"Every child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French". This might be true from the point of view of French bureaucrats of the time. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a person born to a French father in a foreign country and raised in that country really feels/felt French. Or to put it differently if a person doesn't feel French then even 20 "codes Napoleon" won't make him French.  Dr. Loosmark  13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That person may also be entitled to a dual citizenship, as it may be granted to that person by the state it was born in. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That person being born in Poland of a French father, having also been raised in Poland (and no one here is denying him his deep feeling of Polishness or his Polish nationality), that person, namely Frédéric Chopin, could have chosen another country to live in, England, for instance, but he chose France where he lived the entire second part of his life, eighteen years. He even went as far as using the French version of his baptismal names (which, by the way, he had to do as French nationals could, at the time, be given only French names) getting a French passport (several, in fact) with no one having to twist his wrist to do it, thus recognising the fact that he was French, as it was on the basis of his being born of a Frenchman in Poland thus being French, fact that the obtaining of his first French passport was confirming. That very same person lived in a Paris that he adored, lived among French people who adored him, spent summers in the French country home of a French woman among friends of all nationalities as guests; that French-fashion conscious person was one of the most elegant men in France, and when that person, namely Chopin, was on his deathbed, he was surrounded by close friends, French & Polish, and even from the other side of the English Channel. France gave him one of the most grandiose national funerals ever and the crowd was too big to describe who took him to his tomb at the Père Lachaise cemetery. Frédéric Chopin's love of France & the French is expressed in many of his letters.

--Frania W. (talk) 17:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hardly surprising that Chopin, when forced to remain abroad in the aftermath of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, should choose to do so in France, which was then the center of European and western culture. Many other members of Poland's Great Emigration at the time did the same, including Chopin's friend and Poland's pre-eminent Romantic poet, Adam Mickiewicz, who had no French ancestry.

And if Chopin was honored in life and in death, it was principally as a great artist, and not just by Frenchmen. Nihil novi (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not forced to remain abroad according to this source, [11], The Cambridge companion to Chopin, Cambridge University Press 1995 page 6, "Life in France agreed with him and he quickly put to the back of his mind any thoughts of returning to his homeland (he could easily have done so when the Czar offered the first of many amnesties in 1833.)" Novickas (talk) 00:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, he (and the other members of Poland's Great Emigration) could have returned — had they not cared about expressing themselves freely. Nihil novi (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, nonetheless, the fact that he was French was of much help to him because it allowed him to remain in France as a Frenchman, not as a political refugee.

If a French passport was helpful to him, then he did wisely, making use of it. Nihil novi (talk) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nihil, I wish that you would stop trying to prove to me that Chopin was a Polish-Polish Pole. I know of his attachment to the land of his birth as much as you do, but I also know that he was also French. And he knew it too.

--Frania W. (talk) 00:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It was Chopin's French girlfriend, George Sand, and French biographer Louis Énault who described him as "more Polish than Poland." Nihil novi (talk) 04:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As has been pointed out before, at the time she made that comment Poland was Russian (with German and Austrian bits). Varsovian (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So? Sand wasn't addressing the political geography, but the culture, of Poland. Nihil novi (talk) 20:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, interesting. Do you have a WP:RS which talks about what Sand was addressing with that comment? Or is your analysis WP:OR? Varsovian (talk) 22:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

George Sand would not have been so stupid as to compare the "Polishness" of an individual with that of a people who had supposedly ceased to exist, as you have suggested, merely because their sovereignty had been destroyed. Nor would Louis Énault have done so:

"Chopin, in spite of spending half of his life in Paris, remained characteristically Polish and was a 'lonely soul.' Louis Énault, a biographer, said: 'The Slavs lend themselves gladly but never give themselves; Chopin is more Polish than Poland.'" Marion Bauer, Music Through the Ages: A Narrative for Student and Layman, p. 248. Nihil novi (talk) 01:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments about Énault, I was actually asking about Sand. I conclude that you have no such sources regarding what she was addressing. Varsovian (talk) 15:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could somebody add a courtesy note about this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_France#Chopin.27s_nationality_and_citizenship (also doubles as the France regional noticeboard)? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to suggest that editors post here their versions of the lead. Once we see what is actually disputed, as far as wording in the lead is concerned, it may be easier to reach a consensus - I see that the discussion seems to veer off in directions that are somewhat off-topic, as far as lead is concerned.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: first two paragraphs only as I don't think the third one is in any dispute. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced [ʃɔpɛ̃] in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810^[1] – 17 October 1849), was a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage, who is considered to have been one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and Polish mother, and was considered a child-prodigy pianist. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French female novelist George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

I think it does a pretty good job as it is. It's certainly true that there are people whose Polishness has been exaggerated on Wikipedia and elsewhere by overzealous Poles, but with the lead phrased as it is here, I honestly don't think Chopin is one of those cases.--Kotniski (talk) 19:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Nihil novi (talk) 19:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the second passport it needs to be mentioned that his mother was Polish-French. Chopin was born to French parents (as his passport tells us). Varsovian (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean by that; but the passport is presumably following the French legal definition of "French", which as we keep pointing out, is of very little interest to us. In fact the very fact that legally his mother may have been "French", while no reasonable source identifies her as such, is good evidence in itself that the world is not interested in people's nationality in the sense that you and others are trying to impose here.--Kotniski (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the world has always been interested in C's nationality; do you disagree that Norman Davies is a good enough source for that? [12] "Strong emotions have also been generated in interpretation of the works of F. Chopin (1810-49). Although the French have been slightly less proprietorial towards Chopin than the Germans towards Copernicus, the same debates and disagreements concerning the extent and significance of his 'Polishness' have regularly recurred". Novickas (talk) 18:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What one thinks may depend on which Briton one wishes to believe. Chopin's English biographer Arthur Hedley, quoted in our article's "Nationalism" section, writes in Encyclopaedia Britannica that Chopin "found within himself and in the tragic story of Poland the chief sources of his inspiration. The theme of Poland's glories and sufferings was constantly before him, and he transmuted the primitive rhythms and melodies of his youth into enduring art forms." Nihil novi (talk) 20:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also (if the quote above is all Davies says on the matter) he seems to be talking about interpretation of Chopin's works rather than the man's nationality or "citizenship".--Kotniski (talk) 06:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. Nihil novi (talk) 06:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A great deal of Chopin historiography revolves around his ethnicity directly in relation to his work, so it's hard to separate the two. From Music in Chopin's Warsaw, Halina Goldberg, Oxford University Press, 2008, p.6: "The demand for unambiguous Polishness, as defined by the successive "-isms," played a role in several aspects of Chopin historiography." From Maja Trochimczyk's entry in The age of Chopin: interdisciplinary inquiries, Indiana University Press, 2004, p.291: "In the process of asserting Chopin's Polish identity at the beginning of the twentieth century, an awareness of his double cultural and personal background (my emphasis) was replaced by a belief in his fully Polish origins." [13] On a general note, apart from the Polish-French in the lead issue (which I'm going to withdraw from - clearly a time sink and I would like to think that people read entire articles rather than stop after the first two sentences), I'd like to see the article move towards more modern sources and interpretations, other than the occasional quote from a notable contemporary. I presume I don't need to justify that. Novickas (talk) 14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what is meant by the "second passport" (second paragraph)? But I note that nobody is proposing any changes to the lead. Can we assume that as far as the lead is concerned, the current version is an acceptable compromise? Are there any issues about the body that need to be discussed? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The lead: as it reads right now, although there is an improvement by recognising his "French-Polish parentage", is not 100 per cent what I would like to agree to, because Frédéric Chopin was both Polish and French. The problem I am encountering is finding a source other than Langavant, since what he wrote is not in a book form and cannot, supposedly, be used, although we also have the 1804 Code Napoléon itself, in French & with the English translation found online, which I gave somewhere above in previous section. I also realise that we must reach consensus, which, if I understand, would not set the lead in stone. If someone ever comes with properly sourced material RE Chopin's French nationality then the lead could be rectified.

Britannica Macropædia - Knowledge in Depth, 15th edition, 1997, as well as Britannica Encyclopædia Britannica 2009 edition online have Chopin as Polish-French:

• Frédéric François Chopin Polish-French, born of a French father...

Langavant is not the only author who has demonstrated that Chopin was French at birth, but it is difficult to find all the authors. French pianist Alfred Cortot in his book Aspects de Chopin, chapter: Ce qu'il doit à la France, p. 110 Albin Michel, wrote: "... sa citoyenneté française authentiquée légalement par un passeport...", referring to the 1837 passport. ("His French citizenship legally authenticated by a passport.") Pianist Maria Gondolo della Riva Masera in her book Frédéric Chopin, Aperçus biographiques (ed. Michel de Maule, 2010) calls Chopin Franco-Polish

Finally, at Wikipedia Reliable Sources, I found this: "When discussing legal texts, it is more reliable to quote from the text, appropriately qualified jurists or textbooks than from newspaper reporting."

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Law

So if it is "more reliable to quote from the text", why can't the 1804 Code Napoléon, with the short sentence A child born... is French, be used as a source? It certainly would simplify matters.

--Frania W. (talk) 02:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the Code Napoleon isn't the subject of the article. We are not discussing legal texts in this article - and even if we find some reliable source somewhere that make this link between French law and Chopin's situation, it still wouldn't belong in the lead, but as a detail somewhere in the article. The biographical sources that you quote which describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish etc. are of much more significance - if we can conclude that there are a significant number of them relative to the number that describe him simply as Polish, then we could try reflecting both viewpoints in the lead (I once suggested "...a Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French) composer...") --Kotniski (talk) 06:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It has never been my intention to discuss the Code Napoléon in the lead, or make it "the subject of the article", but to have it recognised beforehand as a proper source to support those who say that Chopin was a French national at birth, together with being Polish, and having such stated in the lead: Polish-French.

As for finding a nearly equal number of sources describing Chopin Polish-French vs only Polish, this is impossible because for over a century the Poles have taken over Chopin to the point that the simple fact of bringing out the possible French nationality of Chopin has been taken by the Poles as an attempt to kidnap a national hero.

Without going back to the whole unending debate, I would like to mention again that several articles on famous people mention a double nationality with no outcry, no request for support by secondary or tertiary sources: Einstein, Rubinstein, Werner von Braun, Cortot, Yves Montand, or Guillaume Apollinaire, born a Pole in Italy, who became French at the age of 36, and given as a "French poet, playwright and art critic" as a matter of fact, with not even the batting of an eye.

What I am saying is that Frédéric Chopin is being subjected to a well-orchestrated treatment applied to no one else in Wikipedia.

--Frania W. (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Frania. I am having trouble figuring out exactly what change you'd like to make. Could you post a proposed new version of a sentence (paragraph) in your own new section and add a justification below? If you could put it side by side with the current version that would be best. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

=Lead as it appears now=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced [ʃɔpɛ̃] in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810^[1] – 17 October 1849), was a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and a Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Second possibility=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced [ʃɔpɛ̃] in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810^[1] – 17 October 1849), was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French parentage. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French-expatriate father and Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Third possibility=:

Frédéric François Chopin, in Polish Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (the surname is pronounced [ʃɔpɛ̃] in French, and usually /ˈʃoʊpæn/ in English; 1 March 1810^[1] – 17 October 1849), was a Polish-French composer and virtuoso pianist. He was one of the great masters of Romantic music. Chopin was born in the Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw to a French father and a Polish mother, and was a child-prodigy pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish November 1830 Uprising, Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish Great Emigration. In Paris, he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, George Sand. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of pulmonary tuberculosis.

=Comment=:

Obviously, the third possibility is the one I prefer because Polish-French is what Chopin was, but since we must reach consensus, and until the French nationality of Chopin at birth can be verified according to Wikipedia "rules & regulations", I would approve the second one.

--Frania W. (talk) 02:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But we've been there before. "Polish born" is a weird expression that implies - well, we're not sure what it implies, different things to different people, but nothing that will increase a reader's understanding of the facts. Your unilateral statement that "Polish-French is what Chopin was" is - well, it's your unilateral statement - it's supported by some sources, but fails to reflect the general view of the sources (not only Polish ones, by any means) that Chopin was "more" Polish than French. For me, the mention of "Polish-French parentage" (perhaps slightly better would be "French-Polish", or we could write English and say "mixed French and Polish") in the same sentence is quite enough to reflect his Frenchness, since presumably the sources that describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish are doing so on the basis of his parentage. But if it's so important to indicate that not all sources regard him as exclusively Polish, then we should at least find wording (even if slightly awkward) that make it clear that very many of them do - and certainly none of them regard him as exclusively French.--Kotniski (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To me, "Polish born", implies that he was "born a Pole". If you say that I am "French born", no matter where I was born, you are saying that I "am French". In the lead, we want to say what Chopin was exactly, not translate the feeling/opinion of those who said that "Chopin was more Polish than Poland", which is not a nationality, nor can be mentioned on a passport, even a Polish one. Besides, someone with mixed parentage can very well be "more one than the other", which does not keep that person from being the product of both.

--Frania W. (talk) 10:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So if he was born a Pole, then he was a Pole his whole life, right? Your thesis is that he didn't change his nationality in any sense at any point. So what does adding "born" add to the meaning, except to make people think (wrongly) that he ceased to be Polish later on (or, if they interpret the phrase differently, that he wasn't really Polish but just happened to be born in Poland)? And what is this obsession with passports?--Kotniski (talk) 10:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kotniski, Frédéric Chopin's Polish nationality, which was his all his life, has never been in doubt, it is his French nationality that is being denied.

If "Polish", as meaning "Polish national", (and only "Polish", not "Polish born"), is put in first sentence of lead, then "French" has to be right there next to it, because, son of a Frenchman, Chopin was a French national at birth. Were he born today, the same would apply. May I again repeat that others in same or similar case as Chopin have all their nationalities mentioned in first sentence of lead: Einstein, Rubinstein, von Braun, Cortot and many more, too numerous to list here.

There is no "obsession" with passports on my part. In this lengthy discussion, both here & on the article talk page, Chopin's 1837 passport was one of the two pieces (the other being the baptismal record) used by Langavant together with the 1804 Code Napoléon to juridically prove that Frédéric Chopin was born French. The only reason the passport keeps on coming back in the conversation is because you & others keep on asking the same question(s) which I calmy & politely answer all over again each time. So the "obsession" might be on the other side, the side of those who obsessively ask for proof over & over again, then turn down whatever is brought to them.

--Frania W. (talk) 22:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was born Polish and French. His father was also born French. His mother was born Polish and then became Polish-French when she married his father. So Chopin was born to a French father and a Polish-French mother. The best way to make it clear that he was both Polish and French his entire life is to describe him as "Polish-French", not as "Polish-born". Varsovian (talk) 11:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any source that describes his mother as Polish-French?--Kotniski (talk) 11:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Please see above on this page. It would be best if certain editors could understand that constantly re-requesting sources which have already been given is not in the slightest bit helpful to the discussion here or the common goal. Varsovian (talk) 12:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I still can't find it, please can you point it out.--Kotniski (talk) 12:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chopin's mother was 100% Polish and there is no source which would say anything different. The "source" that Varsovian keeps repeating is some French bureaucrat of the time writing something as that "the wife should follow his husband condition", which according to Varsovian's original research means she should be considered "French". De facto that would mean that every women who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman is French, which is absurd. Let's be totally honest here: saying that Chopin's mother was French has as much credibility as saying that Chopin was a bastard, that is zero. The real question is how to consider Chopin's father; since he spent a good part of his life living in Poland, where he adopted the name Mikolaj, he should be considered as French-Polish.  Dr. Loosmark  12:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I disagree with that unless that's how sources refer to him (and I think it's not). --Kotniski (talk) 12:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Emmanuel Langavant, agrégé de droit public, professeur à la faculté de droit de l'université de Lille II, was not a French bureaucrat of the time and reading his work is not original research. But clearly anything which states that Chopin was anything less than 100% Polish will simply be dismissed as 'original research' by editors who are unable to stop their nationalism getting in the way of their objectivity. I do like Loosmark's question about Chopin's father though. Let me use the same logic here: the real question is how to consider Nicolas Chopin's son: since he spent a good part of his life living in France, where he used the name Frédéric François and took up the French passport which was his birth-right, he should be considered as French-Polish. Varsovian (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a source where the professeur says that Chopin's mother was French.  Dr. Loosmark  16:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Loosmark,

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_code

English translation of Code Napoléon:

• http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/c_code.html

TITLE I Chapter I where you will find both the nationality of the child & that of the woman who marries a Frenchman, and YES, paraphrasing you: "every woman who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman was French", at time of the implementation of the 1804 Code Napoléon, which covered the wife of Nicolas Chopin. As for Nicolas Chopin, the fact that he adopted the spelling of his baptismal name in Polish did not make a Polish national out of him; also, he did not change the spelling of his last name, which remained "CHOPIN". And if you think that he did become a Pole, then you should bring proof, such as facsimile of his becoming a Pole, which could be considered original research, but which I would love to see, simplement out of curiosity.

• http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/code/book1/c_title01.html#chapter1

The jurists who wrote the French Civil Code were not "some French bureaucrat(s)", no more than those who wrote the United States Constitution or Law of the United States were "some American bureaucrats". Your antagonism against the French is showing through such statements.

Also, Professeur Emmanuel Langavant is the one who did the OR, not Varsovian nor myself.

And, please, someone explain to me why, in the whole of Wikipedia, only Chopin's French nationality is being put under such hair-splitting scrutiny, while similar cases have never been questioned.

--Frania W. (talk) 23:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You tell us, you're the one who keeps going on and on about it.

Kotniski: the reason "I keep going on and on about it", as you so gentlemanly put it, is because you & others keep on refusing to accept the work done by a French jurist from the 1804 Code Napoléon, and his argumentation explaining why Chopin was born French, while there are articles in Wikipedia that recognise the double nationality of other famous people without giving any source for the statement being made. (Please see above & at Chopin talk page for a short list.)

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The point I keep making is that even if Chopin was a French "national" or "citizen" under French law (and I assume he was), and even if this is confirmed by a reliable source (your self-published professor doesn't count, but I presume there must be one somewhere), this isn't enough to characterize him in the first sentence of the article as half-French.

half-French would not be correct: Chopin was Polish and French, "'à part entière" as the French say, not half & half. Article 10 of the Code in which it said that "a child born outside of France of a Frenchman is French" does not say "half-French".

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The very fact that all the many biographies of Chopin seem to ignore this issue is in itself compelling evidence that people don't care about such legal questions when characterizing someone's nationality.

The many biographies of Chopin are written by musicologists who may not be aware of the fact that Chopin was Polish & French.

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Or at least, not in his case (where as you know perfectly well, the nation that he was brought up among and identified with didn't have its own state or a Napoleon who could lay down laws).

But that is not correct, because "the nation that he was brought up among..." was a nation, the Duchy of Warsaw, created by Napoléon (Treaty of Tilsit, 7 July 1807), and where Napoléon had brought the French Code, which applied to Chopin when he was born.

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to think that because he chose a French passport over a Russian one, that makes him less Polish.

Kotniski! You are putting words in my mouth! I have never written anywhere that Chopin was "less Polish" because he was also French. Please read my previous comments. Chopin was a Pole and a Frenchman. After his arrival in France he had a choice between registering with French authorities as a political refugee, renew his Russian passport & or get a French one to which he had every right since he was French, and he, naturally, chose the passport of his other nationality, instead of registering as a "Polish" political refugee, which he could also have done.)

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Surely you can see how illogical that is (and how insulted Chopin himself might be if he were around to hear it).

How can you say that what I am saying is insulting to Chopin? He came to France on his own free will, got a French passport on his own free will, renewed it several times & never tried to go & live anywhere else than in France. So, why would he be insulted if I were to tell him that he was also French since he himself accepted that fact, lived for eighteen years in France and is buried there on his own free will?

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He had a French father, that's undeniable, and that ought to be made clear right from the start.

Yes, he had a French father, and that made him automatically French!

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But to insist in addition to that that we go with the minority of the reliable sources that describe him as French-Polish rather than the majority that have him as Polish can only be explained as a desire to push what is a very obviously personal point of view.--Kotniski (talk) 06:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am not moved by "the desire to push what is a very obviously personal point of view", I am pushed by the desire of having the truth eventually recognised that Frédéric François Chopin was born both French and Polish, which I am not advancing through a "personal point of view", but by my knowledge of French law, both now & at time of Chopin's birth. The majority can be wrong; it also can often be described a flock of sheep that blindly follow a leader into a ravine.

--Frania W. (talk) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No-one is "right" or "wrong" about this - in a sense he was French, in a sense he was Polish, in a sense he was Duchy or Warsaw-ish (you must surely know that that wasn't what I meant by a "nation"), in a sense he was probably Russian and German too, but the question is how to best characterize him in the lead - what information to give to readers without misleading them, but at the same time without giving undue weight to non-essential facts that belong somewhere in the detail of the article. Wikipedia doesn't serve the purpose you seem to want it to - it isn't supposed to create new narratives, just reflect what reliable published sources say, and where those sources disagree, reflect that disagreement and the relative prominence of the various views. I believe that on the nationality issue this is best done by saying either that he was Polish but (in the same sentence) that one of his parents was French; or by stating explicitly (e.g. through a parenthetical) that though he is most generally described as Polish, there are also sources who have him as Polish-French. Your attachment to the importance of the legal sense (only one of many senses) of nationality is one that the sources don't reflect, so it would be wrong for Wikipedia to reflect it just to satisfy the variously-motivated desires of a few editors. --Kotniski (talk) 07:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have said your piece & I have said mine, and I am left with the feeling that the opposition to recognise what I have brought to this discussion is not that it is not "wikipediable", but that I have struck the most sensitive nerve of the Polish Resistance at having Frédéric François Chopin be anything but Polish. As I pointed out, in several cases no one seems to care if a second nationality is given the subject of an article - no source given, no question asked. Chopin is the only one being denied a nationality that was his at birth. I am wondering what "variously-motivated desires" Encyclopædia Britannica had "to satisfy" when it gave Chopin as "Polish-French".

• The Encyclopædia Britannica (Latin for "British Encyclopaedia") is a general English-language encyclopaedia published by Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., a privately held company. Articles are aimed at educated adults, and written by about 100 full-time editors and more than 4,000 expert contributors. It is regarded as the most scholarly of encyclopaedias.

--Frania W. (talk) 22:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]