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Draft articles and Wikidata[edit]

Draft articles can be linked to Wikidata items (as long as those items have links to real articles on other Wikipedias). Then inter-language links to the English draft article appear in other language versions of the article. However there are no links from the draft article to the other language versions.

This strikes me as the wrong way round. When writing a draft you would want to refer to the other language versions. But arguably, we should not be linking a draft article from an article in mainspace.

Does anyone know anything about this? An example can be seen at Draft:Niall Horan whose corresponding item is Niall Horan (Q775231). — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

No one else has commented on this. Perhaps it is not a big issue. But I am intending to open a ticket on phabricator to look at this bug. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Request for old stale pages in draft namespace[edit]

Hi, I made this suggestion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Abandoned_Drafts#Request_for_old_stale_pages_in_draft_namespace as well but I was looking to make a request for a list of old stale drafts in draftspace. I was thinking of asking for a list of all draftspace pages that haven't been edited in two years (one year or 18 months is probably more on point but let me try two years and go from there. Proposals for a category or mass inclusion have been rejected so it'd have to be manual review. Those won't have AFC banner since anything older than six months without an AFC would show up under G13. Basically it would be a manual review of the pages for MFD or for adoption (which I think could be done as "I've adopted the page to take it back and put it under the AFC banner") but I'm open to ideas. My thoughts are maybe a 2 year old check once every six months as a backlog project for Abandoned draft or something. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

Isn't there a bot that tags them {{db-g13}} after six months or so, which means there won't be any left that are unedited in two years? --Redrose64 (talk) 08:16, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

That should happen only for drafts created through AfC. Drafts created from other processes are not candidates for CSD G13. Diego (talk) 12:52, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Ricky81682: Here ya go: User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report. These are pages that haven't been edited in 6 months. 2 years is not feasible as that would be before we introduced the Draft namespace, I believe?

There's some interesting stuff in here, much of it deletable. Also lots of promising content that can be taken advantage of, and other content that now has a mainspace counterpart. The "Tagged" column refers to whether {{draft article}} was added to the page, which puts it in the category Category:Draft articles. Any page that's worth keeping should probably be in that category, I think. Let me know if there's more information the bot could fetch. I was also going to query for redirects that have 0 links to them, but that's a massive query it turns out – and redirects are cheap, so not really much of a concern. Best — MusikAnimal ^talk 16:10, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I see you're also working through Category:Stale userspace drafts. I can have the bot generate a similar report for these, showing the page length, number of revisions, etc. That might help identify those that have potential and those that are essentially test pages. — MusikAnimal ^talk 16:18, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

If we are truly looking to clean up these drafts, I think we should exercise a little WP:IAR. Many of the ones with one or two revisions are either test pages or contain very little content to the point it has no potential whatsoever, and the author has made little if any other contributions. I think we can save time and bypass MfD for such pages, and delete them as meeting one of the G-criteria, perhaps G6 in particular. Meanwhile there's lots of vandalism that we don't even need to question deleting, along with some G5's and even attack pages. — MusikAnimal ^talk 18:27, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm working through stale drafts through Wikipedia:WikiProject Abandoned Drafts/Stale drafts. You don't need to use IAR so much as use template:inactive userpage blanked and blank the page. Anything more and there are users who do object (even taking these pages to MFD has some objectors). If it's an incomplete incomprehensible draft (as a lot are), blanking is fine in the long, long shot that the user comes back and works on it. That's presuming that the editor is actual inactive so it is quite a tedious process. What would really help is if someone could have a bot guess the article title and put a link to mainspace version, if it exists (next to each link item I guess). A lot of those articles are copies of mainspace articles whenever they get listed for deletion. You can tell by looking at it by time through Category:Userspace drafts created via the Article Wizard and Category:Userspace drafts and seeing the hundreds of pages based off template:infobox video game from the 2008-2009 time period when various video game articles were up for deletion. It's the same reason you get a bunch of discussions like this and have to weed these out in chunks. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah userspace drafts are certainly a different story as they exert some form of ownership over it, so I wouldn't delete there at all unless it's blatantly inappropriate.

I think I can help you with the bot needs. Just going to list out what I'm able to do:

• Identifying if there is a mainspace counterpart, such as the right column at User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report
• Report if the user is inactive (maybe no edits in a year?)
• Report if the user is blocked, and show the block reason
• Check if the page creator is the owner of the userspace. This could help identify vandalism
• Create dedicated pages for drafts that meet any of the above criterion

So for instance, you might want a dedicated page for drafts not created by the userspace owner, as you might be able to fly through those quickly. Or a dedicated page for drafts for which there's a mainspace version, etc. I see you've got your list sorted alphabetically. We could also create another index of pages that are sorted by page size. This helps wean out the not-so-promising drafts and those that have actual potential. Just some thoughts. The bot generated the report of 6,000 stale draftspace pages in about 5 minutes, so the aforementioned tasks shouldn't be a crazy expensive operation — MusikAnimal ^talk 20:39, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I really don't think there's any shortcuts here. It's just going to be a long process. That list is alphabetical but Category:Userspace drafts created via the Article Wizard works by age. It's pretty quick to fly though if you look for pages with "New article" and the detail wording and nothing else and just Template:inactive userpage blanked those. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Not G6. Is it really the case that none of the other WP:CSD criteria fit (for example, if it's a test page, can you justify G2)? G6 is used far too often as a "none of the others fit" excuse, which it should not be. --Redrose64 (talk) 20:52, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

If none of the CSDs match exactly, round up OFUN (Objective, Frequent, Uncontestable, Nonredundant from Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Header paraphrased) documentation and propose the new CSD rule. I am also poking at User:MusikBot/StaleDrafts/Report with the oldest drafts by either MFDing them (to establish the uncontestable/frequent components), redirecting them to an appropriate mainspace article or subsection of an article, requesting a histmerge to unify a stale Copy/Paste, or poking the author of the draft to see if they're interested in improving the draft or to exercise the "User requested deletion" CSD on their own. Hasteur (talk) 14:01, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

G11 works for when the name is obvious, otherwise U5 is something that some admins will look over and consider. There's a lot of IP address content as seen here with people creating pages in their non-logged in address for some odd reason so U2 comes up as well. For even the worst drafts, it's easier for me to just "adopt" those and dump those into AFC to be deleted under G13 in six months than to take them to MFD or otherwise. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:36, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Tool for moving to draftspace[edit]

I review a fair amount of new, undersourced articles and many of these need to be kicked to draftspace and tagged for AfC. Is there any tool that already automates this? (moves page+talk to draftspace while suppressing redirect, updates wikiproject tags, sanitizes page of cats & tags, and marks the page as an unsubmitted AfC draft) If not, this macro would be incredibly useful. czar 17:38, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Sounds like a useful addition to the Page Curation tool. Maybe suggest it over there? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:10, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Clarification over main-space to draft-space moves[edit]

Replace RfC banner per request at the help desk. Removal is done based on the first timestamp. Please feel free to remove this line when the discussion is completed. --Majora (talk) 18:12, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Can editors move articles that are not CSD candidates from the main-space into the draft-space? - hahnchen 02:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• No - In the Incubation subsection of Wikipedia:Drafts, clause iv states that editors may WP:BOLDLY move articles from the main space into the draft space. This clause was added in a merge from Wikipedia:Article Incubator, a process that drafts replace. However, the incubator explicitly disallows articles to be moved which were not part of the deletion process. A similar process is userfication, and like the incubator, "articles not undergoing deletion process" were explicitly marked WP:USERFY#NO. User:James500 had previously noted the discrepancy in the draft guidelines in Archive 4. The clause was removed but reverted by User:Jackmcbarn.

WP:AI describes incubation as "soft deletion", WP:USERFY states that the process "effectively amount[s] to deletion of an article". Wikipedia has never allowed for removal of articles from the main space without process. Drafts should follow long-standing, widely held Wikipedia wide belief that removing articles from the main space requires consensus. Drafts are optional, they should not be imposed upon by others. The only main-space articles that can be moved to the draft-space should be CSD candidates. - hahnchen 02:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• Draft:The Story of Bonnie and Clyde is an example of an article that went into the incubator as a bold move.  Bulma was not part of a deletion process.  https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Article_Incubator&oldid=393921998 states, "Article incubation is a process for identifying and improving articles that seem to have potential, but which are currently on track to be deleted or userfied. Articles can be moved, in lieu of deletion, from the main encyclopedia to the article incubator, where they are worked on collaboratively."  Unscintillating (talk) 00:18, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Did it take you three weeks to come up with those "positive" examples? Because there are multiple examples below where removing articles from the mainspace without process was at best useless and at worst detrimental. The only thing removing The Story of Bonnie and Clyde did was to turn an AFD that should have happened in 2011 to an MFD that is happening now. The article has not been edited for three years, because unindexed and unsearchable in the draftspace, no one knows it exists. For Bulma, that was redirected to a parent page after notability concerns were raised on the talk page. Only after that did it get copied into the draftspace, where only following an MFD for being stale 12 months did any improvement get moved back into the mainspace. - hahnchen 09:06, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
    • Having drafts difficult to find is certainly a problem, but deleting them is certainly not going to solve it. How exactly is Wikipedia improved by having Draft:The Story of Bonnie and Clyde removed instead of visible? Diego (talk) 11:40, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

• Yes  WP:BRD identifies the right to edit without getting permission as a fundamental principle.  A WP:BOLD move needs no permission, just as the revert of a bold move needs no permission.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:41, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • This is the obligatory reminder that WP:BRD is not only "just an essay", but also an essay that explicitly says its advice does not apply to many situations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Yes - it's perfectly acceptable to move a newly created article in terrible shape to the draft space. As long as they're not breaking BRD, there's nothing wrong with it. It can be a constructive way to improve articles that may have potential but are nowhere near ready for the main space in their current form. An editor doing this should be commended for giving an article more time before deletion, not scolded for being harsh. Sergecross73 msg me 03:34, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Those "newly created articles in terrible shape" should be limited to CSD candidates such as expired PRODs, not articles that editors don't like. We have cleanup for that, you can even boldly clean it up if you like, or if you really don't like, you can send it to AFD and !vote for draftification. - hahnchen 09:46, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
    • I don't follow what that example is supposed to prove. The article was recently created, is a stub, doesn't contain any commonly used sources, is almost entirely plot summary (obviously MOS:PLOT violating), contains no notable actors, and nowhere did Czar indicate that he "didn't like the film". Its a prime example of "maybe its notable, but not at all ready for the mainspace." Did you link to the wrong example or what? Sergecross73 msg me 13:37, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Stubs belong in the article space. - hahnchen 14:29, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
        • They sure do. But I'm pretty sure I listed off another 5 qualms with its current status as well. Sergecross73 msg me 14:59, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
          • If those qualms don't justify deletion, they don't justify de facto deletion via draftification. If you remove the article from mainspace due to non-deletion-worthy concerns that the author is unable/unwilling to fix, you are deleting it in all but name. Tagging seems like a better solution. A2soup (talk) 09:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
            • You're deleting the article, right; and there's no difference expect por one insignificant detail: editors can't read the content of an article that has been deleted, but they can read it if it has been moved to draft. Remember that content that is useful and verifiable can nevertheless be removed completely from sight through a deletion; placing it at draft space would make it available for reuse at other articles as mandated by WP:PRESERVE.

            Of course the move to draft should be made only for deletion-worthy concerns, I agree 100% with keeping notable articles in main space even if they're of poor quality. But there's a difference between an article needing to be deleted, and its content having to be deleted. There's a lot of valid content that should not be deleted, even if the article where it's are placed should be. Diego (talk) 10:41, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

            In my time of CSD patrolling, I've come across brand new editors that jump straight to creating their new article. They've got good intentions, but the articles lack any semblance of notability, structure, or formatting. If I speedy delete it, I often see them never come back again. If I move it to draft space, explaining what's wrong and where to get help on creating an encyclopedic article, sometimes they're able to restructure the content into something more passable and acceptable. I think these are the types of situations were this is a good idea - where it helps morale and retention, and where the editor can take their time on improving an obviously not ready for mainspace article without it being targeted for deletion. Sergecross73 msg me 14:05, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

            • No one is arguing against the speedy removal of CSD candidates into the draft space. - hahnchen 14:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• No, that would be disasterous for the reasons that I previously explained (see archive 4 linked to above), for the reasons explained by Hahnchen above, with which I agree, and because, if we allow draftification without process or consensus, deletionists will go on a draftify spree. They will commit indiscriminate mass draftification (cf MASSNOM) to the annoyance of everyone. Then they will bully anyone who reverts them. They already bully anyone who removes a PROD. Let's not give them more opportunities to misbehave, especially in a place where no one is watching. I should also point out that clause iv lacks consensus. James500 (talk) 04:31, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • "Would be disasterous"? It's the current consensus, and has been, and I'm not aware of these frequent "disasters" occuring. The closest thing I've seen was Hahnchen's recent dispute, and even that was mostly editors arguing over ideologies, no actual wrong-doing, edit warring or bullying occurred. And of course, any decision made in the RFC would be made with the understanding that BRD should be followed, Edit Warring is not acceptable, etc. I'm even of the mindset that the person should probably leave a short note on the article creator's talk page. Basically, if there's much of a dispute with it, then they'd be following your mindset more so. The problems/hesitations you you, could really be applied to any and all aspects of the Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 15:08, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
    • How can you be aware of disasters occurring? The only reason I'm aware is that I follow Wikiproject new article logs. This is what happens right now - A new user creates an article. It disappears without notice. No redirect is left behind. If they figure out where it went by logging in, and looking at their contributions, which might not be obvious, they may stumble upon the draftspace and whatever further hurdles that brings. They may just assume the article was speedied. At what point would anyone else be aware of that. These are new editors, they may not even know that they can revert the move, or where to appeal. - hahnchen 22:36, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Moving an article to draftspace does leave a redirect in place. I suppose it could be followed from the moves log, and anyone following a URL that pointed to the previous article would find the draft instead. Even if the redirect is deleted, I thought it was discussed that there should be a template to notify users that there's a draft with the same name of the deleted article? That would solve the problem you mention. Diego (talk) 09:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
        • Redirects from the main space into draft space are speedily deleted. - hahnchen 11:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
          • How can I be aware? Usually "disasters" result in big discussions at relevant WikiProjects or ANI. The only ones I've witnessed are you complaining that you don't like how editors do it. Not exactly a disaster. Are you guys really arguing in favor of these "hypothetical disasters"? Are you guys just getting over-dramatic to argue a point? Can someone actually prove that there's actual major issues occurring that are causing trouble? Sergecross73 msg me 15:16, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes per WP:PRESERVE, as it's a good way to keep around content that doesn't belong as a stand-alone article and for which there's not an obvious place to merge (articles about topics at the edge of notability or with contested sorces, content with a current shape that doesn't comply with WP:NOT but that could be cleaned-up and expanded to pass it...) Content in Draft space that didn't come from Articles from Creation isn't removed after an arbitrary time limit, so that's a good way to keep it around for reuse, allowing interested editors to find it without clogging the main space. Diego (talk) 14:25, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Not instantly. I would say for non-CSD cases there needs to be a process similar to PROD, which let's the article sit for a week or some such and get moved if no one objects. Just as most PRODs, the nominator is generally acting in good faith, but they may not be aware of sources or some other information that would prevent the move. I guess this would be an option between PROD and AfD->Draftify —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 16:11, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I would agree in the sense that we should give a few days for an article to gain some legs, and not rush to move to draft space within hours of creation, a situation frequently argued with the application of CSD tags. After a few days, it's fair game to move. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
    • You don't need a process similar to PROD. You just need PROD. When the prod expires, editors are free to draftify the article instead of deleting it. - hahnchen 17:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
      • The {{PROD}} template is a terrible message to put on a page that one thinks is better at AFC/Drafts, as it starts "this article may be deleted". Since no one is talking deletion here, only relocating to a specific space on WP where we allow in-development content to be kept indefinitely, I would not use that. I would consider a "PDraft" (Proposed draft) template that says, to the effect "This article is a candidate to be moved to draft space. If you can expand it further with reliable sources, please do. Moving to draft space will not delete this article." . --MASEM (t) 20:45, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I agree with the "not instantly" part; this is the current policy for any article move now, as moves are hard to revert. Diego (talk) 09:12, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes but they generally shouldn't. I don't think this should be a forbidden action, but it's usually not a good idea to move something to draft space (or userspace) unless someone is willing to actively work on it. It would probably just sit and rot until it's eventually deleted as a stale draft. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:01, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes with notification to page creator. Agree with Unscintillating and Sergecross73 in general. I'm more ambivalent towards the idea of a "Pdraft" process as discussed by Hellknowz and Masem, but would not oppose. -- ferret (talk) 22:35, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Comment It should be noted that the Deletion Policy addresses this directly as an alternative to deletion.. -- ferret (talk) 22:55, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
• Contextual - Sometimes it shouldn't happen, sometimes it should. Honestly, just direct the editor to the Wiki Peer Review™, or the Wiki TeaHouse™ for evaluation and help from more experienced editors, while possibly moving back into mainspace if the article has already passed through AfC (some editors don't use AfC, some do - just be aware). Cheers, Doctor Crazy in Room 102 of The Mental Asylum 00:13, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• No - Like the link above we're gonna end up with articles dating back to 2008 being moved aswell .... and then what happens when the editor buggers off ? ... Someone will unknowingly CSD-tag it and then we'd have lost an article that ideally didn't need deleting, So quite honestly I think it'd be a complete and utter disaster, (I don't mind if an article was say created a week or 2 ago and gets moved to draft but over 2 weeks would be a disaster I think.) –Davey2010^Talk 00:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
  • For clarity, which link above do you mean concerning an article dating back to 2008? -- ferret (talk) 01:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
    • Sorry "The link above" was Gamer (2011 film) and as for the 2008 thing I meant as in overall articles, Hopefully that's made abit more sense :) –Davey2010^Talk 02:00, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Here's a 2007 article speedily removed from the main space - Draft:Toxjq. - hahnchen 11:39, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Drafts that weren't created through Articles for Creation cannot be CSDd. The G13 criterion was explicitly made to cover only drafts with the {{AFC submission}} tag. Diego (talk) 09:03, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• No. An article which can't be deleted in its current state should be kept in the article namespace. A user can, if necessary, make a clone of it (or part of it) elsewhere to work on, but the article itself should stay in the article space. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:28, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

How about cloning it to the Draft space? And what if the article should be deleted from the main space, as it lacks notability, but the contents are verifiable and could be used elsewhere? In such case, there's no difference with moving the article to Draft, except that the edit history would be lost. Diego (talk) 09:03, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

I explicitly mentioned cloning it elsewhere; the draft space would certainly work. As to articles which should be deleted, either they get speedy, or they get PROD/AfD; in the former case, they may be moved to the draft space if some user thinks (s)he can improve it enough; in the latter case, wait until it would almost be deleted (wait 7 days for PROD, request it explicitly in an AfD). עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:47, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• No (Oops, accidentally !voted again below! I'm still a no and stand by both comments, but it's only right to strike one.) unless explicitly agreed to by author (in cases where a clear primary author exists), or if it is eligible for deletion as an expired PROD or valid CSD, or if consensus to draftify is established (e.g. at AfD). Unscintillating makes a good point about WP:BRD. To respond, I would argue that moves (especially out of the mainspace) are not equivalent to edits, as they are unreversable by non-autoconfirmed users and thus equivalent to blanking and semiprotecting a stable page with no vandalism or socking, a clearly unacceptable action. If the right to edit in mainspace without getting permission is fundamental, then controversial, non-consensus draftification is unacceptable. Note that per WP:MOVE and WP:RM#CM, moves expected to be controversial should have consensus. (I think the idea proposed by Hellknowz and Masem would be fine, as a week without removing the template could be understood as agreement by the author and would serve as a form of expedited consensus, as with PROD.) A2soup (talk) 09:57, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes. I agree with what I'm reading as the general consensus: (1) under- or inappropriately sourced new articles, after given reasonable time to expand, can be brought to incubate in draftspace, which is preferable to triggering an immediate AfD, (2) that we should have some sort of user talk template for page creators in this case, and (3) that it is a bad idea to bring older articles (not recently created) to draftspace, as the original creators will be even less likely to address the changes. I think these things are reasonable. I'm not sure a pre-move draft needs to be untouched for a week (our author will be even less likely to work with a reviewer if we only start addressing the article once they're gone for a week), but if we do agree that there needs to be a "countdown", a PROD-like tag sounds like a solution. To the overall point, past the cherrypicking, when I patrol new articles, many new users are unaware of Articles for Creation's existence, nevertheless its purpose (to guide them through notability, reliable sources, etc.) I see no detriment to new users being made aware of this process instead of being thrown into an esoteric and coarse, full-on AfD discussion. All in all, when I consider what's best for the encyclopedia, having a new user guided through the ropes (by someone prepared to do so) is much better than either letting the undersourced or inappropriately sourced article languish in mainspace or raking the new user over the coals of AfD. czar 14:19, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes but generally there should be consensus to do so either through CSD or otherwise. However, there are cases where an article may only have a single significant contributor, and achieving a consensus of editors maybe difficult. Some might suggest to userify these articles, but the draft namespace may draw more eyes to help its development.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
  • This RFC is asking whether removal from the mainspace can happen without process and without engagement with the "significant contributor". - hahnchen 16:33, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
• Yes, but only for new articles. There should be some time limit here so that people don't start mass-migrating old stubs to the draft namespace. I think if an article has survived for a month or so in the main namespace, you shouldn't be able to move it to draft namespace without discussion. Kaldari (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Old articles (sometimes several years old) get deleted, too. I'd rather see those moved to draft space than completely removed and inaccessible. Mandating some previous discussion might be OK, but IMO requiring a full RfC or other formal process is overkill except when the move is contested. Honestly, I would treat moving articles to draft space just like any other page move. Diego (talk) 23:11, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Old articles should only be removed from the mainspace via the deletion process, same for new articles - which was exactly the case before the speedy draft clause was implemented without discussion or consensus. It really does mandate process, because one should not be able to speedily draft an article from 2004, and have it silently deleted in 6 months. - hahnchen 00:22, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• What is being asked? - For a lasting move, there needs to be consensus. But just as one can WP:BOLDly decide to turn a page into a redirect, merge content, or just about anything else, one can decide the best course of action is to move to Drafts/Userspace/wherever. Someone else is then free to revert and the move would then have to be discussed before redone. This seems pretty standard, so what is this RfC asking? If it's simply "is such a move ever allowed", then my answer is "obviously, yes". If you're proposing disallowing such moves, I would say "no". — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 02:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• For what its worth, the proposer has also complained multiple times to WikiProject Video Games about about editors and their BOLD redirects/merges, where he's usually told by editors (myself included) that its allowed as long as its a good-faith, with edit summaries, and following BRD. So basically, he seems to have the same hangups with your examples of things that are also okay. You make an interesting point though - even if there was a consensus against BOLD moves to draftspace, then editors would just take the BOLD redirect route instead, which isn't particularly better, as new editors often mistake redirects for outright deletion/unavailability of content. Sergecross73 msg me 16:35, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• @Rhododendrites: Previous guidelines that drafts replace such as the article incubator and userfication, and long standing deletion policy, state that articles can only be removed from the main space via the deletion process. The current draft guideline says that deletion process is no longer required. The question is being asked to ascertain whether that change is endorsed. - hahnchen 17:19, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• WP:Deletion Policy does NOT say articles can only be moved from mainspace via deletion process. It does however directly state that incubation to Draftspace is an alternate to deletion, and appears to support the current guideline here. -- ferret (talk) 17:45, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Yes but long standing deletion policy gave no allowance to the removal of articles from the main space without process. The incubation paragraph, which directly contradicted what was written in the incubator itself, was added without discussion. It is the same change as is being discussed here. - hahnchen 18:06, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• This diff during the closure of Article incubator suggests that editors involved in the creation of the Drafts namespace and closing the incubator felt there was some consensus for this to be included. However, trying to comb the multiple discussions and RFCs from that period I couldn't find anything conclusive. Could @Davidwr and Unscintillating possibly be able to point to the right discussion to show this? -- ferret (talk) 15:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• I was not active during the heyday of the WP:AI.  SilkTork might know if there was discussion, and I don't recall being aware of his involvement on this topic.  Do we agree that we all have, as a fundamental principle, the right to edit without getting permission? Unscintillating (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
• See also the editing guideline WP:Be Bold#Non article namespaces.  Unscintillating (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• No While obviously people can ignore rules and be bold, we should advise against it. Articles should not be moved out of mainspace without some sort of deletion process. If it is bad enough to need to be removed from mainspace, it is bad enough to go through consensus building deletion processes. If it's just not good, we have cleanup templates. By moving it out of the mainspace, we actually reduce the chances of it being seen and cleaned up. Wugapodes (talk) 18:17, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

• Deletion processes are for articles that need admin tools.  WP:Deletion policy, in the section on Alternatives to Deletion states,

  Articles which have potential, but which do not yet meet Wikipedia's quality standards, may be moved to the Wikipedia:Drafts namespace, where they may continue to be collaboratively edited before either "graduating" to mainspace or ultimately being deleted.

Unscintillating (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• No per Wugapodes. What if we had editors boldly removing articles (maybe for POV reasons) moving articles into userspace or draft namespace and those articles getting re-created by someone else in article namespace? Now we have two competing versions? Draft namespace exist primarily for n00bs and CoI editors and those perfected drafts get moved into article namespace by WikiProject AfC. It's not meant to work the other way. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:54, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
• No, per nom, James500 and Chris troutman. FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 14:57, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
• Only for new articles, recently placed in mainspace and woefully unready. Articles for which an AfD decision to userfy of move to Draft is obvious. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:46, 31 January 2016 (UTC)
• No, unless it's passed an AfD where someone has agreed to pick it up. There currently exists a discrepancy in the policies; WP:USERFY#NO states that articles can only be draftified after passing an AfD, while WP:ATD-I states that draftification is an alternative to deletion but doesn't state when it should be applied. Since draftification essentially amounts to deletion (which currently requires either consensus or meeting certain criteria), and the current draft policy tries to prevent abandoned drafts as much as possible, I propose that articles only be draftified if an editor, whether it be the original creator or someone else, agrees to take over and try and improve it to be mainspace worthy. --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 00:55, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Nathan2055: The major issue with your recommended solution is that in WP:AFD's current state and guidelines, the nominator has to nominate the article specifically for deletion. Other editors are free to suggest alternatives during the course of the discussion, but the nominator is restricted to advocating for deletion. If any other action is suggested by the nominator, the discussion gets closed to "wrong forum". If your idea is to be executed adequately, AFD needs to be renamed "Articles for discussion" first to allow the nominator to provide alternative options than deletion. Steel1943 (talk) 20:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• Depends on the situation. Idea: A new process similar to AfD could be introduced for these types of cases. Have it act like an AfD but call it something else (or just call it AfD and make AfD "Articles for Discussion"). But like AfD, people can be bold and do it instantly. Anarchyte (work | talk) 09:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
  • User:Anarchyte, you cannot be bold and delete articles instantly. Would you have "boldly" deleted Nintendo Quest? That article was moved to the draft space without discussion, I reverted it, you then sent it to AFD and then withdrew it two hours later following an expansion by User:MichaelQSchmidt. Would you have known of the article's existence had it stayed in draft space? Unilaterally drafted articles assume that invisible articles get more attention than visible ones. - hahnchen 11:48, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
    • It seems that you've been at Wikipedia since 2006 and you still don't know that only admins can delete articles, or perhaps you assumed that Anarchyte was an admin?  Unscintillating (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Or perhaps I employed a rhetorical device which 'whoosh'. - hahnchen 11:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Hahnchen When I nominated it for AfD it was in a horrible state, no actual references, very little info, etc. Anarchyte (work | talk) 05:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Anarchyte I agree that the article was in a bad state. It would still be in a bad state had it remained in draft. - hahnchen 11:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• No. I have tagged the line to indicate that it is under discussion. I don't think the wording should remain; it does not provide a rationale or guidance on the circumstances when an editor may unilaterally soft-delete an article, nor does it offer any protections against possible misuse. There may be scope for us to consider circumstances when articles should be removed from mainspace without prior discussion for a reason not yet given under deletion policy - such as when an article is poorly written, though we should have a widely advertised discussion about that, and get broader consensus. We would need to set up guidance for the circumstances where someone can and can't do it, and what notification (if any) they should give, and how such moves can be challenged or swiftly undone. Referring to the wording in WP:ATD-I is misleading as that is not discussing the accepted processes, which are dealt with in the following section: WP:DEL-PROCESSES. Currently we do not hard or soft delete pages from mainspace without consensus or accepted rationales (and certainly not without notifying the page creator at least!). Though we do allow merges and redirects to take place without consensus, we would regard the essential difference in that a merge or redirect leaves a page in place under the original name, which directs readers to the new place, while a move into draftspace removes the original page and any redirect, so it is completely vanished. That is an important distinction. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 14:14, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• @SilkTork:: (1) WP:Soft deletion and WP:SOFTDELETE are a redirects to WP:Deletion process...the definition you are using from WP:AI has been marked "historical".  (2) You are the editor who added the word "may" in WP:ATD-I, that articles "may" be moved to draft space, diff.  (3) WP:ATD-I is a part of alternatives to deletion, while WP:DEL-PROCESSES is for deletion processes.  (4) You've not discussed the impact on a fundamental principle, the right to edit without permission.  Why isn't incubation an admin process?  Unscintillating (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• From the lede of WP:Deletion policy,

“

Deletion of a Wikipedia article removes the current version and all previous versions from public view. Page blanking can be performed (or reverted) by any user, but only administrators can perform deletion, view deleted pages, and reverse ("undelete") any deletion.

”

Unscintillating (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• If it's not allowed, it should be, within reason - especially for brand-new or just-moved-to-article-space articles that haven't already been through a review process.

  "Within reason" because moving to Draft: works best for new articles if either

  • the topic isn't notable now but there's a good chance it will be soon, or
  • the topic is at least barely notable but neither a stub nor the current article is better than no article at all AND cleaning up the existing article is not a "quick fix" (e.g. an article that is borderline-Wikipedia:Blow it up and start over).

  Any such move should be a one-time thing and it should be revert-able, similar to a WP:Proposed deletion nomination.

  For non-new-to-article-space pages that fit one of these two criteria, the better solution would be to either spend a few days fixing it or send it to WP:AFD with a recommended outcome of "move to Draft so interested editors can take the time to fix it without feeling rushed, with an WP:AFC or WP:DRV-like review required before moving it back." The same thing should be considered for "contested (i.e. reverted) move-to-draft" actions.

davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 01:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• The close for an AfD nomination marked "move to Draft" is WP:SK#1, "no argument for deletion".  AfD is for decisions that need admin tools.  RfC is available for such a discussion.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:41, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

• Contextual/Depends etc. etc.. We're still somewhat feeling out how to use Draft: space. Writing new inflexible rules is not a good idea at this point. --LukeSurl ^{t c} 13:22, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
• Usually no. I think I'm lining up with the majority here, in rejecting either extreme. The main contributor certainly ought to be able to move the page when it's new (what if you meant to start it in the Draftspace but accidentally created it in the mainspace?). But generally, I think that best practice for normal circumstances is
  1. not to move any non-deletion-worthy page to the draftspace,
  2. to keep redirects if you move a page there (so that previous editors and others can find it), and
  3. to notify the creator.
     If your choice is draft vs PROD, or draft vs AFD, then boldly moving it to draftspace is okay with me. But if you think that deletion will fail, then it probably doesn't belong in the draftspace, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• WP:USERFY is an essay, while WP:Deletion policy provides relevant guidance:

“

Incubation provides several benefits over the previous practice of moving such articles into user space. Primarily, the Draft namespace makes these proto-articles easier to find and edit.

”

Unscintillating (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• I just want to make it clear the "relevant guidance" at WP:Deletion policy regarding Incubation that User:Unscintillating quotes was added by that editor, without discussion, and flatly contradicts the original WP:Incubator page it was supposedly merged from. The deletion policy talk page has been notified of this RFC. - hahnchen 11:26, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

• Do you wish to amend your statement?  Unscintillating (talk) 01:57, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

• Given the interest in making moves to draftspace an administrative tool, that might be a topic for a new RfC.  I suspect that such an RfC would result in an objection to WP:CREEP, as I see no reason to require admins in this decision.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• An issue that might not be obvious to readers, is that a point made by Chris Troutman regarding the problem of duplicate articles in draftspace and mainspace, was indirectly supported by WhatamIdoing in saying to keep the cross-space redirect.  My experience has been that this is a problem (needs attention).  Unscintillating (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
• No. In general no. There are times it might make sense (moving an article where you are the only significant author and the article is problematic in mainspace for example), but in general this shouldn't be a backdoor deletion. When done in good faith (with the intent of actually improving the article not just moving something you don't like) with a new and poor article, it could also be a reasonable step. But you damn well better be working on it. Doing so to articles you don't have any intent of improving should be blockable as disruptive--draft space moves aren't meant to be a backdoor way to delete something when you couldn't delete it through the front door (CSD/Prod/AfD). Hobit (talk) 04:39, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

• Where in that statement is your support for our WP:5P fundamental principles and our WP:Deletion policy?  Also, let's talk about a real problem, articles without a single source.  Do you oppose moving articles without sources to draftspace?  Unscintillating (talk) 00:18, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

• You are free to !vote and close AFDs as "delete and draftify" as an alternative to deletion. Here's an example - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tabletop Simulator. WP:5P allows for editors to create articles in the mainspace, removing those from mainspace without process is a lack of respect that contravenes WP:5P4. Editors have never been allowed to soft delete articles, as was explicitly stated in the article incubator process that drafts replace. You're free to WP:IAR all you want, but right now, we don't even have a rule to ignore, because right now "anything goes". - hahnchen 09:06, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Hahnchen: Right now, the alternative that you just presented cannot happen adequately in WP:AFD's current state. Basically, anyone except the nominator can vote in an AFD discussion with whatever opinion they have, but the nominator has to vote for deletion. If the nominator presents any other option than deletion, the discussion gets closed per "wrong forum". If you want the resolution that you are suggesting, AFD needs to be renamed "Articles for discussion"; otherwise, nominations to move an article to the draft namespace will be closed on sight. Steel1943 (talk) 20:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • @Steel1943: Nominating to "delete and userfy" is still a delete. - hahnchen 22:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Hahnchen: No, it's not; it's one or the other. Please refer to WP:AFD's opening section: nowhere in there does it state that a nominator can nominate or suggest nominating an article for anything other than deletion. "Delete and userfy" is not deletion: "Delete and userfy" is moving an article out of the article namespace, then deleting the leftover redirect per WP:CSD#R2 ... which retains the contents of the article, although it is now in a different namespace. In WP:AFD's current state, a nomination of "Move to draft namespace" or "userfy (in any form)" being stated by the nominator in the opening nomination gets closed to "wrong forum". Steel1943 (talk) 00:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, using caution and sense. You're basically talking about the same sort of rationale which would be used in userfication, which we have always done, and yet generally done rarely. KillerChihuahua 21:33, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
• No and this is somewhat self-serving but only admins when evaluating CSD criteria or when an AFD is up should be able to consider that option. I think it's no different than deletion of the article itself (or userification). I don't recall a single proposal that would support users unilaterally userifying various articles based on a lack of quality so I don't see why we should change that. Perhaps it's time to rewrite CSD to add moving to draftspace as an option. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
• Absolutely yes — because if someone disagrees, they move it back, subject to the usual requested moves and/or page protection should someone edit war over it. There's no reason to consider moving something out of article space to be considered "deletion," because it's not. It can be reverted without being an admin. It's a move. --slakr^\ talk / 03:06, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
  • See the #examples above of bold draft-space moves. The problem with the draft space is that no one sees it, so no one fixes it. - hahnchen 14:33, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
• Yes per User:Starblind and others. As one of the original proposers of Draftspace, the Draftspace was created for purely technical reasons but after merger with Article Incubator, has now also become a place for drafts to be worked on, if their quality is not upto articlespace level. Restricting articles from being moved to draftspace, then, is certainly not the move that will be really helpful in this regard.

Of course, the caveat of BRD, which most Yes votes agree on, still applies here. We should not be making Draftification as a substitute for controversial deletions, but I believe BRD covers those cases very well. But at the same time, Draftification is mighty useful for quite a lot of articles that got through AFC (or bypassed it) and might need additional work before it can be added back to namespace.

Soni (talk) 20:07, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

• No per Od Mishehu - An article that would be a "Keep" at AfD should be in the mainspace, full stop. To do anything else with it would be an end run around AfD, one of the best-established and most authoritative processes we have. If you think it should be draftified, take it to AfD and ask for draftification if the verdict is something other than "Keep". If the verdict is "Keep", it belongs in mainspace. It is, of course, acceptable to clone the article to userspace or draftspace to aid in major restructuring that will be copied back to mainspace later. A2soup (talk) 02:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

• A2soup, the issue is what can be done with articles that would *not* be a "Keep" at AfD. I don't think anyone is suggesting that we move to Draft the valid articles that should be kept at main space, which was your concern; yet many of us don't think that archiving invalid articles for reuse should require a full formal deletion process. That heavy process only exist because deleted pages are made out of reach to most editors, which is not a problem with Draft, for which WP:BRD should be enough. Diego (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
  • How do you know it's not a keep at AFD? If it's a CSD candidate, sure, draftify it. This RFC doesn't address CSD candidates. If you're just assuming the outcome of a process you haven't initiated, don't. - hahnchen 14:33, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
    • If someone makes a PROD an no one else objects to it on time, it is an automatic deletion. The benefit in moving to Draft instead is that someone else could still see the content later than a week after the first individual decision. Your objection would have a lot more weight if we didn't already have in place one process that can delete articles without discussion, but we have it; moving to Draft is an improvement on that. Diego (talk) 09:30, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
      • I'm fine with expired PRODs being moved into Draft space, like any other CSD candidate. PROD isn't an individual decision, it's a process, and anyone seeing a PROD tag can remove it, including anonymous editors, you're likely to get more hits in one week in the mainspace then you will 6 months in draftspace. Compare Bjørn Lynne with Draft:Bjørn Lynne. - hahnchen 22:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
        • So maybe what we need is a version of PROD to request that the article is moved to draft if there is no opposition, rather than deleted. This should solve the concerns of those that oppose a direct move from article space to draft without discussion. Diego (talk) 22:54, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• Conditional yes if it is quite clear that the article is not in a state for publishing as an article and a WP:BOLD move of the article to the draft namespace would most likely not be seen as controversial. I say "conditional" in my vote because I would actually change my opinion to "no" if Wikipedia:Articles for deletion were to be renamed "Articles for discussion", allowing alternate resolutions to be presented by the nominator other than deletion. Moving an article to the draft namespace is akin to the former function of the Wikipedia:Article Incubator. Steel1943 (talk) 20:09, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
  • The function of Wikipedia:Article Incubator explicitly excluded articles that had not gone through deletion, with the understanding that "incubation of an article is a soft deletion". Nominating an article for "deletion and userficiation/incubation/draftification" is a valid AFD nomination. - hahnchen 22:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

• @Hahnchen: Can you point me to where in AFD's instructions this is explicitly stated? Steel1943 (talk) 00:40, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, under PROD We just need to explicitly allow a move to draftspace as an alternative to deletion under PROD where the reviewing admin chooses it, or where the nominator specifically requests it. I would honestly even suggest that we deprecate PROD in favor of "PROD to draftspace". Maybe there are some people who find PROD useful still, but so frequently it turns into a week's delay on starting an AfD. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:11, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
• No The Incubator failed, AFC failed and now the Draft space is going to go the same way. It is our editing policy to work on draft topics in mainspace because Wikipedia is a work-in-progress in which 99% of articles have yet to reach good quality. Mainspace is the best place to work on topics because that's where everyone can see them. If a topic is hopeless then it should be deleted rather than become a zombie or other variety of living dead. We have plenty of deletion processes already and these proliferating draft processes are too creepy. Andrew D. (talk) 08:24, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
• No. At least, not unilaterally without discussion. It can be done as a result of an AfD discussion, and is increasingly being done, as an obvious variant on the long-established AfD conclusion that an article should be userified. But an individual editor--except the sole substantial editor of an article--should not be able to do this. DGG ( talk ) 10:38, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Reviewer set thresholds and repeated submissions[edit]

In at least two cases at the top of MfD are cases where well fleshed looking drafts have been repeatedly submitted and rejected. I would like to support AfC reviewers against repeated submissions of unimproved drafts, but cannot where the reviewers expectations are higher than that found at AfD.

I suggest if a draft is repeatedly submitted without addressing reviewer points, that you apply a different template that tells how to move to mainspace, and warns of AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:12, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

sometimes that is indeed the case, (and in fact I just moved one of the articles being discussed there to mainspace, because it will clearly meet the relevant notability ). But usually it's quite otherwise--the article is altogether hopeless, and MfD is the simplest way to handle it, rather than going through the additional bureaucracy of first accepting it and then deleting it. There is general agreement that at least an article must be likely to pass at afd before accepting the afc, but trying to quantitate it is difficult. Some think it's just enough to be >50%, I'd say it has to be >66%, but in practice I see that almost everything I accept has remained in WP. The place for articles to be improved is in mainspace, where everybody can see and work on them. Many afc rejects are improperly demanding, but it does serve a useful process in screening out most of the junk. Most repeated rejections are for good reasons, and the repeated resubmission are by persistent promotional editors.

I don't think we can deal with this by changing formal rules or procedures; we need to change it by educating the people who are declining based on unreasonable expectations. The first step is to get more good and experienced people to review the drafts. But if we do change anything, it should perhaps be a more liberal use of G11 on AfCs. DGG ( talk ) 10:34, 6 March 2016 (UTC)