Apollo The Logician (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

Populated account categories: confirmed · suspected

11 February 2021

– This SPI case is open.

Suspected sockpuppets

• PailSimon (talk⁺ · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · spi block · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• Tools: Editor interaction utility • Interaction Timeline • User compare report Auto-generated every hour.

Same (far-)left POV and exclusive focus on authoritarian left-wing regimes, the IRA and other "Tankie" topics. I'm comparing to Jorge1777 because that one is a recently active sock with a good number of edits.

• Good amount of overlap:[1], and some more with suspected sock SpaceSandwich.

• Note the sequential editing here.

• "Per source" in edit summaries

• Jorge1777: [2][3][4]
• PailSimon: [5][6][7][8]

• Adressing others as "My friend"

• JorgeJorge, PailSimon

• Invoking and wikilinking BRD in edit summaries:

• Pailsimon [9][10], Jorge1777: [11]. Blablubbs|talk 20:35, 11 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

diff fixed per comment below. Blablubbs|talk 19:23, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will add more as soon as I have time, but just noting that both Lori Mattix and Hu Xijin, on which Jorge and PailSimon overlap are fairly low-edit count articles. Note the insertion of language that casts doubt on Mattix' assertions here vs here. Blablubbs|talk 02:39, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As another addendum, yeah, "IRA" was the wrong word there – "Ireland-related" would have been more fitting. Blablubbs|talk 02:47, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, since people have indirectly asked for more evidence:

• There's overlap with the master too, with both having a liking for Talk: Fine Gael.
• Forgetting to space signatures. See here vs [12][13].
• Consistently saying "Gain a consensus" in that exact way, as opposed to e.g. "gain consensus".

• Simon: [14][15][16]
• Jorge: [17][18][19]
• Apollo: [20][21]

I don't think it's all that productive to discuss what the most apt description of the POV that's being advanced (or the topic complex that's being edited) is – it's certainly similar. Blablubbs|talk 09:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by other users

Accused parties may also comment/discuss in this section below. See Defending yourself against claims.

•  Comment: If it helps, I'll add and remind that one of the confirmed sockpuppets was Simon1811. With ApolloCarmb, there's already the precedent of having similar usernames, regardless of the obviousness. Both accounts also start edit summaries in low caps, something also common in previous sockpuppets. --NoonIcarus (talk) 01:26, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. "Far-left POV" I would be interested to see some evidence for this.
2. "exclusive focus on authoritarian left-wing regimes, the IRA and other "Tankie" topics." This is demonstrably false that I have an "exclusive focus" on far left authoritarian regimes, I have edited international politics articles and so inevitably edited left-wing authoritarian regime articles as a result of this but to say I have an "exclusive focus" can be debunked by trawling through my user contributions. To add to this I believe I have made one single edit to an IRA article so I have no idea how this can be construed as a "focus".
3. "Good amount of overlap" I am not sure how a handful of articles can be considered "good amount of overlap".
4. ""Per source" in edit summaries" The phrase "per source" is hardly some unique mannerism. Its a fairly standard and rudimentary phrase.
5. "Adressing others as "My friend"" The Jorge edit you provided is actually an edit of mine so I think you made a mistake here. Edit I now see that he has corrected the mistake. I feel like a lot of this report is "These two editors have some similar mannerisms that are fairly common mannerisms so they must be the same".
6. "Invoking and wikilinking BRD in edit summaries:" Well again, as I said above in response to the "per source" observation, linking and quoting BRD is hardly a unique practice, in fact it is fairly widespread from what I can gather.
7. To respond to @NoonIcarus:: My name is play on the musician Paul Simon and starting edit summaries with low caps is not a particularly unique mannerism.PailSimon (talk) 19:19, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I may PailSimon the similarity is not that both accounts use BRD its that both accounts misuse BRD in the same way. Both you and the linked sock use BRD to justify edit warring instead of actually following BRD. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:31, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what the report is saying, that's your personal interpretation and an amusing one at that. Your inability to understand BRD is well established through your own block log history.PailSimon (talk) 19:44, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was once briefly blocked for feuding with a user who turned out to be a sock, what about that is BRD related? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also a BRD related block isn't possible, its a purely optional procedure. But please continue to tell us how both you and the sock apparently have the exact same obscure mistaken understanding about what BRD is. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:51, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It was a two week block in fact. It was for edit warring/feuding (the latter especially demonstrates your lack of credibility on this matter given your tendency to create a personal nemesis for yourself of which I have recently fallen victim to). You can keep mindlessly repeating that I do not understand BRD but until you substantiate that claim it means nothing.PailSimon (talk) 20:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring is not among the words used by the admin. Let me be clear: You can't revert someone who reverts you and say “stick to BRD” its simply illogical both because following BRD isn’t required and because BRD is already impossible at that point by definition. This is not a common misunderstanding, yet its one that both you and that confirmed sock have made over and over again. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:33, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What you fail to understand is that BRD encourages you (the edit warrior) to discuss instead of reverting. Thats the whole point of mentioning it. There's of course the relevant section which states "Once discussion has begun, restoring one's original edit without taking other users' concerns into account may be seen as disruptive. These so-called "re-reverts" are uncollaborative and could incur sanctions such as a block." Its not at all erroneous to point this quote out to the offender (you).PailSimon (talk) 23:10, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I’m not in any of the diffs presented so far. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I know but it applies to you as well as to the users in the presented diffs.PailSimon (talk) 23:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I get it now, everyone is edit warring but you. See you later alligator! Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well now you're putting words in my mouth.PailSimon (talk) 23:30, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• "As another addendum, yeah, "IRA" was the wrong word there – "Ireland-related" would have been more fitting" - I believe I have edited about three Ireland articles (hardly a focus) which is to be expected as I edit international articles. I have edited articles on many countries ranging from the UK to China to America to Russia and beyond. PailSimon (talk) 03:14, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of these "similarities" are just incredible reaches. I have used the phrase "gain a consensus" and so has the other individual? Really? Things like this show that the filer is so desperate for evidence that they have to reach to such extreme lengths for "evidence". Perhaps a "Check User" would clear my name? PailSimon (talk) 09:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Checkuser can't provide exculpatory evidence and has proven ineffective in recent filings of this case because the master is on proxies. The standard here isn't "is called something like "Apollo The Logician returns and makes the exact same edits", the standard is "are these two users similar enough to make it highly unlikely that they are distinct individuals". Luckily for the both of us, I don't have to convince you, I have to convince clerks and patrolling admins. By the way, leaving aggressive comments at SPI that say stuff about editing habits being common and/or the evidence sucking and/or the filer being an idiot who's out to get you also vaguely reminds me of something. [22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29] Blablubbs|talk 10:11, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. Well If a 'Check User' is carried out you shall find that I do not in fact use proxy IP addresses. The fact that I'm not usigg them would be further evidence that I am not said individual.
2. "By the way, leaving aggressive comments at SPI that say stuff about editing habits being common and/or the evidence sucking and/or the filer being an idiot who's out to get you also vaguely reminds me of something." I don't know what I have said that could be considered "aggressive" but if I have come off that way it is unintentional. I have never called you an idiot and I have never said that you're "out to get me" so I have no idea where you're drawing these bizarre conclusions from.
3. "Say stuff about editing habits being common and/or the evidence sucking" I mean what am I supposed to do here? Not defend myself? Yes an editor accused of sock puppetry is going to critique your claim that we have uniquely similar editing patterns. I don't understand what you're trying to say here or expecting of me. PailSimon (talk) 12:49, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"with both having a liking for Talk: Fine Gael." - I believe I have engaged in one single talk page discussion on said page, this hardly amounts to a "liking". Once again I would stress that I edit international politics articles, I have edited political articles related to every continent in the world. The fact that I have very tangentially edited an Irish political article is a natural consequence of that. Just as the fact that I have edited Ugandan political articles, Hong Kong political articles, Thai political articles, Myanmar political articles, Iraqi political articles (and so on goes the list) is also a natural consequence of that. PailSimon (talk) 10:03, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• If further behavior similarities are sought, I'll point out that both users have carried out talk page blanking: [30][31][32][33][34][35], another common pattern in previous socks. --NoonIcarus (talk) 11:54, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

NoonIcarus has themselves removed talk page messages 1 2, as has Horse Eye's Back 1 2. Hell even the original filer has 1 2 so I don't see this as having any weight here. PailSimon (talk) 10:46, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@NoonIcarus: is that an outing attempt I see in that second to last diff? That looks to be rather serious. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:57, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye's Back: How come? The section about the journalist? --NoonIcarus (talk) 09:23, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yep thats the one, [36][37]. You can’t out non-obvious accounts like that, and its not even clear they’re right. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. If needed, an oversight could remove said diffs. In any case, the diffs also show a history of edit warring that should be considered. --NoonIcarus (talk) 20:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I am convinced. Not only that thing with "a", but the content of specific edits and the manner of making highly questionable and contentious changes, while also following other contributors, indicate this is probably the same person. Also, there is a subject overlap. My very best wishes (talk) 23:08, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk, CheckUser, and/or patrolling admin comments

• As far as behavioural evidence go, this is a weak report. El_C 02:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, the Lori Mattix edits do give me pause. El_C 06:02, 13 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]