The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was draftify‎. Consensus below not to retain the article and various ATD's were suggested to provide opportunity to work content into various other articles, I think this may be the best option. Daniel (talk) 11:20, 3 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman Muslim genocide during the Balkan Wars[edit]

Ottoman Muslim genocide during the Balkan Wars (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

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Content WP:FORK of Persecution of Muslims during Ottoman contraction. Purpose of creating it is to add "genocide" to the title without going through a formal move request, even though the literature does not describe these events as genocide. Khirurg (talk) 18:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Crime, History, Military, Christianity, Islam, Bulgaria, Greece, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 18:51, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Draftify This article is not a POV or content fork. Most of this content is completely original and is not covered in the page you mentioned. The page you're referring to is about the persecution of Muslims from the 19th and early 20th century, which briefly mentions the Balkan Wars. If you believe "genocide" isn't the right term to use, you can request the article to be renamed on the talk page. PS: This article probably needs more time in the draftspace because of issues pointed out by other editors. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:11, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Also, on the Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction article, there is a tag stating that the article lacks focus on a specific event. So, the creation of this page (and others that fall under the same umbrella as the broader article) is warranted. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  But couldn’t you just expand that article? GOODraspberries (talk) 13:25, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I feel like it would make it less clunky and pore precise and detailed to have a separate / main article covering it SamuelLion1877 (talk) 14:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The thing is that the article already lacks focus, so adding more information about each individual event would make the article worse and too long to read or navigate properly. Yung Doohickey (talk) 20:53, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Hmmm okay makes sense GOODraspberries (talk) 16:29, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. I see several references of dubious reliability. Some suffer from being written during or immediately after the conflict. The page's creator argues above that they were spurred to create it by a note on Persecution of Muslims during Ottoman contraction which says the article lacks focus on a specific event. However, this new article is certainly not a solution—heck, it addresses the persecution of Jews in one of the few completed sections. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:39, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The reason Jews are mentioned because the article was originally created with the name "Genocide of Ottoman civilians in the Balkan Wars," but was changed in good faith by another editor. If sources are dubious/unreliable, it would be more productive to resolve issues like this on the talk page instead of deleting an entire article about human rights violations. Yung Doohickey (talk) 03:41, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Exactly, or to simply delete pieces inside the article that are referenced with "dubious" references, not delete the entire article. If you spill milk on your kitchen floor do you burn down your entire house? SamuelLion1877 (talk) 03:46, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  That's certainly an interesting thought experiment. Anyhow, this is not milk, but a policy violation. See nom for rationale. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:54, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Alright, well as I said, this seems like a fairly minor issue than be solved by simply renaming the article and posting in the article's talk page, not deleting the entire article. SamuelLion1877 (talk) 03:57, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "My idea, which I posted in the talk page of the article when this was first posted, was to rename the article to "Massacres of Ottoman Muslims during the Balkan Wars" and delete the section about Jews, since as Pbritti noted, that contradicts the title itself. Or rename it to "Massacres of Ottoman civilians during the Balkan Wars" and keep the Jewish section" dito SamuelLion1877 (talk) 03:58, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I do ultimately think we should revert back to the original naming convention of "Ottoman civilians" regardless of if it's called genocide or not because a relatively sizeable part of these events were against (outside of Islam) Jews and especially Albanian Catholics, who were targeted, similarly to the Muslims, on the basis of religion and ethnicity. Yung Doohickey (talk) 04:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Agreed, however, these deaths are counted separately by the sources, there is already a very complete and polished article about the massacres of Albanians that took place during the Balkan Wars Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars, the up to 120,000 or more Albanian deaths are counted separately from the 632,000-1.5 million Turkish / Pomak deaths. See my latest revision of the page, thanks SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:39, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I also think the article has a better chance of staying up with my revision, if anybody disagrees and has other ideas, feel free to let me know, SamuelLion1877 (talk) 05:42, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I fail to see how this is a content fork, as Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction only briefly mentions the events, as it is not the main focus of that article. This article also includes (and should include), as I mentioned before, killings of Catholics and Jews, making it include information outside of the scope of the article of persecution of Muslims, albeit, marginally. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:26, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep I understand if the terminology "geocide" may be controversial to some, however, this can be addressed by compromising. Deletion is extreme and unnecessary. Plenty of sources are given, and almost all of them that I see are reliable per Wikipedia guidelines. It seems that some are claiming they are unreliable simply because they personally disagree with them, which is ridiculous. My idea, which I posted in the talk page of the article when this was first posted, was to rename the article to "Massacres of Ottoman Muslims during the Balkan Wars" and delete the section about Jews, since as Pbritti noted, that contradicts the title itself. Or rename it to "Massacres of Ottoman civilians during the Balkan Wars" and keep the Jewish section — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamuelLion1877 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete as a content fork. Srnec (talk) 14:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • On second thought, draftify. There is too much overlap for mainspace, but we should figure out how we want to cover this material before outright deletion. Srnec (talk) 15:12, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

    This is actually a very good compromise. I will admit, I rushed this article out when it was unpolished and mostly contained content from Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction and Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars (which doesn't really have this issue anymore thanks to @SamuelLion1877), because I had planned to expand upon it over time. I should've either created it as a draft or perfected it before creating it to avoid this issue. Yung Doohickey (talk) 20:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge/redirect -- The only substantive section is "Atrocities against Turks and Pomaks". The break up of the Ottoman Empire was in the nature of a civil war, in which villages were burnt and their population expelled. That section might be merged to Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction or become a separate "main" article (actually sub-article) to it. I expect that some people were killed, but not on the systematic scale to justify the use of "genocide", unlike wat the Ottoman Turks did to their Armenian and some other Christian subjects. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The Balkan Wars, specifically, were not in a nature of a civil war. I would argue it can fit the definition of genocide since most of the pre-war Muslim population was removed from the former Ottoman territories, this is unlikely to happen if the atrocities weren't systematic (like it is claimed in both contemporary and modern reports). This article ultimately should be its own thing considering the sheer scale of the events happening in the span of one year. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete this article is a duplicate of Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars and Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction. Some of the information here can be valuable, and it can be easily integrated into those articles.

Finally the title controversially uses the term genocide which would imply an intentional and systematic persecution of these peoples aimed at their destruction. I don't think that happened. I don't like the word genocide being thrown around lightly. Even if it is used by some scholars to describe these events it is defitinvely not the mainstream view. For this reason I would also support deletion to avoid having a redirect like this. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 18:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article simply summarizes the Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars to avoid duplicated content. Most of the information on this page is not in the Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction, since this article was meant to go into far more detail on these specific events, while including other victims other than Muslims, at least initially. "Genocide" has been removed from the title. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:05, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this article has only existed for less than a week, give it more time to expand. Yung Doohickey (talk) 19:15, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The article does offer some valuable content. However, its extensive focus on atrocities against Jews, Albanians, and Bosniaks seems rather repetitive and raises questions about its necessity overall. Integrating the content into related articles would seem like a good option. --Azor (talk). 21:11, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Can you elaborate as to how including Jews, Bosniaks, and Albanians is repetitive. Atrocities against Jews during the Balkan Wars are not mentioned prominently anywhere on this site, as far as I know. Yung Doohickey (talk) 21:29, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Renamed article: it seems the word genocide it too controversial, thus I have renamed the article to “massacres of ottoman Muslims during the Balkan Wars” rather than genocide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamuelLion1877 (talk • contribs) 18:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete this article is a WP:FORK of the Persecution of Muslims during Ottoman contraction. Jingiby (talk) 04:44, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete: article is a POV CFORK dup of Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars and Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction.  // Timothy :: talk  04:56, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd argue, as I did before, that this article is not a content fork because Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction doesn't go into detail about the massacres in the Balkan Wars, but the persecution of Muslims in and around the Ottoman Empire from the 19th century to the early 20th century. This article was created to go into a greater depth in a manner that would be inappropriate for the aforementioned article (since the Balkan Wars is not its main focus). Thanks, Yung Doohickey (talk) 20:26, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete: As POV fork of various articles: Persecution of Muslims during the Ottoman contraction etc.Alexikoua (talk) 21:18, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.