Cannabis Ruderalis

thcscience_admin

New criterion - T4, aka Template PROD

I've been mulling this one over for a while now. One stalled discussion in January made me pause, but it's been mentioned to me a few times (most recently by Nihlus) and I think I'm going to put the question to rest.

At current we have no PROD-like system for Templates. We (obviously) have PROD for articles and F11 for images, but no way to quietly delete an unused template other than to clog up WP:TFD with nominations that almost everyone will !vote "delete" on.

I propose a new criterion, T4: If template is unused and shows no likelihood of being used, the item may be deleted seven days after notification of the creator. Templates deleted under this criterion would be refundable just like PRODs. This keeps some of the clutter out of TFD, still allows the creator to protest the nomination, and avoids gaming the system (one of my main issues that brought on the January discussion was the fact that users were nominating under G6 and G8 for unused templates).

Thoughts? Primefac (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – Looks like you beat me to the punch, so it stands to reason that I completely support this. My drafted wording was: Templates that are unused–that is, are not transcluded in any pages, are not being actively substituted, are not used as a preload for another template, and are not used in any editnotice–may be deleted after being tagged for seven days. In addition, I was going through and gathering data on any TfD that used the "unused" argument. None of them were kept, and all but one was deleted. One resulted in no consensus. Nihlus 02:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I like your wording better, though I think the after notification of the creator bit needs to stay in. Primefac (talk) 12:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Let's try:
    Templates that are unused–that is, are not transcluded in any pages, are not being actively substituted, are not used as a preload for another template, and are not used in any editnotice–may be deleted seven days after notifying the creator and being tagged.
    Gets a little wordy but gets the point across. Nihlus 12:37, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • So just add templates to the list of things that can be prodded? Why is this here? -- Tavix (talk) 03:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tavix: See the wording of T3. Nihlus 03:08, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    So add templates to the list of things that can be PRODed and we won’t need T3 either... That would help a lot more than adding another criterion, and it’d simplify the system too. -- Tavix (talk) 03:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    A PROD is a very vague "I don't expect issues" deletion. One could (in theory) set a prod tag on a sidebar or infobox that is in use with a perfectly valid rationale and it very well could be deleted. The point of this criteria is specifically for unused/never-going-to-be-used templates. Of course if a consensus develops to modify the wording of PROD, then that's what we'd go with, but I was looking for something a bit more specific. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    A PROD is simply for uncontroversial deletions, which seems to be your objective with the criterion (ie: to reduce the load at TfD). Adding templates to PROD would solve that issue, without muddying the waters further between PROD and CSD. -- Tavix (talk) 21:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Since F4 to F7 and C1 have a seven-day horizon, in addition to F11 and T3 already mentioned, it seems too late to achieve a clean separation between PROD-like processes and true speedy deletion: Noyster (talk), 12:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support so as to help free TfD of discussions with 10+ days between relistings. J947(c) (m) 03:04, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: How can you tell whether a template is being actively substituted? Doesn't substitution remove backlinks to the template? Regards SoWhy 12:25, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SoWhy: {{Substonly}} should be transcluded on the documentation page. ~ Rob13Talk 12:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • This relies on the documentation being done correctly, which is not necessarily true. —Kusma (t·c) 12:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Which is fine, because we give notice to the creator and a 7-day hold. If they're actively using their poorly-documented template, they can just remove the PROD. From experience, the vast majority of orphaned templates are not substitute only, and if they are, the majority of those are documented. The rest are usually pretty obviously substitute only. We then have to consider the trade-off between maybe having to undelete 5 templates that should have been documented better versus literally thousands of useless TfD discussions that require closers we don't have. The choice is pretty obvious. ~ Rob13Talk 12:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • (edit conflict × 2) I understand that but Nihlus' suggestion is to exempt templates that are not being actively substituted, so does that mean to exempt templates that have the {{Substonly}} tag on it (no matter if they are still used or not) or to exempt templates that are still being substituted? And if it's the latter, how can you tell? Regards SoWhy 13:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per my comment above. ~ Rob13Talk 12:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only if... Ideally, PROD shouldn't be used for templates for the simple reason it's not used for redirects: they don't have enough watchers. In practice, however, I don't think this is going to lead to less scrutiny in the deletion of templates, given the low participation at TfD and its overall bias for deletion (e.g. a discussion consisting only of the nomination and a comment expressing doubts about the validity of the nominator's rationale, is as likely to be closed as "delete" as it is to get relisted or closed as "no consensus"). If a PROD-like process gets adopted, then it should have two explicit requirements: 1) The nominator should have made the effort to notify interested parties. Minimally, this should involve notifying the creator as well as a relevant wikiproject (for example by project-tagging the template's talk page, provided the wikiproject is active and subscribed to the article alerts). 2) An explicit check for substitutions must have been made by either the nominator or the deleting admin. This check is important for two reasons: a) most of the regular TfD nominators so far don't seem to have had the habit of checking for substitutions and that burden has traditionally been with the participants in the discussion (and no, the template's documentation is not enough: hardly any of the subst-only templates that get nominated as "unused" are documented as being subst-only); b) a check for substitutions will be able to pick the occasional case where template content has been merged into an article (or another template) and its history will need to be preserved for attribution. – Uanfala 10:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with no requirement to notify some morbid wikiproject about some template no one is using. Lighten the kiad at TfD. Legacypac (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose unless there is are explicit requirements that: (1) the nominator and deleting admin both check for templates being actively substituted, and (2) all substantial editors to the template (not just the creator) are notified, and (3) all projects that have tagged the template and/or are clearly relevant are notified. Article alerts are not enough imo and alerting inactive projects is not a burden. I don't expect nominators to do a deep search of all potentially relevant projects, but if a template is related to e.g. a geographical place then the project for that country should be notified even if they haven't tagged it, similarly anything that gives a warning to editors is relevant to Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings even if they have never heard of it before. Thryduulf (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as proposed. The opinion about a template's likelihood of being used can vary from editor to editor. That, and unfortunately, we have no way to determine substitution counts to validate how useful a template might be in regards to substitutions. Best to keep template deletion proposals at WP:TFD so that editors can determine if an unused template can be saved or used appropriately. Steel1943 (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as proposed. I've been thinking about this for a bit, but I don't think it makes sense to insert a PROD-like process into CSD. I would, however, support the addition of templates to the list of things that are PROD-able since it seems the reason for this is to help unclog TfD. -- Tavix (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Tavix: As explained above, F4, F5, F6, F7, F11, C1, and T3 all have the seven day window. This PROD-like process you speak of was introduced into CSD a long time ago. Nihlus 21:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    This is literally a "Template PROD", as nicknamed from the header. It would be less complicated to simply add templates to WP:PROD (like what was done with files a few months back) rather than a new CSD blurring those lines even further. -- Tavix (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Your argument seems to rely solely on semantics. T3 exists so it is essentially a template PROD already. There's no metaphorical line to be blurred as it already has been defined. Nihlus 21:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    If "template PROD" already essentially exists, as you claim, then there should be no issues with adding templates to PROD. If "Template PROD" is actually added, then we can simplify the CSD list by deprecating the "un-speedy" criteria if desired. Instead, you're trying to add more criteria to CSD, which in my opinion is not the right way to achieve the objectives stated above. -- Tavix (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry to be pointing out the obvious, but there's a substantial difference between the PROD-like process proposed here and the kinds of speedy deletion criteria that happen to incorporate time delay. F4, F5, F6, F7, F11 are there to deal with likely copyright infringements and so are need for the fundamental purpose of staying on the right side of the law; T3 is for the removal of duplication (and hence the template-space flavour of A10); C1 is for empty categories, where this is virtually a technical deletion, where the non-technical and potentially controversial part of the process has already been done by its emptying (and hence anyone would have already objected before this point). These are all inherently uncontroversial deletions, which is definitely not the case for templates that appear unused, at least not any more than it would be the case that it's uncontroversial to have a speedy deletion criterion for orphaned articles. – Uanfala 22:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The definition of CSD, from the very first sentence of WP:CSD is "The criteria for speedy deletion (CSD) specify the only cases in which administrators have broad consensus to bypass deletion discussion, at their discretion, and immediately delete Wikipedia pages or media" (my emphasis added). If we have a seven-day delay, then it's not immediate—let's not add another violation of this. Thankfully, the addition of File PROD has rendered the F time-delay criteria redundant. That leaves C1 and T3. I understand the delay for C1, but even empty categories can be a controversial deletion if there's articles to populate them, so I rather have a category PROD than C1. I don't see the point of having a time delay for T3. If there is substantial duplication of another template, that's still going to be the case seven days later, so I would support removing the delay for that criterion. -- Tavix (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Draft remaining after article was created by copy/paste

See Draft:Brabble, and Brabble.

Seems to me that Draft:Brabble should be somehow speedy deletable, but I don't see how... Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, history merge requested. Jytdog (talk) 02:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Jytdog: this is  Done. — xaosflux Talk 03:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 03:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What if all speedy deletion criteria except G12 were abolished?

It's SNOWing today Legacypac (talk) 19:32, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What if almost everything were sent to AfD instead of CSD? I think:

  • It wouldn't require too much extra effort over at AfD, because (1) the slam-dunk cases typically don't take a lot of time to review and (2) situations where someone creates a whole slew of deletable articles could be listed together as one group
  • In more marginal cases, the AfDs would create a record of the best arguments for keeping the article, which people considering recreating the article could then review to see if they have any better arguments than what were rejected before, thereby avoiding pointless re-creations while encouraging helpful re-creations
  • Some articles that currently get deleted under CSD would get rescued instead by being improved to the point where they could be kept, during the process of the AfD

It seems like CSD has become the new AfD, i.e., we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD. For example, if a topic seems non-notable, usually it will be nominated as A7, even if it doesn't really fall under A7. Then all it takes is one admin out of 855 to decide it should go, and it's gone.

If it really is a slam-dunk case of non-notability, wouldn't people at AfD be able to tell at a glance, and not have to spend a whole lot of time looking at it before saying "delete"? But if it isn't a slam-dunk case, then it's more likely that as a group of people is reviewing it over a week, someone will notice that it is in fact notable, and make an argument for it.

From the point of view of people who misuse the CSD, there's not really any downside to tagging the article as a speedy just to see if that flies. Unless someone is going to impose a consequence for CSD misuse (which, as people have pointed out, is hard to do, because of the lack of after-the-fact transparency in a lot of these cases, plus a lack of "constituency" for looking after an article's survival if the original author is no longer around), it seems like the only answer is to mostly just scrap the CSD system. Maybe use prod instead for those cases that are expected to be uncontroversial, and accept the tradeoff of having to wait a week as the cost of restoring the integrity of the deletion process.

CSD probably worked better back when the wiki was small and Jimbo could personally oversee all the admins to make sure processes weren't being misused. I think the wiki has outgrown CSD, because there's no longer that mechanism for accountability. Smooth alligator (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Special:Log/delete indicates to me that you'd need A LOT MORE deletion discussions in such cases. Also, don't forget G10. I get the idea of accountability but in the real world there is only so much manpower and attention. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've just today deleted about 50 cross-namespace redirects as a result of userfying a bunch of templates. If I had to send all those to RfD rather than just G6ing them that would be a right ballache. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 19:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If an editor misuses CSD some Admin or other editor will come down on them like a ton of bricks. I was accused of having low CSD accuracy based on some declines, but when I finally managed to turn on User:Legacypac/CSD_log I proved the declines rate was extraordinarily low - the odd decline against thousands of accepts is just as likely to be an Admin mistake as mine. Legacypac (talk) 04:05, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) Looking at the logs, there were something like 2000 (two thousand) pages deleted in the last 24 hours—the vast majority of which weren't G12. Just reading the list of page titles would break AfD, even if most were "slam-dunk" cases.
It's also worth noting that a deletion via application of a CSD template effectively requires two consecutive, affirmative "votes" for deletion: one from the editor who applies the template, and a second from the admin who reviews the CSD request. And any editor (admin or not) can effectively veto the CSD request by removing the template; except in cases of abuse, that prevents CSD from being used to delete the article going forward. That's likely substantially more oversight than any two-thousand-articles-per-day AfD process would get. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, although if an admin sees the article first (e.g. as he's patrolling), he can delete it unilaterally without anyone else's placing a tag on it first. Smooth alligator (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
He (why he? We even allow women to have the mop and bucket now you know!) can, but outside of the obvious cases of G3, G10 and G12 (where "get rid of it now" really is imperative) it's really poor practice to do that. Similarly, when you want to project a page, you're better off going to WP:RFPP first unless it's an obvious case like persistent vandalism. And woe betide the admin who blocks somebody they're in an edit war with. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Poor practice? I have been doing this for 10 years or so, without many problems. Has saved other admins a lot of time, and prevented a lot of problematic articles of getting longer exposure here. Of course one needs to be careful, and in case of doubt tag it (or prod, or just pass) instead, but in most cases unilaterally deleting isn't a problem. Fram (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Ritchie333 that direct deletion is not good as a standard practice. It helps to get a sanity check in, especially with A7 and G11. But an admin who tags something for G10 instead of deleting it should give their mop to someone else. —Kusma (t·c) 11:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If there is misuse the focus should be in fixing and preventing it, not in abolishing a system that works and prevents a lot of extra time from editors having to vote delete for all those new articles we would have at AFD. I personally think that time has better use elsewhere in the project. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a historical note, there was never a time when Jimbo oversaw all admins - unless you when those first months when Jimbo employed Larry who was the only authority. Rmhermen (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a really bad idea. I did once write a program which attempted to classify mainspace deletions according to the reason for deletion. I haven't kept it up to date so the most recent figures I have are from 2012, but nevertheless they suggest that the number of pages deleted through CSD is something like four to five times the number deleted through AFD and PROD combined. And the vast majority of those articles are rubbish, so we'd waste loads of time putting them through more thorough review. AfD does require more overhead than speedy deletion, it requires somebody to nominate the article, some people (usually at least two) to comment on it and then someone to close it. This can last for up to a month. Imagine if we had to do that every time somebody wrote an article which said "dfjkdjadkadsjf" and was intelligent enough to contest the PROD. Furthermore this would hurt the chances of articles which are worth keeping, because they would be a lot harder to find amidst the tidal wave of crap this proposal would unleash on the AfD and PROD processes. Hut 8.5 19:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think I'd like to keep G3 and G10 myself. "we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD" Utter poppycock. Do you have any actual evidence to back that up? I've done something in the region of about 4,000 CSDs I think and the only one I have ever knowingly done outside policy was Micaela Schäfer, and even then I announced it on WP:AN immediately afterwards explaining why. If you've got actual logs of admins deleting stuff out of order, ping them to this discussion and I'll try and find out why - except 1) speedies like U5 and G11 in particular can be controversial and objective and 2) if you were going to say RHaworth, I can't think of very many, if any, speedies he's actually done outside policy. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I was here when the criteria were much narrower. AfD (well, it was called VfD back then) had, relatively speaking, much more traffic. The problem was that then, as now, most deletion cases don't get much serious, insightful review, and so we'd get dozens of boring articles on non-notable subjects. It was, at best, a high-effort process that was a drain on the volunteer resource, and at worst, it was inconsistent and empowered creators of marginal articles since the process was slow and the outcome uncertain. I occasionally follow the logs and I don't see abuse, and I see little in the way of creeping expansion of the criteria that isn't supported by discussion here. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD Sadly, I think you're right, assuming by "survive" you mean an AfD resting in keep (remember, there are other possible AfD outcomes, such as merge and redirect). I frequently see articles that have obvious merge/redirect targets deleted under A7. This AfD is a good example in which two editors (one of whom is an experienced admin) insisted it was an obvious A7 per WP:INHERITWEB (don't get me started on that and its "connexion" to A7. For my views on the matter, you can read this), despite having a blindingly obvious merge/redirect target. The irony here is that it was kept as notable. Adam9007 (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I've speedied thousands of pages in the last few months that don't warrant the effort of AfD or MfD. The OP is either very inexperienced in deletion process or trolling. Legacypac (talk) 00:30, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose . Not trolling but with only 341 mainspace edits and barely 3 months, Smooth alligator would be well advised to get significantly more experience before considering getting involved in serious maintenance areas and talking about what used to be done years ago. A good start to their Wikicareer would be to enroll at the WP:CVUA and do some vandalism patrolling and leave article deletion topics alone for a while. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:50, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Advice noted. Although if you look at the contribution histories of some of the people who are very active in patrolling and deleting articles, or who spend a lot of time weighing in on policy and incidents and such, and filter by article creations, a lot of them have created virtually no articles other than redirects. Or they haven't created articles in a very long time. So they don't encounter speedy deletion from the perspective of the article creator. I'm sure a lot of article creators too spend little or no time patrolling and tagging articles. It's just not their cup of tea.
The different sides of the debate on deletion policy tend to lack a full and balanced perspective because they've specialized so much in their areas of interest (either article creation or article deletion or policy/incidents or whatnot). I see this too in the RFAs sometimes; people will say, "I can't support you because you have no experience in x" even if what they've said they want to do with the tools has nothing to do with x. People naturally tend to think that whatever area they're involved in is important and that everyone should try it. Smooth alligator (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not concerned if you try working deletion or not, but if you have no experience in deletion work it is inappropriate to give opinions about overhauling it in drastic ways. Legacypac (talk) 03:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose What benefit would this have? Filling full of spam is what killed Google Knol, and in fact IMO we need more methods to prevent this not less. Those who appear to support undisclosed / disclosed paid editing work very hard to make sure no deletion steps an iota over a very strict reading of policy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, but somewhat more articles could go through PROD instead of speedy deletion. A lot of things need to be deleted, but there is no urgency. —Kusma (t·c) 11:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prod does have the significant merit that the proposer provides a rationale, thus letting the article creator know what is needed and allowing them to respond. I have sometimes chosen it over CSD for that reason. But there is no merit in encouraging false hope and effort in situations which have no chance of demonstrable notability (the one-person business creating web pages, the newly self-publishing writer, the local insurance broker, etc.) where A7/G11 are appropriate. AllyD (talk) 12:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: There are no "slam-dunk cases" at AfD. It takes each participant's time and effort to (a) read the AfD rationale, (b) read and evaluate the page, (c) conduct searches in the standard and other case-specific locations, and (d) provide a rationale. A case is generally not closed without more than one "delete" opinion, however detailed, so there is the additional re-listing effort. It is a process creaking with an ever-present load whose increase would not serve the project's interest. AllyD (talk) 12:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, mainly per AllyD, but a few others as well. "Removing" CSD actually causes more problems than it solves, as XfD is actually EXTREMELY complicated. Note to proposer: Please come back once you've read more on Wikipedia's deletion process. ToThAc (talk) 17:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Kudpung. To the cynical, the suggestion could come across as — fortunavelut luna 17:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - speedy deletion was created specifically because the large volume of "slam-dunk" nominations to AfD was overwhelming the process. There is no reason to think the problem wouldn't be worse given the higher rate of creation and deletion now. VQuakr (talk) 18:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add a baseless claim extension

I was wondering if a "baseless claim" extension to either G3 or G10, leaning G3, can be added. It's already partially covered by G6, but I think some additional parameters can be added in order for pages to qualify under the extension:

  • The extension would apply to WP:ARBREQ, WP:LTA, WP:RFC, and WP:SPI, to name a few.
  • To qualify, the filing user must have had little or no prior experience in the given administrative area, or have had a generally bad reputation there.
  • To qualify, practically everything presented by the filing user must be baseless, subject to a few exceptions.
  • To qualify, the targeted user (if there is one) must have a generally good reputation on Wikipedia.

Administrators can check out Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Oshwah, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NeilN, and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Oshwah as a few examples. ToThAc (talk) 17:54, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

G6 is fine for the links you posted. G3 also covers it. G5 probably also covers these particular ones. G6 is already kind of the catch-all for "this should obviously be deleted but none of the criteria fit exactly". Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:01, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal: replace A11 with G14

I propose that criterion A11 be replaced with a new criterion, G14. This is because the criterion (that the subject was obviously made up) can be reasonably applied to spaces such as template: and draft:. The proposed new text is similar to the existing A11 text, and would be:

This applies to any nominally encyclopedic content that plainly indicates that the subject was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and does not credibly indicate why its subject is important or significant. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify under Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Note: This is not intended for hoaxes (see CSD G3).[1]

References

  1. ^ Unlike a hoax, subject to deletion as vandalism under CSD G3 as a bad faith attempt to deceive, CSD G14 is for topics that were or may have been actually created and are real, but have no notice or significance except among a small group of people, e.g. a newly invented drinking game or new word.

Thoughts? VQuakr (talk) 03:52, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kusma: the idea was prompted by the discussion at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:The Republic of Myhös. VQuakr (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't dispute that this happens, but I don't think this happens frequently enough to be a CSD. —Kusma (t·c) 08:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. We should not have to go to MfD or wait six months for G13 to kick in in order to delete something that we could speedy as clearly made up if it were in mainspace. Kusma, I recognize that userspace is traditionally given more leeway for borderline or even personal topics but we already have U5 for WEBHOST violations, so I think your concern is somewhat misplaced as there's clearly a precedent for getting rid of inappropriate content from userspace. That being said, I don't have an objection to carving out a "no userspace" exception for this one if we really have to. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    U5 has an important exception for real long-term contributors, who are allowed to keep otherwise inappropriate stuff in their userspace. —Kusma (t·c) 09:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose--Unless and until user-space is left out of it's purview.Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 11:30, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support WP:U5 is used to delete such material in userspace now, but this crieria would be easier for new users to understand. There is no reason any page should be hosting stuff a user made up one day. We need this for Drafts for sure and we should being CSDing such Drafts instead of rejecting them at AfC. Legacypac (talk) 11:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Legacypac:--Well, will the new expanded criterion cover User:Catherine de Burgh/Catherine Bonkbuster?Regards:)Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 12:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - It makes a lot of sense to extend this beyond just article space.- MrX 12:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - First, I think it's important to remember that deleting something doesn't actually do anything other than hiding it, and most of the content in draft or user space is pretty well hidden already. Second, drafts and user pages aren't just areas for creating future articles (although ideally they are primarily for that and that alone). For a lot of new users, it's also a safe space to more or less tinker with the software and figure out how it works, which is not an easy thing to sort out. Even though those of us who use it every day are want to forget the steep learning curve. It's also in many ways a space to tinker with policies, and figure out exactly why a draft or a subject isn't acceptable. Third, most editors, especially new ones, don't actually fire up Wikipedia before they've had their morning coffee, and check their watchlist before they go to bed. That's why six months is six months: because it's realistic that a good faith editor might only return to work on a draft after several weeks of absence.
Overall, I think it's a recipe for WP:BITE, and while it might solve a problem from our perspective, it seems doubtful that most readers will ever at all notice any difference, and I don't think that's a level of potential improvement that justifies really much of any level of acceptable risk. GMGtalk 12:39, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Draft space is where such articles could be drafted to eventually indicate why they are significant, and there is no requirement for them to immediately do so. In fact, draft space is exactly where such a thing should be done when it was created/invented by someone the author knows personally, or themselves. Smartyllama (talk) 12:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No Draft space and userspace is NOT where people should be writing about the drinking game or micronation they invented last week. Facebook or their own blog or nowhere are better places. No such page is ever kept a MfD. Also note the page must not assert notability.Legacypac (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Those are obvious cases. Sometimes it may not be so obvious. That's why we have drafts and MfD. An article may not assert notability at the moment, but if it can be edited so it does, it shouldn't be deleted from draft space, yet alone speedied. If it were ready to be put in mainspace, it would be there. Articles in draft space don't have to indicate significance the moment they're created, only when they're moved to mainspace. There are two reasons we have that criterion, to prevent articles from being created about topics without any indication of significance and to prevent people from creating articles where they have a conflict of interest. Neither of those policies apply in draftspace. Users with a conflict of interest are explicitly told to create the article in draftspace rather than mainspace, and articles in draftspace are not, and never have been, required to indicate significance the moment they were created. Smartyllama (talk) 17:56, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose we shouldn't be using significance-related standards to delete things in draft space. A page in draft space shouldn't have to indicate how the subject is notable from the moment it is created, which is why A7 doesn't apply there. I am also concerned this might be used to delete jokes in project or user space. Hut 8.5 17:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Hut 8.5: in user space the analogous deletion criterion is WP:U5; I do not think an existing problem of applying this criterion to wikihumor exists or would be exacerbated by the proposed change. The proposed criterion is substantially narrower than A7, in that it requires the candidate material to both make no claim of significance and to state that it was invented/made up by the author. VQuakr (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
U5 is widely misused to delete harmless material in userspace, that doesn't really inspire much confidence in me. A11 is effectively an expansion of A7 to include pages which were obviously coined by the creator or an associate, as it imposes a significance test. I'm also not a fan of writing speedy deletion criteria based on a single example. Hut 8.5 06:46, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@ToThAc: as noted in WP:A11, G3 implies an assumption of bad faith (vandalism) while A11 (and by extension G14) does not. G3's generally are identified by the implausibility of their claims (ie, "Joe McMiddleschooler was the first person to walk on the moon"). A11's generally make mundane but plausible claims (ie, "Joe McMiddleschoolball is a game I invented last week"). Draftspace is the primary space this proposed change would apply to, since similar candidates can often be deleted per WP:U5 in user space and are covered by A11 in mainspace. VQuakr (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not understanding why you feel that page was “obviously created in the wrong namespace”. Saying anything that could be taken as a suggestion of moving drafts to mainspace to seek deletion will get you in serious hot water. That is very unpopular. Legacypac (talk) 07:32, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't "feel" it was created in the wrong namespace, I looked at the page history and noticed that it was created in the Wikipedia namespace. Someone then moved it to the draft namespace instead of article space. I assume it was intended for article space, as many newbies think that "Wikipedia" is a space for articles. —Kusma (t·c) 08:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And I have "abused" my powers to delete it. —Kusma (t·c) 22:06, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It would have been easier to mfD than to start this discussion. In general, in draft space we give more tolerance for things that may appear unjustified, as the purpose of draft space is for drafts that arestill unsatisfactory is for articles to get improved into articles. DGG ( talk ) 21:24, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this is hardly a problem. Very few pages fall into this category. MFD will do fine, or if it does go to an article it can then be speedily deleted. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 23:38, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Currently leaning oppose but can someone supporting this proposal demonstrate that such pages are created frequently enough that MFD can't handle it? After all, convenience is not really a reason to create a new criterion. Regards SoWhyMobile 00:47, 5 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

F9 and XfDs

At Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Consensus_and_copyright_law, it was pointed out to me by Adam9007 that while we do list G12 as a reason to delete a page regardless of the outcome of an XfD, F9 is not listed here. Is there a reason why it isn't? I'd also highly suggest that we go ahead and add it: consensus cannot override copyright law, and this is already acknowledge in the policy by having G12 listed as a reason to delete a page that has survived an XfD. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:07, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I do think it's rather queer that we must technically go to FfD if a file has survived FfD and it later turns out to be an obvious copyright violation. Copyright is something that the participants at the first FfD may not have considered. Adam9007 (talk) 02:13, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&oldid=808926707

Leave a Reply