Herbxue
[edit]Herbxue is topic-banned from all fringe science and pseudo-science topics, broadly construed, for a period of six months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 01:46, 15 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Herbxue[edit]
Herbxue is a single purpose tendentious account who edits solely to promote Traditional Chinese Medicine, a system they practice, and is frequently frustrated with many different editors and with the collegiality requirements of editing here. This is a long-existing problem that shows no signs of resolving; a talkpage requirement would not be effective at curbing this behavior, though it would at least stop the revert-warring. Nearly every day that Herbxue is active provides a new example. There appears not to have been a formally logged notification of the sanctions, but Hipocrite (talk · contribs) gave notice here and Herbxue is well aware of the toxic editing environment on alternative medicine topics. Please note that while I am not involved in this particular dispute, I hold myself WP:INVOLVED on all pseudoscience topics. - 2/0 (cont.) 19:24, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Herbxue[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Herbxue[edit]First of all, there is no excuse for the swearing and some of the rude comments and I take full responsibility for those and have apologized or agreed to edit myself on most occasions. However, I believe my edit history has been largely mischaracterized above. I will respond in greater detail later. For an example, look at the way my accuser words the "meth" comment above, then read my actual talk page entry. Almost all of my contributions are talk page comments and almost all are civil, in good faith, and are sincere attempts to inform the discussion on sources and context. The very few article mainspace edit conflicts I have engaged in have been about serious content issues, and my reading on the sources in question has been validated by impartial editors and has lead to article improvements (or at least avoiding unethical misuse of sources) on multiple occasions. When a compromise is offered, I always take it and settle. I will write more detailed responses later, but I urge anyone passing judgements to view my posts in the full context of the talk page discussions and sources they were prompted by. Also, read my talk page to see how my initial good faith attempts to satisfy questions or concerns often get ignored or misunderstood.Herbxue (talk) 00:38, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
About the discretionary sanctions, I had not paid much attention to that notice in May as it was regarding the editing of "pseudoscience". Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine are not mentioned (chiropractic and homeopathy are). Also, I am not listed in the log (others who edit acupuncture are). My point is, it was not clear to me that I was subject to that sanction as I am not active at "pseudoscience". Seems to me a clearer warning would be in order before something so heavy as a topic ban, especially considering my issue is mainly a civility one and not edit warring. At this link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience it says: 14) Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all articles relating to pseudoscience and fringe science, broadly interpreted. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning. I am not sure an actual warning was made, just a general notification that said: "This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date." Thanks for considering.Herbxue (talk) 16:46, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Cardamon[edit]@Sandstein: About your question to 2/0, user:Second Quantization is an editor. 2/0 wasn't accusing Herbxue of dismissing the theory of Second quantization. ;) Cardamon (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Second Quantization[edit]2/0 was referring to this diff in his list: [1], (previously IRWolfie-) Second Quantization (talk) 13:11, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by EdJohnston[edit]@Herbxue: In answer to this comment: The discretionary sanctions notification given to you on May 7 was in proper form. If you continue to edit in the topic areas covered by WP:ARBPS it is assumed that you will read all the links given to you in the notice. Failure to read the links is not an excuse. Both Acupuncture and Traditional Chinese medicine are included in Category:Pseudoscience. In fact, Acupuncture and Alternative medicine are included among the example topics at the bottom of our Pseudoscience article. Ever since Arbcom's motion of May 3, discretionary sanctions alerts are not logged in the related Arbcom case. They are flagged by the edit filter, which shows that a message was left for you with the tag 'Discretionary sanctions alert' on May 7. EdJohnston (talk) 17:11, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Result concerning Herbxue[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Sue Rangell
[edit]Sue Rangell warned; no other action taken. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 15:38, 16 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Sue Rangell[edit]
She took me to ANI for "vandalism" once and it almost boomeranged on her.[5]) This is related to old "sanction" above (removal of rollback rights) because she appears to see at least some of my work as "vandalism," which no one has ever agreed with.
Notified here: [6] Discussion concerning Sue Rangell[edit]@Lightbreather: " Statement by Sue Rangell[edit]Great, pulled into yet another waste of time by Lightbreather. This is exactly why I do not edit where she edits, and in my very humble opinion, exactly why she was topic banned. I really don't have anything to say here. If somebody has a serious question, I'm happy to answer, otherwise I think this request is pretty much self-defeating. Be well, everyone. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:52, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Collect[edit]Perhaps one of the topic-banned pro-gun editors is harassing me. Perhaps someone who's not been involved in these disputes. But I want to ask, what personal information does an editor with account creator rights have access to? I will be happy to provide diffs in addition to the ones I gave above, and I'll spend the rest of the day getting a few to support the comments that I just made. Thanks, as always, for your time. Looks more like a fishing expedition than anything else. LB has a quite significant proportion of her total edits on the Gun articles, AFAICT well over 40% of total edits, with another 10% in user space mainly on the same topic, not even counting project space edits on the same topic. SR has about 5% of her edits on that topic.
@LB -- I did not refer to numbers but to percentages. If you made proportionately the same number of "gnome edits" on many other topics, I suggest you would not be at over 50% on one topic. In my honest opinion, a person who devotes more than half of all his edits to a single topic - even if they are "gnome edits" which is problematic looking at them, is likely to be excessively interested in that single main topic. As for a "degree in journalism" - that and $4 will buy you a latte at Starbucks. Maybe. Collect (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Lightbreather[edit]If it is OK, I will place my replies to individuals here. (The way I did replies in the Scal ARE was confusing.) @Mlpearc: Thanks for the info about account creation rights. Lightbreather (talk) 20:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC) @Sue Rangell: Listen, could you please not talk to and about me like that. If we worked in the same office and I was standing in the room with you, would you talk to or about me like that? Lightbreather (talk) 22:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC) @EdJohnston: Of course, you and any other admins who will decide this request are the ones that I most wish to understand me. My frustration right now reminds me of that I felt when I was a new editor to gun-control and in a "discussion" with about 10-12 experienced editors using jargon I'd never heard and referring to processes I knew nothing about. I learned pretty fast, but I guess I'm not doing as well with this enforcement request process. I almost feel like ones needs to be or know a lawyer to edit here. I've read the instructions up-top repeatedly, not to mention the ones you're given when you actually hit "Click here" and start working on the form. I thought I was pointing to the correct "sanctions" above, based on the Principles highlighted in the ArbCom's Final decision, but I guess I didn't. Although the diffs themselves won't change, I'll try to figure out what exact "sanctions" language I should be citing. Also, I would be happy to lop off about 80% of my comments above, if someone would please enforce the Decorum guidance and remove the insults and character assassination. I'll say what I've said many times: I'll be happy to respond to evidence that is brought against me, but it's hard to respond to "Great, another waste of my time, "Looks like a fishing expedition," and "LB was showing CRUSH behavior." Lightbreather (talk) 01:24, 15 July 2014 (UTC) @Scalhotrod: First, I absolutely disagree that the question I asked at the diff you gave is accusatory or sexist, unless maybe if you take it out of the context in which it was presented. Considering the blackeye WP has received for its 85% male make-up, it is a question that admins and higher-level WP management should be asking themselves. As for your saying that Sue and I "share the same outlook," and Sue saying that she and I are on the same side (or something to that effect), her edit history gives clear evidence to the contrary. However, that's not the problem. The problems are the aggressive reverts and the personal revtalk and talk-page comments:
Request to Admins[edit]I've mentioned it here and on this article's talk page, but would someone please remove the comments of Collect and Capitalismojo from this discussion? They're only "evidence" that these editors have a poor opinion of me, and they're examples of what I have been experiencing since I was a newbie on WP last August. In fact, Sue's comments here are ad hominem, too, though I think they should stand as evidence of the kind of comments she makes to me over and over and over again regardless of the forum, and without evidence. (Meanwhile, I bite my tongue and bend over backward to keep my responses civil and to provide ample evidence, and Sue has found a way to give that an offensive label - based on an essay; she calls it "crush" behavior.) Once an editor is labeled as something - SPA, vandal, "crusher," "pusher," whatever (and Sue has called me all of these things, repeatedly, on as many pages as she could) - regardless of whether any evidence ever accompanies the allegations (it didn't) or whether anyone was ever sanctioned for any misconduct (until recently, I wasn't), it seems to follow her/him around regardless of how many times you ask others to either 1. Provide evidence, 2. Stop using the label, or 3. Take it to the proper forum. It is not WP:5P to call other editors names and make allegations of poor conduct over and over again without evidence. Even if my efforts to get others to stop doing this in edit summaries and on other talk pages has failed, surely here, where DS Decorum says, "Uninvolved administrators are asked to ensure that enforcement cases are not disrupted; and may remove statements, or restrict or block editors, as necessary to address inappropriate conduct" you could, please, honor this request. I have mentioned it elsewhere, but I believe one reason many women avoid or leave WP is because these kinds of attacks are, from my experience and observation, routine. Lightbreather (talk) 16:46, 15 July 2014 (UTC) Reply to Admins[edit]This is in reply to EdJohnston's request. I will focus on "Diffs of edits" number 4. One of the things that came up last fall while there were a lot of disputes on the Federal Assault Weapons Ban page is that the article had no section explaining the background of the ban. Why was the ban proposed and passed? I developed numerous versions of a background section, which most of the editors weren't opposed to in principal. I sought a lot of input from other editors in developing the section. On March 14, I added the Background section [34] and Gaijin42, a pro-gun editor, tweaked it to his liking.[35] Then Sue made a series of edits, including removing one whole paragraph [36] that was key to the ban's background per numerous high-quality sources. Gaijin42 helped me restore and keep the content [37][38] The content stayed there until July 12, right after my topic ban was proposed, when she deleted the whole section [39] (and another one I'd added - without opposition by or conflict from other editors - about Legal challenges[40]) with the edit summary "Various fixes and restorations". If that isn't evidence of vindictive editing - hidden behind a misleading edit summary - what is it? If she's willing, I think my old mentor, StarryGrandma, could add some evidence of Sue Rangell's not WP:5P behavior, though considering some of the things Sue has said to SG, I wouldn't blame her for declining. Lightbreather (talk) 18:11, 15 July 2014 (UTC) @EdJohnston et al, considering the months of anguish Sue has caused me, and the damage to my reputation without evidence, I'd hoped she would be topic banned along with Scalhotrod and myself, but it is a huge relief to know that at least she is on Admin radar and warned. Thank you. Lightbreather (talk) 14:53, 16 July 2014 (UTC) PS: I don't know if there's a place to give feedback on this process, but I think that more emphasis should be put on one aspect of the "How to file a request" instructions at the top of this page: Conduct on this page says: Most editors under Arbitration Committee sanctions are neither trolls nor vandals and should be treated with the same respect as any other editor. We should still assume good faith. Arbitration Committee decisions are designed to be coercive, not punitive. Messages posted here that egregiously violate Wikipedia's civility or personal attacks policies will be redacted and may be deleted. I think if there were an announcement that Admins were going to start coming down hard on the kinds of behaviors below "Counterargument" on the WP:TALKNO pyramid, there would quickly be a Wiki-wide improvement in civility. ("Egregious" here, I hope, doesn't mean you have to call someone a four-letter word or make your-mama remarks. That's a bar you'd set for a locker room, not a board room.) Lightbreather (talk) 15:13, 16 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Capitalismojo[edit]I understand that it must be painful to be topic banned. One would like to respond to those who are seen to have argued against you. This request seems to me to be an effort to retaliate against someone who criticized the OP during an ARE debate. Sue Rangell stated that she felt that LB was showing WP:CRUSH behavior, and that LB's editing had caused her to avoid all areas (guns) where LB was editing. Though I did not participate in that ARE discussion, I feel the same and also have striven to avoid this editor's area. Apparently uninvolved admins believed that there was something to this as well, if the ban is any indication. I would suggest that the OP take a deep breath, withdraw the complaint, and contemplate a more collegial approach during the term of the topic-ban. Capitalismojo (talk) 16:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Scalhotrod[edit]For what its worth, having just been the subject of a previous process like this and also accused by Lightbreather, Sue Rangell and I have edited many of the same articles, had discussions on Talk pages, and have been able to find common ground and find consensus on content pretty much every time. As stated previously, SR and LB share the same outlook, but only LB seems to have difficulty in working within the WP Community. I feel this speak volumes about LB's attitude towards Wikipedia. Obviously I do not have the perspective that LB has of the situation, but I have never felt the need to make accusatory (and somewhat sexist) comments about the Editors or Admins as was done here. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 20:39, 15 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Sue Rangell[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Sue Rangell does not require a DS notice for Gun Control because she participated earlier this month in the Scalhotrod AE case. Many people are aware that Lighbreather and Sue Rangell don't like each other. At first glance the behavior of the two editors on talk pages seems comparable. Short of an actual block for personal attacks, it's not obvious what can be done about that. Some of LightBreather's complaints appear random. It is unclear what a recent request for Rollback (now successful) would have to do with Sue Rangell's editing of Gun Control articles. If we were to go through this page and throw out everything that is off topic it might shrink to 20% of its size. I would suggest we take no action on this unless Lightbreather can boil down this report to verifiable examples of sanctionable misconduct on articles. In her list, only #4 through #9 are edits of articles. Perhaps she can explain how these constitute edits which are not allowed under the Gun Control decision. If she herself reverted any of these changes, that could be mentioned. And she could link to any talk page discussions she herself participated in about these changes. EdJohnston (talk) 23:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC) I'm of the same mind as Ed, only seeing some frustration with LB on Sue's part; not seeing (with the evidence presented so far) the type of disruptive behavior in cases that usually lead to topic bans. Unless there's something more, I'd concur with closing this with no action. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:30, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Khabboos
[edit]Appeal declined. NW (Talk) 11:37, 15 July 2014 (UTC) Prohibited from appealing more than every six months. NW (Talk) 02:50, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action. To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Khabboos[edit]It has been three and a half months since I was topic banned (please see the link provided above). I am appealing that my TBan be lifted again now after a month based on the advice given to appeal again in a month when I appealed the last time here. If you admins see my contributions, you can observe that I have first discussed my edits on the Talk Page everytime, before editing the article. I therefore request you admins to lift my Topic Ban.
Statement by Sandstein[edit]The last unsuccessful appeal was a month ago, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive151#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Khabboos. Because this appeal does not address the reason for the ban, and does not explain in any detail what has changed since the last appeal, and also in view of the concerns voiced in the statement below, I am not confident that problems with original research, misuse of sources and non-neutral editing will not reoccur if the ban is lifted. I therefore recommend that the appeal is declined and that the frequency of future appeals is restricted. Sandstein 18:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by TenOfAllTrades[edit]Not sure if I'm 'involved' in the weighty, Wikipedia-specific way or not, but I'll add my remarks in this section to avoid any distracting debate. I have had no interactions with Khabboos on articles related to India, Pakistan, or Afghanistan, and I can confidently say that I have no idea what his past disputes were about, or which 'side' he happened to be on. To my recollection I've never made any significant contributions in the area covered by his current topic ban. Where I have encountered Khabboos is in the area of homeopathy, chiropractic, and other fringe medical therapies. As near as I can tell, within a few days of being topic banned from one contentious area – India et al. – Khabboos jumped in with both feet to another. His very first substantive edits after the close of his last topic-ban discussion were to begin posting long lists of dozens of references onto Talk:Homeopathy: [43], [44], [45], [46] (There are more consecutive diffs; I just got tired of copying at that point). It was obvious that he had not read the references he named, and that they were simply copy-pasted from other websites (which he did without attribution to the original sources). He proposed no specific edits, just made repeated, poorly-argued demands that negative, well-sourced descriptions of homeopathy be removed from the article. Efforts were made to return him to the straight and narrow, but the lists of unread, contextless references were back again a couple of weeks later: [47]. The discussion at Talk:Homeopathy#WP:MEDRS (and elsewhere on that page) pretty clearly illustrates the issue. I officially notified Khabboos that discretionary sanctions applied to homeopathy and related articles on June 4 ([48]), and he received a final warning on July 8: [49]. He has noted that his primary purpose in editing these articles was to build up a track record to support this topic ban appeal: [50]. If this is what he does when he's on his best behavior, I have grave doubts about what would happen if his editing restrictions were relaxed. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:45, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Actually, these edits, posted a few minutes ago while I was writing the above comment, capture an essential problem with Khabboos' attitude:
At this point, I really can't tell whether he's just being disingenuous, or if he truly can't grasp the notion that it's possible for conduct on a talk page to be disruptive. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:53, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)[edit]Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Khabboos[edit]Result of the appeal by Khabboos[edit]
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User:84.106.11.117
[edit]Talk page semi'd for two months as a normal admin action. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning User:84.106.11.117[edit]
IP files a Request for Clarification of arbitration ruling: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AArbitration%2FRequests%2FClarification_and_Amendment&diff=616739574&oldid=616719355 Please note that, because an RFC is in progress as to the pseudo-science status of Cold fusion, this filing was an attempt to game the system by asking the arbitrators to bypass consensus. IP removes a discussion of editing by IP addresses: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617100203&oldid=617090622 Chaheel Riens restores it: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617103815&oldid=617100203 IP collapses the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617109665&oldid=617106497 Administrator Binksternet states: "Please do not hide the discussion": https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617110112&oldid=617109665 IP hides the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617110112&oldid=617109665 Filing party unhides discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617116627&oldid=617116416 IP rebukes filing party on talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARobert_McClenon&diff=617117157&oldid=616790408 IP collapses the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617117185&oldid=617116627 Jim1138 restores the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617117389&oldid=617117185 IP collapses the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617117618&oldid=617117389 Jim1138 restores the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617118082&oldid=617117618 IP collapses the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617118312&oldid=617118082 At this point Acroterion blocks the IP for 48 hours. (IP is at 5RR, and talk pages are not exempt from 3RR.) NeilN restores the discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ACold_fusion&diff=617119788&oldid=617118312
Cold fusion has been semi-protected indefinitely due to disruptive editing by IPs. There was one previous edit war on the talk page, but the IPs had not yet been warned of DS. There have been too many demands for edits, in which the IPs have expected the volunteer editors to respond quickly. (Also, the demands and questions have been supportive of cold fusion, and the registered editors have mostly been skeptical of cold fusion.) Request, at a minimum, a weekly 1RR restriction against this IP in the area of Cold fusion and other fringe areas. Request consideration of extending the 1RR to other IPs in the 84.104.*.* to 84.106.*.* range, since these addresses shift. Request consideration of a topic-ban by this particular IP from Cold fusion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A84.106.11.117&diff=617141655&oldid=617126678
Discussion concerning User:84.106.11.117[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by User:84.106.11.117[edit]Statement by Johnuniq[edit]Talk:Cold fusion has been plagued with people wanting to discuss various side issues such as whether certain factors might be the cause for the failure of reliable sources to confirm the CF phenomenon. One recent revert is 19 June 2014 where my attempt to close an unproductive discussion was challenged. Note that the whole talk page at the time of that diff concerns off-topic stuff, and similar had been going on for some time. It appears that 84.106.11.117 is familiar with the history of the CF talk page and was attempting some WP:POINT scoring by closing sections that are off-topic, but which might be considered reasonable under the unusual circumstances of such hotly promoted pseudoscience. Johnuniq (talk) 05:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning User:84.106.11.117[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Pigsonthewing
[edit]No action taken; no violation. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 23:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Pigsonthewing[edit]
User was asked to self-revert and declined to do so.
Discussion concerning Pigsonthewing[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Pigsonthewing[edit]I have been mindful not to breach this restriction since it was imposed, ten months ago. And in this case, I did not do so. What I did do, was to fix a malformed infobox, added here by a good faith, but naive, new editor (this article represents their only edits), including the code:
That had the dreadful visual appearance shown alongside. My replacement had more usual, correct formatting. The restriction does not disallow me from fixing existing infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC) @Callanecc: Nor is there a restriction on me discussing (on an article talk page or elsewhere) improvements to an existing infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz[edit]Pigsonthewing did not violate the terms of the arbcom ruling. He did not add an infobox to the article in question, but corrected the formatting on a very poorly constructed infobox that had been uncontroversially added to the article nearly a year ago. If one looks at this narrowly, in terms of the coding, one could argue that he removed one infobox and added a different one containing the same content, but that is pedantry. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by RexxS[edit]![]() This accusation is absolute nonsense. @Callanecc: You don't need to make up a definition of an infobox from thin air. We already have a definition of an infobox in the very first line of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Infoboxes:
A panel ... that summarises key features of the page's subject. How on earth can you possibly not recognise this edit as adding a panel ... that summarises key features of the page's subject.? Not only that, but it was "in the top right, next to the lead section". Look at it - reproduced here as it was when added by Erganbjem, who started editing on 8 August 2013 and who had made just 35 edits by the time he added the infobox (i.e the panel that summarises key features of the page's subject) on 22 September 2013. It is abundantly clear that not only was the intention to add a panel in the top right of an article, next to the lead section, ... that summarises key features of the page's subject., but the effect was to achieve that. Nobody is contesting that it was a rather suboptimal implementation, even if it was the best that such a new editor could manage - especially as he never edited any other article, and was trying to use the visual editor to add the infobox. So now we are in the ludicrous position of an editor who stalks Andy's contributions asking for a sanction to prevent him from even improving a very poor infobox. This needs to be thrown out and some examination made of the number of times that Nikkimaria has arrived at an article for the first time just to take issue with Andy's legitimate edits. That needs to stop. --RexxS (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement by Sitush[edit]I'm with RexxS here, and I'm really not a fan of infoboxes. Any attempt to assert that this particular edit breached the ArbCom ruling seems like pedantry. The thing was already there, just poorly constructed and obviously in need of a fix. If Nikkimaria were that concerned, she could have simply reverted Potw and then done the fix in their name. Let's use a bit of common sense. - Sitush (talk) 15:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Gerda[edit]The edit helped a new user and improved the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Boing![edit]Do you know how this makes me feel? Sad. Seeing a productive editor making a change to an article that is so obviously an improvement (and was obviously fixing what was intended as an infobox and doing it properly, and was not adding a new one) being dragged here by a pedantic process-wonk out of battleground spite saddens me a lot. Seeing a couple of
Statement by Montanabw[edit]This is really hair-splitting. Andy's first edit was here. No infobox. The article in question had a manually-created "infobox" made out of an image template that in terms of syntax, was this mess. Andy then took ONLY the existing parameters plus one very logical addition -and put them into a template here. In essence, he took an improperly formatted infobox and made it into a proper one. Criminy, this is beyond ridiculous: it's a witchhunt. Montanabw(talk) 18:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Pigsonthewing[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Nikkimaria
[edit]There are no enforceable remedies in the case to be enforced in this venue. Any further discussion should take place at AN, ANI or through an RFC/U, or an administrator can impose a block in a normal administrative action. This board is not best suited for discussions of that nature, so I'm closing this section, though feel free to use the evidence/comments here in further discussions. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:30, 22 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Nikkimaria[edit]
There were no "mass additions" (Nikkimaria means an infobox). This article had lain dormant for over two years and per WP:Be Bold, editors are not required, nor normally expected, to discuss changes to articles beforehand in these sort of cases. Yet we have a single-minded insistence by Nikkimaria that no changes can be made. --RexxS (talk) 14:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Nikkimaria[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Nikkimaria[edit]13 additions in a short span of time to articles in an area where project guidelines advise against such additions is something that requires at least an attempt at discussion first. 13 re-additions after being reverted absolutely require discussion first. It is indeed unfortunate that there was edit-warring instead, and I continue to invite Montana to discuss her proposed changes. Other than that, I'm leaning towards Ealdgyth's opinion. Rex, your proposal wouldn't make the problem go away. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Ealdgyth[edit]This is getting just insane - all three of these AE requests (plus all the associated sniping by ALL sides all over the place). Personally, I'm of the opinion that all the people involved in the infoboxes case (those that were sanctioned and those that gave evidence or participated in the discussion) should be barred from typing the word "infobox" at all. The whole thrust of the decision in that case was that things needed to calm down, and the battleground behavior needed to stop. Near as I can tell, it's just continued at a lower boil. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Montanabw[edit]I agree with Ealdgyth to the extent that this is insane, BUT my view is that 99% of the problem is that Nikkimaria has made herself the self-appointed cop who stalks the edits of Andy and Gerda hoping to "catch" them. That's just childish. Frankly, both of them should have their restrictions lifted, and this war against content creators on wikipedia needs to stop. As noted in my comments in Gerda's section above, I added 13 infoboxes to abandoned stub articles about some young pianist BLPs, ones that appeared to not have ever been edited by Nikki, only to have Nikki immediately appear and revert them. It is high time that the WP:BOOMERANG takes a look at Nikkimaria's edit-stalking and edit-warring, and I suggest that she take her obsession with Gerda elsewhere. Gerda and Andy abide by their restrictions, and here, Gerda made ONE slipup that may not have happened were it not for Nikki's baiting as regards infoboxes, edit-warring over parameters, altering guidelines and template instructions to align with her own POV, and so on. I am not sure what will get Nikki to back off, but she needs to. Montanabw(talk) 16:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by IP[edit]Just a reminder to the good admins at AE, you can act on AE complaints as normal admin actions. They won't have the same heft as a DS protected action, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Dismissing this and sending it to A3 or ANI when you already think admin action is warrented is just bureaucracy for bureacracy's sake. You still have regular admin hats and are still empowered to use them. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 19:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Epeefleche[edit]
Statement by Gerda[edit]I refused in the arbcom case to supply evidence against editors whom I respect and keep doing that, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC) I enjoy writing articles together, such as The Company of Heaven and Anna Kravtchenko. I also enjoyed this discussion. (A battle? I doubt it.) Did you know that I made suggestions in the arbcom case? (I see that I didn't stick to my own, see above, I got angry at three reverts.) What do think, Nikkimaria, of voluntarily not reverting harmless infoboxes (such as these young pianists) for a month and see what happens? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by BrownHairedGirl[edit]AFAIK, I have interacted with Nikkimaria only twice, both times in the last few weeks. On both occasions Nikkimaria has refused to reasonably discuss the concerns of other editors. This is not the conduct which I expect from any experienced editor, let alone an admin, especially one already admonished for lack of professionalism. My first discussion with Nikkimaria was on 1 July here, where she refused to stop removing material from references. The discussion was degraded by Nikkimaria's repeated attempts to misrepresent what I was asking [52]. The entire thread was eventually deleted by Nikkimaria [53] with the disgraceful edit summary "rm trolling". I subsequently reverted her unexplained removal of info from other articles, and in each case it was repeatedly removed again with no further explanation. I filed an AN3 report on which no action was taken [54] On 19 July, Nikkimaria removed the nationality from infobox on article I had created [55]. (Note that the infobox had been added by another editor, not by me.) Nikkimaria's editsummary neither noted the fact of the removal, nor any clear explanation of the reason, so I reverted[56], and raised the matter on Nikkimaria's talk [57]. In the subsequent discussion, Nikimaria justified her removal on the basis of a section of a guideline which she acknowledges has no consensus, and which she has edit-warred to sustain. Her response to my complaint about her edit summaries was to a) misrepresent my request as a demand for "paragraphs of information", when the suggestions I made were of a few words [58]; b) repeatedly demand [59][60] that I point to examples of other editors use of summaries, even tho I know no others who follow her focus on removal of content. She accused me of "speaking only in the abstract" [61] even tho I had offered [62] concrete examples of how comply with WP:EDITSUMMARY ... and rounded off her repeated refusal to engage with my many suggestions by asking "please in turn try to be more collaborative in your efforts to resolve perceived problems". [63] Other editors report similarly frustrating experiences of trying to resolve problems with Nikkimaria. Both my encounters with her have left me feeling that I was engaged in a futile attempt attempt to reason with a petulant child. I plan to open an RFC/U on Nikkimaria's sustained refusal to work collaboratively or discuss disagreements maturely, and I am unsure whether my evidence above is relevant here. If not, sorry for bringing it here ... but whatever the venue, something needs to be done to curtail Nikkimaria's sustained and repeated lack not just of professionalism, but of simple maturity of conduct. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Boing![edit]I'm afraid this is one of those cases that shows we need a binding Community admin recall process - Nikkimaria has displayed such appallingly bad behaviour that there would be no chance of an RfA success now, and I think a recall (if we had the power to do so) would be inevitable. We see stalking and hounding, tendentious edit-warring, vindictiveness, a continuation of the battleground behaviour that everyone should be trying to stop, and a complete failure to engage in the collegial manner that is required here. That Nikkimaria is an admin, and also an involved one at that, makes this behaviour that much the worse - we expect better-than-usual behaviour from admins who should lead by example, we do not expect the kind of behaviour that would get mere editors hauled up at ANI and blocked or banned. Whatever the admins decide below, I think we need to follow with a community topic ban from anything to do with infoboxes (including policing the topic) at ANI. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Nikkimaria[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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- AN proposal made here — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Gerda Arendt
[edit]Per discussion below, no action taken. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 22:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Gerda Arendt[edit]
Discussion concerning Gerda Arendt[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Gerda Arendt[edit]We are talking about this history. I am sorry, I forgot the part of not restoring, I don't look at my restrictions every day. I will not do it again, as long as I remember. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Yes, several times I claimed "I forgot", because several times I forgot that I had not created an article. We are talking about articles from 2010, for example. Yes, I could have looked up the history, but I remembered my work on them so well that I failed to do it. I asked to apologize that already before. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC) I forgot that I am restricted to not restore an infobox for the first time today. I confess that I got angry at the many reverts on that article (and others, such as Anna Kravtchenko), sorry for that as well. - I can't force you to believe me that I forgot that I didn't "create" Richard Adeney and others, but it is true. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC) @Callanecc: Please distiguish: I forgot that I didn't "create" Richard Adeney (where I had added an infobox). I so far had nothing to do with José Carlos Cocarelli where I restored one, carried away by being angry about three unsubstantiated reverts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC) I looked up history. I added infoboxes to three articles I believed I "created" (in the strict sense of turning red link to blue) but didn't:
All three are DYK articles (I created more than 80& of the content), all three were reverted within a day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Belle[edit]What good will blocking Gerda do? Belle (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC) @Sjakkalle:; I know what purpose the block is intended to serve, but do you think that it will do so? She got angry and let herself get dragged into Nikkimaria's and Montanabw's little spat; now she's getting her knuckles rapped and she's not going to edit war again, so there's no need to exclude her from the encyclopaedia where (as you say) she is normally productive. This block looks to me as if it would be purely punitive and I don't think that is the aim (actually, let's put that in caps; "THE AIM" [portentous music plays]; that's much better). Belle (talk) 16:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Montanabw[edit]This is ridiculous. I added the original infobox for Jose Carlos Cocarelli, which was an abandoned stub about a young pianist. I added a grand total of 13 infoboxes to similar BLP stub and start-class articles that no one but bots and vandal patrollers had touched for a long time, including no edits by Nikki or Gerda. Nikkimaria, who appears to be stalking both my edits and Gerda's as a self-appointed cop, reverted ALL of them within about 24 hours with her usual non-specific edit summaries, adding "rv net negative." In most cases, she also added a subsequent edit of a bit of content. I carefully kept her additions but also restored the infoboxes. These were not opera articles, not composer articles, not composition articles. This is absolutely spot on proof of Nikkimaria's stalking edits of myself and Gerda for the express purpose of edit-warring over infoboxes and I am very disappointed that Nikki has resorted to "GOTCHA!" behavior to go after Gerda. Nikki is long overdue to be sanctioned for her WP:BAITing and stalking. Montanabw(talk) 16:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Olive[edit]Wikipedia is not punitive.. An editor reacted against the battle ground behaviour of an admin who already has been admonished. Stalking is battle ground behaviour. Edit summaries which because of their lack of information (and Nikki has been asked repeatedly to explain her edits more carefully) do in fact mislead, and constitute battle ground behaviour. Did Nikki suggest to Gerda that she had made an error per her arbitration and ask her to revert the mistake or did she run over here to see if she could get a sanction? More battle ground mentality. What is the behaviour we expect in a collaborative community from an admin. Gerda is a prolific editor, (do all of us remember the articles we worked on years ago. I doubt it.) with an reputation for kindness and generosity. She explained her position honestly and apologized. At what point do we look deeper to see why such an editor might be upset. Why are we so quick to shoot first and look around later for behaviour that is hugely positive to this community, that indicates this is an editor who is honest, so we can AGF. (Littleolive oil (talk) 17:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)) Statement by Boing[edit]@Lord Roem: Don't you think you should give more of your fellow admins time to see this and offer their own opinions rather than deciding all by yourself? You know, that old consensus thing? — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Result concerning Gerda Arendt[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. The request has merit. Because Gerda Arendt has previously violated the restriction multiple times and claimed to have forgotten it, as shown in the submitted evidence, I do not consider her statement that she forgot it again to be credible. To give preventative effect to the sanction, I believe that a block is now necessary. In view of her prior unsanctioned infractions, I also believe that the maximum block duration of one month is appropriate. Sandstein 12:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC) This is an unambiguous violation of their restriction. Saying "I forgot," especially at least a second time in a two-month period is both not persuasive and not helpful to their case. However, I disagree with Sandstein that a first block on someone's violation should take into consideration past times it was 'close' or that we didn't block. If we took no action in the past, we took no action in the past. Something like a week or two seems more appropriate. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC) I agree that unfortunately a block is necessary with this blatant violation with the hope that it will prevent further violations. In this case the page history fits on one page and it was during an edit war I don't accept that Gerda forgot that she didn't create the article. I'd rather a block of a maximum of 2 weeks though. While we're here I'd also warn Nikkimaria and Montanabw that their reverts on the article are pretty clearly edit warring and they should avoid continuing to revert users and discuss instead. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC) I agree with the admins above, this one is an unambiguous breach of the restriction. Responding to Belle, the point of enforcing the restriction is to deter edit warring over infoboxes.
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Ezzex
[edit]Ezzex is topic-banned from all pages related to the Arab-Israeli conflict for three months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 06:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Ezzex[edit]
Ezzex recently made an ANI post where previous behavior was an issue And a previous ANI against Ezzex which ended with a firm warning from Go_Phightins! for soapboxing. Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive847#User:Ezzex
User_talk:Ezzex#Discretionary_sanctions_notification
Obvious case of WP:NOTHERE could notmally be cleaned up fairly easily, but 1RR and applied DS puts at risk of edit warring since this is not over vandalism.
Discussion concerning Ezzex[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Gaijin42 ! you have been blocked 3 times in 1 year. Is this some sort of revenge?? --Ezzex (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Ezzex[edit]Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Ezzex[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
This looks to be POV-pushing in article space. I recommend a topic ban. The pattern is consistent with a 12 July ANI thread, Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive847#User:Ezzex, where Ezzex was warned for calling Wikipedia a 'tool of Israel' and for referring to the murder of the three Israeli teenagers as 'just killings on occupied land.' EdJohnston (talk) 02:12, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
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Captain Occam
[edit]There is fairly clearly nothing to do, or that can be done, here. Black Kite (talk) 23:56, 26 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Captain Occam[edit]
linked above
The sanctioned editor appears to be using off-wiki forums regularly and persistently to run a drawer full of POV-pushing socks.
I visited the talk page for Captain Occam to attempt to give him notice, and I see that that what I post on his talk page is covered up by a template announcing that his access to that page is blocked. My 25 July 2014 attempt to notify him is in the talk page history. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 23:48, 25 July 2014 (UTC) Discussion concerning Captain Occam[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Maunus[edit]I donøt understand the request. Captain Occam is not editing, he is offering off-wiki advise about how to edit to people who are otherwise mostly clueless nuisances. I think that can only be good. Those people are going to edit anyway. This way at least they have an introduction to how to go about it. Also at this point I should disclose that I have consulted with Occam about my recent edits to the Race and Intelligence article. This is a necessity because there are no editors currently on wiki with interest and expertise in the hereditarian view which needs to be represented in the article. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Collect[edit]What precisely are you seeking? Your talk page post is not covered up by a template - the page was hatted by Beeblebrox, which appears a reasonable act. You are not being prevented from doing anything there as far as I can tell. More to the point, what actual acts do you wish the committee to exert over off-wiki sites? King Canute is not currently serving on the committee that I am aware of. Collect (talk) 00:06, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Captain Occam[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Khabboos
[edit]Summarily declined as unclear. Please resubmit with a link to the remedy to be enforced and to dated diffs that explain how these edits are problematic. Sandstein 08:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Khabboos[edit]
The topic banned Khabboos is back with a vengeance:
Here is his failed appeal of his existing topic ban: He has also been properly warned about his disruptive behavior in the pseudoscience/fringe area: The person who started the following thread, User:John19322, is very likely a sock of Khabboos (or someone else): TenOfAllTrades correctly questioned him at the end of that thread. Here's what he wrote:
Obviously John19322 is a sock of someone who posted above....He blew his cover! This is the type of amateurish mistake Khabboos and User:Dr.Jhingaadey could make. I will notify Khabboos. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Khabboos should be topic banned in the alternative medicine/pseudoscience/fringe area, "widely construed." He should likely be blocked for sockpuppetry as well. A likely suspect is one of the numerous socks of the indef banned User:Dr.Jhingaadey. They share numerous behaviors, obsessions, POV, and amateurish use of socks. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:30, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Khabboos[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Khabboos[edit]Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Khabboos[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. Summarily declined as unclear. Please resubmit with a link to the remedy to be enforced and to dated diffs that explain how these edits are problematic. Be advised that continued unspecific or unproven accusations of sockpuppetry may result in sanctions against yourself. Sandstein 08:23, 28 July 2014 (UTC) |
John Carter
[edit]John Carter (talk · contribs) is blocked for two weeks. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 05:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning John Carter[edit]
Please take whatever actions are required to make the interaction ban violations stop.
John Carter has been made aware of the request for enforcement here. Discussion concerning John Carter[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by John Carter[edit]
Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning John Carter[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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Uishaki
[edit]Uishaki (talk · contribs) is indefinitely topic-banned from all pages relating to the Arab-Israeli conflict, broadly construed. They may appeal this sanction in six months. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 18:29, 30 July 2014 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Uishaki[edit]
The user is clearly not here to edit in WP:NPOV it seems that his Modus operandi is to deny Israel existence as clearly shown by his edits when he deletes an Israeli cities or exchange Israel to Palestine and he doesn't really hide it as he clearly states in his second user box [73].
Discussion concerning Uishaki[edit]Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Uishaki[edit]I repeat that I do not accept any distortion of the Palestinian history as many Israeli users are doing. How many times have Jewish sources been fabricated and used for your agendas and interests without any questioning. Wikipedia is owned by Israel and its followers. Its up to me if I deny Israel's existence on my user page because there is something called "freedom of speech". The article about Shuja'iyya massacre was absolutely not one sided because I wrote only the stuff I found on different websites. Shrike you are only here to polishing the ugly face of Israel, but I am sure that you will fail.--Uishaki (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by Nishidani[edit]I haven't got time to look closely through that yet, but, some of those edits are poor, yet the first two complaints are nonensical and consist of content disputes. The article on olives speaks of from western Mediterran to Israel, and Uishaki replaced Israel with Palestine. What (s)he should have done is written 'Israel/Palestine'. But using Palestine, the historical term, is not a denial of Israel's existence. Olives are a very sensitive issue here: it is often said Israel has uprooted 800,000 olive trees from Palestinian land since the occupation began (1967). I don't know if that is true, but the numbers are huge, the destruction of non-Israeli olive plantations ongoing, and a considerable amount of the uprooted trees are transported into Israel to be replanted there. To a Palestinian eye, a text that says 'olive cultivation extends to 'Israel' means the exclusion of the fact that olive has been long before the establishment of that state a fundamental product of Palestine, and properly NPOV requires that one write Israel/Palestine, for intense cultivation extends past Israel through to the border with Jordan. Rather than deny Israel's existence, the text ishaki changed denied the fact that olive production extends east of the Mediterranean through to Palestine (West Bank/Gaza), and he was probably reading it to be a denial of the existence of Palestine. So you should remove those two at least.Nishidani (talk) 21:34, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Nishidani (talk) 09:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC) Statement by (username)[edit]Result concerning Uishaki[edit]This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
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