The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Siouxsie and the Banshees. Barkeep49 (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Fenton (guitarist)[edit]

Peter Fenton (guitarist) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Guitarist with Siouxsie and the Banshees for a few months in their early days and was soon replaced. He co-wrote 3 of the bands songs, none of which are notable in their own right. Fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:COMPOSER John B123 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. John B123 (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Works with WP:COMPOSER, a songwriter is notable if "1 has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition." which is "Love in a Void (song)". This is the case for Peter Fenton, two of his most famous songs / compositions were included on two commercially successful records: the Siouxsie and the Banshees' debut album (including Fenton's co-composition "Carcass")[1] and on their first compilation album Once Upon a Time: The Singles (including Fenton's co-composition "Love in a Void")[2] - that compilation LP was certified gold [3].

"Love in a Void" (which is included on Once Upon a Time: The Singles) is one of the most famous songs of Siouxsie and the Banshees. He also appears with the band performing a song in Don Letts's film the Punk Rock Movie which was released on VHS and DVD. Carliertwo (talk) 14:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notability isn't inherited. Notability of an album does not confer notability onto the individual tracks of the album. --John B123 (talk) 15:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could you reply to this instead -->per WP:COMPOSER, a songwriter is notable if "1 has credit for ... co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition.". You're acting as if you didn't read it. Carliertwo (talk) 15:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I have read it, and my point is none of Fenton's co-compositions are notable. --John B123 (talk) 15:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The notable song criteria is not included in WP:COMPOSER point 1 which is the most relevant guideline in this case. I would pass beyond the fallacious non neutral presentation at the top of this page. Carliertwo (talk) 15:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Of course notability of the song is part of WP:COMPOSER: either lyrics or music for a notable composition. How else can a composition be determined to be notable or not? --John B123 (talk) 17:07, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

John B123, you're missapplying WP:COMPOSER, it is said songwriters, may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria and then you read just point 1. Plus, you should read "Love in a Void (song)" as it is a notable composition. Carliertwo (talk) 22:44, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not misapplying anything, I simply responded to your above request: Could you reply to this instead -->per WP:COMPOSER, a songwriter is notable if "1 has credit for ... co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition.". Obviously I hadn't read Love in a Void (song) at the time of my last comment as you hadn't created it then. Having read it now, I would suggest it's another candidate for an AfD. May I ask why you created a new article rather than making the redirect Love in a Void into an article? --John B123 (talk) 08:14, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't still addressed anything to the question if you considered Love in a Void as a notable composition, and if you still don't, on which ground ?. Carliertwo (talk) 10:31, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would have thought "I would suggest it's another candidate for an AfD" was pretty self-explanatory. However if you want me to be more specific: The song has appeared on two albums, one of which was a compilation; on the b-side of Mittageisen in Germany and as a double a-side in the UK but only "Mittageisen" charted on the UK Singles Chart, where it peaked at number 47. None of this, nor anything else in the article, shows enough notability to pass WP:NSONG. --John B123 (talk) 11:59, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For information, the UK charts never mentioned in their list that a single is a double A side seven inch single. It would be too much details for their chart. What matters is what the artist intended to do, releasing a double A side record and giving the same importance to the two songs. The "Love In a Void (song)" has been successfully reviewed by Spiderone, sorry for you. 12:09, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Then why endorse the statement "but only "Mittageisen" charted on the UK Singles Chart, where it peaked at number 47" in the article Mittageisen by adding a reference? [4] --John B123 (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Because as I said, the UK Singles chart never listed a double A side single mentioning the titles of the 2 songs, they only mentioned the first song. But the next sentence in the Mittageisen article says it all, "Nevertheless, "Love in a Void"—but not "Mittageisen"—was included on the band's 1981 singles compilation Once Upon a Time: The Singles, which compiled all their A-sides up to that time" which was correct, it meant that the band considered Love in a Void as a A-side track when doing the track listing of this ten track compilation of singles. Carliertwo (talk) 12:39, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Restore redirect to Siouxsie and the Banshees, the relevant guidelines here are GNG and MUSICBIO. COMPOSER is intended for individuals who are primarily songwriters or composers, not members of bands who happen to have songwriting credits. And, as John B123 points out above, even if we were to apply COMPOSER, Fenton falls short. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 17:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You're distorting the essence of the text of the section "Criteria for composers". Nowhere it is said that the composer has to work on their own.

Point 1 of WP:COMPOSER, clearly includes the word "co-writing". and then Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition. Fenton's co-composition "Love in a Void (song)" was covered by Darkthrone and rap singer Akala, plus it featured in the movie soundtrack of the 2016 film 20th Century Women . I won't let two people who can't be impartial in this discussion as both pressed the deletion button, one by doing a bold edit without even opening a discussion first and the second by deleting while filing a section at redirect, to decide on their own. This will need a large wp:consensus in the end. Carliertwo (talk) 17:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rosguill, don't you think that with Love in a Void (song), it is time now that one of you two withdraws the tag at Peter Fenton (guitarist), do I need to invite more people to join to this discussion ? Carliertwo (talk) 22:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're misapplying COMPOSER, and I don't really feel like arguing with you more. The discussion is published to a daily AfD list which generally is sufficient to get additional participation. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 23:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This musician co-composed a song which is notable, so there isn't any justification to delete a biography. Carliertwo (talk) 23:04, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - The above two threads now appear disjointed and in some ways random as Carliertwo has extensively modified their earlier posts. For the original flow see [5] for the "Keep" thread and [6] for the "Restore redirect" thread. I would also object strongly to this comment [7] (subsequently reworded).--John B123 (talk) 08:16, 29 December 2020 (UTC) Edit to add, I also object to Carliertwo deleting part of my comments here. [8]--John B123 (talk) 11:42, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is inaccurate, an user is invited to not correct their edit once an answer has been added by someone else after. Pointing a archived diff that had been correct whereas no one has read it yet, just shows how fragile your case is. Carliertwo (talk) 11:54, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Which is inaccurate? You have changed your comments multiple times after others have responded to them? You made an uncivil post or that you deleted part of another users comment? --John B123 (talk) 12:08, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is very low from your part to mention this. Again, the answer had been corrected before anyone reads it and posts an answer. Digging stuff like you do, shows how much lame your present file is. Carliertwo (talk) 12:15, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Second comment. I have no doubt that a songwriter of a famous band who co-composed a notable song, which was covered by many artists and also included in the soundtrack of a recent big Hollywood production, will have his biography on wikipedia in the end. Without mentioning that this musician also appeared with his band in a key movie of the late seventies by a film maker. Carliertwo (talk) 11:52, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Siouxsie and the Banshees. In noting both the songwriting co-credits and the listed sources, I'm simply not seeing any level of notability outside of this subject's relation to the band. ShelbyMarion (talk) 19:16, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Merge to either Siouxsie and the Banshees or List of Siouxsie and the Banshees members. He doesn't seem to have done anything of note outside of Siouxsie and the Banshees, but there is some information in this article that is not currently included in the band's articles that would be worth merging. 86.23.109.101 (talk) 14:16, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to the band. John McGeogh he isn't. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:01, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
• Redirect to Siouxsie and the Banshees or List of Siouxsie and the Banshees members (whichever is more appropriate per policy). Kudos to John B123 and Rosguill above for handling the incessant bludgeoning of this process by Carliertwo, who has been decisively defeated on the meaning of WP:NCOMPOSER. That guideline applies to pro songwriters with compositions adopted by widespread performers and stage productions, not someone who co-wrote a few songs while a member of a band. For Mr. Fenton the relevant guideline is WP:NMUSICBIO, which he fails as someone with no notability outside of the band. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 01:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.