a little-known group of early Jewish Christians called Ebionites. The term does seem notable in a Judaic context, considering it also seems to have been used in some sort of specific way to describe the Qumran Covenanters, and I was wondering whether the members of this project knew of any article where the majority of the material related to this subject might be placed. Individuals are also, of course, free to comment on any of the other threads on that page, regarding the historicity and historical sources for the group in general. In any event, the relevant discussion can be found at Talk:Ebionites#"The poor" in Judaism. Thank you for your attention. John Carter (talk) 15:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, this is a notice for this WikiProject in regards to a current category for discussion. All the subcategories of Category:American Jews by national origin are currently nominated to be renamed. Your comments are welcome, and the discussion can be found here. Thank you. — ξxplicit 06:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi fellow Judaism project editors. I am fairly new to wiki and need some advice on dealing with hostile editors. Have any of you had experience with these three - their behavior is a form of Holocaust denial and i am finding being forced by wiki rules to seek consensus with them impossible and abusive. What is the most effective way to present my problem to get them banned from the article entirely? I wrote up the description below. should i post this on the an/i page? is that the right place to go? Thanks for advice and help.
We are having severe problems at the New York Times and the Holocaust article. The topic is a small but for Americans, significant, part of the history of the Holocaust. Like history of the Holocaust in general it is well documented, incontrovertible and not controversial among decent people. It is very well known in the field of Holocaust studies, but unknown by the general public. The information in the article is based on references from the New York Time’s 100th anniversary apology and especially their full-page, 150th anniversary apology for purposefully burying news of the Holocaust on its inside pages; the founding director of the U.S. Holocaust Museum; the founding director of Harvard’s Shorenstein Center of Journalism; the founding director of the Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies; the top academic who has written in detail on the subject, Laurel Leff and other academics. The Time’s itself called its policy to not report adequately on the Holocaust ‘tragic’ and “the century’s bitterest journalistic failure”, that it had significant impact on the failure of the U.S. to rescue Jews from Hitler, and said generations of journalists have learned from it not to underreport genocide.
Unfortunately, this topic has attracted the attention of three malicious editors who are very experienced in all the procedures of Wikipedia: bali ulimate, Phgustaf and loonymonkey. They claim the topic is an original POV by the wiki editor who first introduced it; that it is ‘trivial’; that it is fringe; that the Times apology is ‘just one man’s opinion’; that we can’t use quotes from the founding director of the U.S. Holocaust Museum; the founding director of Harvard’s Shorenstein Center of Journalism; the founding director of the Wyman Institute for Holocaust Studies because they all come from one source (the script for a History Chanel program written by the Newseum called “The Holocaust: the Untold Story”, available in its entirely on the web); that the New York Times ‘may have dropped the ball a little’ but that the topic is worth no more than a couple of sentences on the New York Times page.
These same wikipedians previously blocked a paragraph on the subject on the New York Times page, where the topic is currently reduced to a few sentences buried in the section ‘criticism of the Times’ next to a paragraph on a minor editor who plagiarized. In short, wiki is being manipulated by these three hostile wikipedians to recreate in a microcosm the burying of information on the Holocaust.
When the original version of this article was posted it needed more work. Instead of collaborating to improve it, these three hostile wikipedians first tried to have the topic deleted entirely. As part of that discussion they suggested at most it should be a stub. When they were voted down on deletion they proceeded to delete the entire article anyway and substitute a polemical and inaccurate stub, which is what appears on wiki now. They have been belligerent, name calling and working together to drive constructive editors off the page and to impose complete control. They have not once replied to constructive attempts to reach consensus. Repeatedly calling for balance, they have not once produced a reference to provide such ‘balance.’ (There are no opposing references they can produce. There is complete consensus on the basic facts of this topic, just as there is consensus that the Holocaust happened.) They have now changed their tactic to a proposal to merge the article back into the New York Times page, which is a transparent ploy to delete it by another name. The page is frozen and there is no possibility of working on an improved version as long as these three wikipedians are playing the role of spoiler.
I am fairly new to wiki. I am frankly having trouble following the gazillion rules, each with subsets and complex definitions. Baliultimate and his cohorts are very well versed and use wiki rules like insults and weapons to hurl at their opponents. There is something very abusive to me and other sincere editors in the way the wiki consensus process is playing out on this page. It is not fair to us to be asked to collaborate with what are functionally Holocaust deniers. They are denying the validity and facts of this small chapter of Holocaust history, not working sincerely to produce a good article. I respectfully request they be permanently banned from editing this article.Cimicifugia (talk) 13:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)cimicifugia[reply]
|
