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List of company registers[edit]

Well, this is my first time behind the curtain here at Wikipedia (long-time user and financial contributor) so not sure how to go about this. Someone, and I won't mention whom because apparently I have to notify them with some string of characters I don't understand; someone keeps removing the links on this very useful page that lists all government registry websites and when you click on the name it takes you there. Apparently there are some pedantic reasons why the links shouldn't be there but it kind of makes the article useful to people who use it. I read the WP:EL thingy and I really think there is enough wiggle room to allow the links to stay. Especially considering that every time someone takes out the links someone puts them back in. Now I wonder is it the people who use the article that are taking them out or is it someone who really has no use at all for an article about company registers? Its locked now so I'm here trying to get it unlocked and the links put back in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Westernerer (talk • contribs) 19:13, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

• List of company registers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Wikipedia is not a directory. The links don't belong.

Given Company registers doesn't exist, why does this list? --Ronz (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

• Well, how about instead of deleting nearly 40,000 carefully gathered and useful links they get moved to External Links? — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Westernerer (talk • contribs) 21:49, 9 March 2016 (UTC) The Westernerer (talk) 21:51, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Exactly the same reasons as datasets discussion above. --Ronz (talk) 01:45, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

I don't see the reasons you are referring to. It seems that 'the dataset is being used in some reasonably visible or important way' to me. Especially registries where there is only a single source per nation/state. The Westernerer (talk) 16:05, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

There are a couple threads in that discussion. One being an interesting "how to improve the article/list entry Notability requirements" (the discussion about sources, etc.). Another being "Can the Lists of datasets article have external links in the list", which resulted in a No. Datakeeper then removed all of the external links from the article and has been working to improve the article. Stesmo (talk) 18:30, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

• I'm here to disagree again with the narrow reading of WP:EL. Specific articles as indicated in the datasets entry, maybe, but I don't see how this applies everywhere. I think List of company registers more closely resembles this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Sri_Lanka and should have the external links included. Or, again, if you, with the keys to but not the need of this list, could allow the external links to be moved to External links instead of erasing them out right a list that serves the public good can be saved. Considering how often the edits were reversed we can see the clear usefulness of this list for any one other than a wikipedia editor.The Westernerer (talk) 22:36, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out the newspaper article with external links in the body of the article / in a stand-alone list. I've fixed that article as well. You seem to be ignoring that the List of company registers article *already has external links in the EL section* pointing to lists of company registers. There is no reason to add hundreds more to the EL section or the body of the article. Stesmo (talk) 17:31, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Ah, instead of 'Thank you,' it seems you actually just meant that you're thankful in general (unless you misunderstood my intentions there?). Anyway, thanks for only mostly dismissing my thoughts, I understand I've no standing here and you think you already have a large enough body of discussion to justify editing and locking the lists (or articles as you keep calling them) as per the pertinent panel's conclusions. Oh, one last thing, is this related to the bitterness about the search engine brouhaha that's got everyone pissed here or did this list just get unlucky at random? The Westernerer (talk) 07:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Furthermore, those links at the bottom are far from comprehensive and are hardly a substitute for the comprehensive volunteer maintained list here.The Westernerer (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Pinging recent-ish contributors: @1.187.250.208:@106.220.72.36:@121.242.29.87:@139.149.1.231:@161.10.40.41:@168.168.33.250:@181.58.19.21:@186.72.109.243:@212.91.12.4:@62.190.147.220:@66.44.40.169:@78.155.36.74:@90.61.182.254:@91.196.215.202:A455bcd9Abhisheksingh8747Ale-sandroBD2412CharybdiszDavid8302DewritechDumbBOTFrenchmalawiGOLDLOANS1Ktr101Mean as custardMelanieNOnel5969Robin of locksleyRprprSERutherfordStephenM.S.LaiStesmoTamilMuthuWillyinnorway Bazj (talk) 14:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Keep the link for each register where as yet no article exists for it. It seems to me the whole purpose of WP:EL is to stop the addition of a whole load of promotional crud. Company Registers or Corporate Registries or whatever they're called in each jurisdiction are government agencies performing a legal function, not businesses plying for trade. Short of creating a stub article for each corporate registry, how else is this material to be presented?

The article is useful for verifying articles about companies. It's too valuable a resource to be eviscerated just for a zealous adherence to WP:EL. Bazj (talk) 14:29, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Could you address WP:NOTDIRECTORY? --Ronz (talk) 18:13, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Ronz, That would be an argument against keeping the article at all rather than addressing the external links within the article. But since you ask, certainly I can...

Government agencies: Lists of diplomatic missions which links to 200ish lists of diplomatic missions. I think 200² diplomatic missions dwarfs the scope of 200 company registers.

List of central banks.

Others: Lists of hospitals in Africa, Lists of hospitals in Asia, Lists of hospitals in Europe, Lists of hospitals in North America, Lists of hospitals in Oceania, Lists of hospitals in South America, Lists of military installations, Lists of wind farms by country, Lists of universities and colleges, Lists of banks, Lists of companies, Lists of corporate headquarters by city, Lists of cathedrals, Lists of mosques, Lists of magazines, Lists of newspapers, Lists of radio stations, Lists of television stations in North America, Lists of restaurants, Lists of curling clubs... ad nauseam. Bazj (talk) 19:14, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:OSE, but thanks for the list of articles. No, it's not about keeping the article specifically, though that is indeed an option here.

None are relevant. None have links like List of company registers. All you've done is show that the article under discussion is the outlier. So why does this directory of links deserve to be an exception? --Ronz (talk) 21:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Two had some minor problems with their External links sections, which I removed [1] [2], though they are not directly relevant to this discussion. --Ronz (talk) 21:45, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• Keep, per the rationale presented by Bazj above. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 16:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:ELBURDEN, I've restored the article to a version without the links. I don't see consensus swinging toward inclusion, and editors have had a month to make a case. --Ronz (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Does Wikipedia:External_links#Links_in_lists have an applicable exception here?: "This section does not apply if the external link is serving as a citation for a stand-alone list entry that otherwise meets that list's inclusion criteria." SERutherford (talk) 02:30, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Help: I have several issues. Exactly what are we debating here, the list article or improper use of links placed in the body of the article not as a reference but just an external link, and improper adding of external links in general to articles? I picked one example from the List of newspapers in Sri Lanka

• | ''[[The Daily Mirror (Sri Lanka)|Daily Mirror]]'' || [[English language|English]] || Daily || [http://www.dailymirror.lk/ dailymirror.lk] || [[Wijeya Newspapers]] || 1999 || 76,000 || <ref name="wnp">{{cite web | url=http://www.wijeyanewspapers.lk/About_Us.htm | title=Wijeya Newspapers Limited | accessdate=April 18, 2012}}</ref><ref name="allb"/>

This was a proper removal as that link did not belong. I also looked at an example of external links removal, here, and that link did not belong. I could argue against one or more of the others there also.

• • If we are discussing links like above (and not the article) then I would have to "not vote" Delete or Not keep.

In reply to "Short of creating a stub article for each corporate registry, how else is this material to be presented?": The external links section is NOT a place to indiscriminately add material to Wikipedia just to have it nor is adding extra links in the body of the article acceptable.

I personally don't see the encyclopedia value in a world-wide listing of registry authorities but as pointed out above, since Wikipedia is changing to a directory, I guess we can add a yellow and white page section, add phone numbers, and evolve into a true all inclusive vehicle for listing everything in the world. According to the above (list of lists) rationale, if accepted, I can now argue for the inclusion of any list I like. We have a list of prostitution companies in Nevada, so why not a List of Triple A garages in Nevada then other states. That would give editors something to do for a really long time. There are "54 million members (Triple A) in the United States and Canada". How about a List of war veterans with only a right arm (then break it down for each limb), and then get really creative. Think about it; I bet there aren't 54 million people looking for a list of places to get laid in Nevada right?

I guess in the scheme of things, and considering I can look up a list of prostitution companies on Wikipedia, this List of company registers, that probably should be List of company registers worldwide, seems proper since we have:

• List of Doctor Who universe creatures and aliens (0–9, A–G)

• Doctor Who missing episodes (featured article)
• List of Doctor Who serials (featured list)
• List of Doctor Who home video releases

• List of Doctors characters (2012)
• List of Doctor Who audio plays by Big Finish
• List of Doctor Who planets
• List of Doctor Who universe creatures and aliens (Q–Z)
• List of Doctor Who items (0-9 and a-z)
• List of Doctor Who parodies

I guess I better start my list of Triple A garages, anyone want to help? Note: I will be totally against cluttering up of external links sections concerning "... instead of deleting nearly 40,000 carefully gathered and useful links they get moved to External Links." If that is on the table then get rid of them. Otr500 (talk) 12:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

If you're threatening to make articles that you know are inappropriate, you're risking a block. --Ronz (talk) 16:21, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@Ronz: I am assuming good faith but your words did ring out as a threat on what you chose to perceive (subjective) to be a threat. If all you got out of my comments was some perceived threat to degrade Wikipedia then you might want to practice reading instead of "skimming" comments. Wikipedia is being degrading almost daily and you deem it important to to warn me that IF I am threatening to make articles that are inappropriate I am risking being blocked.

• First: I suppose you have not bothered to look at my editing record but just skimmed over and picked what you liked from the comments according to your interpretation.
• Second "My list" (if you would have bothered really reading), that I mentioned, would actually be the List of Triple A garages in Nevada. That is really obvious hypothetical rhetoric as well as the others. Now, if you deem this inappropriate then I challenge you to start a discussion to have me blocked if that is your meaning. I will submit to you that I can not imagine one editor (except possibly you) or admin that would consider such an article (the list of garages) "inappropriate", as meaning deserving a block, considering we really can find a list of cat houses on Wikipedia. There are also lists of lists that refer back to lists and blue links are used indiscriminately to make content circular. Are these the result of "Wiggle room"? I suppose the lists of lists exampled above should certainly be reasoning to create or "keep" yet another list. I would also assume that reasoning should follow that if we have one list this means all are fair game? That sort of thinking would certainly be a slippery slope to doom.
• Third: I am not even sure why you chose to single out hypothetical examples unless you are for the many lists of lists, maybe the external links section being used to include everything not Wikipedia, or possible that you support adding 40,000 entries to the external links section.
• Forth: You must have seriously confused me with some new editor that might exclaim, "Oh shit I might get blocked". Would you suppose because I am honest and do not have an actual agenda but Wikipedia improvement that I would worry about being blocked over BS? Especially when the words "inappropriate articles" would certainly be subjective.

At any rate we still do not need 40,000 more useless (to the general reader) additions to Wikipedia external links. "If" there are not copyright issues, or other reliable source reasoning, it would be far better to have more references. The actual best practice, if the material warrants inclusion on Wikipedia, would be to create articles, but that may be a stretch considering one of the comments above. "Short of creating a stub article for each corporate registry, how else is this material to be presented?", and the answer I suppose would be put all the entries in an external link right? Wait! Maybe the following comment has merit. Otr500 (talk) 08:33, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

How about we move on to other issues. This is dead. --Ronz (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Would it make sense to have external links put into footnoted citations, similar to Elasticsearch? The template {{cite web}} could be made to work as these are almost entirely governmental/ministry websites. SERutherford (talk) 20:48, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

MetroLyrics songwriters miscredits[edit]

The featured article about "Something", a popular Beatles song written by George Harrison, contains an external link to MetroLyrics, an online song lyrics provider. Along with the lyrics, MetroLyrics includes "SONGWRITERS MAX GREEN, CRAIG EDWARD MABBITT, BRIAN MONEY, ROBERT ORTIZ, JOHN FELDMANN".[3] This is not an isolated error. MetroLyrics miscredits songwriters for several well-known songs, including:

• "Stairway to Heaven" (Led Zeppelin) – HOWARD GREENFIELD, NEIL SEDAKA[4]
• "Good Vibrations" (Beach Boys) – HARTMAN, DAN/WAHLBERG, DONALD EDMOND/WAHLBERG, MARK[5]
• "Johnny B. Goode" (Chuck Berry) – CHARLIE DANIELS, BRENDAN COKER[6]
• "L.A. Woman" (The Doors) – JAMES[7]
• "Money" (Pink Floyd) – GOAPELE K. MOHLABANE, JAMES RYAN WUIHUN HO[8]
• "Green Onions" (Booker T. instrumental) – with lyrics by KRIS KRISTOFFERSON[9]

MetroLyrics stresses that it licenses lyrics: "Leading The Way – MetroLyrics was the first lyrics site to provide users with licensed song lyrics and to compensate copyright holders for the content through its partnership with Gracenote."[10] However, their links seem to go against WP policies and guidelines. WP:ELNEVER states "material that violates the copyrights of others per contributors' rights and obligations should not be linked." How are the copyright holders rights being respected (and compensated) if they are misidentified? WP:ELNO provides "one should generally avoid providing external links to: ... 2. Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material ..." Links to inaccurate information, especially in WP:Featured articles, reflects poorly on WP.

Most of the external links to MetroLyrics were added to song articles by User:LyricsBot (the "Something" link was added 7 September 2013)[11] and were not subject to fact checking. Do song lyrics links meet WP policies and guidelines if the lyrics are mostly correct, but the songwriters are miscredited?
—Ojorojo (talk) 21:11, 12 March 2016 (UTC)

• They do seem extraordinary errors for the site to be making, and one naturally queries its quality and integrity as a result. The statements included at MetroLyrics would testify to its worth, though. Is there a way to contact the site perhaps? (he asks without bothering to look), because these are all major errors but ones that would be easy for an admin there to fix. JG66 (talk) 03:47, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

• MetroLyrics appears to lack a system of fact checking and oversight. I started noticing problems with links to the site about two years ago while preparing song articles for Jimi Hendrix GANs. I stopped counting after finding the wrong songwriters credited with about 20 of his songs (identified with the LyricFind logo, which is supposed to indicate proper licensing). Many more songs without the LF logo, usually supplied by site users, were also incorrect or missing credits. I thought that this might be particular to Hendrix, but found many more miscredits for other songwriters as well. Two years later these errors seem to remain. WP volunteers might be able to point out some specific mistakes, but the underlying problem needs to be addressed. MetroLyrics is a commercial (and apparently profitable) enterprise and should have the resources to ensure the quality of their product. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:34, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

• Those credits for "Something" appear to be the credits for the Escape the Fate song titled "Something" from their album This War Is Ours, and the "Good Vibrations" example are clearly the credits from "Good Vibrations" from Marky Mark and the Funky Bunch. It could just be a glitch in their system where the most recent entry of a song with the same name messes up older entries or something. Might be worth looking into before removing these links from 20,000 pages. Have you tried their Contact Us page? Fezmar9 (talk) 15:54, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

• Not sure why the writers get mixed up (is a Neil Sedaka release of his "Stairway to Heaven" more recent than one from LZ?) The song lyrics links on used WP are supposed to be properly licensed (indicated by the LyricFind logo). Anyway, no one is suggesting that all MetroLyrics links be removed, but I don't think that song links which have been identified as having the wrong songwriters should be used in WP articles. I brought this problem up with the bot operator and his final comment was "Unfortunately most of the sources with correct lyrics are illegal, and most of the sources with legal licensed lyrics are incorrect! It is a tragic state of affairs and I don't see any resolution."[12] I assumed he was in communication with ML and the problem wasn't going to get fixed. Maybe someone in an official WP position could raise the issue with MetroLyrics, otherwise it would probably get ignored. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:29, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Aren't you saying that MetroLyrics is no longer a reliable source? Glitch or not, the same mistakes haven't been corrected in over 2 years (AGF on above). --Richhoncho (talk) 11:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

• With all the errors I've come across, MetroLyrics should not be considered a reliable source for songwriter credits. I haven't compared many of the actual lyrics for accuracy, but sometimes their lyrics are for a different song (for Hendrix's "Stepping Stone", the lyrics and writers are for another song, but they get the album right[13]). A recommended list of lyrics providers (similar to WP:GOODCHARTS and WP:ALBUM/SOURCES) that have been checked for accuracy as well as licensing is a possible solution. Then article editors could choose to include a link or reference it if it appears correct. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:13, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

• JG66, Fezmar9, Richhoncho:
  

1) Should MetroLyrics as a source for songwriter credits be added to the WP:ALBUM/SOURCES#List of unreliable sources (with link to relevant discussion)?

2) Should existing links to MetroLyrics that list incorrect songwriter(s) be removed from articles?

—Ojorojo (talk) 16:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

As a source, it doesn't appear reliable. I'd hope that would mean it belongs on that list, which I was previously unaware.

All links that we know are incorrect must be removed if we value the quality of the articles. --Ronz (talk) 17:04, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Re 1) As long as it's made clear that MetroLyrics is non-RS on the issue of songwriting credits, then yes probably.

On 2) I don't see it as such a problem. From the list at the start of this thread, the Beatles' "Something" is the only song article I've had anything to do with; so, for that article's ext links, I might replace ML with a link to the song lyrics at the Beatles' official site. JG66 (talk) 04:29, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• Re 1. The minimum requirement is that people are made aware that ML may be wrong.
• Re 2. ML should be removed where there is a discrepancy between ML & WP and WP is confirmed to be correct. This is to avoid WP being called to account for inaccurate information which is fairly crucial for any encyclopedia!
• Bearing in mind a conversation on another page, where do people consider the best place to get songwriter details from? --Richhoncho (talk) 10:31, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Two proposals to address these issues are open for discussion:

• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#Proposed addition to List of unreliable sources
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Songs#Proposed addition toWP:SONG#LYRICS

Thanks for your interest. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

George J. Morgan[edit]

George J. Morgan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Would it be acceptable per WP:EL to add www.dropbox.com/sh/e5mqda5g1c14ox5/YJvzhnONiS?preview=zIrish+Times+Obituary+1979.jpg as an external link for the article? I've been searching for an online version of this in the archives of the The Irish Times and did find this which I believe includes a link to the same article/obituary, but it requires a subscription to see. The link to the photo comes from an external link to a drop box of images which was embedded into the article here in January 2014. I'm not sure if adding an external link to all of those photos is appropriate per WP:COPYLINK, but I am wondering if linking to a scan/photo of a newspaper obituary is considered OK. Thanks in advance. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:46, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Embedded external links in Pierrot[edit]

Pierrot (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

While looking at the article Pierrot, I noticed that there were quite a few external links embedded into the body of the article. (See this old version for reference.) My understanding of WP:EL#Links in lists, MOS:LINK#Link titles, WP:RDD and WP:CS#Avoid embedded links is that external links are not allowed to be embedded into articles in this manner; therefore, I was bold and removed them all (49 links in total) here, here and here. Another editor saw my edits and has asked for clarification at User talk:Marchjuly#Pierrot, so I am posting here to see what others have to say. I looked at the links that were embedded to see if they were embedded citations or could be converted to inline citations, but didn't think that was the case for any of them. There were also some links to YouTube or other videos as well as (online) complete published works which might be problematic per WP:COPYLINK. Anyway, if I was too bold and shouldn't have removed the links, then I will happily go back and self-revert. Thanks in advance. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I was asked by @Beebuk: to look into this. Early in his Wikipedia career, we crossed paths and I helped them with some of the trickier aspects of wiki coding policies.

I agree with @Marchjuly: that embedded links do not belong in the article. I confess I was unaware of the exception for external links sections at the end of standalone lists. That may or may not apply in this case but that isn’t the way they’ve been included.

The wording and the graphic in Wikipedia:External_links#Links_in_lists is interesting although I contend it’s a bit confusing. The left column shows an example of how it can be done, while the right column shows an example that is not acceptable. However, the right column is conflating two separate issues which are not clearly discussed in the text. The main problem is that the right-hand example embeds the linked within the list as opposed to an external links section at the end. However, the under state second issue is that an embedded link to Alice’s restaurant is inappropriate while and embedded link in an external links section to a general restaurant guide is acceptable. The implication being that the first is blatant advertising. The point could be clearer if the example also included another option, also unacceptable where embedded links to Alice’s restaurant, etc. are included in the external links section, with an explanation that it is not okay to do blatant advertising simply by dropping it in an external links section. I am fairly sure this is covered in general EL policy; however, I think it is useful to distinguish between a link to a specific restaurant, which is a blatant commercial advertisement for a specific place, and a link to a culturally important document such as behind a Watteau picture. It is my opinion that the latter is very consistent with the goals of Wikipedia. I have reread Wikipedia:External_links#What_can_normally_be_linked and Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided and believe it is acceptable. The editor noted that there were some links to YouTube; I haven’t run across that example yet but agree that links to YouTube are often problematic.

I propose the following. I will go through and create footnotes from what used to be embedded links. After that, we can discuss, on a case-by-case basis, whether any of the footnotes qualify as violation of policy and they can be removed. Any objection?--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:14, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

No objections from me about converting the embedded links to footnotes; I did say that would be OK in my edit sums and on my user talk page. As I said above, I did not feel that any of the ones I removed satisfied WP:RS, so I did not convert them myself. Simply converting them all by adding reftags is simple enough to do from a markup standpoint, but the citations would need to be more than bare urls and would also need to be reliable sources.

I don't think linking to the online version of a book, a poem, a video or a photo as a pseudo-wikilink/red link is automatically OK to do just because the online version exists. Linking to a website, on the other hand, which contains commentary about said book, said poem, said video or said photo which verifies statements in the article (such that it is "culturally important" to subject matter being discussed) is almost surely OK to do as long as the source satisfies WP:RS. I am not saying that "Behind a Watteau Picture" is not culturally important to the subject of Pierrot; however, we cannot simply cite the book itself and then say in Wikipedia's own voice that it is "culturally important". I think what we need is to cite an independent reliable source which discusses "Behind a Watteau Picture" and states that it's culturally important. I also don't think it was appropropriate to embedded links to YouTube into the article using parenthetical statements such as "View a dancing Pierrot Grenade" or "View 'Poor Pierrot'" (FWIW, I didn't link the actual YouTube videos on purpose) because such links are often problematic because of copyright reasons, etc. Essentially telling the reader to "Click here to read this book, see this photo, watch this video" does not seem apropriate for the article content, but might be acceptable for the external links section if there are no problems with WP:ELNEVER or WP:ELNO. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:50, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I haven’t looked at a YouTube link yet, but I agree that YouTube videos are often problematic. I made two edit so far, covering three links each, all of which so far were links to the Internet Archive. I agree that independent reliable sources, i.e. secondary sources are better than primary sources. However, I think primary sources are better than no sources all. If someone identifies a good secondary source, I’d be happy to consider removing the primary source link. I think a footnote is a appropriate because it answers the implicit challenge e.g. as a mention in the article Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote a play, Aria da Capo in 1920. If that is all the article said, a reasonable reader could say “really? Please prove it to me”. A secondary, reliable source discussing the play would work as a footnote demonstrating the existence of the play, but so does an Internet archive of this public domain work. I don’t see it as exactly analogist to the Apple example. If an article contained an assertion that Joe Blow worked at Apple, and “Apple” was link to the official Apple page, that wouldn’t be inappropriate footnote supporting the claim. No reasonable person is likely to contest the existence of a company called Apple, but it is quite plausible they my question whether a play by that name was written by a person of that name in that year. The other five links which I converted to footnotes are all in exactly the same category — they provide an answer to the implicit question whether that playwright wrote that play.

I’m not yet suggesting that all of the external links can appropriately be converted into footnotes. I’m starting with the low hanging fruit. I see that some of the links are not Internet archive links so I will discuss them as I address them.

As a relevant aside, while investigating the use of the Internet archive as a link, I was pointed to our copyright policy which explicitly states It is currently acceptable to link to internet archives such as the Wayback Machine… --S Philbrick(Talk) 00:23, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: I seem to have slightly misunderstood your first post about the cultural importance of some of these works. I read it as "these works are culturally important so that we should link to websites where the work can be viewed". My response was based upon not whether the work itself existed or was written by so and so, but on whether we could say it was culturally significant in Wikipedia's voice simply by citing the work itself. I understand that if the point of the citation is just to show who is the author or when the work was written, then citing the book, etc. itself is probably OK per WP:PSTS. However, a website where the entire work can be viewed online seems to be more of a convenience link than the original source itself. It's not necessary to link to online versions of books, poems, essays, etc. just to verify who wrote them or when they were written. The original work should be cited using {{cite book}} or {{cite journal}} without using the "url" parameter instead of using {{cite web}} to cite the convenience link. Printed works can often be identified by ISBN or ASIN numbers so there's really no need to link to the full text or pasages of the work itself, unless there is a specific passage within the text which is being used is being used to support article content. Behind a Watteau Picture has an isbn number that can be used to identify the book. There are ISBN or ASIN numbers for Aria da capo, a play in one act, The Maker of Dreams, The Only Legend: A Masque of the Scarlet Pierrot and Prunella: or, Love in a Dutch Garden which can be used to identify them as well. In addition, the magazine The Drama is the source for "The Dream Maker" so citing that using {{cite magazine}} with the relevant issue and page numbers and the year of publication seems in my opinion more appropriate than than simply linking to an online version of the entire work. If a convenience link to the entire work for any of these is deemed necessary, then using the "via" parameter identifying the website should probably be used instead of listing the website as the "publisher". -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I probably did not express myself clearly, which is understandable, as I thinking through some of these issues, and they are not all clearcut to me. I start with the well=know quote from Jimmy, in Wikipedia:Prime objective:

"Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing."

– Jimmy Wales, quoted in Slashdot (2004-07-28)

That may be overly broad but is not as broad as some imagine, if one emphasizes “understanding” (as used in the article knowledge). For example, an alphabetic list of all the words used in a recent email to a friend is a verifiable fact, but we don’t even need to lean on our notability guideline to exclude it, we can lean on the word “understanding” and assert that such a list doesn’t meaningfully contribute to our understanding of the world.

Now imagine an article about Mary, in which the following statement is made: ‘’Mary worked at Joe’s Restaurant.’’ It is easy to imagine that a reader may wonder if the statement is actually true, and for that reason we think it is useful to provide a reference in which an independent reliable source states that Mary actually did work at that restaurant. If the restaurant itself is notable, we might have an article about it and we would blue link the name of the restaurant. However, an external link, or even a footnote to the official page of the restaurant would be viewed as advertising. The reader is interested in the truth of the assertion, but isn’t necessarily interested in more information about the restaurant itself.

In contrast, if a reader is reading an article about Pierrot, and that article includes a relevant list of notable works, such as Edna St. Vincent Millay’s ‘’Aria da Capo’’, it is quite plausible that the reader will be interested in that play. In an ideal world we will have a separate article about the play itself, and perhaps we will someday, but short of that, I think a footnote that brings the reader to the play itself provides a valuable service and one that would be expected by the reader of an encyclopedia.

The editor has provided an enormous service by tracking down and identifying some of these valuable historical documents. We can continue to debate how best to include such information in this article, but I don’t see the footnotes as comparable to advertising.--S Philbrick(Talk) 14:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Link(s) to blog(s)[edit]

I am troubled by the (former) inclusion of this link (currently removed):

• The Eternal Adventure of Pierrot and Columbine

My main concern is that it is a blog. While some think that blogs are never permitted, that’s not quite the case. They can be used when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. (See WP:BLOGS). I don’t know enough about the author of the blog to know whether that applies, but I would not support conversion to a footnote unless it can be demonstrated that it meets the policy.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• This link is also to a blog. I know nothing about the author and would therefore suggest more investigation is needed to see if the author qualifies for the exception regarding links to blog content.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

American Verse Project[edit]

One of the embedded links is to the text of Bliss Carman and Mary Perry King Kennerly’s ‘’Pas de trois’’

That link goes to the American Verse Project, whose guidelines for use includes the follow:

Individuals are allowed to use the texts freely, whether to create new editions, distribute to students, or use as a basis for multimedia products. Institutions such as universities, publishers, or online providers are required to seek permission from the Press and, in some cases, pay a fee, in order to use or distribute the texts. (Emphasis added).

It is possible this section is included because some of the material subject to copyright. The “conditions of use” section links to Access and Use Policy which states:

• Users are free to cite and link to digital content without asking for permission.

• Users are free to download, copy, and distribute works in the public domain without asking for permission. To determine whether a work is in the public domain, see the section on the public domain of the Copyright & Fair Use site of Stanford University Libraries.

• If you reproduce or republish public domain content from our collections, please credit the University of Michigan Library as the source of the original.

Given this information, I have chosen not to restore the link as a footnote, but suggest contacting the University of Michigan to clarify that they agree that the 1914 document is in the public domain and can be linked freely.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:52, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Internet archive links converted to footnotes[edit]

In addition to the ones identified at the beginning of this section:

• I converted the link to Deburau – clearly identified as “not in copyright”, to a footnote, following the same reasoning as above.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick: It seems that we are in agreement regarding the embedding of external links into the article. If that's the case, then I believe ELN has served its role and it's probably best to move this discussion to another page. We both have started to drift off into discussing various citation methods and possible copyright violations. If this thread gets any longer, there's a chance that it be collapsed by another editor as something more suited for another page. There is a specific noticeboard to discuss the reliability of sources, etc. at WP:RSN where the reliability of the blogs, etc. you mentioned can be queried and content matters (like citation styles, etc.) can be discussed on the article's talk page. I'm happy to continue discussing whether external links should be embedded into articles here with you, but other discussions should probably now be moved to another location. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:42, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'm documenting my progress on this article here per your request, but I agree with you that I'm drifting into ancillary issues. It is actually a fascinating process, because I've learned a bit about a number of related issues, but I agree that posting all of that here is getting off-topic. I hope you note that I haven't taken the position of 100% conversion; I've identified some situations that do not belong (or at least require some substantial research which I doubt will support the inclusion).

I'm not yet done — one of the YouTube links is rather interesting, and requires more research. Perhaps I should just update my explanation of any edits I make on the article talk page. Will that work for you? If we find ourselves in disagreement we can take the specific item to the appropriate place.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

By "agreement", I was asking if we agree that the aforementioned links should not be embedded into the article. If that's what we agree on, then I think we can move on from ELN and start discussing whether or how a certain link should converted into an inline citation on the article's talk page or at RSN. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikitree[edit]

What's your take on {{Wikitree name}} being used in the external links section? I think it runs afoul of WP:ELNO #12, although others have disagreed and stated its both stable and has a large number of editors. More importantly, though, I think it just doesn't add anything of value to our articles.

In the single article it's currently in use in, David Niven, the "biography" on Niven hosted by Wikitree just references Wikipedia. The only value added is perhaps the family tree, but any ancestors relevant to an encyclopedia should be covered in the article itself. Additionally, there's no references provided for the family tree. I question whether this provides reliable enough information to be included in the external links.

I'd like opinions on this before I take this to TfD. Note the past TfD of a related template here. ~ Rob^Talk 16:42, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• No response here, so I went ahead and nominated it at WP:TfD. See Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2016_April_18#Template:Wikitree_name if you care to participate. ~ Rob^Talk 03:10, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

User Chillatulit appears to be inserting external links to similar articles on corporate pages.[edit]

His 13 April contributions all appear to be external links to TechStory corporate page - with a column of material related to the Wikipedia subject -- the rest of the space relating to the corporation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.71.159.231 (talk) 06:26, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

User warned. - MrX 11:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)