The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. RL0919 (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vivian Kubrick[edit]

Vivian Kubrick (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Non-notable person. Most of the material here is sensationalism referenced to dubious sources, such as The Daily Beast, about which we say Some editors advise particular caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons. Assertions that she's a member of or supporter of fringe groups such the Church of Scientology, the Proud Boys, and QAnon clearly fit that description. Such statements would be OK in a WP:BLP, but only with better sourcing, and I can't find any.

There's some ostensibly WP:RS used, but they don't really say anything. The Newsweek article says nothing beyond noting that The Daily Beast did an expose with an arms-length statement: "The Daily Beast, which reported ..." Huff Post is a classic passing mention, saying no more than that she appeared in a cameo role in her father's 2001: A Space Odyssey. LA Times and LA Weekly, also passing mentions. The article in The Guardian has a bit more, but it's pretty thin, and all mentions of her in the context of her father.

You could strip out all the poorly sourced material, but I don't think there's enough left to justify an article. What little notability she has is largely from being her father's daughter. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear that this isn't going to be deleted, so I'll save people additional work and withdraw my nomination. I still object to the use of The Daily Beast, but I'll continue that elsewhere. -- RoySmith (talk) 18:13, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Although I argued to keep, I share your concern about the state of the article and the sourcing. I hope I will find time to do some edits soon. I hope others will to. CT55555 (talk) 11:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People and Women. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I do not have an opinion on notability yet, but have some initial research: The Razzies void Shelley Duvall’s ‘The Shining’ nomination after an abusive environment on set comes to light (WaPo/ADN, 2022, "...in the years since the film’s release, the toxic conditions surrounding Duvall’s performance have come to light. Footage from “Making ‘The Shining,’” a short documentary filmed by Kubrick’s then-17-year-old daughter, Vivian, and a 2021 interview with Duvall in the Hollywood Reporter, revealed an abusive environment..."); ‘Making The Shining was hell’: How tormented stars, Kubrick’s temper and box-office disaster led to an immortal horror (Independent, 2020, e.g. "In her BBC documentary Making the Shining, Vivian Kubrick, the director’s daughter, shows...); So you've seen 'Room 237.' Now what? (USAToday, 2013, "1. Watch Vivian Kubrick's The Making of The Shining. Stanley Kubrick's daughter made an excellent, all-access doc..."); A photographic diary of 'Full Metal Jacket' (CNN, 2016, ""Vivian is filming him for what would become an uncompleted documentary about her father and the making of the film." Matthew Modine"); Stanley Kubrick's daughter debunks moon landing conspiracy theory (Independent, 2016), Listen to Stanley Kubrick explain the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey, if you dare (AV Club, 2016, "You can watch the full stream of unedited footage below, which includes interviews with Vivian Kubrick..."). It seems as if there may be more notability than her simply sitting around being her father's daughter, because she seems to have engaged in a variety of creative and other projects that may have sufficient secondary coverage to support WP:BASIC notability. Beccaynr (talk) 15:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Additional sources: 15 Examples Of Male Directors' And Actors' Alleged Abuse Of Women On Set, Because We Need To Stop Celebrating These People (Buzzfeed, 2021, "In Vivian Kubrick's The Making of the Shining,..."); Watch Jack Nicholson Get Into Character for the 'Here's Johnny' Scene in The Shining (Esquire, 2015, "After viewing the clip from Vivian Kubrick's short documentary on the making of her father's horror classic The Shining, we promise you'll be convinced of his talent..."); Dr. Phil Hit Back At Critics Who Say His Show Exploits People With Mental Illnesses (Buzzfeed, 2019, "The episode drew widespread criticism, with Vivian Kubrick, daughter of director Stanley, accusing McGraw of being exploitative and cruel."); Shelley Duvall: The Shining’s saddest legacy (The Telegraph, 2019, "Kubrick’s daughter Vivian later confirmed, in the documentary The Making of The Shining, that her father deliberately mistreated Duvall,..." [...] Vivian Kubrick, Stanley’s daughter, even set up a crowdfunding campaign to raise money for Duvall’s benefit, but little evidence remains as to whether this was successful or what happened next."); Filha de Stanley Kubrick quer ajudar atriz de "The Shining" (Diário de Notícias, 2016, (Google translation "Stanley Kubrick's Daughter Wants to Help 'The Shining' Actress")); L’odyssée complotiste de Vivian Kubrick (Le Monde, 2021, (Google translation "The conspiratorial odyssey of Vivian Kubrick"), preview only). Beccaynr (talk) 15:47, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not seeing that any of those provide WP:SIGCOV. Not to mention that WP:BUZZFEED is questionable as a source. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  It would be the combined depth of the sources per WP:BASIC that could support her notability, in addition to sources that focus entirely on her and/or her work - for example, her film The Making of The Shining seems to have become more 'worthy of notice' and subject to commentary and analysis over time. Beccaynr (talk) 16:41, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Also, thank you - to clarify the sources listed above, the first one marked Buzzfeed is WP:BUZZFEED (e.g. "Editors find the quality of BuzzFeed articles to be highly inconsistent."), but the second one is WP:BUZZFEEDNEWS (e.g. "There is consensus that BuzzFeed News is generally reliable."). I also would not consider post-2013 WP:NEWSWEEK an RS (e.g. "Unlike articles before 2013, post-2013 Newsweek articles are not generally reliable.") Beccaynr (talk) 16:54, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  More sources: Precious footage of the auteur at work: framing, accessing, using, and cultifying Vivian Kubrick's Making the Shining; and We'll Meet Again: Musical Design in the Films of Stanley Kubrick (pp. 42, 44); The Complete Kubrick includes a brief discussion of The Making of the Shining at what appears to be p. 160, as well as mentions of various roles in films in other parts of the book). Beccaynr (talk) 16:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Could I suggest WP:THREE? -- RoySmith (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  While my initial research notes are messy, they are designed to assist participants in the discussion because I have slogged through multiple searches with a focus on sources that may help improve the article and demonstrate WP:BASIC notability, which includes, If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not usually sufficient to establish notability. For this subject, coverage exists over time for several reasons, and I think the combined depth of coverage can be considered significant. I have also continued to find sources at the WP Library, e.g. Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?: Domestic Violence in The Shining (Feminist Studies, discussing The Making of the Shining at pp. 709 - 710, via JSTOR). I share your concerns about WP:BLP issues, but I think this article can be further developed with BLP-compliant secondary coverage, including the coverage in media and scholarly sources that speak to her impact as a filmmaker. She appears to be widely-cited for her documentary, which adds support for WP:CREATIVE#1, in addition to what seems sufficient to support WP:BASIC notability. So I !vote keep and will try to organize the research by incorporating it into the article. Beccaynr (talk) 03:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  As Vivian Kubrick's assistant on 'Making the Shining', Gordon Stainforth, I regard this sentence: '(The Telegraph, 2019, "Kubrick’s daughter Vivian later confirmed, in the documentary The Making of The Shining, that her father deliberately mistreated Duvall,..."' as being fundamentally misleading. Vivian's documentary ('Making the Shining' and not 'The Making of The Shining') does not show this; indeed later in the documentary Shelley Duvall says some very complimentary things about the way Stanley treated her. Gordonsta2 (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Hi Gordonsta2, we could discuss this further on the article Talk page, because in the substantial revisions to the article, I attempted to account for various views on the film by attributing perspectives, avoiding original research, and including a source that discusses the impact of the film on the 1981 Razzies award. I also tried to sort out the title of the film, because sources appear to disagree, and I would be happy to discuss this further. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 14:17, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, United Kingdom, and California. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:31, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Plenty of hits, most are in unreliable sources. She's discussed/reviewed in USA Today: [1]. Maybe with the Buzzfeed News and the book discussion above, we have notability. Oaktree b (talk) 20:01, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep Ample mentions of her in GScholar discussing the short film she made and her relation/study with her father's works. Oaktree b (talk) 20:07, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Due to the following coverage

1. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17400309.2014.990284
2. https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/11/the-shining-stanley-kubrick-great-horror-film-made-to-be-re-watched/
3. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/scientology-looms-as-kubrick-daughter-scraps-shelley-duvall-crowdfunding-campaign-950012/
4. This talks about how she did the score for a notable films https://www.papercitymag.com/arts/matthew-modine-stanley-kubrick-full-metal-jacket-diary-art/

Plus passing mentions here:

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2022/04/02/razzies-revoke-shining-award/
2. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/feature/searching-for-shelley-duvall-the-reclusive-icon-on-fleeing-hollywood-and-the-scars-of-making-the-shining-4130256/

Two of the sources about are about her making the documentary "Making The Shining" which therefore I think gives her a pass at WP:CREATIVE not to mention doing the score for another notable movie that her father directed. There is also a ton of tabloid coverage about her, not flattering, so I'll not say more. CT55555 (talk) 21:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think care should be taken with the first Hollywood Reporter article, because it relies on "according to family members who have spoken with the media", "Kubrick’s widow Christiane told The Guardian in 2009", and "Vivian’s half-sister Katharina Kubrick told the Daily Beast" for some of the most contentious material that so far appears to be poorly-sourced. Beccaynr (talk) 22:39, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment about that source and I agree the article is currently in need of major work, in the context of including questionable content for a WP:BLP article. CT55555 (talk) 22:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. She is somewhere between a WP:ENTERTAINER (due to her last name celebrity status) and a WP:CREATIVE but regardless the independent secondary sources are there for notability. Nweil (talk) 21:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I revised and expanded the article with sources identified here and a few more I found while trying to verify information, and I think the combined depth supporting WP:BASIC is now more clear. Information from The Daily Beast about her social media history could be discussed at the Biographies of living persons noticeboard - according to the article edit history, previous attempts to remove it have been challenged. Beccaynr (talk) 18:07, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep: I know that she is Stanley Kubrick's daughter, but she has done enough over the years to be notable in her own right. The article should be cleaned up rather than deleted outright.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 18:51, 14 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.